76 replies to this topic

[Kamina-Yoshi]

Or just Chuck Norris...

Nah. All of them are worth 1,000,000 Chucks each, easily.

But anyways, I can't wait for Sasuke's strokejob next move.

[True]

He worked his ass off with Orochimaru? Even if he did, that is not exactly the power he's throwing around now is he? Black flames from Itachi that he could suddenly control, the statue that came out of nowhere that he never trained for, and about every other Sharingan jutsu that 'just happens'. I think we've seen him train maybe once in part 1? Other then that everything Sasuke had done just appears for the sake of making him stronger.

Sasuke has constantly trained ever since he was a young boy as we see him trying to impress his father and not be in Itachi's shadow. He trained and didn't gain his Sharingan until the Wave arc in which then he went under the tutelage of Kakashi while Naruto went under Jiraiya. The only external boost he got was from the Curse Seal drug. When Naruto/Sasuke both came back from their two and a half year training trip who looked like the person who actually spent time training. The guy who takes out over a thousand shinobi or the one who killed an Itachi clone?

Narutos FSR and Sage training was all showcased in part 2 and at most he spent a month on it. So it's alright if Naruto can fully master sage training which Jiraiya still couldn't do in all his lifetime, but he does in a week and its perfectly fine. But oh no! Sasuke who already mastered the three tomoe Sharingan after a few years can't possibly utilize it better after using it against Kribai in the fight and having a couple days to train. He also happens to be a genius and thus a faster learner. It's like a physics project where your professor gives you tooth picks, paper, and glue to construct a structure that will hold the weight of a cement block. Sasuke being high in intelligence will figure it out fast and construct it perfectly; the analogy applies similarly to the use of the MS. Don't blame Sasuke, blame Kishi's horrible power scaling.

On the other hand we constantly see Naruto training for everything he gets. Some he can't even use, but trained hard for regardless. AND has totally mastered what he did train for. Naruto's skill with his jutsu > Sasuke's

Sasuke has created five various forms of Chidori:
-Chidori
-Chidori Eisou
-Chidori Nagashi
-Chidori Senbon
-Kirin

Naruto has three various forms of Rasengan:
-Rasengan
-Oodama Rengan
-Rasen Shuriken

Who is more skilled at jutsu. The one who can utilize it for different tactics and situations, or one that only gets bigger and more bang? Sasuke has a larger arsenal of jutsu to choose from then Naruto even without his Sharingan and has showed his capability to further improve upon them with technique.

The power of love always seemed to drive the heroes, not actually give them some higher power.

The power of love defeated the Devil Gundam and saved the Earth

1 --Click here to view--

The power of love defeated the Anti-Spirals and saved the universe. (cant find sub...so stuck with crappy dub)

2 --Click here to view--

Even in Naruto the power of love is exampled in Sandiame's death.

3 --Click here to view--

Power of love = Will of Fire

So sasuke can supress Kyubi. So what?
Naruto isnt the Kyubi and has never been defined by Kyubi. Hes defined by Never giving up and always overcoming his problems no matter what.

• Haku fight - Naruto relied on the Kyuubi
• Neji fight - Once again relied on the Kyuubi
• Gaara fight - Uses Kyuubi for summoning
• Sasuke fight - Goes one tail
• Orochimaru fight- Goes four tails
• Kakuzu fight - has Kyuubi eyes
• Pain fight - Goes eight tails

[Freakazoid]

So, Sasuke > Naruto in everywhere except love, so Naruto will beat him? Yeah.... if this is the turn of events, screw this manga. Plenty of other mangas I could read if I wanted an endless group wank for one character.

[True]

Yes. It's fiction and the themes that drive characters is what puts them over the edge in battle. No matter the technical ability of a character it isn't as important as the themes they encompass. Naruto may be weaker than Sasuke but he has a bigger heart. It's not like their future fight will be a curb stomp in favor of one or the other character. it will be an even tie when both are at their ends and the themes that both character's represent will be the deciding factor.

Sasuke uses hate, Naruto uses love. Which one will over come?

[Freakazoid]

A big boredom fest.

[RyrineaHaruno]

I actually like Character driven characters in Shoene Manga. I like it, when they do have something to fight for rather than mindless fighting like in Dbz.

[Mik3]

Naruto may have gone 8 tails, but he reverted back to sage mode to beat Pain. And none of that Pain wasn't at full strength crap.I do agree the will of fire plays into the manga alot, but its not liek Naruto is going to defeat sasuke suddenly, because hes a nice guy. "Sasuke u iz a jerk, so iz beat yous nao."

Give naruto more credit than that.

I actually like Character driven characters in Shoene Manga. I like it, when they do have something to fight for rather than mindless fighting like in Dbz.

