24 replies to this topic

[LuckyChi7]

So this is something that's always been on my mind ever since I finished Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 which was actually my experience through Shippuden the first time before i started watching the anime.  Anyway the point I'm making here is when I got to the ending of the pain arc I always felt that there was alot of potential for the story to move in a lot directions. The idea that really fascinated me is if a Timeskip occurred after The Pain Arc like imagine the revival of all the characters that died never occurred.  Kakashi, Shizune. Choza. Tsunade actually did die. Really think about the kind of impact that would've been there for Shippuden (Part II) especially for some of the characters.  Kakashi not only for Naruto, but also Sakura.  Tsunade and Shizune again for both Naruto and Sakura.  Then you've got Choza which the impact that could've left for Choji.  The ending itself is still the same in it's own way except instead of Kakashi say it was like Yamato or even better Iruka Sensei. Everyone in the village greets himself and acknowledges him the same way. Sakura hugs Naruto saying thank you. Iruka in the background saying to himself, Lord Fourth there is a hero standing before the village. I'd say for more closure Naruto visit the grave he builds for Jiraiya especially with the novel Tales of a Gutsy Ninja with him thinking "I'm sure come a long way Pervy-Sage." maybe have Sakura visiting him saying, "You must miss him so much." and Naruto says, "Not a day's gone by since I haven't, and now with Kakashi sensei, and grandma Tsunade.." Sakura then puts his hand on his shoulder, "I know Naruto, I just hope things can get better from here."  have Naruto exchange a look at her and say, "Yeah..." while thinking about what Minato said about the night of his birth, and the image of Tobi (Madara) flashes to his head, "Could Defeating him can lead us to that hope?" Something like that.. those who get the reference to the last line   .

 

 

 

 

So  based off that I'd like to think a two year time skip occurs, and alot of things have taken place mainly with Naruto making a name for himself with the accomplishments that after he defeats Pain. I'd even say, by this point Naruto is the Sixth Hokage.   Let's also a Five Kage Summit Arc takes place consider this the situation is hella different from the canon verse.. So what do you guys would occur in this version? and Let's also say that a Fourth Great Ninja War Arc also occurs to0, but it's not really through the same situation The war itself occurs between the 5 nations in terms of power.  I'd like to know your guys thoughts on how events would occur? Where would the characters be? How would Taka/Akatsuki play a role into this verse? Ofcourse there is also the handling of the pairings? well Narusaku obviously, but how do guys the scenario playing out for those two also? with the proposed idea I came up with above? 

 

I'd really like to know what some of your ideas would be on this little direction the series could've taken.  

Edited by LuckyChi7, 17 August 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Interesting Idea, but I feel there are still some things needed to be address such as, Sasuke kidnapping Killer Bee, The Raikage calling for a Kage summit in response to that and the growing influence of the Akatsuki and Danzo finally attempting to take power. I think their needs to be at least one arc before you do a time skip dealing with this stuff.

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 17 August 2017 - 10:10 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

So this is something that's always been on my mind ever since I finished Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 which was actually my experience through Shippuden the first time before i started watching the anime.  Anyway the point I'm making here is when I got to the ending of the pain arc I always felt that there was alot of potential for the story to move in a lot directions. The idea that really fascinated me is if a Timeskip occurred after The Pain Arc like imagine the revival of all the characters that died never occurred.  Kakashi, Shizune. Choza. Tsunade actually did die. Really think about the kind of impact that would've been there for Shippuden (Part II) especially for some of the characters.  Kakashi not only for Naruto, but also Sakura.  Tsunade and Shizune again for both Naruto and Sakura.  Then you've got Choza which the impact that could've left for Choji.  The ending itself is still the same in it's own way except instead of Kakashi say it was like Yamato or even better Iruka Sensei. Everyone in the village greets himself and acknowledges him the same way. Sakura hugs Naruto saying thank you. Iruka in the background saying to himself, Lord Fourth there is a hero standing before the village. I'd say for more closure Naruto visit the grave he builds for Jiraiya especially with the novel Tales of a Gutsy Ninja with him thinking "I'm sure come a long way Pervy-Sage." maybe have Sakura visiting him saying, "You must miss him so much." and Naruto says, "Not a day's gone by since I haven't, and now with Kakashi sensei, and grandma Tsunade.." Sakura then puts his hand on his shoulder, "I know Naruto, I just hope things can get better from here."  have Naruto exchange a look at her and say, "Yeah..." while thinking about what Minato said about the night of his birth, and the image of Tobi (Madara) flashes to his head, "Could Defeating him can lead us to that hope?" Something like that.. those who get the reference to the last line   .

 

 

 

 

So  based off that I'd like to think a two year time skip occurs, and alot of things have taken place mainly with Naruto making a name for himself with the accomplishments that after he defeats Pain. I'd even say, by this point Naruto is the Sixth Hokage.   Let's also a Five Kage Summit Arc takes place consider this the situation is hella different from the canon verse.. So what do you guys would occur in this version? and Let's also say that a Fourth Great Ninja War Arc also occurs to0, but it's not really through the same situation The war itself occurs between the 5 nations in terms of power.  I'd like to know your guys thoughts on how events would occur? Where would the characters be? How would Taka/Akatsuki play a role into this verse? Ofcourse there is also the handling of the pairings? well Narusaku obviously, but how do guys the scenario playing out for those two also? with the proposed idea I came up with above? 

 

I'd really like to know what some of your ideas would be on this little direction the series could've taken.  

 

 

Agree with everything but the "Naruto is the Hokage" and "Fourth Great Ninja War" parts. Please. No wars. Even under your scenario, it's still going to lead to the same bloated and hamfisted storytelling we got in the original. This manga just isn't properly geared for a "war arc", much less one between five countries. A lot of chapters explaining stuff that should have been developed a long long time ago. Instead, I'd propose leaving the other countries alone and addressing them in a sequel manga, should there be one. Instead, the final arc should be about dealing with Sasuke once and for all. As to the hokage part, we need to see Naruto become hokage on screen and we also need to deal with the Danzo subplot.

