5160 replies to this topic

[Super Boom]

wow XD Grimmjow vs Kenpachi? I'd like to see Grimmjow vs Renji, since Grimmjow is something like Renji's arrancar counterpart...well, at least I think he is, a bit.

Yeah I guess I'd agree with that, though I've always seen him more as an Ichigo's Arrancar counterpart than Renji's. Other than the obvious difference in bloodlust and hatred towards humans, Grimmjow seems to share Ichigo's resolve (with how he tried to continue their fight even after his zanpakutou reverted), his lack of social graces (as we see with his attitude towards Aizen and his fellow Arrancar), and the sense of honor they seem to, to a point, unconsciously act upon when they feel indebted to someone. It might not be unconscious on Grimmjow's part, but he doesn't seem like the type of guy to follow some established moral code just because a human girl healed his arm. And I also think that's a pretty rare trait among Arrancar, seeing how Yammy treated the medic who healed his arm after his first appearance (on a side note, it's interesting how Kubo had both Grimmjow and Yammy lose their arms after their first appearances-I sort of wonder if he was trying to draw a contrast between Grimmjow and his colleagues in the Espada).

Though I'd say Renji definitely shares those traits as well. I love how, instead of having one cliche shounen rival, Ichigo seems to have several, with Renji and Grimmjow being "Counter-part Rivals" and Ishida, Byakuya, and Ulquiorra serving as "Anti-thesis Rivals".
I'm not sure if I'd include anyone else (maybe Ikkaku or Kenpachi?), but I basically assume recurring characters who've given Ichigo a good fight, and he at least acknowledges as an equal (this is why I don't include Kenpachi) are 'rivals' to an extent. And I really hope that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra become 'recurring' in the near future.

Thanks for posting it! I guess I am so used to seeing him say 'woman' in translations and fanfics, it doesn't seem weird to me. Even more, I love the way he says 'onna'. Hearing Ulquiorra say, 'ore to koi, onna'(come with me, woman) just makes me melt XD It is good that Tony uses a whisper sort of voice, since Ulquiorra largely is very quiet when he speaks. I think perhaps Daisuke has a bit of a different feel overall, at least with the hearts convo. I noticed when he repeats some of Orihime's answers back, sometimes he says the words hesitantly, as if he is almost second guessing himself ("Do you seriously...think that...?"). That would be very canon for Ulquiorra and sort of adds another level to him that is sometimes missed. Tony is more straight forward. But Tony does have to try and make his lines fit for lip movements that are meant for another language. The real telling will be at the final line...hopefully he can manage to match that great emotion in his "Are you afraid of me, woman?"

Yeah, I do think the subbed version is much better done overall. For me personally, though, I generally treat dubbed and subbed anime adaptations as separate incarnations of the original manga. The difference being that one sounds much more natural, while the other feels more familiar to someone like me. There are a lot of translation problems with dubs that are hard to ignore, like the woman/girl thing you mentioned, how certain names are romanized (Harribel is referred to as Hallibel in the dub), and, of course, the lack of honorifics. Especially the latter, with how every character seems to address each other the same way, which keep dub-watchers, to an extent, from understanding certain character relationships and understanding how characters are originally intended to act.

As for that scene, I definitely agree that Daisuke does a better job overall, but I love how Tony maintained such an eloquent air while giving that monologue. I don't really ship UlquiHime (though I'm not averse to it either ), but it seems like some of the best written lines in the manga are given by Ulquiorra towards Orihime. I'm not sure if it's Kubo liking the character, the pairing, or both (which I wouldn't doubt), but, man, Ulquiorra can really give a great speech. I think I might watch that video again.

And this is probably the reason why Naruto is sucking in the anime department because there's no quality control from Kishi. From what I've heard, Kishi is apparently a family man so that's why he doesn't want to bother with the anime because he fears it will take up his family time. Touching, for sure. But on the other hand, you can't help but feel slightly annoyed. Ah well, when you consider a mangaka's life, I suppose it can't be helped and becomes perfectly understandable.

