8039 replies to this topic

[AHK]

Cool. No link backing that up. Apparently the french version of SBS 73 says Sanji is the left hand on the crew, but I couldn't find enough evidence to bring it up. So you need good evidence to back up that statement not being mistranslated. Looking it up, I just found kazuki.i on OPforums mentioning it.

 

And as I said before, right and left hand is determined by strength. That's why in every walk scene, Zoro is closest to his right, and Sanji is closest to his left. In every full crew vs full crew fight they've had, Zoro always takes on the right hand and Sanji takes on the left hand. I put Robin above Sanji for significance to the crew, but that didn't give her the left hand status. Zoro sleeps and is the right hand because he is the 2nd strongest, but Sanji cooks and fights the 3rd hardest and isn't left hand? You know how much sense that would make?

 

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone settles the entire debate, since Nami was there and was the one who named the crew name after Sanji. That doesn't even need a translation check or more than 1 person talking about it like the internal captain you mentioned from the yellow databook, and the french sbs 73 volume I mentioned. It is just plain obvious facts that happened.

 

You can say Nami is more important than everyone but Luffy. You can say Nami directs them on the sea, and give her as much significance as you want. I disagree, but can find reasoning behind it. But right and left hand doesn't belong to anyone but the strongest. That's how every crew works. In every fight, Nami goes to the back. In most cases, even Usopp fights stronger people than her (which needs to be fixed imo, because its time for her to shine in combat).

 

As I said earlier, nobody in the OP fandom calls Nami the left hand, because it has always been measured by strength alone. A quick google search of "Nami left hand" will show nothing. That's why I'm so fascinated by this debate. It's the first time for me. I'm a Nami left hand debate virgin. We are the first 2 to ever talk about Nami being the left hand (probably not really).

He didn't "mention it", he highlighted important facts from each of the 5 databooks. There were multiple things listed across multiple different books, regarding multiple different topics. Meanwhile, if you actually looked at the content of SBS 73, you would see that nowhere is it listed that Sanji is the left hand. It doesn't even mention anything near that. So what we have again is are two instances of Oda specifically saying that Nami is more important than most everybody on the crew, disregarding Luffy and Zoro. 

 

He has said that Luffy, Zoro, and Nami are the triggers of One Piece. He has said that Nami is the internal captain of the crew, in the same databook that he acknowledges Zoro as the VC. And then on multiple occasions, based on the way the story is written, he has expressed Nami's importance being paramount to most of the crew, besides Luffy and Zoro. Like we even got a moment where someone from the PK's crew complimented her and told her how important she was. The PK's crew. 

 

The idea that you have where strength determines position is blatantly false. Not only is Nami more important than Sanji, but she was there before Sanji, is acknowledged as one of the three triggers of the story, and when she speaks, everybody including the Captain and the Vice Captain drop what they're doing and follow her orders immediately.

 

Sanji didn't become the "de facto captain" of the crew at any point, you're only exaggerating a moment that on Nami's part was comedic. If Sanji was the "de facto captain", he wouldn't have asked Luffy for permission, he would have done it regardless. After that moment, there was nothing that indicated that Sanji was above any other person in that crew. It isn't fact's that you mentioned, it's twisted interpretations because you're a Sanji fan and try to make him more than what he is. 

 

Luffy's crew has never, ever been based on strength. Luffy is the most important because he's the Captain. Zoro is the right hand because he's the next most important as the Vice Captain, and the next in line as the 2nd member of the crew. Nami follows Zoro as the left hand, because she is the Navigator, as such the next most important, and was the 3rd member of the crew. 

 

By the way, if you want to mention facts, Sanji himself disagrees with you. Consider for a second why Sanji would call Nami "san" and Robin "chan". It's seniority in his eyes. 

 

It has nothing to do with strength. Oda himself on two occasions, the story itself, the characters themselves entirely disagree with you. Be fascinated all you want, it doesn't make you any less wrong. 

[FoolishYoungling]

By the way, if you want to mention facts, Sanji himself disagrees with you. Consider for a second why Sanji would call Nami "san" and Robin "chan". It's seniority in his eyes.

 

Oda actually responded to that very question.

 

Oda: Well I actually didn't think anything of it. Before there was a staff member in our workplace who asked us something interesting. The wish to treat a woman older than you as if she was younger, and a woman younger than you as if she was more of an adult... Is Sanji acquainted with this feeling?

 

Sanji uses San, Swan, Chwan, etc. He mixes it up to make us laugh a little more.

