Bail o' Lies

If the Disney Princesses met Hinata, what would they say to her?

Well seeing that all of them have that true love boyfriend bit they would be sympathetic to her having feeling for a boy, then they would be bewildered by the fact that she barely interacted with him for over fifteen years, and then as the learn more and more about the situation (Naruto's childhood, Sakura, Sasuke, and so on) would leave them completely flummox.

I get what your saying. But I'm thinking more along the lines of Kishimoto was 20 when he started, unmarried, young and didn't care about families, even as he wrote about them. There's a big difference between him then and now — 40s with kids and taking the long view of life. Couple that with some social mores and the fact that Hinata is very much represents a popular Japanese ideal that is scattered all over anime and manga, then I can see why Kishimoto may have just shrugged and said 'eh, either one.' I don't think he ever cared about shipping, Hinata seemed just as good as Sakura (and didn't make waves as much as Sakura did), and an NH ending is 'going out with a surprise' that then launched the new era with the kids. I think that the part where he based Sakura off his wife was nice and probably true. But in the end, NH was better for the extending of the series and more well-received by those around him and in Japan. 

 

I just think that — with some distance from the ending — there are more reasons for him to turn to NH than I originally realized. 

I don't disagree that Kishimoto is a different man after 15 years. For example, in part one we had things like infants used to store demons, mutations, crushing people with sand, people using their spines as whips, and so on. While in part two the most frequent new power was variations of magnetic powers by the end.

But like I said it is unlikely he did it for that birth rate problem, and even in his interviews where he was suppose to talk up and go on about how great Hinata was all he could really say was either he didn't get why she was so popular or people like her because she supported Naruto since the being (or her breast). But him stating he didn't understand Hinata's appeal was by far the more frequent response when asked. His shrug was more "well that's what the fans want", then "I can see why the fans would like her." 

As for the people around him the people that supported nH considered it brilliant, while the people that thought NS was going to happen were at least very surprised, but the most important reaction was always going to be from the fans since they're justification for the switch; because they believe that is what the fans wanted. At the very least the reaction they got was not what they were hoping.

You know, for a person who claims to been taught the ins and outs of industry by a literary genius, She is painfully unaware how the industry actually works.

"And last, after understanding Japanese culture a little better, and know that he's been writing this for f20 years, I honestly think that Kishimoto himself changed. And in the end, he wanted Naruto to have a traditional Japanese wife like Hinata. Very sweet, and very much focused on the family — something that is of large concern in Japanese society right now with the well-publicized downturn in population. Sakura was a role-breaker. As was Naruto originally. That's why they were both so perfect together. But in the end, neither of them broke out of their traditional roles. Naruto didn't usher in massive changes, instead returning to be a leader like his father. And Sakura returned to become a housewife, with no word of a career outside of housekeeping."

I must disagree with this part, for one thing simply because of which character he based off his wife. Naruto was based off him, and Sakura was at least original based off the type of girl he liked but eventually his wife once he met her. His problems with his family are from him not being around for so many years because of working on Naruto. Not a desire to find a big breasted submissive mistress to abscond with.

Also again you're thinking nH happening has to do with Japan's declining birth rate problem instead of what it really was; an appeal to the otaku and international parts of the fanbase (who as far as they knew all loved nH.) If it was to convince the Japanese population to get married and have children; then why did kishimoto never say that in his interviews? It would have been better then constantly stating he didn't understand why Hinata was so popular. Also if this was to convince them to have more children why do all the family except nH (because the daughter exist because they wanted to confirm in chapter 700 yes hinata and Naruto got together) have only one child each? A single child per family is still a declining population. From what I recall every family need to have at least 2.5 (some number like that) child per family to have a stable population.

Three years since the ending, really? I actually forgot when it ended.

Three years and we're still at the exact point we were three years ago. Did the anime team not advance the gaiden burrito whatever the crap it's called at all?

In a month it will be three years.

Yep. They will barely progress pass the gaiden by that point but they won't be near the final graduation exam so they can still have academy filler, and the manga is a NeverEnding prologue. 

We're still at the bloody prologue of the manga and SP just keeps churning out filler after filler to keep the anime fans invested until the plot can actually advance(which it never will, the manga writer seems to be in a creative slump and doesn't seem to have a cohesive plot in mind beyond borrowing previous plot points from Naruto).  

The barely existing plot that they have is just copying the Naruto/Sasuke conflict with Bolt & Nail. I won't consider the manga to be passed it prologue until Nail kills Naruto.

You know is it sad that his one shot Mario has a better premise from start to finish with believable characters than his long running series Naruto.