Hmm, is Tite Kubo married? I guess maybe he just manages his time better than Kishi. I do prefer it when authors take an interest in off-canon material, it keeps people from misinterpreting characters and relationships (which the Naruto anime definitely has a problem with). I can definitely empathize with Kishi preferring to spend time with his family over managing his manga's legacy though. Besides, if the rumors I've heard are true (apparantely Kubo or Oda claimed that Kishi's wife had a personality like Sakura's) than I'd really prefer Kishi to spend as much time with Mrs. Kishi as possible.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 11 November 2011 - 02:13 AM.

[Miss Soupy]

Yeah I guess I'd agree with that, though I've always seen him more as an Ichigo's Arrancar counterpart than Renji's. Other than the obvious difference in bloodlust and hatred towards humans, Grimmjow seems to share Ichigo's resolve (with how he tried to continue their fight even after his zanpakutou reverted), his lack of social graces (as we see with his attitude towards Aizen and his fellow Arrancar), and the sense of honor they seem to, to a point, unconsciously act upon when they feel indebted to someone. It might not be unconscious on Grimmjow's part, but he doesn't seem like the type of guy to follow some established moral code just because a human girl healed his arm. And I also think that's a pretty rare trait among Arrancar, seeing how Yammy treated the medic who healed his arm after his first appearance (on a side note, it's interesting how Kubo had both Grimmjow and Yammy lose their arms after their first appearances-I sort of wonder if he was trying to draw a contrast between Grimmjow and his colleagues in the Espada).

Though I'd say Renji definitely shares those traits as well. I love how, instead of having one cliche shounen rival, Ichigo seems to have several, with Renji and Grimmjow being "Counter-part Rivals" and Ishida, Byakuya, and Ulquiorra serving as "Anti-thesis Rivals".
I'm not sure if I'd include anyone else (maybe Ikkaku or Kenpachi?), but I basically assume recurring characters who've given Ichigo a good fight, and he at least acknowledges as an equal (this is why I don't include Kenpachi) are 'rivals' to an extent. And I really hope that Grimmjow and Ulquiorra become 'recurring' in the near future.

Oh yes, Grimmjow is definitely set up to be very similar to Ichigo. What I meant by counterpart was more directed towards role in the story rather than solely personality. I know Kubo likes to show a lot of parallels, symmetry, opposite yet similar sort of situations. Grimmjow sort of filled what Renji's role was. He wanted to defeat Ichigo mostly because of a need to prove something about himself personally. Also, that honor code, like you mentioned, is prevalent in both characters. Of course, with Renji it stands out more because he is the 'good' side of this role and is actively trying to stand by it, but, like you described, with Grimmjow it is there but he doesn't always consciously acknowledge it. Neliel would be the Yoruichi, Ulquiorra the Byakuya, Nnoitra the Kenpachi, Szayel the Mayuri. I know you can't match them up perfectly, but I think the similarity is there. I mean, the Grimmjow and Ulquiorra opposing relationship reminds me so much of the Byakuya/Renji one. Yet at the same time, it wouldn't be hard for me to see Grimmjow and Ulquiorra working fairly well together if they had to, the same as Byakuya and Renji can.

Yeah, I do think the subbed version is much better done overall. For me personally, though, I generally treat dubbed and subbed anime adaptations as separate incarnations of the original manga. The difference being that one sounds much more natural, while the other feels more familiar to someone like me. There are a lot of translation problems with dubs that are hard to ignore, like the woman/girl thing you mentioned, how certain names are romanized (Harribel is referred to as Hallibel in the dub), and, of course, the lack of honorifics. Especially the latter, with how every character seems to address each other the same way, which keep dub-watchers, to an extent, from understanding certain character relationships and understanding how characters are originally intended to act.

Oh yeah, the honorifics...forgot about that. That is a bit grating to hear the differing names. The way certain honorifics add distance or closeness, or symbolize respect are pretty important in an anime. It can't exactly translate correctly to the western culture.

As for that scene, I definitely agree that Daisuke does a better job overall, but I love how Tony maintained such an eloquent air while giving that monologue. I don't really ship UlquiHime (though I'm not averse to it either ), but it seems like some of the best written lines in the manga are given by Ulquiorra towards Orihime. I'm not sure if it's Kubo liking the character, the pairing, or both (which I wouldn't doubt), but, man, Ulquiorra can really give a great speech. I think I might watch that video again.

