78 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

475 Parody --Click here to view--

I thought that it was funny...

The lovechild of Deidara's hand and Itachi's acting XD

Snort! that was great!

Another funny observation you can make from this chapter:
Danzo 8 Orochimaru 0. Somewhere Orochimaru's spirit is howling in impotent fury.

[RedDelicious]

I was in love with two guys at once back in college. It's a bad idea to read too much of your personal experiences into something written by someone who's never even met you especially when the much of the fictional context doesn't fit at all.

The question is:
a) Did you decide to kill one of those college guys (for acting loopy)?
b) How did the assassination attempt turn out?

If you tell us (b), then we'll have a better spoiler for the chapters ahead.

[Derock]

The question is:
a) Did you decide to kill one of those college guys (for acting loopy)?
b) How did the assassination attempt turn out?

If you tell us (b), then we'll have a better spoiler for the chapters ahead.

Let's not and just stick to the topic please.

[EarthBorn]

Danzou has a sharingan arm???


I'm sure that Sasuke will get his - I'm-an-Uchiha-My-Eyes-Are-Better-Than-Yours attitude blacked out here. Interestingly, I hope that Sakura doesn't butt into this fight. It really needs to end.

[manny123]

Naruto's confused trying to take in that she loves him but still has feelings for who Sasuke was, and because of that she's going to kill Sasuke before he loses his last trace of humanity.

Naruto also says "She likes Sasuke so much" which brings me to believe that Naruto still believes that Sakura loves Sasuke more than anyone else (Naruto included). So I still can't agree with the idea of Naruto thinking that Sakura loves him or at most loves him more than Sasuke.

[James S Cassidy]

I was in love with two guys at once back in college. It's a bad idea to read too much of your personal experiences into something written by someone who's never even met you especially when the much of the fictional context doesn't fit at all.

Really?

I'd think that in order for a writer to portray something that seems real, you have to look at real events as an example. True, this is a fictional world, but the more real you make your characters in terms of emotional effect, the better the characters get. More the believable they get.

For example, I am publishing a book right now and many of the events of my book are based of my own experiences. It's not a biography, but many can relate to it because they are real. This is probably another reason why most people think NaruSaku is more believable because it is more real than any other pairing. It adds in the angst that teens have, it adds in the troubles of the heart and what is the right choice. Hinata and Naruto seem like a fairy tale love with Naruto being the knight in shinning armor and Hinata being the damsel in distress. A love that is too good to be true kind of thing and is lame based on our standards now. It's not that simple and would seem almost fake in today's generation.

SasuSaku also sounds fake because a guy like Sasuke would never turn so dramatically like that and no in real life the bad boy doesn't become the goo guy from one moment being with the girl who loves him.

Again, I know it is a fictional world, but that doesn't mean everything is fake and somethings can be based on real events. Hideki Anno based Evangelion around his own personal thoughts and some real life events. So it is not unheard of for an mangaka to do this.

We all take into account that the teen angst changes from generation to generation. The Jiraiya's, Tsunade's, and Orochimaru's generation is not the same as Naruto's generation. You also have different circumstances, different times. It's like comparing the WWII generation to the now generation.

My mom does this to me too. She tries to coach me on getting a girlfriend, but doesn't really understand that things changed since last generation.

Since Naruto is about the generation now surpassing the last one, this topic fits well. Naruto is faced with similar if not identical problems of the last generation, but this time he does hold the answers because of what he has learned from the past generations.

Both Jiraiya and Naruto were in love with their female teammates (Tsunade and Sakura) who both are hot headed, but mean well. We find out Tsunade actually loved Jiraiya but Jiraiya failed to be with her despite him being in love with her. Naruto is in love with Sakura, but where Jiraiya failed Naruto will succeed. Jiraiya's best friend Orochimaru turned evil and has failed to save him. Naruto's best friend Sasuke also turned evil and again might be able to save him.

I am guessing you are far older than me, but believe me when I say. This generation is nothing like the last generation and has changed greatly. This shows as well in Naruto because Naruto's generation greatly reflects the one we are in now respectfully.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 December 2009 - 05:42 AM.

[ciardha]

I am guessing you are far older than me, but believe me when I say. This generation is nothing like the last generation and has changed greatly.