 

With that out of the way, here is my idea as to how events play out under your scenario (minus the war and Hokage part). Right before the timeskip, the kage summit is held and Danzo stands in as the leaf village's representative seeing as how there is no current leaf village hokage. Eacch kage is in full agreement that Sasuke and the Akatsuki are too dangerous to be left their own devices any further and that they are all now public enemy number one. Sasuke especially, given that he is the only member that can be identified both by name and face. Henceforth, wanted posters of Sasuke will be issued through all five villages and Sasuke himself now has an insurmountable bounty attached to his head.

 

Seeing news of the attention Sasuke has attracted, Tobi urges Sasuke to proceed with his plans for the leaf village with caution and Sasuke ultimately agrees, acknowledging that he won't let his plans for revenge be spoiled by mere impatience. On the other hand, Naruto is besides himself about this news, realizing that it's going to be that much harder to save his friend and keep his promise to Sakura. Sakura puts on a brave front, but is tearful about Sasuke's predicament.

 

Two years pass and Konoha is still recovering (none of that deus ex machina wood jutsu BS from Yamato). Danzo is the Hokage and is basically ruling Konoha like a police state and assigning ninjas to a great deal of missions that are morally suspect (i.e. real ninja work, not this happy go lucky stuff you see throughout most of the series). Many ninja, particularly the genin 9 (er 7, since Sasuke is gone and Hinata is dead) do not approve of Danzo's methods, but don't feel like they have any choice in the matter. 

 

Things aren't completely grim in Konoha, however. Naruto is now a hero and an active source of inspiration. People are really loving him. Danzo himself recognizes this and is thus willing to overlook any antics he engages in, knowing full well that any action taken against the knuckle head leaf ninja could very well spark a revolt amongst the villagers. Naruto himself has grown much stronger over the past two years. Promising to himself to never allow what happened during Pain's invasion, he trains religiously each and every day and has enhanced his skills to a new level entirely (portable and kamikaze shadow clone tactics are finally a thing . . . which they should have been a long long long time ago). 

Sasuke, on the other hand, has come to be recognized as source of inspiration amongst the smaller villages Pain told Naruto about. To these villages' abundant ignorance, Sasuke and Akatsuki represent a voice against the oppressive shinobi system. Using Sasuke as a figurehead, Tobi manipulates this newfound support to his advantage, openly welcoming the funds and support these villages are willing to provide the Akatsuki.

 

Now based on what we have here, there are numerous ways to spearhead the plot forward, but the main plot threads I'd implement would be:

 

• Naruto having to come to terms on what it really means to be the Hokage. Here, much of the leaf village was destroyed during the Pain invasion and Naruto does not want that to ever happen again. In fact, he's practically become fanatical with insuring that it doesn't happen. On the other hand, he hasn't forgotten his promise to Sakura and refuses to relent upon it. He's prepared to let Sasuke make his own choices (which is what should have happened in canon the minute Sasuke was free of Orichimaru's influence), but he's not prepared to go back on his word. This is good because it puts out title character in a position of constant conflict and where there's no easy answer.
• Sakura having to come to terms on what Naruto really means to her and the depths she's willing to go to protect him. Even after two years, she still hasn't found her answer, but as she sees him follow this obsessive and destructive path, she cannot help but worry. Much like Naruto, she's also spent the last two years training her butt off and has improved dramatically (byakugou, chakra scalpel techniques, poisons and lethal virus dosages added to her arsenal). 
• Sasuke is following Orochimaru's path. He's reaching a point where he's losing sight of his original goals. Just where will pure hatred lead a man?

 

Gotta have those three bar none! Everything else is cake.

[LuckyChi7]

@ThroughWithLove

The hokage aspect I was really debating on while I was thinking of the idea, and it probably is for the best he isn't hokage yet in this little version of the story.. the war arc I can do or without it wasn't really necessary I can see it going both wise.

And your idea actually works pretty I've got say that like it planted a picture in my head of how things would play out, and I really liked it.

Though one thing I feel should be there is Naruto holding some kinda grudge against Tobi after hearing the story from Minato about the masked man. I wouldn't say have him go on the lengths of Sasuke was, but showcase conflicts going on within him as a character like he still try to be positive around others, but when he's alone it conflicts with him similarly with the Sasuke situation as you stated above. I was also thinking the only ones who really takes notice of this are Yamato, Sai, Shikamaru, and especially Sakura the most. Do you think it would be a little too much if we say some nights Naruto can't sleep, and that itself leads to some conversations between him and Kurama in terms of Naruto keeping holding onto an internal grudge towards Tobi. I always kinda imagined that would be an interesting idea. Especially when Sakura takes notice of Naruto's behavior.

[ThroughWithLove]

@ThroughWithLove

The hokage aspect I was really debating on while I was thinking of the idea, and it probably is for the best he isn't hokage yet in this little version of the story.. the war arc I can do or without it wasn't really necessary I can see it going both wise.

And your idea actually works pretty I've got say that like it planted a picture in my head of how things would play out, and I really liked it.

Though one thing I feel should be there is Naruto holding some kinda grudge against Tobi after hearing the story from Minato about the masked man. I wouldn't say have him go on the lengths of Sasuke was, but showcase conflicts going on within him as a character like he still try to be positive around others, but when he's alone it conflicts with him similarly with the Sasuke situation as you stated above. I was also thinking the only ones who really takes notice of this are Yamato, Sai, Shikamaru, and especially Sakura the most. Do you think it would be a little too much if we say some nights Naruto can't sleep, and that itself leads to some conversations between him and Kurama in terms of Naruto keeping holding onto an internal grudge towards Tobi. I always kinda imagined that would be an interesting idea. Especially when Sakura takes notice of Naruto's behavior.

 

I wasn't sure how to address the grudge against Tobi after the way Naruto learned not to hate Nagato, but considering that we're changing things up to the point to where the deaths in the Pain arc are permanent, maybe there is a workaround. As in Naruto is in the process of learning how to let go of hate and Tobi remains somewhat of a stumbling block for him. Hence we see this grudge play out.