Why all this crap about DBZ? DBZ has nothing to do with naruto, bleach etc. I can never understand why people always want to break down DBZ like that. And im not trying to sinle you out either. So my bad if you take it that way.

Edited by Mik3, 23 September 2009 - 09:02 PM.

[Freakazoid]

Naruto may have gone 8 tails, but he reverted back to sage mode to beat Pain. And none of that Pain wasn't at full strength crap.I do agree the will of fire plays into the manga alot, but its not liek Naruto is going to defeat sasuke suddenly, because hes a nice guy. "Sasuke u iz a jerk, so iz beat yous nao."

Give naruto more credit than that.





Why all this crap about DBZ? DBZ has nothing to do with naruto, bleach etc. I can never understand why people always want to break down DBZ like that. And im not trying to sinle you out either. So my bad if you take it that way.

No man, it's true! The only thing Naruto has going for him is the power of love.

FLOWER POWER WILL BRING PEACE TO THE NINJA WORLD(because clearly Naruto can't fight Sasuke without it ).

[ShadowWolf]

Why all this crap about DBZ? DBZ has nothing to do with naruto, bleach etc. I can never understand why people always want to break down DBZ like that.

Gohan beat Cell with the power of love

But there is a certain point where you have to stop and ask yourself:

Are you ****ing serious?

Yes, screw the technicalities! Naruto wins anyway just because he's the good guy.
And...Err....Let's call it the power of love! Because that's how everyone defeats their enemies these days!

Anyway, I'm really tired of this happening:

[ciardha]

Well, you're forgetting about Hinata, she's a woman in 'Naruto' with a kekkei genkai (the byakugan).

Anyways, since I'm a major feminist I'll just say that I WANT the Mizukage to kick Sasuke's a**. But of course, knowing Kishimoto, that isn't likely to happen, fot my displeaser

And don't be so quick to think she'll fail. Temari beat Tayuya who had pretty much trashed Shikamaru, Tsunade beat Orochimaru with one punch in the manga (anime added more of Tsunade thrashing Orochimaru for viewers excitement, but in canon all it took was one punch to win), Sakura winning over Sasori, Sakura taking down the giant centepede with one punch that even male Jonin ninja were fleeing from in terror (also Sakura > rock, heh), and Karui being just as badass a fighter as Omoi. Plus we know the Fifth Mizukage has already beaten the Fourth Mizukage who was a jinchuriki. I'm a feminist (and been one for over 35 years) and I have no problem with how Kishimoto has written the female characters at all. He has a lot more a profeminist approach than just about any male writer East or West. Female characters whooping ass means absolutely nothing if otherwise they are treated as male sex fantasy objects. It's merely part of the fetish. The way female character act in Naruto- especially in part 2 is the about the closest to realistic I've seen any male writer do in all the years I've been a geek in many different fandoms. And the way he does so little fan serving of the female characters is practically unheard of in shonen manga. He also shows how disgusted female characters are at male pervertedness and that the female characters are right to be disgusted.

I'm betting the Mizukage is going to be a lot harder for Sasuke to counter than the Raikage. The Muzukage isn't in a homicidal rage, she's quite calm, much more interested in humbling Sasuke than killing him, while Sasuke is crazed with vengence- calmer fighter has the advantage. And if she starts winning over him Sasuke is going to get even more enraged so even more out of control. The Mizukage just might win since her aim isn't to kill unthinkingly.

[RedDelicious]

So Danzou is using "Plot Running Away No Jutsu"!

Hey, it worked for Sasuke versus the two Kages.

(Hmm... I'm still in a Monty Python mood...)
Brave Sasuke ran away.
Bravely ran away away.
When Raikage reared his ugly head,
Sasuke bravely summoned Susano-o and fled.
Yes, brave Sasuke turned about
Grabbed Karin before he chickened out.
Swiftly taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
Bravest of the braaaave, Sasuke Uchiha!

[Cloud]

I actually like Character driven characters in Shoene Manga.

WUT.

[RyrineaHaruno]

I like "Character driven stories" excuse me, I have a slight head cold so forgive me please.

[dl316bh]

Power of love = Will of Fire

You also forgot that it equals one of the most boring and overused tropes in manga.

ShadowWolf pretty much nailed it. At some point it just doesn't cut it. It feels like the easy way out you take when you've literally written yourself into a corner with your characters.

I'm a feminist (and been one for over 35 years)

Not one of the anti-man kind, I hope. I hve to admit those sort of feminists have quite literally turned me off of the whole issue. And I'm all for equality.

[RyrineaHaruno]

^ I am all for equal rights type of Feminist.


I agree, that it feels like the easy way out sometimes.

[ciardha]

You also forgot that it equals one of the most boring and overused tropes in manga.