Haha, Ulquiorra is by far one of the most diverse, deep characters in the story. I could write extreme LAPs about him (well I probably have already to be honest!), because there is just so many subtleties with his character that its hard for western fans especially to pick up on. To people not willing to understand him, he just seems like some emo creep who tortures Orihime. That is far from the case, though, if you really take a good look at him, his words, and his actions.

He is Kubo's first arrancar creation and he put a lot of thought and effort into him. And his link with Orihime was set up pretty much from the start, which is fairly interesting. Her second volume poem was what prompted Kubo to move his hollow hole to his heart rather than in the neck where it was first located. It was at the 5th tower that Ulquiorra fought Ichigo and did gain his heart, just like her poem predicted. Course way back in Good bye Halcyon days, we didn't know any sort of connection existed between the two characters beyond the bad guy who took the innocent girl away. I think it's also interesting that he is one of the few characters that showed more interest in someone other than Ichigo. Of course Ichigo, being the hero, demands most strong characters to be changed by him. I mean, pretty much every other character Ichigo has gone up against has been changed because of him. Ulquiorra isn't saved by the hero. That makes him very unique. In fact, Ichigo pretty much proved Ulquiorra's words to be right. Hollow are superior, discard your emotions to be strong. Had Ichithing stabbed him in the neck, Ulquiorra would have died being proven right about everything. Ulquiorra has tons of power, but that isn't really what he was interested in. I think that makes him a very good contrast to Grimmjow who desires power so desperately, and yet he sees Ulquiorra who is above him yet does not even seem to have purpose. That's why Ichigo is much more similar to Grimmjow and why Ichigo couldn't be the one to 'save' Ulquiorra. Orihime had to be the one who showed Ulquiorra the way.

Grimmjow is also a special character to Kubo tho. Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are the only two arrancar, to my knowledge, that were given character theme songs by Kubo.

Hmm, is Tite Kubo married? I guess maybe he just manages his time better than Kishi. I do prefer it when authors take an interest in off-canon material, it keeps people from misinterpreting characters and relationships (which the Naruto anime definitely has a problem with). I can definitely empathize with Kishi preferring to spend time with his family over managing his manga's legacy though. Besides, if the rumors I've heard are true (apparantely Kubo or Oda claimed that Kishi's wife had a personality like Sakura's) than I'd really prefer Kishi to spend as much time with Mrs. Kishi as possible.

No, Kubo isn't married. Oh, but here is an interesting fact: Kubo has a table that is imprinted with dozens of quotes from bleach. It is pretty cool!

And yeah, it was Oda who made that comment. Well, I think he said something along the lines of his wife looking just like Sakura. It could be something like a tease or joke from one mangaka to another.

[Phantom_999]

Haha, Ulquiorra is by far one of the most diverse, deep characters in the story. I could write extreme LAPs about him (well I probably have already to be honest!), because there is just so many subtleties with his character that its hard for western fans especially to pick up on. To people not willing to understand him, he just seems like some emo creep who tortures Orihime. That is far from the case, though, if you really take a good look at him, his words, and his actions.

He is Kubo's first arrancar creation and he put a lot of thought and effort into him. And his link with Orihime was set up pretty much from the start, which is fairly interesting. Her second volume poem was what prompted Kubo to move his hollow hole to his heart rather than in the neck where it was first located. It was at the 5th tower that Ulquiorra fought Ichigo and did gain his heart, just like her poem predicted. Course way back in Good bye Halcyon days, we didn't know any sort of connection existed between the two characters beyond the bad guy who took the innocent girl away. I think it's also interesting that he is one of the few characters that showed more interest in someone other than Ichigo. Of course Ichigo, being the hero, demands most strong characters to be changed by him. I mean, pretty much every other character Ichigo has gone up against has been changed because of him. Ulquiorra isn't saved by the hero. That makes him very unique. In fact, Ichigo pretty much proved Ulquiorra's words to be right. Hollow are superior, discard your emotions to be strong. Had Ichithing stabbed him in the neck, Ulquiorra would have died being proven right about everything. Ulquiorra has tons of power, but that isn't really what he was interested in. I think that makes him a very good contrast to Grimmjow who desires power so desperately, and yet he sees Ulquiorra who is above him yet does not even seem to have purpose. That's why Ichigo is much more similar to Grimmjow and why Ichigo couldn't be the one to 'save' Ulquiorra. Orihime had to be the one who showed Ulquiorra the way.