 

I do agree though: When he's around others, he's positive, but when he's alone, we see this inner-conflict front and center. Sai, Yamato Sand Shikamaru have a sense that something is not quite right, but only Sakura truly grasps what's going on, which eventually results in a climactic verbal confrontation between the two (the fake confession in the original was a small effort to do this, but I'm talking about something with actual substance and meat to it).

 

I also like the idea of him questioning Kurama at night. As opposed to training with Bee, perhaps this is how he ultimately ends up learning how to control Kurama.

[Riverkid]

I believe if Kishimoto still had motivation to extend the Story he would have done a timeskip after the Pain-Arc. 

I think there are 4 good reasons to why a Timeskip should have been done.

1. Danzo. He was foreshadowed by Jiraiya and the 3rd Hokage for a long time. He also provides an interesting Character to the Story with seious ambitions to develop the Plot. It was already the perfect timing for him to step in as the next Hokage after the village got destroyd and Tsunade not being able to lead anymore. However Kishimoto was already exhausted by that point, and Danzo couldn't be developed into a War-Arc without having to write a complex stroytelling by seperating it into Naruto, Danzo, Sasuke and Aktasuki where all 4 share different goals and ambitions. 2-3 Years of Timeskip would be enough to build up his regime in Konoha and settle up the basis to build up an act.

2. Naruto. Naruto still wasn't able to control the power of the Kyubi, and with everything heating up in the Story he can't carry his unpredictable and uncontrollable variable along. He would be forced to deal with his own power before he can do something against Akatsuki and Danzo. His training and development should be done in a slow pace, like in his first timeskip with jiraiya where he needed 2-3 years, except this time with Killer Bee. In the meantime he would also know more about the true leader of Akatsuki and what his real goal is about. Its way better than giving him the Power in a couple of days where he also mastered all the new jutsus without any real practice.

3. Konoha-Squad. They needed improvement characterwise and also needed a real development within the story. Kishimoto could adjust the powerscaling for them to close the gap in a fair way in relation to the tier-1 Characters. Either way they should be atleast around 19/20 years to peak with their strength, experience and maturity. A 16 year old kid shouldn't be equal as some Jonins and Anbus who fought in a Ninja war, that just doesn't make any sense.

4. The Story lost most of his lines at the end of the Arc. Sasuke killed Itachi, Konoha was destroyed, Naruto achieved his goal being acknowledged, Akatsuki lost so many members + Pain (they needed to recover first). It would be a good timing to add a timeskip, however Kishimoto decided against that and just put chaos with his writing to push the Story as fast as possible towards the War-Arc.

- Sasuke randomly joining Akatsuki
- Naruto heading again to protect Sasuke while Akatsuki just destroyed his village, and still hasn't 0 control over his Power
- Danzo being killed after some chapters
- out of nowhere a big ninja alliance without preperation
- Naruto gaining 2x / 3x Power within some days
- Sasuke changing his mindset multiple times
- Sakura randomly developing back to Part-1 Sakura

Kishimoto forced so many things, with so much chaotic logic just to head into the war-arc. Naruto was filled with retcons after the Pain-arc and failed a proper buildup towards the war-arc.

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Im not sure how the events would go.

I could see Naruto leaving the village because of Danzo. Naruto would  just be restrained by Danzo. He wouldnt be allowed to look for Sasuke, he wouldnt be allowed to practice with this Kyubi-Power etc. It would be the smartest move to leave, heading towards Killer-Bee and start his training + investigation towards the masked-Akatsuki and his plans.

The Konoha Squad whould have to endure the life under the regime of Danzo, maybe also waiting for the right time to start a coup against him with the approval of the villagers where everyone lived in fear because of him. 

Sasuke and Danzo would have a direct conflict, since Danzo wants to kill the last Uchiha and Sasuke wants to kill Danzo. However under Danzo it would be much harder to attack Konoha as it was under Tsunade, so he would need help to achieve his goal. It would be right time to get help from the Konoha-Squad since they were planning a coupe against Danzo anyways. He would not only gain the trust of them, but also the trust from the villagers by helping taking down Danzo. He could be a dear and forgiven konoha Ninja again. (thats way better than letting him attack Killer-Bee, killing Danzo, attempt to kill his former squad, and betrays the alliance at the end of the war-arc)

Naruto and Killer-Bee would be in a direct conflict against Akatsuki + Tobi, not really focusing much towards Konoha because Tobi is a way bigger threat. After Konoha being free from Danzo it would be the right time for Akatsuki to start their plan and moves to build-up the last act of the Story, it would also re-unite Naruto again with Konoha.


It could have also be interesting if Naruto played 'dead' after the battle with Pain, so Danzo wouldn't look for him (and no one else too) so he can focus on his training and dealing with Akatsuki on his own without putting his friends in danger (because Asuma and Jiraiya already died cause of Akatsuki)


 

Edited by Riverkid, 19 August 2017 - 04:39 AM.

[Riverkid]

Sasuke joins Akatsuki for a reason, so "randomly" is " is also incorrect

Here is what happened. Sasuke killed Itachi. Tobi make up a story to convince Sasuke thad Danzo (the elders) are bad guys. Sasuke could have just head to konoha and attack the elders, but he refused this path. Instad he joins Aktasuki so he is given the task to attack Killer-Bee. He attacked (captured) Killer Bee. He then left Akatsuki to head to Knoha with Team Taka where he got stoped again because Tobi appeared to tell him that he failed his task to capture Killer Bee.

So in the end, he gained 0 Benefits with his move joining Akatsuki. Instead he also wasted his time with tasks like attacking Killerbee which didn't even helped him with his goal towards Danzo and the elders. Tobi wasn't even trying to help him with his goal, while Sasuke tried to help him with the moon plan. There is absolutly no reasons to why Sasuke should have joined akatsuki

You know how Kishimoto could have justify this act? By letting Tobi say: "Here is the plan Sasuke, you should join Akatsuki and capture Killer Bee for me. Because of that, and because of the impulsive personality of the Raikage he will be forced to summon a Kage-summit where Danzo will also take part with. That means that Danzo whill be vulnerable on his way with only some guards protecting him, and you wouldn't be forced to attack fromer members too"

That would have been a good reason for him to join, howver kishimoto missed that opportunity and decided for "something else" to let him join. That "something else" is just questionable and doesn't make sense for Sasuke. 
 

