31579 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

I really don't see the new Star Wars as just "rehashing old ground, but not as good". I see the similarities as mere homages, but I also see them going down their own path with said homages being much more just the surface. Not that the films are perfect either, but I feel a lot of the vitriol I've seen towards them is also quite undeserved.

Boruto, though, isn't even TRYING to do its own thing.

To me, the homages were fine. I did see what people meant by the "rehashing," but it didn't bother me. I think was bothers me more is how The Last Jedi kind of broke the dynamic of what the other Star Wars movie was.

My view

The other movies had this awe around the Skywalker family and for a good long time that is what the story was revolved around. Whether it was Leia Skywalker and Han with their kids or Luke and his kids...at least in the EU, but what Disney did is killing off the one thing that made the story great. They are killing off the Skywalker's just to bring in a new unknown family that there really isn't a reason to follow.

Yeah, I guess with Kylo Ren it is still somewhat there, but it was also this issue with the good and bad side of the Skywalker family. Anakin was bad, Padme was good. Anakin was still bad, Luke was good. What they should have done was a family fued like what was going on in the the other stories.

Like, imagine if they made a Naruto spin off where it wasn't about Naruto or his family at all. Imagine a story where Naruto is the bad guy and it is some nobody other person that comes out of nowhere for no reason and is all of a sudden gifted all these abilities and powers without reason. At least the bloodlines and stuff would have given some explanation, not here. It is like have a non-uchiha unlocking the Sharingan.

Of course, this opinion I get told is a stupid reason to not like Star Wars either now and that my opinion and vitriol is still undeserved.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 January 2018 - 07:13 PM.

[Catra]

looking at force awakens and last jedi back to back it feels more like its kylo rens story than it is rey's. kind of like how george wanted vader to be the central point when making the prequels when in the originals he was just part of a bigger story.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

looking at force awakens and last jedi back to back it feels more like its kylo rens story than it is rey's. kind of like how george wanted vader to be the central point when making the prequels when in the originals he was just part of a bigger story.

 

Come to think of it, it makes a lot of sense, since it is a story about legacy and family, which is why it makes sense it's more Ben/Kylo Ren's story than Rey's, even if Rey gets a BIG focus herself.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

My personal opinion is that Rey is a Mary sue with the personality of cardboard. And I'm really only vaguely interested in Ben Everytime they try to add to the franchise the further they drag it down imo. 

[Phantom_999]

You really can't answer this question correctly because you are asking basically "if Sakura and Hinata switched places..." The answer...well, I wouldn't be a NS fan if that was the case. If the story had it where Naruto was in love with Hinata the whole time and then changed him to be with Sakura because Sakura had this huge crush on Naruto and was a stalker that doesn't do anything...then why would I support that.

"What if NS was written as NH was in the story?"

Simple answer, I wouldn't be an NS fan then because I wouldn't be supporting that pairing. I would be supporting NH because that is what the story supported. Also, Hinata and Sakura would also switched personalities.  My support for a pairing to happen was based on the story. Not because I like NS no matter how good or bad it is. If the story changed, then my views would change. It is as simple as that.

To make NS like NH is now, you have to change Hinata and Sakura as characters to where Hinata was the down to earth, caring, and real girl and Sakua was the stalker, shy, useless girl who cared more for her love for Naruto than anyone else. Of course, that would mean that Hinata would end up with Sasuke because the present NH pro-enders would turn into NS pro-enders and we would be NH anti-enders instead. You can't think of this any other way and I think this proves that myself am not a pairing fan so much as I am a story fan and that the pairing a chose is because of the story and not because of shipping favoritism. Remember, I used to be a NH fan myself until I read the story more and really looked into it.