Grimmjow is also a special character to Kubo tho. Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are the only two arrancar, to my knowledge, that were given character theme songs by Kubo.

And yeah, it was Oda who made that comment. Well, I think he said something along the lines of his wife looking just like Sakura. It could be something like a tease or joke from one mangaka to another.

Well I know for a fact Ulquiorra is one of you favorite if not ABSOLUTE favorite character right? But yeah I admit I find him the most interesing and tragic of all the Espadas. So you've got a Fellow Ulquiorra fan here And If Kishimoto's wife DOES look like Sakura then ALRIGHT!!! He's got a beautiful wife and two cute kids!!! FABULOUS!!!

Edited by Phantom_999, 11 November 2011 - 10:43 PM.

[Super Boom]

This is a response to a post by Zacrathedemon5 on another thread.

Yes, that too
But...isn't [Grimmjow] confirmed dead?

I tend to avoid mangaka interviews, considering the massive difference between English and Japanese, and how easy it is to mistranslate certain parts. Remember that infamous Naruto interview, where Hinata was revealed to be Kishi's new heroine, and Sakura was confirmed to be love with Sasuke and have no feelings whatsoever for Naruto?
Anyways, after I heard the rumor that Kubo 'confirmed' Grimmjow to be dead, I looked up the official interview. From what I can gather, it was from the 2011 SJ interview, the same one where Kubo claimed he could see the story going for another 10 years. Here are the parts of the interview relevant to Grimmjow.

SJ Interview 2011 - Grimmjow Comments --Click here to view--

「グリムジョー。もっと早く死ぬつもりだったんだけど、描いてたら 勿体無くなったんで、活躍させた」と師匠

I planned Grimmjow to die earlier, but when I drew it, I saw there was no emphasize at all, so I added activities to it.” Said sensei.

GJのことは「先生が当初考えていたより活躍したキャラはいますか？」ときかれた師匠が

Grimmjow’s matter….”Is there any character that was more active than what teacher had thought?” questioned to the teacher

「グリムジョーですね。すぐに死ぬ予定だったんですが、思ったより活躍して・・」

“Grimmjow. I expected it to die instantly, but he played more active part than what I thought.” Sensei’s answer.

みたいな流れで、少なくとも自分は「現在死んでいる」とは受け取らなかった

looking from flow (of context), I didn’t get anything of “he’s dead now” from it.

I took this off the Bleach Wiki, so it might not be the best translation, but it seems pretty similar to the original translation I saw. Here is the page with all of Kubo interviews on it, so you can see the whole context of the interview if you want. Anyways, I sort of gleaned that basically Grimmjow was ORIGINALLY intended to die (I'm guessing during or right after the first Karakura fight, leading to Luppi probably being a more important character), but Kubo decided to expand his role. So as far as dying, it didn't really confirm anything other that it might have been Kubo's original intention to kill off Grimmjow. Considering that most of his character development occured once he got his arm back, I generally assume it was a case of Kubo changing his mind regarding his role in the plot.

Plus, with how popular Grimmjow was at the beginning of the Arrancar Arc, it seems very likely to me that Kubo could have just changed his mind after noting his fans' reaction to him. In fact, look at the most recent popularity poll.

Bleach Character Popularity Poll 4 --Click here to view--

The picture only shows the top 5, but you can see that Grimmjow took 4th place, making him the most popular Arrancar character, and beating several other fan-favorites, when that poll was held. Admittedly, that popularity poll was done around the beginning of the Arrancar Arc, so I wouldn't be surprised if Nelliel or Ulquiorra took that title, were another poll to be held, but it definitely shows that he's a fan favorite in Japan. And with how Grimmjow left the plot (surviving Ichigo's coup de grace, getting blind-sided by Skinny Pants McCreepyface, and being shown as alive while being protected by Ichigo), I think there's a VERY good chance that he'll re-enter the plot . I mean, we saw how he seemed to feel some compulsion to help Orihime to pay her back for healing his arm, and how Ichigo saved him from Noitora's attack, so I think there's a GOLDEN opportunity for him to 'pay back' Ichigo when he's in yet another dire situation.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 17 November 2011 - 03:26 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

This is a response to a post by Zacrathedemon5 on another thread.