 

 

 

Naruto heading again to protect Sasuke while Akatsuki just destroyed his village, and still hasn't 0 control over his Power", the control over his power is addressed shortly after the Kage Summit arc

Yes it was adressed, but that wasn't the initial reason for the Kage summit. It was more or less just about Sasuke because he captured Killer-Bee. Naruto knew that the kage summit was about Sasuke mainly, so he left Konoha again to talk with the Raikage. Naruto was a Hero now, and the Village got destroyed. How can he just leave it like that for 'Sasuke' when 'Akatsuki' is still out there and the villagers needs him the most. Naruto just being selfish again with his obsessed goals to chase someone instead really putting his focus on more important things.

The Kage-summit changed their concerns towards Naruto and Killer-Bee only because Tobi appeard, to tell them about the Moon-Plan. So Tobi just took the focus towards him by tellingthem how a big of a threat he is.

 

 

Sakura digressed to part one Sakura (She didn't)

She did. The Focus of her Character slowly tunnelvisioned again towards Sasuke. That already caused her bad Characterdesign in Part-1 where she was one of the most hated Character because of her tunnelvisioning. She did it again, just with the exception that she was strong and helpfull to support Naruto and the Alliance in the battle. Outside of that it was just how she felt about Sasuke and the situation..

feeling sad during a war just because Sasuke didn't noticed her is so cringeworthy, i can't understand how kishimoto allows something like that in his writing. Naruto even forced to cheer her up feels like a kindergarden-Arc rather than a War-arc

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He wouldn't have needed a Timeskip to develop those ideas, you are right. However i think that would extend the Story too much.. unless he got the motivation to extend the Story to a 'One-Piece'- level. 

 

Edited by Riverkid, 19 August 2017 - 05:24 AM.

[Riverkid]

 

1: The first part isn't accurate. Tobi offered Taka help to destroy Konoha, but first, he wanted them to take out eight tails. They attempt this, then are revealed to fail by Topi. Tobi then gives them an alternative, to kill Danzo. Much different when we gain context. The "Randomness" is gone. 

 

2: There's no indication that the village was in danger from further Akatsuki attacks. His former team-mate was about to be declared a traitor and he wanted to save him. Further, when Naruto reached the Raikage, he rejected his idea. The build up was more and more of Naruto's friends turning against Sasuke. After facing Sasuke at the end of the arc, he asks his friends to leave Sasuke to him alone. Makes more sense with context again.

 

3: Sakura's character always had some focus on Sasuke. Always. To read that it ever wasn't is perhaps the error of your interpretation. You see it in part one, in part two, all the way to the end. The relationship changes, it's no longer a shallow crush as we end part one, and they are no longer on opposing sides for her to pursue it further at the end of part two. That her desire was to have Sasuke's acknowledgement, like Naruto, makes the above make sense? Further, that she wanted to catch up to both Naruto and Sasuke, antoher element of her character that frustration attributed to, also makes it make sense. 

 

Mind, Sakura is certainly a divisive character, and so is Sasuke, thus, so is SS, and getting into the why of each is another topic on its own. 

1. Tobi offered Sasuke to give him 'more' Power in exchange for helping him catching Killer-Bee. After catching Killer-Bee Sasuke told his Teammates (taka) that he has no interest in the promised 'power' of Tobi anymore, and left Akatsuki. 

Thats 'random', and surely not quality writing. Kishimoto had Position-A [Sasuke achieving his goal killing Itachi] and he wanted to bring Sasuke to Position-B [Putting Sasuke in the role of an 'Antagonist']. He didn't know how to develop Sasuke to position-B and just wrote this lackluster-Act. 

Its like Tobi saying to Sasuke: "Yo Sasuke, throw that stone towards that Guy over there.. i will give you something in exchange"
Sasuke throwing the stone, and saying afterwards "You know what? im not interested anymore about the thing you wanted to give me"...  just with the difference now that he put the role of an 'antagonist' after throwing that stone because he helped the main-antagnonist being closer to his goal on his own will. I will say it again "quality writing" /s

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2. Indication? Pain just walked into Konoha and destroyed everthing without any indication of him heading towards Konoha. They wasn't prepared and didn't even know that Pain is already in Konoha until he started his terror. 

They surely don't need any indiciation to be on high alert about enemies outside of konoha, so its not the smartest idea to let the current Hokage (Danzo) leave the village for a Kage summit, and also let the strongest Ninja leaving that village too for some selfish goals. 

Even those Ninja from kumogakure walked inside of Konoha without any problems, what if they were enemies? 

Every Enemy of Konoha would be interested to attack Konoha after being destroyed, because its at a weak state right now... thats indication enough, lol.

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3. "Sakura's character always had some focus on Sasuke. Always."

There is a difference between having a 'Focus' or having a 'Tunnelvision'.

Sakura and Hinata are basically the same. Both characters screenplay solely revolve around certain Characters. Hinata -> Naruto, Sakura -> Sasuke. They managed to balance that on Sakura after the Timeskip, giving her more volume in the Story. They reverted that after the pain-arc, and the character started to revolve around Sasuke again. 

Its unhealthy for a Character being restricted to something like that, unless that Character needs to fill a certain nieche with that as an important emelent for the story. However not in this case. I dont know why Kishimoto felt the urge to restrict female Characters to something like that when "romance" was never a focused Genre in his story. 

 

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: One has some inaccuracies, as after Killer B was killed, he was heading to Konoha. On his way to Konoha . . .

 

Wait a minute. Why is he already headed to Konoha if the plan was for him and Tobi to take Konoha down together? Now that I think about it, that's just stupid. I think you just proved riverkid's point. Sasuke's actions here are random and plot devicey.

 

 

 

2: Two is problematic because there is no Konoha, as it was just destroyed. Naruto's greater concern was Sasuke's name at the time. That ninja were still available within the ninja points it far from defenseless. That the only primary group interested in destroying Konoha was Sasuke, who averted his direction because it was already destroyed, puts things in perspective.