Now, considering linear proportion and relativity, if Kishimoto written the story well...then yes I would support NS still because NS has basically become the "If Kishimoto was actually a good writer, he would have made NS canon and finished the aspect of all the other plots." The whole fact that everything else stopped because NH needed more development and focus so as to "explain" their canocity is the whole problem to begin with. Everything changed becuase NH had to be canon. I will die saying this to the end. "All the problems with the story was a bi-product of forcing the plot to revolve around NH and Hinata's obsession." Everything can be explained by "Well, in order to give Hinata the spotlight, we have to do this to this character."

I loved Sakura and Naruto because of the characters they were and not because of what I thought they were. It would be the same thing if I switched Naruto with Sasuke and I would probably love Sasuke more and still ahte the fact that he obsesses over Naruto.

It's not the pairing itself...it is the story that was written around them...THAT'S the pairing I support.

 

 

Oh I know that. I'm simply dumbing down the intricacies of those things for those rabid fans that think we are just butt-hurt over pairings not happening. Obviously if NaruSaku WAS canon things would not be as they are because the narrative does not support that and that the ending would be much better. I'm not talking about that.

 

I saying (in a way that pro-enders would understand) that IF naruto and Sakura married and we get the SAME  "gutter kitten" that we have now, would we be all like well NaruSaku is canon so it  doesn't matter? that is what I want to disprove. If the the story ended being just as bad as it is now but Just that NaruSaku is canon, Would we still be just as upset with the story? That is what I mean. Again, are you a fan of the story, or are you a fan of your "make-belief couples"?

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 January 2018 - 06:25 AM.

[Catra]

looking at classic amv's i saw as a kid and this just hit like a train

 

really i was lucky enough to have this one be one of the first ones i ever saw. the song matched, editing not as fancing but it didn't need to be. Really if naruto ended right here i think i'd be happy with it. you can easily ignore part 2 and try (TRY) to enjoy part one by itself. I know i said i couldn't stop thinking of what woud eventually become of these characters but this video man...

[James S Cassidy]

 

Oh I know that. I'm simply dumbing down the intricacies of those things for those rabid fans that think we are just butt-hurt over pairings not happening. Obviously if NaruSaku WAS canon things would not be as they are because the narrative does not support that and that the ending would be much better. I'm not talking about that.

 

I saying (in a way that pro-enders would understand) that IF naruto and Sakura married and we get the SAME  "gutter kitten" that we have now, would we be all like well NaruSaku is canon so it  doesn't matter? that is what I want to disprove. If the the story ended being just as bad as it is now but Just that NaruSaku is canon, Would we still be just as upset with the story? That is what I mean. Again, are you a fan of the story, or are you a fan of your "make-belief couples"?

Well, I am just giving you an answer. lol It sometimes comes down to: If you already knew the answer, then why ask the question? If you wanted to prove to pro-enders about anything, just copy and past my own post and while you are at it, ask the proenders if they would support NS if the tables were reversed like I specified. If they say they support Hinata no matter what, then you have your pairing bias.

If they support Hinata no matter which way or form, like they think RtN Hinata is perfect even though she is opposite of the real Hinata, then they are hypocrites.

[Phantom_999]

Fair enough  although to be honest If your opinion flew over their heads the first time I don't think second time is the charm or even the third.

 

If they don't want to talk about logic or REASONS for pairings, Lets just talk about the pairings themselves. That is pretty self explanatory. They think Naruto and Hinata are PRACTICALLY DESTINED to be together just for speaking a few lines to each other, and everything said between them is romantic which is shown by the many examples you provide.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 January 2018 - 06:50 PM.

[RulesofNature]

Well, I am just giving you an answer. lol It sometimes comes down to: If you already knew the answer, then why ask the question? If you wanted to prove to pro-enders about anything, just copy and past my own post and while you are at it, ask the proenders if they would support NS if the tables were reversed like I specified. If they say they support Hinata no matter what, then you have your pairing bias.

If they support Hinata no matter which way or form, like they think RtN Hinata is perfect even though she is opposite of the real Hinata, then they are hypocrites.