I tend to avoid mangaka interviews, considering the massive difference between English and Japanese, and how easy it is to mistranslate certain parts. Remember that infamous Naruto interview, where Hinata was revealed to be Kishi's new heroine, and Sakura was confirmed to be love with Sasuke and have no feelings whatsoever for Naruto?
Anyways, after I heard the rumor that Kubo 'confirmed' Grimmjow to be dead, I looked up the official interview. From what I can gather, it was from the 2011 SJ interview, the same one where Kubo claimed he could see the story going for another 10 years. Here are the parts of the interview relevant to Grimmjow.

SJ Interview 2011 - Grimmjow Comments --Click here to view--

I took this off the Bleach Wiki, so it might not be the best translation, but it seems pretty similar to the original translation I saw. Here is the page with all of Kubo interviews on it, so you can see the whole context of the interview if you want. Anyways, I sort of gleaned that basically Grimmjow was ORIGINALLY intended to die (I'm guessing during or right after the first Karakura fight, leading to Luppi probably being a more important character), but Kubo decided to expand his role. So as far as dying, it didn't really confirm anything other that it might have been Kubo's original intention to kill off Grimmjow. Considering that most of his character development occured once he got his arm back, I generally assume it was a case of Kubo changing his mind regarding his role in the plot.

Plus, with how popular Grimmjow was at the beginning of the Arrancar Arc, it seems very likely to me that Kubo could have just changed his mind after noting his fans' reaction to him. In fact, look at the most recent popularity poll.

Bleach Character Popularity Poll 4 --Click here to view--

The picture only shows the top 5, but you can see that Grimmjow took 4th place, making him the most popular Arrancar character, and beating several other fan-favorites, when that poll was held. Admittedly, that popularity poll was done around the beginning of the Arrancar Arc, so I wouldn't be surprised if Nelliel or Ulquiorra took that title, were another poll to be held, but it definitely shows that he's a fan favorite in Japan. And with how Grimmjow left the plot (surviving Ichigo's coup de grace, getting blind-sided by Skinny Pants McCreepyface, and being shown as alive while being protected by Ichigo), I think there's a VERY good chance that he'll re-enter the plot . I mean, we saw how he seemed to feel some compulsion to help Orihime to pay her back for healing his arm, and how Ichigo saved him from Noitora's attack, so I think there's a GOLDEN opportunity for him to 'pay back' Ichigo when he's in yet another dire situation.

Thank you for giving me hope that one of my two favorite Espadas might still be alive
(My number one favorite is Ulquiorra, in case you're curious, but he competed with Grimmjow for a long time for that position. For that, Grimmjow deserves praise )

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 17 November 2011 - 03:32 AM.

[Super Boom]

Thank you for giving me hope that one of my two favorite Espadas might still be alive
(My number one favorite is Ulquiorra, in case you're curious, but he competed with Grimmjow for a long time for that position. For that, Grimmjow deserves praise )

Ha ha no problem.

