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In regards to Kurenai's father's comment


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#1 sardns

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 06:49 AM

Before I say anything, this isn't me going "omg, that wuz soooo sexist naruto is ruined FOREVER". In fact, it's quite the opposite. Why does everyone keep insisting that Kurenai's father telling her to stay behind is so sexist? Her father told her to stay behind because sending the young generation into a battle like that would waste the village's greatest asset, AND as a woman, she could help bring about the next generation, again the villages greatest asset and something they hold with reverence. It's not like he was demanding her to become a baby-making machine; there are several women in this series with no children. Plus, the boys her age had to stay behind. I know women in this series aren't as involved in battles as much as they could be, but people are acting like this is the most sexist thing since pre-women's suffrage. You want to complain about girls not fighting? Go watch Dragon Ball Z (I'm not a DBZ hater, but it is what it is).

#2 ciardha

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 03:16 PM

Thank you! I am a feminist (and a daughter of feminist as well) and I read it the same way. And thank you as well about the whole fighting thing. Frankly, the shonen manga that have women fighting all the time are the ones that do more sexual objectification- clothing- if you can call it that, that looks like S&M wear or from a porno, etc... And outside of the fighting they are basically arm candy for the male characters- no thanks! Kishimoto actually shows as much respect for his female characters as his male. That is far more important.
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#3 Cloud

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 03:57 PM

QUOTE (sardns @ Sep 11 2010, 02:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You want to complain about girls not fighting? Go watch Dragon Ball Z (I'm not a DBZ hater, but it is what it is).


But then the DBZ villains were really overpowered...

Videl got beaten pretty roughly during the Budokai. She kicked the man's head around!

#4 sardns

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (ciardha @ Sep 11 2010, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank you! I am a feminist (and a daughter of feminist as well) and I read it the same way. And thank you as well about the whole fighting thing. Frankly, the shonen manga that have women fighting all the time are the ones that do more sexual objectification- clothing- if you can call it that, that looks like S&M wear or from a porno, etc... And outside of the fighting they are basically arm candy for the male characters- no thanks! Kishimoto actually shows as much respect for his female characters as his male. That is far more important.


You're welcome. I'm glad someone else gets my point.

#5 Daniee

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 05:20 PM

It kind of seems to me like more people these days just like riding a moral high horse and call out things like sexism at every opportunity.

People who called it out in that scene must also have a problem with the "women and children first" practice, I guess.

#6 Kamina-Yoshi

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Daniee @ Sep 11 2010, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
People who called it out in that scene must also have a problem with the "women and children first" practice, I guess.


I have a solution to that problem: transgender children go absolutely first. That way, male and female plus child is put first no matter what.
[/horridly_kittenish_joke]

But, yeah, I was wondering also if people also thought Naruto was racist since no one of significant color was in before Killer Bee.


#7 Mik3

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE (Kamina-Yoshi @ Sep 11 2010, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a solution to that problem: transgender children go absolutely first. That way, male and female plus child is put first no matter what.
[/horridly_kittenish_joke]



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Anyway yes, people nitpick the hell out of this particular manga in general.
\

#8 K9ofChaos

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 11:54 PM

I always thought that the people who nitpick anything from this series where a bunch of Novanator wannabes. They'll nitpick anything they see in the manga and make fun of it no matter what. It's almost as if they're fishing for bad writing or prejudice overtones. I don't really understand the Naruto fanbase. confused.gif



@ciardha I'm sure there's anime out there with women fighting all the time as much as men but without skimpy, sexual, revealing outfits like you said. At least I hope so. err.gif

Edited by K9ofChaos, 11 September 2010 - 11:55 PM.


#9 ciardha

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:55 AM

QUOTE (K9ofChaos @ Sep 11 2010, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@ciardha I'm sure there's anime out there with women fighting all the time as much as men but without skimpy, sexual, revealing outfits like you said. At least I hope so. err.gif


In shoujo, yep. The girls tend to have short outfits, but not overly sexualized, basically stylized school uniforms- even in Sailor Moon other than the Starlights, the uniforms looked like conservative ice skating costumes.

Edited by ciardha, 12 September 2010 - 01:55 AM.

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#10 sardns

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE (K9ofChaos @ Sep 11 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always thought that the people who nitpick anything from this series where a bunch of Novanator wannabes. They'll nitpick anything they see in the manga and make fun of it no matter what. It's almost as if they're fishing for bad writing or prejudice overtones. I don't really understand the Naruto fanbase. confused.gif


Yeah, no kidding. It seems about half the fanbase loves to partake in petty nitpicking with this series; it deserves more respect than that. That's why I came to this site because the people here don't complain that Naruto is getting worse with every chapter.