 

The thing about RtN Hinata is she's not that far removed from canon-Hinata deep down. Hinata ultimately has this possessiveness around Naruto, something I've described as her seeing him as moe. Like she doesn't acknowledge his strength, instead viewing him as the same loudmouth who never gave up in the academy. This is the mental image of him  that she idolizes, the failing student who refuses to give up while putting on a happy smile to cover his own sadness. In many ways Hinata fails to acknowledge how he's changed and instead looks down upon him, believing it her duty to defend him even from the criticisms of his children. Behind that shy exterior is someone who very much wants to push herself onto the sad little boy she wants to protect. She gets jealous of a scarf knitted by Naruto's dead mother for crying out loud!

 

RtN Hinata is a lot more open about it with her domineering nature. She is what is hidden underneath the underneath of Hinata.

[StrikerTheNoble]

 

The thing about RtN Hinata is she's not that far removed from canon-Hinata deep down. Hinata ultimately has this possessiveness around Naruto, something I've described as her seeing him as moe. Like she doesn't acknowledge his strength, instead viewing him as the same loudmouth who never gave up in the academy. This is the mental image of him  that she idolizes, the failing student who refuses to give up while putting on a happy smile to cover his own sadness. In many ways Hinata fails to acknowledge how he's changed and instead looks down upon him, believing it her duty to defend him even from the criticisms of his children. Behind that shy exterior is someone who very much wants to push herself onto the sad little boy she wants to protect. She gets jealous of a scarf knitted by Naruto's dead mother for crying out loud!

 

RtN Hinata is a lot more open about it with her domineering nature. She is what is hidden underneath the underneath of Hinata.

 

Thats brilliant.

 

Holy Hannan you completely changed RtN for me. All this time I (and probably many others) had this subtle assumption that RtN counterparts were the opposites of their originals.

 

But If you look closely... they are rippled reflections of themselves. A few examples off the top of the head:

 

Hinata is a possessive kitten, which is what she would be if her shyness didn`t hold her back. (Think Erika from teen wolf). She is the outspoken domeneering woman she deep down wishes she could be. Because if you really think about her "desire" to be more confident... where does that road lead to?

 

Ino is a shy sexually repressed character in RtN which could hint at her deep insecurities since she amongst the kuniochi appears to pay the most attention to her appearance.

 

Gai is a tired old man seemingly swapping personalities with Kakashi but could ultimately show how tired he is and that his power of youth is leaving him.

 

Kakashi on the other hand is a upbeat go getter which could synch with the person he would of been if his life story wasnt full of tragedy.

 

Neji is a pervert which for all we know Neji could actually be as well if it werent for his clan imposed self discipline.

 

Ive got nothing on Kiba, maybe he just secretly also likes cats.

 

 

(Finally to the big boys)

 

Sasuke was in my view always going to become this if it werent for the Uchiha massacre. He is rich, dark and talented. Naturally women would have been all over him and would have lived the frat life.

 

And Naruto... I think Mnenma is a dark reflection of the part of Naruto that resented his parents for dying. It is an even darker reflection of Narutos darkest desire to have vengeance on the village that basically tortured him his entire young life. If Naruto was a less compassionate and kind person Mnenma would have easily been born.

 

This also fits with the whole metaphore of ripples in a lake representing spacetime. The RtN universe is not an inversion it simply obscured some of the traits that these characters had and allowed the ones underneath to see light.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

The thing about RtN Hinata is she's not that far removed from canon-Hinata deep down. Hinata ultimately has this possessiveness around Naruto, something I've described as her seeing him as moe. Like she doesn't acknowledge his strength, instead viewing him as the same loudmouth who never gave up in the academy. This is the mental image of him  that she idolizes, the failing student who refuses to give up while putting on a happy smile to cover his own sadness. In many ways Hinata fails to acknowledge how he's changed and instead looks down upon him, believing it her duty to defend him even from the criticisms of his children. Behind that shy exterior is someone who very much wants to push herself onto the sad little boy she wants to protect. She gets jealous of a scarf knitted by Naruto's dead mother for crying out loud!