ShadowWolf pretty much nailed it. At some point it just doesn't cut it. It feels like the easy way out you take when you've literally written yourself into a corner with your characters.


Not one of the anti-man kind, I hope. I hve to admit those sort of feminists have quite literally turned me off of the whole issue. And I'm all for equality.

Just sexist men who make that statement. Kishimoto's been talking about strong feminist women for 10 years. Don't make that statement- it's as revealing of misogyny as KKK member in a white hood is of racism. Think about these women you casually call "anti-man" being like Tsunade, Sakura, Temari, Chiyo, Yoshino, etc... That's what those women you labeled are like personality wise, not "man-haters" but women who refuse to tolerate men who don't treat them with the same respect they'd give to other men and treat women like their personal sex toys. I am a feminist and do not compromise on that. If a man has genuine respect for me and sees me as an equal human being he's not going to throw a fit when I speak my mind on feminist issues- he's going to acknowledge I know more about that than he ever could and be want to know how to treat women more as equals not just from me, but from reading feminist books and taking the words to heart. It's clear Masashi Kishimoto is a man like that. That kind of guy is someone I like. My boyfriends were like that. My male best friend is like that and we've been friends for 23 years. John Lennon choose to become that way when he fell in love with Yoko Ono.

And on the other plot point, you'll discover eventually this plotline is used so much because that's how hostility truly ends in the real world. You give up on hate and vengeance and talk to each other, not as friends but as people willing to listen to the other side, because both sides care about stopping the killing. Look at Sadat of Egypt and how he came to the decision that hostilities with Israel had to end and the efforts he made to create that peace despite Begin of Israel's disbelief in any Islamic country's leader was capable of wanting peace. Finally Begin decided to listen and see Sadat as a human being and a peace that still holds today exists between Egypt and Israel, a peace accord that eventually allowed a more rational leader in Jordan to also make a peace accord with Israel. It's the same thing that allowed peace to be created in Northern Ireland.

Kishimoto does it quite well, more realistically than the usual. (I don't mind the more flowery type though because at least the writer has a vague idea of how hostility really ends in the world. Violence only leads to more violence.) Naruto's reactions during the Pain arc were so realistic it was riveting. Nagato's ultimate decision worked. The only thing I would have liked was another chapter of Naruto talking to Nagato, like how he and Gaara changed from enemies to friends, it would have made Nagato's decision that much more powerful and made Naruto look even wiser than he already did during the conversation with Nagato. Perhaps Kishimoto is saving that for Naruto's talk with Sasuke, it would be even more powerful there as they both know Gaara, and have some psychological similarities to what Gaara dealt with. Naruto just made the better choice on his own, choosing to seek love rather than hate driven vengence.

[Miss Soupy]

You also forgot that it equals one of the most boring and overused tropes in manga.

ShadowWolf pretty much nailed it. At some point it just doesn't cut it. It feels like the easy way out you take when you've literally written yourself into a corner with your characters.

Is it really that easy though? I mean, is it easy on Naruto just forgiving Sasuke and wanting his friendship even through all the things he's done? To me this doesn't seem like the easy route to take. Rather, Sasuke took the easy way out by choosing to be an avenger. It's much easier to hate than to love, much easier to hold a grudge than to forgive. Most of us posting in these threads can't forgive Sasuke as a character. We have been shown all the things he has done and how he has hurt his friends. And we basically say what Sai said, to give up on him. The fact that kishi has Sai say this, to me, seems like he realizes how he is making many readers feel about Sasuke. In fact, that's how you should feel about him, really. But Kishi has Naruto continue to hold onto that friendship, even though it hurts him. The average person would give up on Sasuke. But that's what makes Naruto stand out, because he doesn't do what the average person would do. That's why he is the hero. Yes, that is winning through love, yes it is done quite often in stories. But how exactly does that make Naruto less of a character, or more boring? He still had obstacles to over come, still had doubts about his decisions. It's a progression since the beginning. In the end, when Naruto and Sasuke are on equal fighting ground physically, what do you think should happen? How is Naruto supposed to stop Sasuke if he doesn't love? Not quite sure how it could end without it.

[dl316bh]

Just sexist men who make that statement. Kishimoto's been talking about strong feminist women for 10 years. Don't make that statement- it's as revealing of misogyny as KKK member in a white hood is of racism.

Is it now? That's nice. Of COURSE there aren't extremist feminists. And of course I haven't met any! I'm sure PETA doesn't have any extremists either. Hell, I wasn't even talking about the characters in general, whom I'd agree are strong female characters. But thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

There's a difference between not tolerating a mans crap and being as sexist as the men railed against. And yes, there are women who fall under the latter. But hey, thanks for judging me and thanks for playing.