 

The Akatsuki want Naruto. They nearly destroyed the village in an effort to do this. Of course the village would be on lockdown and high alert after such a colossal attack. And given what we know about the shinobi world pre-kage summit, it makes zero sense and screams of "Screw it! I don't give a kitten, lets just move the plot forward already!"

 

 

3: Three has major issues as well. On Sakura, with Sasuke absent and unreachable, and a major character she is going to have more things to focus on? This scope is not reverted, because you do not take the context at the end of Sasuke being so focused on, being the chief antagonist at the end. If this is a jab at 699, it is also a bit silly, because the context of the situation revolves around Sasuke's departure, so of course Sakura acts accordingly. That Sakura does not do a revolve around Sasuke in the Last is telling. He will always be a part of that character, though, and when that is brought into focus, you cannot call it a reversion, because it was always there.

 

Sakuras arc, by your reasoning, is complete as of the chuunin exams. She goes from having a shallow crush on Sasuke to wanting to save him from his darkness. That's it. Everything else is a waste of the reader's time.

 

 

Hinata is another issue as well. First, the manga is about Naruto. So you're not going to see what Hinata does in non-Naruto moments simply because she's . . .

 

Yeah, I'm gonna have to cut you off there. Kishi is very capable of fleshing out a side character. We are able to see just fine what Shikamaru does in non-Naruto moments, specifically throughout the Hidan/Kakuzu arc, so your excuse is unpersuasive. He spent a great deal of time on Shikamaru, but not the love interest who he supposedly intended to be the love interest throughout the entire manga? Give me a break.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 20 August 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[Riverkid]

 

1: One has some inaccuracies, as after Killer B was killed, he was heading to Konoha. On his way to Konoha, Tobi explains the situation to hhim, and the plan changes to kill Danzo. He was never really with Akatsuki, more working for them, but did not fully intend to be their pawn either. That what Tobi was sending him to do after Killer B more or less worked with his own goals made it an agreeable compromise. That's also not ranodm, as a character is making active decisions. That he also does not say in that context either does not help your point either, his path is largely the same, but altered by the going on of events. 

 

2: Two is problematic because there is no Konoha, as it was just destroyed. Naruto's greater concern was Sasuke's name at the time. That ninja were still available within the ninja points it far from defenseless. That the only primary group interested in destroying Konoha was Sasuke, who averted his direction because it was already destroyed, puts things in perspective.

 

3: Three has major issues as well. On Sakura, with Sasuke absent and unreachable, and a major character she is going to have more things to focus on? This scope is not reverted, because you do not take the context at the end of Sasuke being so focused on, being the chief antagonist at the end. If this is a jab at 699, it is also a bit silly, because the context of the situation revolves around Sasuke's departure, so of course Sakura acts accordingly. That Sakura does not do a revolve around Sasuke in the Last is telling. He will always be a part of that character, though, and when that is brought into focus, you cannot call it a reversion, because it was always there.

 

Hinata is another issue as well. First, the manga is about Naruto. So you're not going to see what Hinata does in non-Naruto moments simply because she's 1: A supporting Character, who often channel right into the Main Character, and 2: The Love-Interest. There could have always been more development, a Team 8 Arc, so to speak. But the danger of that was Kishimoto would then have to tip his hand more, and he probably didn't want to do that as we see the pairings resolve at the end. When a story is about X character, this is pretty common? It's not solely in that they ignore everyone else either, as we see Hinata express concern to other things. But if it didn't focus on Naruto, it would naturally either mean the character was important, with the plot having focus on them (I.E., the Last, where in the latter Acts she is in Toneri's castle working without focus on Naruto), backstory, or just making the wrong move of focusing on things that do not push forward the plot. 

I guess i will have to show you step by step.



Here it begins. Tobi offers 'power' for Sasuke if he decides to work with Akatsuki.



Sasuke clearly shows his interest towards the nine-tails (Naruto). Sasuke wants to crush Konoha -> which means killing the Elders, villagers and the shinobis too (including Naruto). Why in hell should Sasuke take care of the 8th tails? 

Sasuke wants to crush Konoha. Akatsuki wants to caputre the 9th-tail. So why isn't Sasuke going towards Konoha, and Akatsuki takes care of Killer-Bee ? Sasuke knows Konoha better, knows the ninjas better, and knows Naruto better than anyone else in Akatsuki... and Sasuke even agrees on that? wow... what a time-wasting task for him to do



Oh, now he decides to head towards Konoha? well, why not heading towards Konoha in the first place ? instead wasting his time with Killer-Bee. Does he get anything from Akatsuki before heading towards Konoha?Nop.  So where are those benefits for Sasuke by joining Akatsuki ? 

Here it is




Sasuke doesn't want the Power anymore.. great. So Sasuke wasted his time for almost 45 chapters doing something he got nothing out of it. Akatsuki didn't helped him capturing Killer-Bee, and he doesnt want the help from Akatsuki heading towards Konoha. Why joining Akatsuki in the first place? 



He joined Akatsuki just to left Akatsuki after 50 chapters. And why? because kishimoto forced Sasuke to do something completly unneccesary just so he can turn Sasuke into the most-wanted criminal to set up the next act. He didn't care how 'well' or 'bad' he is going to write the development for this stage, the only thing that mattered was the outcome at the end, and well.. he got his outcome how he wanted it to be. Does that make his writing good just because his intention of turning sasuke into a villain was achieved? hell no. 

If you want a well-written Character (especially a well-written Antagonist or Anti-Hero) then you need 'empathy'. How do you want to understand Sasukes decision when  he does nonsense most of the time like joining Atasuki? ... heck, even believing Tobi was already nonsense.. or not going back towards Konoha after killing Orochimaru.