That's because Kishimoto had one chapter to tell a story, and didn't need to extend it. Kishimoto is good at tell an initial story but is terrible at having it continue to have effect after its over (follow through on story lines); especially with his editors after Yahagi. With the gaiden and the Boruto movie both told the same plot well enough about dealing with their daddy issues and finding a role model/father figure in another man. The only difference is no one likes Bolt.  Most characters after their little story is done basically live in the background. The only really important characters were Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, (in the anime and after the ending Hinata,) and Shikamaru. Though granted it could be argued that Iruka (the three or four times he is in the story), Might Guy(because of being Kakashi's rival), Lee (in part one), Killer Bee (in the war arc), and Gaara (whenever he is around) were also important secondary characters.

Also you have that tea/apple juice thing where if he needs to change his characters to fit his plot he will do so:

 Sasuke's story ended once he killed Itachi. He should have went on to find peace with him self by himself, but that removed the final Naruto/Sasuke fight Kishimoto wanted. So he remained an avenger till Naruto beat him then went on his redemption quest.

  Sakura lost her story of getting over Sasuke, finding her own strength and falling in love in with Naruto, when Kishimoto heard she wasn't very popular. That was over.

  Naruto's quest to become hokage was sidetracked by the hunt for Sasuke in part two, then he got sick of writing Naruto and agree to let Hinata have the ending if he could end the manga.

It's a way to excuse the sequel by simply saying something that doesn't need explanation. Terminator 3 happened with simply saying "You only postponed." It disregard the purpose of part 2. So here, it's like it's disregarding Naruto.

I think I said this in another topic but Bolt has no story. Remember kishimoto had only given him two plots: his daddy issues with Naruto and his apprenticeship with Sasuke, both that were completed by the end of the movie. Sasuke could literally just drag Bolt on a journey to train him, and that could be the end of the story right there. I am not joking. That why those clowns made Nail to give Bolt his own "Sasuke" in order to reenact Naruto's final battle with Bolt & Nail, because they don't have an overarching plot without it (which also may be the reason they revealed/spoiled it in the first chapter; to give the story an actual plot.)

^For years I've asked myself why does it have to be studio Pierot to have Naruto's right's? When there are so many studios way better, not to mention they're not biased and obsessed with characters who are completely not important to the story. I could have imagine Naruto if it's Bones, Gonzo, White Fox any other studio asides from Pierot who got their hands on the rights of Naruto. 

  When Naruto had manage to pass the hurdle of not getting cancel by it first couple chapters, and they saw it as having potential. Shueisha started planning on having an anime to maximize profits; like they do with all their manga that survive early cancellation. So they went around to anime companies seeing which one wanted to buy the right to product the Naruto anime. SP was the one that bought it. They are close with Shueisha. They did shows for them before like Yu Yu hakusho. So they were probably on the of the first studios that they asked. Now they have the right to product the Naruto anime and (apparently) their spin offs.

What manga are you reading? She was always every single one of those things you listed. She never got past her shyness. Hell, just based off what I've seen of Boruto, she's still the EXACT same as she was when she was first introduced. Oh, wait, I get it. She grew her hair out. Massive bonus points for that. (Not really)

She also gotten even larger kittens until they got a new artist for the manga that shrunk them down which had her fanbase in a rage. Also remember in the last the movie that is about the love story of nH, but Hinata gave up once she thought Naruto got a scarf from someone else. It was up to Sakura to push those two together, that was her role in the movie, since Hinata failed to do it for over 15 years.

Yeah that's true. I feel better after hearing your comments I just don't want Black Clover ruined  because it is now owne of my top favourites, and with what SP did to Naruto I am skeptical of their "intentions", but thinking about it they can't afford another kitten up lest they become bankrupt, So I will hope  the best with the Black Clover anime but if i see the SLIGHTEST bit of BS like with Naruto, I'm not watching anymore and will strictly stick to the manga  As in like making Mimosa more important than she actually is and teasing her more with Asta in scenes that were never there in the manga, and kittening on Noelle actually personality by exaggerating her tsundere traits. Stuff like that

The problem is they can't afford to, because it is so similar to Naruto. Shueisha is expecting this to be something SP can handle. If they can't it; then Shueisha is going to be looking over their relationship, and at best they won't be given anymore shounen action series for a while. Also the one major saving grace is their is no girl that they can drool over that they can make their focus in the anime. Yes Nana has the drunk girl but to be honest anytime I heard she gotten a new role since Naruto ended it not been a moe. I have a theory that she wants to avoid doing those roles so she can't steal the spotlight again and get blame for ruining another series like she is with Toriko and Naruto. Also they may have left their Hinata obsessed people in Boruto and made sure that the people brought on well adapt Black Clover properly so they don't destroy it because some jack ass likes the cousin more then Noelle.

