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#61 Atheck

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

 

The thing is, Kishi is focused more on larger themes than battle based logic.  Obito will ultimately be defeated, not because of the power of the attack, but because of the support Naruto has --the support he could have had.  And, it doesn't matter that Naruto doesn't think of them as tools (I agree, he doesn't) but again Kishi focuses on certain themes the Konoha 11 aside from Sakura (and Neji because he's dead, unless he's resurrected) + Sai will be Naruto's biggest disciples, his biggest agents, his most devoted followers.  Among those 9, Shikamaru will be top dog because he's also taking the adviser/brother role that Tobirama had.  Thematically, Sakura is separated from the others.  Kishi gave her the spousal role when she gave the speech in which she spoke for Naruto, so now Kishi is working to separate her from the crowd.

 

And if you recall, last chapter we saw everyone participating in the attack against the tree --Sakura included, but the other 9 excluded.  Think of who the 9 of them were, Kurama's nine tails (or Naruto's own 9 tails) perhaps?

 

I don't think you're nitpicking, I get your perspective and often I wish Kishi was more detail oriented than he is, but Kishi tends to focus on the themes he wants to convey, he wants to share and close certain themes and because of that I don't think he's as detail oriented as you and quite a few others are.

 

It's thanks to Naruto's senjutsu that this maneuver of theirs is even working which even after having received the support of Sasuke's Susanoo and nine highly amplified Rasengan spheres seems extraordinary that they could even challenge the weapon that is supposedly Hagoromo's own personal tool of creation. His power is derived from the entity that is apparently the planet incarnate and yet it's supposed to be accepted that a handful of beings with only half of a fraction of its strength, with the power of a chakra infused warrior and some senjutsu augmentation, can defeat it? I think this is where the suspension of disbelief comes into play. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I understand completely what you're saying about the nine's intervention being important both narratively and morally. I just feel that it could have been presented in a more reasonable way. Kishi could at least have had Tobi try and use more of the abilities that he has at his disposal thanks to the Rinnegan and Jubi to try and stop them before they can attack or something. Hell, just make him look more competent visually and that would suffice a little. 

 

I don't think that much will come from Sakura's absence besides the possible Rin parallel confirmation (if it even occurs at all since she's preoccupied with healing the Alliance in another area of the battlefield against a creature that could feasibly outlast Tobi). At least not in this fight and not to the degree that will it somehow overshadow Kishi's friendship symbolism in this chapter. 

 

I will say that the actual fighting hasn't been all that great recently. Compared to the fights that we once saw in mid P2 (Deidara, Pain, Itachi) this doesn't look too good. To be fair though, many fans argue that the Invasion of Pain arc was the peak of Shippuden. 



#62 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

 

 

 

 

The parallel is already set to stone, now Kishi's building the ground.

 

The point in this chapter was Obito going through life without Rin. She was somewhat the highlight.
So this means only one thing. That if Obito saw what it would be like to have your friends close, like Naruto, Naruto will soon feel what Obito felt not having Rin to his side…

Damn, now I'm really curious. In that last panel before the what if world, both of them collided. We got to see Obito for this chapter to flow nicely on the friends theme. Naruto may have seen a different position. I don't know but Obito did raise a good question: why did he see that world without even thinking about it or even doing moon eye plan? Ah dammit, Kishi. I'll stay up longer to talk more. Thanks to this awesome ost from AoT. Damn, I need to brainstorm.



#63 Chatte

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:30 AM

Damn, now I'm really curious. In that last panel before the what if world, both of them collided. We got to see Obito for this chapter to flow nicely on the friends theme. Naruto may have seen a different position. I don't know but Obito did raise a good question: why did he see that world without even thinking about it or even doing moon eye plan? Ah dammit, Kishi. I'll stay up longer to talk more. Thanks to this awesome ost from AoT. Damn, I need to brainstorm.

To me is clear as daylight. :D


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#64 morgaine4

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:32 AM

Atheck, oh trust me I don't disagree that things could have been improved, like I said I found parts of this chapter (as presented) to be extremely comical.  I guess I'm just over letting certain things bother me, I'm at peace with what Naruto is right now.  Haha.