Sasuke is one of the worst written Character in the entire story. Because kishimoto mainly uses him to create a specific outcome to set up the next stage, no matter how he does it. You clearly can feel the used force from the writer to drive this Character, when in fact as a 'reader' you shouldn't notice that force.. that force should be replaced with 'empathy' 

Without the empathy its like "oh, he is doing something, because.. eh.. i dont know. oh wait! they going to expla.. wait, that doesnt make sense ? well.... i guess the writer wants it this way"
------------------------------------------

"That the only primary group interested in destroying Konoha was Sasuke"

So we just remove Tobi, Kisame and Zetsu out of our Head? Because they are part of Akatsuki, and Akatsuki just destroyed Konoha. So why should we stop thinking that Tobi, Kisame or Zetsu wouldn't plan another attack on Konoha? Because Naruto still wasn't captured? And they need him for the moon plan.

They have no idea where Tobi is, and what he is doing next.. so why not assuming that the attemps another try to attack Konoha and trying to capture Naruto? or maybe one of his friends as a lure? 

-------------------------------------------------

"Sakura, with Sasuke absent and unreachable, and as a major character she is going to have more things to focus on?"

and how did it affect her as a Character ? in a good way. Her character peaked at the beginning of Part 2 after the time-skip. Even some fans started to like her more because she finally filled her charactervolume to a good extend with such a big and important screenplay.

"This scope is not reverted, because you do not take the context at the end of Sasuke being so focused on, being the chief antagonist at the end"

"So you're not going to see what Hinata does in non-Naruto moments"

It doesn't matter what Sasuke is doing, and it doesn't matter what Hinata is doing in non-Naruto moments.

"Screenplay" is the room where a Character excist. Hinata can be the greatest and smartes Ninja in Naruto, however if she only is used to be shy and only thinking about Naruto in the Screenplay.. well, then she is a restricted Character who revolves only around Naruto in her room of characterplay. 

The Screenplay after the Timeskip of Sakura improved because it wasn't 1/2-dimensional.. it was a bit more complex. 
It turned back to be a 1/2-dimensional Screenplay. 

- thinking about Sasuke, even when nursing injured shinobis
- feeling sad and hurt when Sasuke is treating her bad
- Naruto being angry about Sasuke because he is treating Sakura bad
- Sakura making the fake-confession, well.. because of Sasuke

Of course there were moments which didn't include Sasuke-moments. And of course there might be a lot moments outside of the screenplay where Sakura wasn't thinking about Sasuke.. yes.. but the screenplay was 70% towards Sasuke focused, and the screenplay is her characterplay. Her character tunnelvisioned towards Sasuke like in Part-1.


---------------------------------------------------

Its like in all post-chapter-discussions. Fans coming out of every corner.. trying to defend the Naruto-Product. Using tissues to fix the holes in the sinking ship. No matter how bad the written-Stage, the written-Character, the retcons, the plotholes etc.. they always try to find a way defending this work

 

Edited by Riverkid, 20 August 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[Riverkid]

The problem with one is you remove the context that drove him to develop towards each reason. With just the panels, it seems random. With the story behind them, it isn't. 

 

But on the Naruto issue, just as much as it is true that Sasuke is familiar with Konoha, Konoha is also familiar with him. 

 

More or less Sasuke is a villain? There are reasons to give Sasuke empathy, but they never outshadow it to the point that you pick his side. 

 

I'm not going to argue that Sasuke wasn't well executed, Sasuke wasn't, nor each bond element of Team 7 either initially between eachother, and you are welcome to your opinion that Sasuke is the worst character, though it's false that he's just there to set up the next stage. 

 

That Naruto just defeated Pain kind of puts a dent in let's just attack again! That Kisame gets defeated later reinforces that further. 

 

Anyway, skipping to the last part, that's not true.

 

When your Screenplay revolves around a singular character, a lot of focus is going to be on that character. You aren't going to see nor have time to flesh out every other character around them, particularly when the cast is large. It will get bogged down and hinder the plot. This was the issue actually with the Sasuke elements, and more general, the Uchiha. It helped to bog down the plot. Kishimoto liked those elements, and so did fans in Japan, but that was a consequence of it. 

The only problem here is you denying facts.

Its you telling: "it seems random. with the story behind them ,it isn't". Like you want to convince me that there is a reason behind it, but you can't show it to me. You basically just say "with the story behind them, it isnt'" like you are sure to 100% that there is a profound meaning combined with empathy to why sasuke choose those decisions, however you aren't able to prove that point.

You relax way to much on your over-confidence opinion that you doesn't even feel the need to support your opinion with argumentation and facts, you just write it  down (like: "it seems random, with the story behind them, it isnt'") and leave it like that.

I could analyze you all 50 chapters, and it would still be summed up towards:
- Tobi promised power
- Sasuke joins Akatsuki
- Sasuke doing an unneccesary act without getting benefits, and not coming 1 inch closer to his goal
- leaves akatsuki and doesnt even want the promised power anymore

I already analyzed the whole conversation between Sasuke and Tobi about Itachis truth where many things were just bad-scripted.

You are just doing the same thing as in the other thread, not bringing any argumentation and just tries to debate against other opinions rather than about Naruto.

 

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: Random would be without reason or explanation. Plot Devicey would be if he did go to Konoha, with the first case being true to randomness. 

 

Sasuke suddenly wanting to go destroy konoha himself without the Akatsuki's assistance is the epitome of randomness. It's also stupid. 

 

 

2: How can you lockdown a village that doesn't exist?

 

For a village that doesn't exist, it sure seems manage just fine with a Hokage not only representing said village at a kage summit but also issuing out decrees on said village's behalf (Sasuke is a missing-nin!). All done rather publicly by the way. That has to be one of the laziest counter-argument I've ever seen! Hey guys, someone just tried to assassinate the president with some explosives. Luckily, we got the president away from the blast just in time, but we don't think the terrorist know this yet, so lets not worry about providing the president any security in the mean time! He's free to walk around on his own!

 

 

3: Except it's not. Much of part two is spent on the pursuit of Sasuke. There's a difference between an Arc and development as well.

 

Nope, her arc is over. Any and all involvement she has in pursuing Sasuke is just fluff; she's just along for the ride.

 

 

4: If you didn't want to show the hand and write romance, it actually makes sense. 

