73 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Uh, the village elders initially wanted Jiraiya for the position, not Tsunade. Jiraiya didn't want the responsibility so he suggested Tsunade instead. I wouldn't say weakest, I hate to say it, but i think Orochimaru was the strongest of them all, I mean he was able to fend of both Tsunade and Jiraiya even with his hands sealed. But then again, Jiraiya couldn't fight at his fullest potential since he was drugged by Tsunade.

Nope, Orochimaru was actually the weakest, Tsunade is the strongest, that point has been subtly made several times. Orochimaru thought he was the strongest because he knew a huge amount of jutsus, but that knowledge did nothing for him in the end. Jiraiya's will allowed him to both give warning to Konoha, and die the way he wanted to. Jiraiya's final conversation with Tsunade pointed out again how Tsunade is actually the strongest Sannin. Tsunade's only weakness is psychological, and that she has the ability and will to overcome. Tsunade has no doubts in herself like Jiraiya had, but nor does she delude herself that she is better than she is like Orochimaru did, she balances between the two poles, she is realistic but with a fierce will.

The elders wanted Jiraiya because Tsunade wasn't there. The moment Jiraiya suggested Tsunade they made no objections just asked him if he could find her. And when she arrived she was immediately made Hokage- no tests or challenges.

I think Tsunade might die, but she will take out all of Pein's bodies that are there before she does. She'll likely end up dying because she will have to use her regeneration ability to make the final blow. That will turn out to be one time too many using the ability and yeah I think she'll die with Sakura and Shizune in her presence after the battle. She'll have some sort of final message for both of them.

[Vicious]

I have my doubts for Tsunade dying... for various reason.

1. She is the Hokage, if she dies can you really picture Kakashi being the Hokage? It just doesn't suit him.

2. Someone dying is not the only method Kishimoto-chan has to allow a personality changes in one of the characters, take Gaara for example who in heavens name died to make him quit his bloodbathing spree? Nobody.

3. I really can't imagine two Hokages dying in such a short period of time.

Let's try and be logical as well as reasonable for this shall we? Sakura can just have a different life altering experiences.

[FullmetalNinja25]

I have my doubts for Tsunade dying... for various reason.

Ok shoot.

1. She is the Hokage, if she dies can you really picture Kakashi being the Hokage? It just doesn't suit him.

Maybe not but both Jiraiya and Tsunade have acknowledged he'd make a great Hokage in Chapter 367.

2. Someone dying is not the only method Kishimoto-chan has to allow a personality changes in one of the characters, take Gaara for example who in heavens name died to make him quit his bloodbathing spree? Nobody.

The death of his aunt was one of the causes of his bloodlust.

3. I really can't imagine two Hokages dying in such a short period of time.

Though its been 3 years in the manga it's actually been 6 years since Sarutobi died.

Let's try and be logical as well as reasonable for this shall we? Sakura can just have a different life altering experiences.

I'll agree with you there for example Sasuke trying to kill her could really change things for her.

[ciardha]

The death of his aunt was one of the causes of his bloodlust.

Yashamaru was Gaara's uncle, not aunt. (Younger brother of Gaara's mother.)

[Nasir]

Nope, Orochimaru was actually the weakest, Tsunade is the strongest, that point has been subtly made several times. Orochimaru thought he was the strongest because he knew a huge amount of jutsus, but that knowledge did nothing for him in the end. Jiraiya's will allowed him to both give warning to Konoha, and die the way he wanted to. Jiraiya's final conversation with Tsunade pointed out again how Tsunade is actually the strongest Sannin. Tsunade's only weakness is psychological, and that she has the ability and will to overcome. Tsunade has no doubts in herself like Jiraiya had, but nor does she delude herself that she is better than she is like Orochimaru did, she balances between the two poles, she is realistic but with a fierce will.

The elders wanted Jiraiya because Tsunade wasn't there. The moment Jiraiya suggested Tsunade they made no objections just asked him if he could find her. And when she arrived she was immediately made Hokage- no tests or challenges.

I think Tsunade might die, but she will take out all of Pein's bodies that are there before she does. She'll likely end up dying because she will have to use her regeneration ability to make the final blow. That will turn out to be one time too many using the ability and yeah I think she'll die with Sakura and Shizune in her presence after the battle. She'll have some sort of final message for both of them.

I disagree, Oro was the weakest? Evidence to support your statement?
I believe we were speaking in terms of physical performance, not psychological.

Out of the three, yes Tsunade might have been the most willfully sound, however I believe she was equally matched with Jiraiya (combat wise), but not more powerful than Orochimaru.

Someone stated that she beat Jiraiya to a pulp after he peeked on her. Assuming that was done for slight comical relief, I think its safe to say Jiaiya really didn't fight back, for instance when Sakura hits Naruto, he really doesn't fight back does he?

