A little help with honorifics please!
#1
Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:11 AM
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com See, I am the Ero-sanin!
#2
Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:08 AM
Examples which cause confusion:
Ranma, from Ranma 1/2, is called 'Ranma-chan' when female, and sometimes is called 'Ranma-kun' when male. Some people have been under the impression this was because 'chan' was exclusively female and 'kun' exclusively male, but this is not so. Rather, it is because Ranma, as a female, is in a diminutive form from his normal state. 'Chan' is an honorific given to those who are younger, diminutive (small, usually), and 'cute.' Women often call their boyfriends and each other 'chan.' Boys often call their girlfriends and any younger girl 'chan.'
Examples which point to proper usage:
In Kimagure Orange Road, Kyousuke often calls Madoka 'Ayukawa-kun' and Hikaru 'Hikaru-chan.' Hikaru would call Yuusuke 'Yuusuke-san' or occasionally 'Yuu-kun.' Madoka would call Kasuge Kyousuke 'Kasuga-san.' The Kun that Kyousuke uses with Madoka implies that he greatly honors her, despite being her equal, and is familiar with her. The 'san' she uses in reply does not mean that she honors him less or is less familiar with him, but rather that he used it first. Kyousuke's use of 'Hikaru-chan' has nothing to do with affection (although others might assume so, which is partly why everyone assumes the two of them are dating, which further encourages Hikaru's attentions) but rather because she is a younger familiar female. Hikaru's use of 'Yuu-kun' implies familiarity, but in this case the 'honor' is solely because he is a familiar male while she is a female of otherwise equal rank -- the abbreviation of his name negates the extra honor. She is actually being more polite to him calling him 'Yuusuke-san,' but 'Yuu-kun' is not an insult any more then a girl calling her boyfriend 'chan' would be -- rather, it is a 'burriko' (the term for the sickeningly cute behavior that many Japanese men are attracted to -- examples that won't necessarily sicken you include Yuriko in You're Under Arrest, Keiko in Full Metal Panic, and... well, I'm not sure of any others. Most other anime examples include Hikaru-chan from KOR, Asuza Shirunai from Ranma, and C-ko from Project A-ko) characteristic. Not exclusive to 'burriko' girls, mind, but a common form of address.
Yes, it's incredibly complex. Trust me, I've been studying it for about a decade, now (as long as I've been into anime), and I've had native Japanese to talk to about it (my half-Japanese half-brother's half-brothers... which means I have no relation to them, but I call them my 'quasi-brothers' just to annoy them), and even I occasionally find new things out about when certain forms of address are appropriate or not.
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#3
Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:10 AM
#4
Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:27 AM
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com See, I am the Ero-sanin!
#5
Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:36 AM
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#6
Posted 06 May 2006 - 08:38 PM
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com See, I am the Ero-sanin!
#7
Posted 06 May 2006 - 11:52 PM
#8
Posted 07 May 2006 - 02:46 AM
#9
Posted 08 May 2006 - 02:37 AM
Good choice.
While Naruto could call Sasuke "-kun", it would be really out of character to do so. A. Because he knows him so well ("-kun" is slightly formal) and B. Naruto doesn't think of him in that way. ("-kun" alludes to a certain level of respect)
I could only see Naruto using -kun on Sasuke if he was making fun of him.
#10
Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:46 AM
#11
Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:53 AM
In the past, it also used to take the place of -sama whenever a normal person was talking to a member of the royalty or nobility. The end of an official Japanese nobility has largely eliminated its usage, however. I imagine 'dono' is used in Naruto with a bit more frequency, though, because other obsolescent forms of address (Sakura calling Tsunade Tsunade-shishou) still exist, as well.
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#12
Posted 08 May 2006 - 04:09 AM
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com See, I am the Ero-sanin!
#13
Posted 28 May 2006 - 05:08 PM
#14
Posted 28 May 2006 - 05:15 PM
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#15
Posted 28 May 2006 - 07:50 PM
The familiarity aspect is of course true. It's the reason why so many girls have adopted it as a way to refer to their boyfriends/boys they like.