 

I understand the author's alleged insecurities towards writing romance, but it doesn't excuse making this so-called planned-from-the-beginning uber-special important love interest a one dimensional character. Especially when we know the author is capable of fleshing out characters not named Naruto in a not-Naruto-related fashion. 

[Qia]

 

Nope, her arc is over. Any and all involvement she has in pursuing Sasuke is just fluff; she's just along for the ride.

 

And if you need further proof of this underdevelopment...look at the fact that Sakura promised Naruto they would get stronger together after failing to rescue Sasuke the second time and only seeing Naruto training after that. Heck, we didn't even get to see Sakura land a single punch because Yamato got in the way. Either way, after this, what's Sakura up to? God knows what.  She's just there in the background until her confession where, again, the focus is on her feelings...and not her becoming physically stronger and training. What's even more telling was that in part 1 we were told more than once that she's really good when it comes to genjutsu...but didn't really get much from that. Just imagine...Sakura becoming almost as good as Kurenai and us getting to see her train with her for a bit since Kakashi was busy with Naruto. Granted Kurenai was pregnant but that's a fact that could have easily been adjusted to achieve the goal of giving Sakura the growth she deserved and that it was important for us to SEE. 

[BlackShirtGuy]

@Analyzer

So according to you if a character does something random it's calle ddevelopment??
Then, if Naruto came home someday and told Hinata: "I want a divorce" that would be development according to you right?

I personally think timeskips are this series worst enemy: everytime a timeskip ocurred this thing just got worse:

Part 1 to Part 2 It's all about getting Sauske back
The one in the last, timeskip for no reaon other than for a stupid pairing
The epilogue one?? Timeskip just for the new series
The Boruto one?? It was just to shock people and gather interests in the new stupid generation

[Riverkid]

 

You know, that looks like development to me, when you have an initial goal but by the end, have a change of plans. It's not random, it's growth. Sasuke goes through the fight with Bee, and through it wants to use his own merits. It's also never really expressed he wants it, it's just an offer from Tobi's side. there is a whole talk about him worried he's being manipulated, but Sasuke has no interest in that. He's not ever really that aligned with the Akatsuki. 

 

This analysis is also the issue with the Sakura parts, there is growth, we're also told she goes train, and her status with Sasuke is changing throughout the Manga. While the execution can be criticized at points, it is definitely there, and at no point does it "complete" (It's chronic), nor regress. It's not an "arc". 

 

Anyway, we see her catching up to Naruto and Sasuke in the war arc, more or less completing the getting as strong as. Of course, we can absolutely disagree! But this is more of an execution of her powers she has in comparison, I.E., execution. 

That looks like a person who still tries to fix the boat with tissues.

"It looks like development to me". Where? Can you maybe tell me what kind of 'development' Sasuke went through? 

Sasuke has no interest in Killer-Bee
Sasuke has no interest in the tailed-beast
Sasuke has no interest in the goal of Akatsuki
Sasuke gained no benefits during his time in Akatsuki

You can't even explain me the 'development' to let him join Akatsuki in the first place (because there was none), and now you want to convince me that he developed during his time with akatsuki ?

I don't care if there was a whole talk about him being worried about manipulation. Even if Sasuke were 100% sure that he will not be manipulated by Tobi, there still isn't a reason to join in the first place. 

Do you understand what 'Decisionmaking' is ? You decide the path which heads you to your goal, or benefits you. Thats atleast how Sasuke is since Part-1, never wasting his time and always decides the Path to acheive his goals.. even if it means to abandon his friends. Now all of sudden he is willing to waste his time for something without any benefits or short-cuts to his main-goal? Ye thats really empathy showing here

Its just another point to add on top of the other reasons to why Sasuke is the worst written Character in the Story. Can you blame Kishi ? driving a Character multiple times within a short time just open up rooms for mistakes and bad-scripted acts. However a good writer would prevent such mistakes, or atleast balance his development to prevent room for mistakes.

-------------------------

I honestly don't want to talk about Sakuras power-scaling. Outside of Naruto, Sasuke and the other villains Kishimoto showed little interest to scale his other characters. Rock lee and Shikamaru are the only one to notice a progress and their will to improve as shinobis. You could count Neji too, but the others just were buffed at the right time to be somehow 'usefull'. It wasn't important, because they were no part of the big build-up towards the end (Sasuke vs Naruto) in terms of power and skill

 

[Riverkid]

 

During the confrontation with Bee himself. Here, he is facing a Tailed beast, dangerous, that threatens each of his friends. He actually protects them here, showing that he is not always indifferent to them. It's also notably that his time with Obito did win him Itachi's eye? What changed his path (He was originally going after Naruto after this) was running into Itachi. 

 

It's still not random. I mean, feel free to disagree or think Sasuke's decision making is poor, his plan for the world when fighting with Naruto was poor and didn't make sense either. But it's not random, as in, the Author was just rolling die to see what would happen next. 

"he is facing a Tailed beast, dangerous, that threatens each of his friends"

What are you (or Sasuke) expecting to happen? Of course he is going to be dangerous if someone wants to capture/kill him, he just protects himself. Thats why i don't understand at all why Sasuke is putting himself (+ his Team) in such danger for something he doesn't even want to fight for in the first place, and he even provoces that danger.

Just face it. Most of the Characters in the Story (Sasuke the most) are acting in service for the plot, rather than the story happening as a consequence of the characters actions. Thats why it feels forced with less or zero empathy. Narutos character isn't any better.. however the problem of Naruto is more his restricted Characterdesign, while Sasukes characterwriting is the biggest problem.

Why does Sasuke stays away from Konoha after killing Orochimaru ? He only left the village for Orochimaru. He would not only get help from Konoha hunting down Itachi (because Itachi was a wanted enemy for Konoha too).. no he would also have the basis again to rebuild his own clan. He only killed Orochimaru at that time, so he wouldn't even face some aftermath (because Orochimaru was also a wanted enemy for Konoha). 

No.. instead Sasuke is going around with his own Team, having to deal with Konoha and the other allied nations as a burden.. he even makes things more complicated and harder towards his goal hunting down itachi. Why did Kishimoto wanted him to stay away? because for the build-up, and creating a parallel-team competing with Narutos-team. 