#11 Cloud

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE (ciardha @ Sep 11 2010, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In shoujo, yep. The girls tend to have short outfits, but not overly sexualized, basically stylized school uniforms- even in Sailor Moon other than the Starlights, the uniforms looked like conservative ice skating costumes.


But then they go naked to change. It's silhouetted, but still, they're naked.

Still not sexualized?

#12 ciardha

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 02:13 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Sep 11 2010, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But then they go naked to change. It's silhouetted, but still, they're naked.

Still not sexualized?


That was for the anime, it's not in the original manga, nor the musicals or the live action show (all other than the anime that Naoko Takeuchi had much more a say in how things would be done.) It's an anime cliche- born from the old shonen anime Cutey-Honey. I was thinking of the manga. When even a shoujo series is animated the companies introduce those kind of things into the stories, unlike with manga, where there are about as many women as men creators, anime companies still tend to be mostly male run, with mostly male artists.

Edited by ciardha, 12 September 2010 - 02:18 AM.

Dream you dream alone is only a dream, but dream we dream together is reality- Yoko Ono 1971

When you go to war, both sides lose totally- Yoko Ono

Remember, our hearts are one. Even when we are at war with each other, our hearts are always beating in unison- Yoko Ono 2009

#13 Derock

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 03:15 AM

QUOTE (sardns @ Sep 11 2010, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, no kidding. It seems about half the fanbase loves to partake in petty nitpicking with this series; it deserves more respect than that. That's why I came to this site because the people here don't complain that Naruto is getting worse with every chapter.


Everybody does this and we can't complain about it. Its their opinion (plus fan fantasies). Around me, many people think Naruto is not great, despite the fact its popularity is the same level Dragonball did here in the States (talking about DBZ, in general) Reasons? The story is too complicated, since Kishimoto is working on a subject which is a complication itself and majority doesn't even interpret what Kishimoto is writing through his characters; people see the story is following certain "shonen stereotypes" (I found this fact on the American reviews, both for the manga and animes), it can also applies to the characters, especially towards Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura and Hinata. Majority of the fans (especially the male audience) loves action, action, ACTION! so compare this towards another popular series, One Piece is an excellent example, they will drop Naruto like a fly (unless a big action scene is coming) because it either isn't near DBZ quality or western comic book like Superman, Batman or X-Men standard. Point of why I said that is because Naruto's fights, while have a lot of fantasy/supernatural elements, are mostly in a realistic action path, according to Kishimoto's POV. Many forget Naruto is also a drama-genre story.

Ok... I think I went a little offtopic but...

I think this "Kurenai's father" comment is not even an issue. Some person probably became mad because he/she thought in a worse misinterpretation that Kurenai was told to "don't fight, stay home and take care of the kids ala 50s era!" I'm just glad there are enough strong women in action stories such as Naruto and Bleach instead of being just only background characters with some single purpose of a plot.

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#14 Dreamer

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 03:30 AM

I'm glad Mashima has Erza from Fairy Tail and it seems Kishi has done a good job with Kushina and Konan as well. biggrin.gif Hopefully Kishi will show and developed Mei more too. pictureem0.gif While i think both Kishi and Kubo have made Orihime and Sakura great healers to take care of the rest of the team while fighting.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 12 September 2010 - 03:33 AM.


#15 KungFuTruffle

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 03:54 AM

I'm one of those people that had a problem with this scene, but it's not because of keeping her out of the fight or because he told her to have kids. It's the way it was written.

To people that can read deeper into the situation, it's pretty easy to tell how much Kurenai's father cared about her safety, and telling her to have kids is basically him saying that having kids was the best thing he'd done with his life. A sentiment I'm sure many people would share.

But on the surface, it comes off as very crass, as if he's saying that her only role as a Konoha kunoichi is to have children.

It just wasn't written very well. It didn't help that it was somewhat shoehorned in during the flashback.

... Come to think of it, how on earth did Kushina know what everyone was doing that night? She was having flashbacks for other people! That's not right!

#16 Derock

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 04:25 AM

QUOTE (KungFuTruffle @ Sep 11 2010, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... Come to think of it, how on earth did Kushina know what everyone was doing that night? She was having flashbacks for other people! That's not right!


Technically it isn't a flashback for that little scene (same applies for seeing young Kakashi and Guy and young Iruka seeing his parents go to battle before getting killed by the Kyuubi) its more of a glimpse of the events for readers to know of what had truly happened during the Kyuubi attack and how Naruto became a Jinchuuriki and why.