Ah, but Kishimoto is only 8 years younger than me, so although he's a Japanese man, he's writing from really close to my generational perspective. His respect for female characters and downplaying the female fan service is more like what I see from western writers of my age range than those older or younger. Also the very serious look at how do bring about lasting peace in the world and wanting to make it happen, not just dreaming about it has more the color of GenX than Millennials writing, because of the different world we grew up in. Kishimoto, like me, grew up during the Cold War and that comes through in his writing Naruto. To Kishimoto and my generation, WWII was something our grandparents generation fought in, WWI something our great grandparents fought in, the Vietnam War happened when we were quite young (I was 9 when Saigon fell, Kishimoto was 1, it started years before either of us were born) but as children growing up we saw the lasting effect that war had around the world. Kishimoto is attempting to write a younger generation but it's really colored by being of a generation that grew up under the later Cold War. Naruto=Kishimoto, but also Shikaku=Kishimoto, Minato=Kishimoto, etc...

One Piece and Soul Eater, to me, seems to reflect the current young generation far more than Naruto does. Look at Narutofan, look at all the complaints by readers whining about the manga and going on and on about how much better One Piece is, etc... I've even seen a fair number of people even here complaining about the serious theme about peace- hating the Naruto and Nagato peace discussion.

It really resonated with me- it was like stepping back to the late 80's, trying to figure out how we could end fighting, dealing with cynical baby boomers jaded because dreaming of peace didn't make it happen, and people of my parents generation feeling hopeless about peace ever happening. (They'd seen WWII as children, the Korean War as young adults, and the Vietnam War as young parents, and were old enough that they'd lived through and remembered the whole Cold War), and the powerful politicians of the time had been adults during WWII and were set in a militaristic mindset (Danzo makes me think of that generation's mindset, Jiraiya's of my parents, and Nagato's of the Baby Boomers)

It's great though that Kishimoto has suceeded in making it resonate for you, making it feel like it's of your generation- that's a sign of a great writer who can make young adult characters seem to belong to whatever generation the reader belongs to. Baby boomers I'm sure would see things that would resonate with them too, especially in part 2 of the manga. Maybe even my parents generation who were young kids during WWII. Hmm maybe I'll send a link to my dad of some of the deeper more philosophical chapters and see... I think he'd be surprised that a "kids comic" was dealing with so serious a subject. (Although he's always liked Doonesbury, but that's written for adults- I loved it even as a kid though- and I "got it" too. I liked MASH much better when it got deeper and more overtly political too, and I was still a kid when it did that.)

Edited by ciardha, 12 December 2009 - 05:22 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

So, Madara's sharingan 'collects' unique abilities.... Hrm, considering it's a sharingan, it's possible that this teleportation power may or may not have been one of the powers he's accumulated during his unnaturally long life. It seems like a more vicious form of the Sharingan's copy cat ability. Those boxes in his mindscape? hammerspace? may contain....people??

[ciardha]

The question is:
a) Did you decide to kill one of those college guys (for acting loopy)?
b) How did the assassination attempt turn out?

If you tell us (b), then we'll have a better spoiler for the chapters ahead.

Like I said, it's a good idea not to read your personal experiences too much into the manga. The two guys had very vague personality similarities to Naruto and Sasuke, moreso the more Naruto like guy- who I did fall for second and who actually became my most serious college boyfriend. The other guy was just more Alphaish and popular amongst the women in the student organization we were both in and even won a seat on the university student council, he was the more attractive of the two guys as well.

Edited by ciardha, 12 December 2009 - 05:16 PM.

[Merger Knight]

I still think there is a huge difference between not believing that Sakura would love him (which comes from lack of self-esteem) versus thinking that Sakura is lying. Naruto trusts her, so I don't think it is the later.

Does he still think maybe he doesn't compare to himin her mind or something?

Despite mastering the rasengan, becoming a sage, and being a hero to the village, the 90% of his life where everyone (including Hinata) referred to him as a "loser" would be hard on his self-esteem.

When in the Manga or Anime did she call him that. I thought she fainted at his every word?

[TwilightLink20xx]

Does he still think maybe he doesn't compare to him in her mind or something?