 

RtN Hinata is a lot more open about it with her domineering nature. She is what is hidden underneath the underneath of Hinata.

Just look at how easily she gives up on him or at least shows no faith in him. She mentally begged him to give up against Neji after he got hit by the 64 palms, she felt she HAD to selfishly confess to him because she figured they were now all dead when he got pinned by Pein, she acts like he got mortally wounded by "Tobi" after a single simple kick that knocked him into water (to which Sakura showed complete faith in Naruto), she felt she HAD to heal his shoulder despite Kurama's chakra and being a Jinchuriki and all (which is common knowledge by that point).
 

 

 

Thats brilliant.

 

Holy Hannan you completely changed RtN for me. All this time I (and probably many others) had this subtle assumption that RtN counterparts were the opposites of their originals.

 

But If you look closely... they are rippled reflections of themselves. A few examples off the top of the head:

 

Hinata is a possessive kitten, which is what she would be if her shyness didn`t hold her back. (Think Erika from teen wolf). She is the outspoken domeneering woman she deep down wishes she could be. Because if you really think about her "desire" to be more confident... where does that road lead to?

 

Ino is a shy sexually repressed character in RtN which could hint at her deep insecurities since she amongst the kuniochi appears to pay the most attention to her appearance.

 

Gai is a tired old man seemingly swapping personalities with Kakashi but could ultimately show how tired he is and that his power of youth is leaving him.

 

Kakashi on the other hand is a upbeat go getter which could synch with the person he would of been if his life story wasnt full of tragedy.

 

Neji is a pervert which for all we know Neji could actually be as well if it werent for his clan imposed self discipline.

 

Ive got nothing on Kiba, maybe he just secretly also likes cats.

 

 

(Finally to the big boys)

 

Sasuke was in my view always going to become this if it werent for the Uchiha massacre. He is rich, dark and talented. Naturally women would have been all over him and would have lived the frat life.

 

And Naruto... I think Mnenma is a dark reflection of the part of Naruto that resented his parents for dying. It is an even darker reflection of Narutos darkest desire to have vengeance on the village that basically tortured him his entire young life. If Naruto was a less compassionate and kind person Mnenma would have easily been born.

 

This also fits with the whole metaphore of ripples in a lake representing spacetime. The RtN universe is not an inversion it simply obscured some of the traits that these characters had and allowed the ones underneath to see light.

Yeah, it's not so much "opposites" as much as "what ifs" for the characters, much like how most of Naruto's main antagonists have been a "what if Naruto had gone wrong in this way" foils. Almost like time travel and altering just one small detail resulting in countless changes to the future, big and small, good and bad.

[James S Cassidy]

 

The thing about RtN Hinata is she's not that far removed from canon-Hinata deep down. Hinata ultimately has this possessiveness around Naruto, something I've described as her seeing him as moe. Like she doesn't acknowledge his strength, instead viewing him as the same loudmouth who never gave up in the academy. This is the mental image of him  that she idolizes, the failing student who refuses to give up while putting on a happy smile to cover his own sadness. In many ways Hinata fails to acknowledge how he's changed and instead looks down upon him, believing it her duty to defend him even from the criticisms of his children. Behind that shy exterior is someone who very much wants to push herself onto the sad little boy she wants to protect. She gets jealous of a scarf knitted by Naruto's dead mother for crying out loud!

 

RtN Hinata is a lot more open about it with her domineering nature. She is what is hidden underneath the underneath of Hinata.

I guess, but what does that say about Sakura who is more or less the same as her real self with the only difference being that she is in love with Menma/Sasuke and not Sasuke. 