 

Which kind of goes into what I'm saying. That the mainstream anime that get the most attention are the ones that cater to people's crude and base senses. Fanservice, unrealistic characters that can act like a total perv and/or jerk with little to no consequence, and fight scenes that although may be intense well-choreographed and epic are between characters that are written so mediocre that we have no investment in them at all so we don't care, all take precedence over story and character development

 

Again my hypothesis that it's the studios doing this to cater to Western audiences is just that: a hypothesis that I can't exactly prove. After all a lot of times Japanese creators and studios well don't exactly have American fans at the top of their priorities. Like seriously how many games have come out over there but have never been brought over here? But as anime is becoming less of a niche and more commonplace in America, and American film studios have even taken their stab at making movies based off of anime series. Movies that are not too bad I might add. (Course I also have to add that said movies are decent on their own but in terms of being adaptations they fail on so many levels and oh yeah white people...but I digress). So the idea that maybe they're looking to appeal to this crowd of American fans who don't exactly have the highest of tastes would just make sense from a business perspective

 

Like I said before I can't say this is a fact but this is the only logical conclusion I can come up with

The thing is most Japanese products are Japanese centric. They only send out stuff internationally if they know/hope its a success. Either it a series that made it big from one big success that they then keep sending out in hopes the international fanbase will love it as well and make them more money, or they think it good enough that they think that if they sell it internationally they will then be able to make the product like the first group eventually. Naruto's ending was a rare case where they decided to focus on the international fanbase over their Japanese one, but that was because they had always seen Naruto as more of a International money maker then a Japanese one, and there were sympathetic ears that worked in those companies that wanted Hinata to win..

Hey Analyzer answer this question; "Why are Shueisha officially saying that they want Black Clover to be the next Naruto? When they currently have an anime out right now about the son of Naruto?"

https://twitter.com/...134234209316864

So I was completely right. Well that means they will try pushing it internationally once out of the gate in hopes that it will hit the same audience that Naruto did. Also more proof everyone know what a kitten-show Boruto is; since "why should Black Clover be the next Naruto? When they have a manga about the son of Naruto?"

The POV shift is extremely difficult for the people that have been following the series for a long time. It had 15 years and now Naruto is nothing but a plot device.

I haven't seen a lot of people sympathizing with Burrito so I guess their plan didn't work. He comes of as spoiled and aggressive and from his own POV he's portrayed negatively as a character. There's no quality that makes him easy to root for.

The problem is that people have been following and sympathizing with Naruto for almost 18 years now (the anime only ended recently). But now Boruto wants us to think Naruto is now the worst father that has ever existed, and use that as a way for us to like Bolt. The problem is that put them in competition with each-other to see which one people agree with; "the Father that was well loved for almost 15 years or his whiny brat of a son that we have suffered through for almost three years at this point?" So most people are just going to see Naruto as caring father but is busy and overworked, while they see Bolt as a spoiled whiny brat. Not help by the anime staff making sure Naruto doesn't come off as apathetic/neglectful -since that means he apathetic/neglecting the pairing they worked so hard to make happen- so Bolt comes off as a even more spoiled brat. Also the fact that we have already seen the resolution to this story makes it even more of a chore to sit through.

But that is also countered by the fact that there is an even worst father then Naruto in this story; Sasuke. Who Bolt worships because he's so cool, despite the fact that he literally never visited his family for over ten years. That if Naruto even thought of doing it Bolt would never stop whining about it, but if it's Sasuke then its OK. The thing is that the gaiden was so incredibly good at making people like Salad, which included making her interact heavily with Naruto, us not seeing her whine about her daddy issue every time she onscreen, and the fact that it was resolved in one story and not drawn out or redone over and over again like it is with Bolt. So all this does is make people like Salad more then bolt and wish she was the main character, even people that hate Boruto.

It's also not help by the fact that Bolt doesn't have an interesting goal or story after the chunin exam. At the start of the movie he has his daddy issues, and he wants to become Sasuke's disciple, by the end he has made up with his father and is Sasuke's disciple. At the end of the movie he and Sasuke could have just gone off on a journey and they story could end right there. That's why they had to give him a his own "Sasuke" with Nail, cause they don't have a plot for Bolt otherwise.

Based on the kind of comments I was reading in the "What if Naruto married Sakura" video, the Naruto fandom is mostly kool-aid drinking cancer at this point. Pathetic and disgusting comments all around. As a result, Boruto is not the series the Naruto fandom needs, but the one it deserves.