 

You have not once given me proof on the internal or trigger quotes, even though they have nothing to do with being left hand. You have yet to care for who Sanji takes on or how he is always on Luffy's left hand during dramatic walks. You have yet to care for when Nami herself named the crew after Sanji. Of course Sanji asked Luffy for the order. It was the short period during which the real captain was available, and it was something he needed to order; an attack against a Yonko.

 

Is Nami respected by the crew? Yes. Is she in charge when telling the crew where to steer (aside from when Luffy tells them to set sail and stuff)? Yes. Is Nami a key to Luffy becoming Pirate King and finding the One Piece? Yes. But in no way is it implied that she is the left hand, which has always been about strength. You disagree with me on that, and that's just something that we have to agree to disagree on. I was reasonable and said it made some sense to debate her being more useful than Sanji and Robin (and Jinbei now too), but that wouldn't make her the left hand to Luffy. If it did, then why can I only find you talking about it? Why is everyone else talking about the monster trio being the captain with his right and left hand man?

 

Every navigator directs where their ship sails, but none are the left or right hand without superior strength in the crew. Yes, almost every navigator has some leadership on the crew, and everyone listens to them. That isn't just Nami. You believe Zoro is the right hand by just being the 2nd strongest, and you won't put Nami over him? When has Zoro ever ordered the crew around? It doesn't matter, is the answer. He is just the 2nd strongest, and so he is the right hand (as we see in dramatic walks and in battles). Same logic applies to that pervert blonde cook. If you don't apply the same logic, you're doing so to make Nami fit that position.

 

PogChamp

[BlueStarSaber]

In terms of ranking straw hats strength I can see it as

1. Luffy
2. Zoro
3. sanji or Jinbei
4. jinbei or sanji
5. Chopper
6. Nico Robin
7. Franky
8. Brook
9. Ussop or Nami
10. Nami or Ussop 

[FoolishYoungling]

 

In terms of ranking straw hats strength I can see it as

1. Luffy
2. Zoro
3. sanji or Jinbei
4. jinbei or sanji
5. Chopper
6. Nico Robin
7. Franky
8. Brook
9. Ussop or Nami
10. Nami or Ussop

Chopper and Franky with armament haki will be overpowered.

[sushi.]

In terms of ranking straw hats strength I can see it as

• Luffy
• Zoro
• sanji or Jinbei
• jinbei or sanji
• Chopper
• Nico Robin
• Franky
• Brook
• Ussop or Nami
• Nami or Ussop 

I actually agree with most of this but I'd switch Robin and Chopper's places. Chopper is a stronger fighter in the traditional sense, but I think Robin's fruit is very efficient and after the timeskip she's become so skilled at it she can use it in so many ways. I might put Franky above Chopper too because his fight with that big baby on Dressrosa really impressed me. He has strength much like Chopper, but the latter lacks all the various cyborg powers.

Jinbe might be a bit stronger than Sanji but idk if Oda will break up 'the monster trio' so.

AHK if Nami's suffix indicated anything I think he'd call Luffy, his captain 'san' too. I think Oda just like the ring of san on Nami and chan on Robin.

[BlueStarSaber]

Chopper and Franky with armament haki will be overpowered.

Depends on with Haki they get, besides can cyborgs even use it in one piece

 

AHK, the lower Usopp falls the higher he rises. He was at his lowest point at the end of W7, then he became Sogeking to save Robin. When he cowered in Dressrosa and lied to the tontattas, he defeated Sugar and became a hero to them and all citizens who were toys.(making more SH allies in the same breath, which will serve them in the long run when taking down Yonkos.)

 

So, why hold Usopp's cowardice against him when it's the catalyst to his developments?

 

I honestly hated how Ussop ran away and blamed franky in dressrosa (and so did alot of you tubers) I get that Oda needed a away to give Ussop a big moment, but this could of been done without having to regress Ussop as a coward just to make a gag joke. It felt like Ussop was going one step forward and two steps back.  

Because he made a promise to himself that he would be better for Luffy in the New World, because he saw how much Luffy did for all of them. And the first time something got hard for him, he reneged on that and abandoned his crew and Luffy at the drop of the hat, without even a second thought. Contrast that to Nami, who made that same promise, but when it got hard for her she chose to stay with Luffy and fight with him against Big Mom's army, even though she knew there was no way they'd win.

I don't only hold Usopp to it, Sanji is guilty of the same thing this arc albeit to a lesser extent. FY's "left hand" (which is untrue) gave up on Luffy the first time it got hard for him.

I have to admit I'm very impressed with how Nami has been in whole cake island, she just as good if not better than she was at enies lobby 

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 15 May 2017 - 09:35 PM.

[sushi.]

Chopper and Franky with armament haki will be overpowered.