When RtN came out, the movie had two premisis apparently according to Kishimoto. The characters, for the most part, were opposite, and it was telling elements that supposedly Kishimoto couldn't put in the story, but wanted to. (Not sure what this means exactly.) With that being said, it is funny that Hinata is opposite in everything, but her lust for Naruto. Sakura changed entirely her personality to be more forward and love Naruto/Menma. Sasuke was a womanizer despite his other self hating women entirely and a player that didn't care about revenge. Neji was more of a goofball than serious, and so on and so forth. Menma is shown to be more reserved, rigid, and acts more like Sasuke as he does in the real series save for wanting revenge and some other things. So why does Hinata get to retain her love for Naruto and not say be in love with someone else? This one always puzzled me. Are you telling me that Hinata is meant to love Naruto no matter what universe they are in? To me, she has even less reason to love Naruto in this universe than she did in the other one. She doesn't need a confidence booster and she isn't idling at Naruto as a hero. She is aggressively desires him for no reason.

So why does Sakura's and Sasuke's love interest change in RtN, but Hinata's does not in this  "opposite world?" I guess Kishimoto just couldn't figure out anyone else for Hinata to be with.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 11 January 2018 - 05:31 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I guess, but what does that say about Sakura who is more or less the same as her real self with the only difference being that she is in love with Menma/Sasuke and not Sasuke. 

When RtN came out, the movie had two premisis apparently according to Kishimoto. The characters, for the most part, were opposite, and it was telling elements that supposedly Kishimoto couldn't put in the story, but wanted to. (Not sure what this means exactly.) With that being said, it is funny that Hinata is opposite in everything, but her lust for Naruto. Sakura changed entirely her personality to be more forward and love Naruto/Menma. Sasuke was a womanizer despite his other self hating women entirely and a player that didn't care about revenge. Neji was more of a goofball than serious, and so on and so forth. Menma is shown to be more reserved, rigid, and acts more like Sasuke as he does in the real series save for wanting revenge and some other things. So why does Hinata get to retain her love for Naruto and not say be in love with someone else? This one always puzzled me. Are you telling me that Hinata is meant to love Naruto no matter what universe they are in? To me, she has even less reason to love Naruto in this universe than she did in the other one. She doesn't need a confidence booster and she is idling at Naruto as a hero. She is aggressively desires him for no reason.

So why does Sakura's and Sasuke's love interest change in RtN, but Hinata's does not in this  "opposite world?" I guess Kishimoto just couldn't figure out anyone else for Hinata to be with.

 

I guess it also shows how stagnate Hinata was meant to be in the long run.

[James S Cassidy]

 

I guess it also shows how stagnate Hinata was meant to be in the long run.

This is why I hate her character so bad. No matter how they write her, she is nothing more than a Naruto kitten-hungry satellite character.

We can say it a thousand times over.

I can describe Hinata in one word: "Naruto-kun."

And it doesn't change

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

This is why I hate her character so bad. No matter how they write her, she is nothing more than a Naruto kitten-hungry satellite character.

We can say it a thousand times over.

I can describe Hinata in one word: "Naruto-kun."

And it doesn't change

 

Which goes back to how I said Hinata had potential to be changed, but Kishi didn't do it, or others around him, be it later editors or fans, wouldn't LET him do it either.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Which goes back to how I said Hinata had potential to be changed, but Kishi didn't do it, or others around him, be it later editors or fans, wouldn't LET him do it either.

I don't know who was more kitten-hungry in this series now. Naruto and Sakura going after Sasuke....or Hinata going after Naruto.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I don't know who was more kitten-hungry in this series now. Naruto and Sakura going after Sasuke....or Hinata going after Naruto.

 

Me either, James, me either....

[Phantom_999]

I don't know who was more kitten-hungry in this series now. Naruto and Sakura going after Sasuke....or Hinata going after Naruto.

 
Well I can't say who was more kitten hungry but I CAN say whose obession was worse for the series overall. Hinata for Naruto. that changed the entire story's trajectory and conclusion
 
 

I guess, but what does that say about Sakura who is more or less the same as her real self with the only difference being that she is in love with Menma/Sasuke and not Sasuke. 