#65 Chatte

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

Atheck, oh trust me I don't disagree that things could have been improved, like I said I found parts of this chapter (as presented) to be extremely comical.  I guess I'm just over letting certain things bother me, I'm at peace with what Naruto is right now.  Haha.

What we must remember is that this manga is more like drama/angsty one, rather than a 100% shonen one.


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#66 redragon88

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:37 AM

Nice chapter. I liked how it built up to that grand attack with the new generation.

 

Are haters really bashing Sakura because she wasn't part of it? Well, I suppose it should surprise me since they always look for whatever reason to bash. Pathetic people always have that trait about them.

 

I liked Obito's "what if" imagination. I think this is were he takes his first step towards redemption, although I'm sure the road to it will continue to be bumpy since Madara still has his trump card.

 

I've always had a scenario in my head where Obito sacrifices himself to save Sakura (after realizing the Rin parallel) so that he could give Naruto what was denied to him. It would also allow Obito to come full circle by this time being able to save the Rin of this generation, therefore changing fate as he always wanted. Although I wouldn't want Sakura to die for such a thing to happen, rather maybe Obito blocking an attack aimed at her.

 

As far as Sakura taking an important role for the moment, even I'm not sure what to expect. If I was Kishimoto now that the bond of friendship has been established it would be a good time to shift to the love, and since Sakura wasn't a focus of the friendship side then it would only makes sense that her role would be with love. But, then again I'm not Kishimoto so I don't how he'll plan anything.



#67 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:37 AM

I'm rereading the chapter and some of the older chapters and yeah, this aspect was there to complete the friendship part. Once Rin died, he pretty much said screw life but he at least have friends to go along with, but he didn't care because in his vision, Rin is alive and if dead, then it's a lie. So he has separated Rin and friends in separated categories. So that means now we must hear his current thoughts on everything. Rin is a world to him, but can he accept no love but friends fills in? That's something that I'm really interested to see. Remember, he too separated it with Minato when talking about Rin and Hokage. Hokage's talk is completed, but what about Rin? Oh God, A WEEK WAIT!!!!???


Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 16 October 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#68 Chatte

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:40 AM

I'm rereading the chapter and some of the older chapters and yeah, this aspect was there to complete the friendship part. Once Rin died, he pretty much said screw life but he at least have friends to go along with, but he didn't care because in his vision, Rin is alive and if dead, then it's a lie. So he has separated Rin and friends in separated categories. So that means now we must hear his thoughts on his current thoughts on everything. Rin is a world to him, but can he accept no love but friends fills in? That's something that I'm really interested to see. Remember, he too separated it with Minato when talking about Rin and Hokage. Hokage's talk is completed, but what about Rin? Oh God, A WEEK WAIT!!!!???

We had the comrade part, we had the friendship part, guess which one is coming? :P

 

@reddragon, interesting perspective on Obito saving Sakura. It would be a nice one!


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#69 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

We had the comrade part, we had the friendship part, guess which one is coming? :P

 

@reddragon, interesting perspective on Obito saving Sakura. It would be a nice one!

Exactly. Going back to old chapters helped me to look at this chapter differently and I must say I can't wait for what's next. Kakashi is about not giving up on life because of his love. He's not telling him to find a new love, but there's always friends to fill in with him. Obito didn't care because Rin was his dream as well. So now, I'm waiting to see if he gave in or Rin will always top his priority. So yeah, this chapter accomplished the friendship, which btw, someone got listed in there. Cough. Excuse me...



#70 rocci

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:47 AM

if :

1. obito defeated in this chapter than madara will likely take over the mugen tsukoyomi and the war will end in this volume.

 

2. obito survive (again), than he will surely wipe out the alliance and mock(again) naruto and activated his mugen tsukoyomi, but madara will intervent, and the war will end in the next volume.



#71 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

if :

1. obito defeated in this chapter than madara will likely take over the mugen tsukoyomi and the war will end in this volume.

 

2. obito survive (again), than he will surely wipe out the alliance and mock(again) naruto and activated his mugen tsukoyomi, but madara will intervent, and the war will end in the next volume.

I still think this all ends in this volume. I don't see it going on any longer. Madara really has nothing here to offer in terms of connection. Either he will just die by Obito's hand if converted good, or there's a new plan for him by Kishi, saving for the next arc. Let's face it, Obito's dead and tree could be gone would have Madara pretty much screwed. The tree is his only shot to win everything. Without that, he will lose easily.