Ulquiorra's one of my favorites too, Grimmjow just interests me more I guess. I don't like to compare the way their individual characters are/were developed, though, since they're both so unique. Both are sort of painted a certain way, but at the same time had obvious care taken into showing an ulterior personality emerging.
With Grimmjow, I'd say it's a sort of chivalry and a sense of honor, that he might not even be aware of. Up until he helped Orihime, I guess he struck me as just a crazed mad-man, bent on destruction, as per the aspect the death he represents. But we clearly see that he feels some obligation to help Orihime, after she was ordered to heal his arm. It didn't seem necessary at all for him, seeing how she was their captive, and a lowly human on top of that. Then, if that wasn't odd enough, he orders her to heal herself, saying he doesn't want to carry around a girl with a 'smashed-up' face. Why would he care? She's just a human, and the state of her face wouldn't affect her ability to heal Ichigo. It definitely seems like part of him just doesn't like the idea of seeing an innocent girl injured (emphasis on innocent, considering what he did to Loly and Menoly right beforehand ). To me, this was obviously intended to be character development, and it would be utterly wasted if Grimmjow just died off-panel.
Plus, out of all the Espada (excluding Gantenbaine and Nelliel, if you count the former Espada), Grimmjow's fate in the actual manga was definitely the most open-ended, in my opinion. It wouldn't make sense to show Ichigo defending Grimmjow's half-conscious body, only to have him randomly die off-panel. I also think there's a big opening for further character development, when Kubo finally brings some of the Arrancar characters back. IMO, Grimmjow is one of Ichigo's greatest rivals in terms of personality. I know Ichigo has a LOT of rivals, obviously, but I think Grimmjow has the foundation to be Bleach's Vegeta, if that makes sense.

But anyways, Ulquiorra's also one of my favorites, I'm just generally a bigger fan of more energetic character types.

LOL, I gotta stop writing LAP's on this thread.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 17 November 2011 - 04:35 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

Chapter 474

So.... --Click here to view--

another "big" reveal? Wasn't that impactful to me. If I was Ichigo I'll go, "Oh yeah? So? BANKAI!" Oh wait he did exactly that.

[Phantom_999]

Saw that coming actually. The Bankai I mean

[peanutbutter126]

Chapter 474

So.... --Click here to view--

another "big" reveal? Wasn't that impactful to me. If I was Ichigo I'll go, "Oh yeah? So? BANKAI!" Oh wait he did exactly that.

Unfortunately, I second this reaction. Oh well, at least the arc's moving along.

[Kyuudaime]

Please let the new Bankai be.... new.

[Dreamer]

Chapter 475

Dat Ichigo!

[peanutbutter126]

Only just thought to catch up with the latest chapter now XD; I'm still missing the 'wow' factor about these latest chapters - i.e. nothing has really surprised me as much as Kubo's past works have - but I did find Renji's concern over Rukia adorable, pairing or not So I guess we shall now sit back and enjoy the big fight.

[Dreamer]

Jump Festa is on the 17th and also an interview from Kubo

http://www.jumpfesta...age/bleach.html

[peanutbutter126]

Next chapter's up.

Spoiler --Click here to view--

Is Ginjo finally down? If so, looks like we're very close to the end of this arc. I love that every time we see flashbacks from earlier chapters, we can see how the mangaka's art has changed. It's somewhat nostalgic, haha.

[Dreamer]

It's getting crowded in here --Click here to view--

[harry4e]

Chapter 477

Like always feels like a short chapter even though I think there were more pages than Naruto Manga.

Edited by harry4e, 14 December 2011 - 03:30 PM.

[alexander]

Oh, I do hope this is finally over, perhaps Kubo will have better luck on the next arc.

[Gravenimage]

Yep --Click here to view--

I agree that the chapter was short Kubo is making them shorter with every chapter.

[peanutbutter126]

Spoiler --Click here to view--

That should be the end of this arc. I liked Riruka here. That was a pretty big IchiRuki moment there too, at least to me. Even bigger if she'd taken the hit. But it was good of Kubo to put Riruka there. Looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next.

[harry4e]

Spoiler --Click here to view--

That should be the end of this arc. I liked Riruka here. That was a pretty big IchiRuki moment there too, at least to me. Even bigger if she'd taken the hit. But it was good of Kubo to put Riruka there. Looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next.

Actually --Click here to view--

Actually that was a IchiRiru scene, I originally thought it was Rukia who moved, but just look at her exp​ression, it's one of complete shock, her body moved on it's own accord, or more accurately Riruka's accord, who was unsurprisingly possesing Rukia.

Next week looks like we get another flashback, i'm not sure how I feel about Kubo's need to give every single person a flashback, this one should be okay as it will hopefully explain why the shinigami went rogue and why Ginjo was wanted dead by SS.

Edited by harry4e, 15 December 2011 - 11:52 PM.