Think about it, Tsunade, at her full power along with a semi dazed Jiraiya, was able to fight on equal ground with Orochimaru who couldn't fight at his full potential since his arms were sealed, thus rendering most of his Jutsu unusable.

When was it hinted that she was the strongest? Maybe I'm missing something, but everything I've read/seen so far suggests that she was on equal footing with Jiraiya.

As for Oro being the strongest, lets think back, Jiraiya did say that he couldn't stop Oro from leaving. This implies that Oro and Jiraiya did have clashes in the past of which Oro seemed to get the victory or something along those lines. Someone said that Oro was "pawned" by Itachi, who was 13 at the time. Was he really 13 when he joined Akatsuki? Anyway, yes that is true, but lets not forget, from what we've seen of Itachi, it seems he can fight on or above Hokage level. And to compare Oro to Itachi inb this case is irrelevant, we are comparing the three Saanin.

I hate the guy, but I have to admit, Oro was somewhat strong..

[FullmetalNinja25]

Yashamaru was Gaara's uncle, not aunt. (Younger brother of Gaara's mother.)

Androginy ppl androginy....

[Vicious]

I think the likelihood of Tsunade of all people dying is just very very low, sure Kishimoto loves to make surprises, but I doubt he would ever ever make Kakashi hokage. Ever! Maybe Kakashi dies?

[Juujuu]

NUUU!!!! TSUNADE!!!! >.<

I hope she doesn't die DDD8 I don't wanna cry over anymore awesome characters dying ;___;

Plus, there are ways for a character to grow and develop even with their teacher still living, Sakura is and always was different from the boys of Team seven. It may be that she can find a way to mature at a different pace and for a different reason than them.

But you are right. Kishie seems to have this "You grow up when someone you know dies" trend. With Kakashi it was Obito, Sasuke had Itachi (although I dont know if I would consider it "growing up" yet), Naruto had Jiraiya, and Shikamaru had Asuma. I may have forgotten one but it's 7:14 am and I'm not fully awake yet XDDD

[alucard]

I think the likelihood of Tsunade of all people dying is just very very low, sure Kishimoto loves to make surprises, but I doubt he would ever ever make Kakashi hokage. Ever! Maybe Kakashi dies?

kakashi dieing? not yet. that would be one of the hugest upsets. tsuande might die but for character develpment of sakura possibly but kakashi doesnt have that type of apprentice really that would have a really good effect. but if you think about it. if tsuande dieing it could be the destruction of konoha or throw it into choas to get a huge ass battle going on. ya know?

[Vicious]

Maybe her mother dies?

[Kyuudaime]

Who knows, I mean two sannin are dead, why not kill off the third? I don't think it's necessary to kill off her master to make her "grow up", but then again that's my opinion, and maybe, as previously said, her mother or father will die, I'm pretty sure they're still alive.

[Endros]

Yea, but the parent's death don't mean anything to us as an audience because we have no link to them other than through one of the characters. Therefore, the impact is lessened.

Compare the impact that the death of Tsunade would create to the parents, there's no contest. Tsunade has links to several of the main characters (Naruto, Sakura, and Jiraiya) and is the current leader of the village that will soon be under attack. A village, which let me remind you, has a history of leaders who sacrifice their lives to protect the village from strong threats.

We also have the foreshadowing in several Chapters where she states openly that she's willing to give her life for the village. That opens the way for major growth of TWO characters. The first is Sakura, she would become the leading Medic-Nin in Konoha She would also have to deal with loss and her own path towards becoming adult. The second is Kakashi, who although an adult, is still greatly affected by the loss and subsequent guilt from Obito's death. By forcing responsibility and change on him, you force him to grow and adapt. Supporting these ideas we have foreshadowing and Kishimoto's own comments.

As for the respective strengths of the Sannin, personally I think they are all equal. If we use the current Team 7 and extrapolate backwards based on their respective younger versions, then we can come to the following conclusions:

Technically, with the largest skill-set, and the most perfect use of those skill-sets: Orochimaru (Sasuke) has the advantage, then Tsunade (Sakura), then Jiraiya(Naruto)

Pure Physical power: Its the girl, followed by the loser, then the Genius

And Technique power: Loser, Genius, Girl

But here's where it gets messy... Orochimaru lacks the ability to sacrifice and grow for others, whereas Tsunade and Jiraiya have shown that ability in spades. This is why if the two were ever in a fight against Orochimaru with something important, such as others, at stake they would win hands down.

Jiraiya couldn't stop Orochimaru from leaving because they fought each other to a stand still, like the Sasuke/Naruto fight in the Valley of the End.

So in summary...

Tsunade's death makes sense structurally within the story, emotionally, and purposefully.

Edited by Endros, 28 August 2008 - 02:14 AM.