When RtN came out, the movie had two premisis apparently according to Kishimoto. The characters, for the most part, were opposite, and it was telling elements that supposedly Kishimoto couldn't put in the story, but wanted to. (Not sure what this means exactly.) With that being said, it is funny that Hinata is opposite in everything, but her lust for Naruto. Sakura changed entirely her personality to be more forward and love Naruto/Menma. Sasuke was a womanizer despite his other self hating women entirely and a player that didn't care about revenge. Neji was more of a goofball than serious, and so on and so forth. Menma is shown to be more reserved, rigid, and acts more like Sasuke as he does in the real series save for wanting revenge and some other things. So why does Hinata get to retain her love for Naruto and not say be in love with someone else? This one always puzzled me. Are you telling me that Hinata is meant to love Naruto no matter what universe they are in? To me, she has even less reason to love Naruto in this universe than she did in the other one. She doesn't need a confidence booster and she isn't idling at Naruto as a hero. She is aggressively desires him for no reason.

So why does Sakura's and Sasuke's love interest change in RtN, but Hinata's does not in this  "opposite world?" I guess Kishimoto just couldn't figure out anyone else for Hinata to be with.

 
that is something that I actually wanted to say. Why is everyone in RTN a polar opposite to how they are in the main universe, but Hinata retains some sort of lust for Naruto/Menma? I mean sure she's a tsundere about it but again what makes Menma appealing to her in this universe? That was never explained. In fact I don't see Ino logically falling for Sasuke in this universe because she is a shy and timid girl ( ala main universe Hinata) and Sasuke is a play boy here. So why is it that circumstances in this universe changes any other character's romantic interest in someone but not Hinata's? Logic dictates  that it is because Hinata is Naruto's sole fan girl that gives her any relevance to the story at all. 

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 February 2018 - 12:49 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

 
Well I can't say who was more kitten hungry but I CAN say whose obession was worse for the series overall. Hinata for Naruto. that changed the entire story's trajectory and conclusion
 
   
that is something that I actually wanted to say. Why is everyone a polar opposite to how they are but Hinata retains some sort of lust for Naruto/Menma? I mean sure she's a tsundere about it but again what makes Menma appealing to her in this universe? That was never explained. In fact I don't see Ino logically falling for Sasuke in this universe because she is a shy and timid girl ( ala HInata) and Sasuke is a play boy here. So why is it that circumstances in this unverse changes any other character's romantic interest in someone but not Hinata? Logic dictates  that it is because Hinata is Naruto's sole fan girl that gives her any relevance to the story at all. 

And this is why I hate her character so much. She insults every other respectable anime girl in history. She is just so much trash and yet she is praised.

I don't get why this kitten is so popular. I never could get why this kitten was so popular. Every other story I see, people (Americans) hate the moe character because they see her as this "sex symbol" and they like the strong independant women instead because this way they are not defined by their looks or just to be a peice of meat for men. Hinata is pratically Naruto's slave and yet they love her more than anything. Why?

WHY?!

 

What the hell is so good about Hinata that she just defies all logic and is this beacon of "Women superiority?" That she is seen as this "strong" woman who defies all logic? It drives mad just how ridiculous and praised Hinata is for something she is clearly not. I swear I would give almost anything to understand why.

The only thing I can gather is that Hinata is only popular because she is in love with Naruto. No other reason.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 January 2018 - 05:34 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

What the hell is so good about Hinata that she just defies all logic and is this beacon of "Women superiority?" That she is seen as this "strong" woman who defies all logic? It drives mad just how ridiculous and praised Hinata is for something she is clearly not. I swear I would give almost anything to understand why.

The only thing I can gather is that Hinata is only popular because she is in love with Naruto. No other reason.

 

I thought it was that, as well as her getting big boobs and such later on, James. But I also can imagine it is how Sakura initially treated Naruto that makes them defer to Hinata, even if they forget that Sakura had been getting much better in many ways. But I guess they just didn't care.