We don't know for sure, but I'm putting my money on yes. Naruto is stuck in the past, stuck in Team 7. As far as he knows, it will ALWAYS be that way. At least until he grows up and realizes that things can NEVER be the same.

When in the Manga or Anime did she call him that. I thought she fainted at his every word?

It never happens, but it's implied that the entire village, save Iruka and the 3rd Hokage almost universally hate Naruto at the beginning of the series.

[RedDelicious]

When in the Manga or Anime did she call him that. I thought she fainted at his every word?

You had me wondering if this was something I read from the manga, or from a fans description of the manga.

Fortunately, I found one of Mizura's essays on Hinata. (The essay is about how Hinata found the inner strength to improve herself, largely without help.) I don't recall which chapter it was, but Hinata does talk to Naruto before the chunin exam finals. She states:
"Even when you always fail... In my eyes... you're a proud failure!"

It is meant in a good way (that he isn't perfect, but he overcomes that). But it still brings up the point that, up to the chunin exams, almost everyone (including Hinata) thought he "always fail(s)". (So I was wrong to say "loser", I should have said "failure". Which isn't much better.)

Edit: Aha, chapter 98. Naruto lets his guard down with Hinata, saying "... I act all tough because I'm so frustrated from always failing."

Edited by RedDelicious, 13 December 2009 - 05:41 AM.

[ciardha]

Naruto also says "She likes Sasuke so much" which brings me to believe that Naruto still believes that Sakura loves Sasuke more than anyone else (Naruto included). So I still can't agree with the idea of Naruto thinking that Sakura loves him or at most loves him more than Sasuke.

But remember what happened at end of that sequence? Naruto's mental image of Team 7 shattered. He's confused and has sort of taken in that Sakura loves him while still having feelings for who Sasuke was, and cares enough that she is going to take down the monster he's become before all shreds of his humanity is gone. He is struggling to put all this together. To see Sakura as the young woman she really is and deal with the reality of the monster Sasuke has become. He's literally frozen in place trying to understand it all.

[TwilightLink20xx]

I'd say you're jumping the gun a bit, Ciardha. I don't think Naruto's even thinking about the confession right now, at least not directly. Right now, he needs to focus on clearing up that Team 7 is gone and that Sasuke has chosen the darker path. I think he will see and understand who and what Sakura has become when they have their next encounter, though, so it won't be long before he realizes exactly what you are saying.

[manny123]

But remember what happened at end of that sequence? Naruto's mental image of Team 7 shattered. He's confused and has sort of taken in that Sakura loves him while still having feelings for who Sasuke was, and cares enough that she is going to take down the monster he's become before all shreds of his humanity is gone. He is struggling to put all this together. To see Sakura as the young woman she really is and deal with the reality of the monster Sasuke has become. He's literally frozen in place trying to understand it all.

I guess that's what you have absorbed from that image but I can't really see how a shattered image of team 7 implies Naruto's realization for Sakura's feelings for him...
I think that image was purely intended to give the reader a view of how Naruto's dream of team 7 reuniting has been crumbled and now he is having to deal with fact that they are most likely never going to be a team again.
Not that I don't agree Sakura has deep feelings for Naruto, I just don't believe Naruto has realized it yet.

[ciardha]

I'd say you're jumping the gun a bit, Ciardha. I don't think Naruto's even thinking about the confession right now, at least not directly.

No, I think he is thinking of it too, thus the only time he thinks of Sakura as she really is when Sai says Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and confessed her love for Naruto, that her only thoughts were of Naruto and Sai believed Naruto knew that. He has started to wrap his mind around that part of it- that Sakura while she still has feelings for who Sasuke was, she has fallen in love with Naruto. It's giving up on saving Sasuke and killing him that Naruto can't wrap his head around- wrapping his mind around the idea of killing someone you care deeply about because they've become a monster.

Naruto takes in what Sai says about Sakura's feelings for him with the least resistance, it's her choice to kill Sasuke and why that is overwhelming him, then when Gaara speaks about Sasuke and reinforces Sakura's decision, urging Naruto to make that choice Naruto gets mad and shoves Gaara's gentle hand on his shoulder away.

Edited by ciardha, 13 December 2009 - 08:07 PM.