I think my question's been answered in a roundabout way.

^ See what I did there? I just judged you too. What fun!

And on the other plot point, you'll discover eventually this plotline is used so much because that's how hostility truly ends in the real world.

That's not the point. It doesn't make it any less boring.

Besides, ask Ghandi how well the whole "love and non-violence will stop the hate" thing went. But hey, this is all beside the point.

In the end, when Naruto and Sasuke are on equal fighting ground physically, what do you think should happen? How is Naruto supposed to stop Sasuke if he doesn't love? Not quite sure how it could end without it.

I guess in a lot of ways I'm half afraid this is going to have one of those "Digimon" endings; you know, the equivalent of beating the big bad by telling them your hopes and dreams, only with "teh powerz of luv!"

Edited by dl316bh, 24 September 2009 - 03:08 AM.

[ciardha]

Is it now? That's nice. Of COURSE there aren't extremist feminists. And of course I haven't met any! I'm sure PETA doesn't have any extremists either. Hell, I wasn't even talking about the characters in general, whom I'd agree are strong female characters. But thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

There's a difference between not tolerating a mans crap and being as sexist as the men railed against. And yes, there are women who fall under the latter. But hey, thanks for judging me and thanks for playing.

Sigh. I've been a feminist for all those years and I've never, ever met a so called "man hating extremist feminist" and I've known all types of feminists. (from conservative feminists who have beliefs like Sarah Palin to radical feminists who have beliefs like Andrea Dworkin) It's called the "straw feminist argument" used by it's misogynists of all political stripes and yes, both genders too. Give me names of these so called men hating extremist feminists.... I'm betting you'll replay the typical "these women I knew" straw women story... Oh or repeat the usual misogynist lies about Andrea Dworkin- sorry but those so called statements, she never made them- read her books and see what she actually said- and another shocker for you- she lived with a man for her last 25 years, and they were quite close companions, no one was closer to her than her male companion.

I'll give you another piece of truth, those women that fawn all over men actually have more negative attitudes about men than the so called "man hating extremist feminists" do. The fawning women are taught to believe men are big babies, easy to fool if you put out enough. Feminist women see men as no different from women, they just want men to treat them with the same respect as they do other men and not treat women as sex toys but equal human beings. Feminist women know that image of men as big babies cripples any chance for equality almost as much as the way men are taught to treat women.

The fact you made that first misogynist comment warned me, and the fact you reacted exactly the way every other person who ever made that comment does- you went off and threw out another straw feminist attack depresses me. I gave you the opening a person that wasn't sexist would have leaped at- calmly pointed out that this straw feminist image is not reality, the reality is these women you are now calling men hating extremists are not like what our misogynist culture makes you believe, but like the strong women in Naruto. I can see all the strong feminist women who have been in my life reflected pretty realistically personality wise in the strong women in Naruto. I'm more than a bit like those women too...

You didn't really listen when a woman spoke to you- something Kishimoto told you men should do via Chiyo. A man that really believes in women's equality would have listened, apologized for the comment, thought about it seriously and decided to stop viewing so called "men hating extremist feminist" women as the straw feminist image he's been taught all his life (just as a person learning not to be racist will drop the racist straw images they've been taught to believe is reality and listen to what people of other races actually say.) and listen to what those women have to say. Treat a feminist woman with the same respect you would another man and you'll find a woman who's going to dialogue with you. Yes, she'll point out the sexist things you do and say- because she believes you are just as able to throw off our culture's sexism as any woman is. The women who fawn over you will "nag" you to do things but actually not believe you are capable of being anything but a big baby.

Now, the question is will you continue the straw feminist game or will you tell me you'll think about what I said and try an experiment of looking at any woman that you've judged as "man hating extremist feminist" not as that straw feminist image but as if they were Sakura, Tsunade, Chiyo, Temari, etc... listen to what they say the same as you would reading the dialogue of Kishimoto's characters.

I honestly wish guys in the Naruto fandom would do that. Kishimoto lays out some great stuff about the reality that could be of gender relationships if guys would look at women the way the heroic male characters in Naruto do, heck even Jiraiya is better than some guys in Naruto fandom. Jiraiya was a perv but he learned to listen to what women said to him seriously and have some respect for women once he grew out of his early teens. In part 2 of the manga Shikamaru stopped making negative comments about girls and women and clearly actually respects and listens to Sakura, Tsunade, Ino, etc... He and Temari play a flirting game, but that's all it is. He says something mildly sexist then she mocks him and he concedes the battle, both with faint smiles on their faces.

[creak]

what's with the rants on feminism? arn't we're here to discuss the 456 spoilers...

Edited by creak, 24 September 2009 - 07:33 AM.