[Vicious]

I'm still going to keep away from the Tsunade dying idea, surely Kishimoto would suspect that his fans would suspect the third and last Sannin to die like all the others. It's a tradition that is to commonly used in America and I don't think he would be that traditional. Just like in I Am Legend, last one just 'had' to die. There could be a number of people that gets killed to influence Sakura's maturity rate.

Ino, Naruto, Kakashi, Tsunade, her parents(we don't have to have to know them), Shizune, different people of the Konoha 12... lots of people. Ino's to pretty to die though. Plus, we're not even sure if someone DOES die, far as I read Kishimoto said something will happen... doesn't say anything about people dying.

[alucard]

I'm still going to keep away from the Tsunade dying idea, surely Kishimoto would suspect that his fans would suspect the third and last Sannin to die like all the others. It's a tradition that is to commonly used in America and I don't think he would be that traditional. Just like in I Am Legend, last one just 'had' to die. There could be a number of people that gets killed to influence Sakura's maturity rate.

Ino, Naruto, Kakashi, Tsunade, her parents(we don't have to have to know them), Shizune, different people of the Konoha 12... lots of people. Ino's to pretty to die though. Plus, we're not even sure if someone DOES die, far as I read Kishimoto said something will happen... doesn't say anything about people dying.

good point its not as if someone hast o die but to get that maturity growth within sakura who do you really think would be able to do it? we dont know about her mother enough to say it will. naruto already is in training and probably wont be there to fight off the attack. kakashi will be there to fight but he doesnt have that type of influence over sakura. and ino is the shadow of sakura. cmon for 2.5 years she trained sakura and spent possibly every day with her. not saying that tsuande will die but unless i see another way to get a growth out of sakura that a death would give to impact her enough. we all know sakura isnt mature but not to the point that naruto/sasuke is?

[Vicious]

Maybe she gets to know Naruto a little more? She kind of matured when she found out about the Kyuubi eh?

[alucard]

Maybe she gets to know Naruto a little more? She kind of matured when she found out about the Kyuubi eh?

possible but that was just so that she could care more about naruto as you saw when he turned into phsyco boy. she realized only the gravitation of all of it but nothing extra personal has hit her yet. name one thing that has hit her hard enough to mautre more? really the whole know about kyuubi was just to bring her up to speed but now get her to have the best motivation to fight. and it cant just be about naruto not a love manga remember?

[jim1982]

Well, maybe Naruto is the cause, but because he comes back during the fight. If that happened and he got injured, would she just stand by and cry like at the one bridge or will she finnally commit herself to Naruto? that would so maturity.

[Chivalrysae]

There's definitely the possibility that she will die in the upcoming battle, but I don't think her dying would really help move the storyline along. With the death of Jiraiya naruto was able to begin the process of following in his footsteps. But with Sakura, I don't see how Sakura would develop more as a character with Tsunade's death. I think it's more likely she will get beat up pretty badly and possibly Naurot will return to save her. And since she's injured, Sakura would heal her and Tsunade would realize how much Sakura has grown under her tutelage. I think if Tsunade dies, there would be turmoil in the village, since I don't think there is really a clearcut leader next in line unless they intend to take the story down the line of Danzou trying to take over Konoha amongst all the instability.

No offense to Kakashi, but he's too laid back to be Hokage. It takes a strong personality to keep someone like Naruto in line as Hokage. And I think the chemistry there between those two are ideal. I would really like for her to see Naruto succeed her as Hokage. So I think until it gets to the point where Naruto matures enough and becomes stronger, I wouldn't want to see her dying.

[alucard]

There's definitely the possibility that she will die in the upcoming battle, but I don't think her dying would really help move the storyline along. With the death of Jiraiya naruto was able to begin the process of following in his footsteps. But with Sakura, I don't see how Sakura would develop more as a character with Tsunade's death. I think it's more likely she will get beat up pretty badly and possibly Naurot will return to save her. And since she's injured, Sakura would heal her and Tsunade would realize how much Sakura has grown under her tutelage. I think if Tsunade dies, there would be turmoil in the village, since I don't think there is really a clearcut leader next in line unless they intend to take the story down the line of Danzou trying to take over Konoha amongst all the instability.

Yes but tsuande realized that sakura has really grown to her tutelage thats giving tsuande the growing up. but also the death of tsuande will give konoha into that big turmoil which would be needed to show how power pein is and also the fact that we could be able to see other villages' come together in a final ninja war persay? now that possibility that tsuande will get seroiusly injured while sakura tries to heal her with parting words to her. then sakura would definitly move along. cmon so far in all the manga we havnt really seen konoha in a big turmoil but if tsuande would ther would be noone left to take it but also at the same time it would give the ending of naruto beating pein and then becoming hokage? now it might be a huge upset to the community that she will die but we havnt seen enough that woudl mature sakura or give her that perfect reason to fight and train like naruto?