Thats just one example to  how Sasuke is just acting for the plot and the build up, thats why his decisions feels so questionable.

BAD WRITING!

 

[Riverkid]

So you are saying Plot Driven Stories are bad writing, literally, you are complaining that things aren't character driven, that the characters are reacting to the external forces at hand. Because neither is superior over the other.That's literally what you are saying in one of your paragraphs. Neither plot driven or character driven are worse or better then the other. Plot Driven does not equate "forced', as the character still chooses how to deal with the situation at hand. 

 

And why would Sasuke return? He left, which makes him rogue, and he still sought revenge against Itachi. 

 

Sure, we can complain about Taka's execution, they don't parallel much with his old Team 7,  and at a glance they are simpler weaker versions that don't get much development. 

 

Further, Sasuke parts here aren't even part of the main plot. You can call Sasuke's portions here subplot. The pursuit of him from the other side is plot though, and this more or less shows what Sasuke is doing during said pursuit or other main plot events. 

Plot-Drive stories aren't always bad written.
Plot-Drive stories are stories where the driving force is outside from the decision-making of an Character. (Where the Characters needs to adapt, and make decision around the drive of the world (or something else) is pressuring him.
The Plot around Sasuke is descided/drived by his actions and decisions.

So those are 2 different things you try to argue.
 

Edited by Riverkid, 21 August 2017 - 06:35 PM.

[Riverkid]

 

1: Correct.

2: Not entirely correct. It's not the world, it's the plot, and the plot that has the larger emphasis. (Notably though Sasuke is not a main character, thus subplot would better bereft what he is going through). Plot Twists, actions external conflict, all plot driven things. But maybe you are trying to say this, and in that case, yeah. 

3: Not so, because Obito gives him something to do (Plot driven), really at each point, (Eight Tails, Danzo). Whenever Sasuke is about to do something, someone else drives him somewhere (Itachi is next after those examples). This is called Plot Driven. It's literally what the complaint above is about. And that's fine to have, as long as you understand that is your complaint. 

Plot-Drive is when the Plot forces/pressures the Character to make a move or decision.
Like Joker kidnapping Harvy dent and Rachel on different places, forcing Batman to decide which one he is trying to rescue. 

No one forced Sasuke to kill Itachi
No one forced Sasuke to follow Orochimaru
No one forced Sasuke to kill Danzo
No one forced Sasuke to join Akatsuki
No one forced Sasuke not going back to Konoha, instead creating his own Team

obito just give him 'options', thats not a drive.

So 'Plot-Drive' doesn't excist around Sasuke.

 

Edited by Riverkid, 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Riverkid]

 

I'm afraid that's not an accurate depiction of plot driven. The Plot drives Sasuke, he does not drive it, or rather, his subplots. Killer Bee, Konoha, don't really change or morph because of him. You can tell in the way that what Obito gives him are almost like mission assignments. "Mission Assignments", are a very telling way to identify a plot driven story. 

 

The Dark Knight is actually very character driven. Your example even puts forth an internal conflict, because Batman has to decide who he is going to choose. Worse, batman does choose, but the Joker lied, and Rachel dies anyway. The Joker's existence more or less revolves around his existence to foil. Change things about Batman and things collapse, because so much relies on who the character is. 

 

This isn't to say there aren't character drivem moments. Sasuke choosing to strike Danzo while he was holding Karin only works because of who Sasuke is. But ultimately the plot itself is plot driven, because Sasuke's existence didn't set these things in motion, elements of the plot did. Whereas the Dark Knight, Batman is the character that sets up all of these actions/counter actions in motion.

 

Granted, Sasuke is not the best piece of analysis, being a deuteragonist versus a protagonist with how the plot runs anyway, it'd probably be easier for grasping the concepts by comparing Naruto and the Dark Knight. 

Joker forces Batman to make a move or decision, he drives him. Batman becomes the dark knight because of the Joker (antagonist). 


Sasuke decides on his own what he wants to do next. without pressure or someone who drives him
 

Edited by Riverkid, 21 August 2017 - 08:16 PM.

[Riverkid]

He does, but it is Batman's actions on the mob that more or less form the Joker to come into the plot. The two characters rely on eachother. 

 

Also thanks for the link, but watched that video before. 

 

The last part is not true, as each decision is more or less an influence from another character, as I supported earlier (Mission, go take out Killer Bee, take out Danzo, follow me (Itachi), I can help you find answers by bringing back the Kage (Orochimaru). 

The two characters doesn't rely on each other in "The Dark Knight". They rely on eachother in the whole DCverse. The Dark Knight is about Batman trying to Stop Joker who is 2 steps ahead of his actions. The Jokes drives the Plot, and Batman tries to stop him. 

I dont know why we are even talking about that matter, i just put "The Dark Knight" as an example to how a Plot-Drive Story looks like for an Character where his decisions and moves are forced by the plot. 

So stop comparing or even saying that Sasuke is in the same case, just because you aren't able to defend his poor writing. Just because i said that his actions only services the Plot doesn't mean for you to bring up the argumentation that Sasuke is 'suddenly' a Plot-Drive character, just so you can bring up that "Plot-Drive Stories aren't alway bad"- Bullsht.

No one gives him the mission to follow Orochimaru, or creating his own team, or deciding to become the next Hokage etc. 
Just because there are 'Options' for him doesn't mean that he is drived or forced by the Plot. He creates the Plot with his decisions.

What do you think will happen when Sasuke didn't decide to follow Orochimaru ? It would change the whole Plot.
What do you think will happen if Batman decide not to help Gotham from Joker? The Plot would still continue with Joker creatingChaos in Gotham, and the Plot was about Joker creating chaos (and batman trying to stop Joker as a result)

-----------------------------------

Stop saying that Sasuke is Plot-driven. He acts to service the Plot and Intention of Kishimoto for his build-up, which affects him in a bad-writing because he is'nt Plot-Driven and the Plot is formed around his actions.

Edited by Riverkid, 22 August 2017 - 04:58 AM.