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#17 shadow_Uzumaki

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:09 PM

To be frank, I'd have rather let the people who would probably be offended, that is you, ladies, speak out first. If they're not offended, then why should we cry out, "SEXISM, SEXISM!" in the first place.... Now that you have said it wasn't, time to move on.
I do agree with truffle saying it was written awkwardly though.

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:23 AM

What everyone else said. Besides, I'd imagine the generation before Kakashi's and Kurenai's was more conservative than what we see now. The old man probably wanted his bloodline to continue, and assuming Kurenai was his only child, he could have said those words to a son as well.

QUOTE
I have a solution to that problem: transgender children go absolutely first. That way, male and female plus child is put first no matter what.

laugh.gif

QUOTE
But, yeah, I was wondering also if people also thought Naruto was racist since no one of significant color was in before Killer Bee.


Naruto was racially ambiguous in the beginning (unlike Avatar the Last Airbender), and I'd imagine most people weren't expecting a "diverse" cast in the first place. The black ninjas in Kumo are really the only ones that seem to have an indisputable race, everyone else could be anything (and I have to admit, the evidence for Naruto being white is pretty damning...)

QUOTE
Yeah, no kidding. It seems about half the fanbase loves to partake in petty nitpicking with this series; it deserves more respect than that. That's why I came to this site because the people here don't complain that Naruto is getting worse with every chapter.

To be fair, we do have quite a few people here who have fallen out of love with the series. But they're nice about it, express their opinions quite well and don't impede on others enjoyment of it. They only come to chapter/episode topics when something really significant happens, and are mature enough to avoid typing their opinions in capital letters.

Overtime, I've come to realize that Naruto cannot be judged on a chapter-to-chapter basis. Sometimes entire arcs cannot be judged correctly until we're midway in the next. There were several times where I was uncertain of the things Kishi puts in his manga, only to look back and like most of it. I also cannot understand why some people think Naruto has become cliche, yet every now and then someone goes "WHY DID HE DO THIS!?" That was a prominent complaint in the last arc, particularly where Sakura was concerned. Obviously, if you haven't been liking the last several arcs, I think it's safe to say this manga will not go the way you want it to. But this is not the typical shonen in the sense that each arc is for the most part self-contained; Naruto really makes sure every arc is connected.

QUOTE
To be frank, I'd have rather let the people who would probably be offended, that is you, ladies, speak out first. If they're not offended, then why should we cry out, "SEXISM, SEXISM!" in the first place.... Now that you have said it wasn't, time to move on.
I do agree with truffle saying it was written awkwardly though.

To be fair, anyone can be part of an offended group and express an opinion against their interest. It's best to find people who are EDUCATED on the particular matter rather than seeking out a majority of people you think will or should be offended. It's certainly possible for a man to know more about feminism then some women (not that I know of any) or for whites to know more about racism then some individuals of various ethnic groups. etc. It really depends on the individual's life experiences and what they were raised to believe.

In regards to the females fighting, Kishimoto did admit he had trouble coming up with good roles for female characters. But that being said, it looks pretty clear to me that he wants to make strong female characters and give them good roles. I used to think Konan was wasted, but then she comes back and comes closer to defeating Madara than even Minato did, giving me a new sense of respect for her. Kishimoto didn't have much incentive to create another female kage, but went and did it anyway, and she has shown no hints of being a healer. A lot of fans were disappointed when Tsunade did not fight Pain, but she was prepared to fight Deva realm and knew how to counter his attacks; in other words, he was afraid of her, and used Shinra Tensei to obliterate the village, forcing Tsunade to use all of her strength towards protecting as much of the villagers as possible.

Some have also speculated that Kishi has retired Sakura from fighting and will focus strictly on her healing abilities. I do have to admit, I was nervous about that happening, but Konan's final part has certainly made me optomistic. The Kage Summit arc wasn't meant to give Sakura another fight, it was more to confront the past and face the future, the former being the time when she was weak. It most likely become the stepping stone that will give her a more active role. When Sakura said the only thing left to do was to believe in Naruto, many thought that was essentially a sugary way of saying "I'm going to sit this out." But it's most likely that she meant that she will trust Naruto to be the one to save Sasuke from his own hatred, and that it's Naruto's fight. She's not going to just sit back and let him risk facing other opponents if she can help it. She will certainly have no trouble fighting other opponents within her realm of expertise and anyone that's not Sasuke. Not to mention, her role in the battle between Naruto and Sasuke will likely be to save them both from dying.

My two cents on the issue.




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