Most of the fans that aren't "the ending is perfect" people have left already. It has been three years and nH fanatics have been more then happy to drive non believers out. Sadly true, but it also the fanbase Boruto deserve since they don't pay for anything.

Look the guy up on ratemyprofessor. He's a Florida university smug elitist @sshole who basically tells his students how wrong they are about their stories and that they must write them the way he wants them to write them or receive an F. His class appears to consist of a self indulgent writers workshops where you get to learn about how great he is.

 

http://www.ratemypro....jsp?tid=470484

A man known for only making a spin off (which most people never heard of) of other people work has an inflated ego who would have thought?

That answers alot.

It sadly does more then it should.

Having graduated from undergrad and law school, I've had my fair share of these kinds of professors and have found all of them to be blowhards who teach for their own self-glorification. And given some of what you've explained to us here about how well NH was fleshed out in the Naruto manga and how it has zero retcons/plotholes, I think you might wanna get a refund on Mr. Winegardner's course curriculum and instead apply for a good internship somewhere that'll give you actual on-the-job experience as opposed to listening to some elitist nut who will actually give you a failing grade because he doesn't like your story. If J.K Rowling can go from living on the streets to being a billionaire as a result of writing Harry Potter, then one can go a long ways without listening to pompous blowhards like Mark Winegardner.

Sadly that's why I never doubted that she has been to college. Since she comes off as one of those wide eyed people that believe everything their teacher says without applying any critical thinking. They normally believe that they are always right because they are saying the same thing the professor taught them, which makes them woefully unprepared for handling other viewpoints. Since they can't see why someone especially if that person is intelligent can have a different stance then them, and feel they then need to "educate" the person on what the "correct viewpoint" is.

I read most of her posts, but I disagree with some. But that involves an essay, and I don't want to get into it really. Sorry, I feel like people misunderstood my post. I mean you are absolutely right, people have the freedom to voice an opinion. But my comment was mainly referring to how quickly some disown her as not being a NaruSaku fan for sharing unlikable opinions.

Like I mention above her comments, before moderators intervene, most of the time seems condescending...I don't like that.

I noticed how quickly people thought and assumed she was just db come again. Which I did defend against as well as did point out that she is different then and even now. The problem is she really has no stance other then "I'm right because the ending was nH/SS, and I believe I'm better educated then all of you." In a debate/discussion all people are doing is explaining (and defending) their point of view on a subject. Hopefully both sides if the viewpoints are radically different come to an understanding then both agree to disagree. Sadly there is little to be have of that when even one side believe they are entirely right and the other is entirely wrong.

^You actyally made an interesting point there. I don't agree with it but it made me think of something. Since being Hokage was Naruto's dream he obviously won't be a lazyass about it, but I'd much rather see him sacrifice his family for important hokage work(like him trying to find solutions how to protect the village from Boruto's antagonists) rather than papers we as readers know little about. It'd make the situation much more sympathetic, and we'd understand Naruto. This is why Analyzer's assumption that Naruto is *trying* to balance work and family falls empty. It's all a guess and there are many reasons to not believe it. Their family issues were uneeded and put in just because Kishi or whoever is in charge wanted family issues.

The problem with that is that the story shown so far is that Naruto is both a terrible parent (since Bolt is the protagonist we are suppose to sympathize with, and be on his side), and at best overwhelm by his role as hokage (through his behavior as well as other things such as how the story and the characters treat him).

Just look at Boruto: Naruto Next Generation Anime Discusion thread. It's clear we're so tired of those "You're all wrong, I'm so right about everything concerned to Naruto"  

To be honest I'm starting to miss db at least he had stances, and once we debunked them he'd go away for a few months. Here her only stance is, "I'm better then all of you, and I am always right because the ending was nH/SS."

Well, Evil100 did some digging as Analyzer said she was taught by the writer who did the Godfather and his name is Mario Puzo, here is the thing he died on July 2, 1999 and in now way was he a teacher the very same year that Naruto started and there is no way that she could be in her 40's or even older.

 

So she has been lying man to us saying she was taught by him when she was not, since he passed away long before Naruto ended, and if you look back she does use  the whole. "I was taught by the writer who did the Godfather."

She eventually gave up the guy's name..can't find the quote... Her "mentor (most likely she took a class he taught once)" name is Mark Winegardner (I believe that's the name she gave). His books are: The Godfather Returns, Crooked River Burning, The Godfather's Revenge, and The Veracruz Blues. He basically know for writing spin off of the godfather novels. The thing is she was initially hiding that fact trying to impress us with learning from the creator of the godfather instead of they guy that's know for doing basically godfather fanfiction.