#16
Posted 28 May 2006 - 08:06 PM
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#17
Posted 28 May 2006 - 08:58 PM
In Naruto, the people who refer to Sasuke with -kun are doing so because of his rank (Kakashi, etc), or because they want to endear themselves to him, or think they already have (Sakura, Ino, etc.).
This is true in real life too, as many teachers will refer to their male students with -kun. You'll notice everyone who uses it for Sasuke also uses it for Naruto (with the exception of Sakura and Ino). Truthfully, though he may have come from a higher clan, he had no standing in it yet, and it doesn't even exist anymore, so that wouldn't enter into it at all.
In Ranma, Kasumi uses it because she's polite, and Ranma's her guest. She uses it because he's younger than her, so therefore stands slightly lower, but still deserves respect, and because she's familiar with him. If she didn't know him very well or at all, she'd probably call him "Ranma-san", or evern "Saotome-san".
I haven't seen KOR yet, so I can't comment on that one.
#18
Posted 28 May 2006 - 09:36 PM
But I'm NOT using anime as a SOURCE, exactly, but rather as an example to confirm a source I cannot present. My sources are native Japanese speakers (my half-Japanese half-brother's wholly Japanese half-brothers, aka my quasi-brothers), who I've been asking questions like this about for almost ten years now, but since I can't put you in touch with them directly I'm pulling anime-based examples to show where the usage matches what they've told me.
I can see what you're saying with regards to Sasuke, but I don't see it as exactly countering my point. I admit, I didn't know about -kun being used by teachers to their students, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I think I'll call this one a wash.
As far as Ranma goes... age is only one factor in determining where someone 'stands.' Ranma is the firstborn son of a family of equal stature as Kasumi's (whereas Kasumi is the firstborn daughter), and is a male -- therefore, he should be equal to Kasumi socially (the fact that he is a male overcoming the fact that he's a few years younger in Japan's patriarchal society). However, he is a familiar and a guest, so he deserves a slightly higher honor.
In KOR, the male lead character (Kasuga Kyousuke) actually has a monologue where he says he is referring to the female lead character (Ayukawa Madoka) by 'Ayukawa-kun' because he feels that, even though they are both junior high school students (and therefore technically equals, although she comes from a higher class family), she always seems so much more mature then he feels. (Edit: I pulled the DVDs out of storage and rewatched that scene, specifically. It's technically possible, I suppose, that he was referring to the fact that he was using her family name rather then which honorific he was using. However, it could also be referring to the -kun, and it seems to me to make more sense if he was referring to both parts of the name (both the family name and the honorific) then just if he was referring to calling her by her family name. At any rate, I don't see it as possible he could be using the -kun because she was socially inferior in any way)
Again, I am not citing the anime as a source, precisely, but rather as evidence that my sources are correct.
You haven't experienced the full cofusion of modern gender relations until you've heard an angry group of women yelling, "We want tentacles!" at an all-night Hentai-fest.
-Tonbo
You can find my original fiction, facebook, twitter, and other ways to contact me on my website, FennecFoxPress.com
#19
Posted 29 May 2006 - 01:21 AM
/l、
(゚、 。 7 ~Meow :3 (Hey there pretty little kitty.)
l、 ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ
#20
Posted 29 May 2006 - 02:07 AM
As for people you're close to, that's a fairly accurate description most of the time.
As for desaix's last example, it occurs to me that you can use -kun for people you look up to, even if they're not technically higher than you. Generally when a girl/woman is referred to with -kun, there's some subtle deeper meaning in there somewhere on the part of the speaker, though it's hard to always pinpoint what that is. Case in point, and breaking my own advice by resorting to anime for an example, nearly everyone in Fruits Basket refers to Tohru as "Tohru-kun", yet there's no real reason for this. They just do.
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