[Merger Knight]

We don't know for sure, but I'm putting my money on yes. Naruto is stuck in the past, stuck in Team 7. As far as he knows, it will ALWAYS be that way. At least until he grows up and realizes that things can NEVER be the same.

I think the realization is finally catching up tp him, maybe.

You had me wondering if this was something I read from the manga, or from a fans description of the manga.

Fortunately, I found one of Mizura's essays on Hinata. (The essay is about how Hinata found the inner strength to improve herself, largely without help.) I don't recall which chapter it was, but Hinata does talk to Naruto before the chunin exam finals. She states:
"Even when you always fail... In my eyes... you're a proud failure!"

It is meant in a good way (that he isn't perfect, but he overcomes that). But it still brings up the point that, up to the chunin exams, almost everyone (including Hinata) thought he "always fail(s)". (So I was wrong to say "loser", I should have said "failure". Which isn't much better.)

Edit: Aha, chapter 98. Naruto lets his guard down with Hinata, saying "... I act all tough because I'm so frustrated from always failing."

Ok, i thought you meant she just called him an idiot or loser to his face or something rude like.

[RedDelicious]

Ok, i thought you meant she just called him an idiot or loser to his face or something rude like.

Yah, I had that feeling after you posed the question, and could see how my original post could imply that.

I just think that the people, who think that Hinata completely understands and supports Naruto, haven't realized the self-doubt that would be reinforced by telling someone "you don't have to be afraid when you fail again".

Contrast that with Sakura (before the chunin fight with Kiba). She still has mixed feelings about Naruto, but the first thing she says is "Don't lose to those guys, Naruto!!! ... You should be worried about yourself. If you lose here you're not a man. How will you be able to face Sasuke-kun?" Harsh words, but then she flashes him a smile to show that she is getting him psyched up for the fight, that she doesn't expect another failure. After Kiba gets that first hit in, everyone thinks that Naruto is out for the count. Sakura and Kakashi exchange a glance, and even before Naruto has gotten back up, Sakura knows (and is eager to hear) that he will say the words that she used to make fun of: "Don't underestimate me!"

I guess I am getting off-topic.
For the Sasuke-Danzo fight, it doesn't matter who loses as long as Madara smacks both of them around some more.

[Merger Knight]

Yah, I had that feeling after you posed the question, and could see how my original post could imply that.

I just think that the people, who think that Hinata completely understands and supports Naruto, haven't realized the self-doubt that would be reinforced by telling someone "you don't have to be afraid when you fail again".

Contrast that with Sakura (before the chunin fight with Kiba). She still has mixed feelings about Naruto, but the first thing she says is "Don't lose to those guys, Naruto!!! ... You should be worried about yourself. If you lose here you're not a man. How will you be able to face Sasuke-kun?" Harsh words, but then she flashes him a smile to show that she is getting him psyched up for the fight, that she doesn't expect another failure. After Kiba gets that first hit in, everyone thinks that Naruto is out for the count. Sakura and Kakashi exchange a glance, and even before Naruto has gotten back up, Sakura knows (and is eager to hear) that he will say the words that she used to make fun of: "Don't underestimate me!"

of course almost all of that gen had problems.

Naruto was degraed cause of the fox.

Sasuke was alone cause of the killing

Sakura was made fun of cause of her forhead

Lee had no Ninjutsu or gen

Hinati had her problem

and Neji was a Branchy

I guess I am getting off-topic.
For the Sasuke-Danzo fight, it doesn't matter who loses as long as Madara smacks both of them around some more.

I wounder if the group that is after Sasuke will catch up with him after the Danzo/Sasuke fight is over or during it.

Were all Ten or 11 or 12 of the ganf after Sasuke or just some of them?

[RedDelicious]

I wounder if the group that is after Sasuke will catch up with him after the Danzo/Sasuke fight is over or during it.

Were all Ten or 11 or 12 of the ganf after Sasuke or just some of them?

Good point. Kiba is actively searching for Sasuke now. With all that blood and sweat from
the kage fights, Kiba will probably find stinky boy fairly quickly (unless Madara pops him
back in the mask).

I had not considered that their team might run across Sasuke/Madara/Danzou so soon.
That would be very, very bad for Sakura's health.