#72 Chatte

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:59 AM

Also I smell some incoming Sakura power-up as I see this is the same case as it happened in 629-632/5.


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#73 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:04 AM

Also I smell some incoming Sakura power-up as I see this is the same case as it happened in 629-632/5.

We can only wait. Still checking old chapters and yes, this Rin part must be tackled now. It's all or nothing. He either has to accept the way things are or really wants Rin back because she's that more precious that one can't imagine.


Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 16 October 2013 - 09:04 AM.


#74 Codus N

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:08 AM

Hold on:
 

651

 

Actually, It's more like chakra manipulation instead of pure ninjutsu. Lee can use chakra (water-walking, anyone?) He just can't form them into ninjutsu.

 

 

It's because
.

 

I think the opposite. In fact, it's even more Anti-NS. Why?? if Sakura took on a spousal role, wouldn't he have asked her to help? because, that's what partners in life do. Believing in each other and supporting each other. At this point, the very fact that he didn't ask for her help shows that he doesn't even trust her at all.

 

I'll give you one very damn good example: Ed and Winry (FMA).

 

When Winry chose to help Scar (who killed her parents), instead of being furious with him at Briggs, Ed clearly voiced his displeasure while Winry adamantly stood by her position. In the end, he relented and supported Winry's position. And again, when she came up with the plan, Ed refused to let go of her. Again, he gave up (the fact they were pressed for time, also helps). Finallyy, when Winry asks Ed to keep her favorite earrings, she shows faith that he will come back to her.

 

Now, you tell me that NS surpasses those two. This, above is the perfect example of a pairing trusting in each other. Give me one example that is like the above. A consensual moment of them believing in each other.         


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#75 rocci

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:10 AM

Also I smell some incoming Sakura power-up as I see this is the same case as it happened in 629-632/5.

i think we will show the full power of the seal. 

and sakura power up will happen in the next arc, where naruto will learn fuuinjutsu and sasuke getting rinnegan.

 

oh(prediction) i believe naruto will reach ten tail kyuubi via the other tail beast chakra.



#76 Atheck

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:10 AM

It's very comical now. I'm beginning to think that Sasuke's individualist persona is the underdog approach to take since everyone seems to be following Naruto's collectivist "Will of Fire" belief. He's the one who is fighting against the odds it seems. Granted it isn't a purely solitary mission since he does have the tagalongs backing him up but it's pretty much 4 (5 if you include Orochimaru) shinobi against thousands.

 

I can only hope that Black Zetsu will somehow stage a grand reappearance to salvage the Moon's Eye Plan for Tobi and Madara. The poor man/creature seems to have been abandoned and forgotten by everyone. 



#77 rocci

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:15 AM

right now the situation between naruto and sasuke going reverse. 

 

@codus

sakura will save for the last moment. it will show who naruto love.



#78 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

right now the situation between naruto and sasuke going reverse. 

 

@codus

sakura will save for the last moment. it will show who naruto love.

What do you mean by reverse? Well, I need sleep. It's gotten late and it would seem something off-topic is on the horizon, so I got no time for that.



#79 Chatte

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

@Codus, I am going to post something i have discussed with Morgaine on Tumblr regarding what you said.

 

Exactly. Each generation of strong hokages [excluding Tobirama, sadly] had a great woman behind them.

Like you said, Hashi had Mito. Tobirama, sadly was forever alone, lol, Minato had Kushina to hold Kurama back so he can seal the half of Kyuubi inside their son [which is the most important moment in the History of Ninjas, if you think about it, because Naruto is the savior], Sandaime had Byako to deal with the other matters, the secret ones, such as Kushina’s care/birth which was a pretty big deal for Konoha,
And Tsunade [though here roles are changed] had Jiraiya to support her. And I am sure that if Jiraiya would’ve became Hokage, he would’ve had Tsunade taking care of his back.

And now, Naruto has Sakura. Because it’s not about only the rookies, it’s about 5 Nations coming together, 5 Nations to take care of. Which Sakura does effortlessly. Granted, with her master’s help, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t do her job.


Edited by Chatte, 16 October 2013 - 09:33 AM.

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#80 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:31 AM

I don't see how can anyone miss the point of this chapter.






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