One day they have to be on par with Yonkos and we're a bit more than halfthrough the series. I donmt think Franky will need Haki but he'll upgrade his cyborg more and more, and Chopper might one day transform without a pill.

But I really want Robin to have Haki, at least one of them. I never thought anyone beside the trio would have them but Usopp got it. Although, a sniper without Haki in the New World will be quite useless I think Oda understood that, and he probably won't unlock the other two.

I don't remember Usopp leaving and blaming Franky on DR? I forgave him for lying to tontattas and all but that's going too far.

[BlueStarSaber]

One day they have to be on par with Yonkos and we're a bit more than halfthrough the series. I donmt think Franky will need Haki but he'll upgrade his cyborg more and more, and Chopper might one day transform without a pill.

But I really want Robin to have Haki, at least one of them. I never thought anyone beside the trio would have them but Usopp got it. Although, a sniper without Haki in the New World will be quite useless I think Oda understood that, and he probably won't unlock the other two.

I don't remember Usopp leaving and blaming Franky on DR? I forgave him for lying to tontattas and all but that's going too far.

 

I'm hoping Robin gets Haki as well, since she also has assassin skills

http://www.mangapart...p-Runs-Away.jpg

[FoolishYoungling]

One day they have to be on par with Yonkos

Only Zoro, Sanji, and maybe Jinbei will need to be that strong. Luffy will need to be much more, obviously.

[sushi.]

Only Zoro, Sanji, and maybe Jinbei will need to be that strong. Luffy will need to be much more, obviously.

Yeah I didn't mean they should all be Kaidos, but endgame crew should be similar to the yonko commanders. Whitebeard had more than three strong ones, but with Jinbe on board it might be enough.

Still want Haki for Robin tho. Most vice admirals have Haki including Smoker. You don't need to be a Haki monster like Shanks to use it, therefore I don't think it's overpowered in itself.

Edited by sushi., 15 May 2017 - 10:17 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Yeah I didn't mean they should all be Kaidos, but endgame crew should be similar to the yonko commanders. Whitebeard had more than three strong ones, but with Jinbe on board it might be enough.

Still want Haki for Robin tho. Most vice admirals have Haki including Smoker. You don't need to be a Haki monster like Shanks to use it, therefore I don't think it's overpowered in itself.

Everyone should be $400,000,000 bounty or higher in the end, so yeah they all need to get much stronger. Which means everyone of them needs haki, right?

[AHK]

Oda actually responded to that very question.
 
Oda: Well I actually didn't think anything of it. Before there was a staff member in our workplace who asked us something interesting. The wish to treat a woman older than you as if she was younger, and a woman younger than you as if she was more of an adult... Is Sanji acquainted with this feeling?
 
Sanji uses San, Swan, Chwan, etc. He mixes it up to make us laugh a little more.
 
You have not once given me proof on the internal or trigger quotes, even though they have nothing to do with being left hand. You have yet to care for who Sanji takes on or how he is always on Luffy's left hand during dramatic walks. You have yet to care for when Nami herself named the crew after Sanji. Of course Sanji asked Luffy for the order. It was the short period during which the real captain was available, and it was something he needed to order; an attack against a Yonko.
 
Is Nami respected by the crew? Yes. Is she in charge when telling the crew where to steer (aside from when Luffy tells them to set sail and stuff)? Yes. Is Nami a key to Luffy becoming Pirate King and finding the One Piece? Yes. But in no way is it implied that she is the left hand, which has always been about strength. You disagree with me on that, and that's just something that we have to agree to disagree on. I was reasonable and said it made some sense to debate her being more useful than Sanji and Robin (and Jinbei now too), but that wouldn't make her the left hand to Luffy. If it did, then why can I only find you talking about it? Why is everyone else talking about the monster trio being the captain with his right and left hand man?
 
Every navigator directs where their ship sails, but none are the left or right hand without superior strength in the crew. Yes, almost every navigator has some leadership on the crew, and everyone listens to them. That isn't just Nami. You believe Zoro is the right hand by just being the 2nd strongest, and you won't put Nami over him? When has Zoro ever ordered the crew around? It doesn't matter, is the answer. He is just the 2nd strongest, and so he is the right hand (as we see in dramatic walks and in battles). Same logic applies to that pervert blonde cook. If you don't apply the same logic, you're doing so to make Nami fit that position.

If you couldn't tell, he was referring to the variations that Sanji uses with the name, not actually why he addresses them with the suffix he does. The fact remains that Sanji always calls Nami either "san" or a variation, and Robin "chan" or a variation. He never calls Robin "san" or Nami "chan". "San" is used to reference someone older than you, or someone that is a superior. "Chan" is used as to address a junior or in rank or age. Given that Nami is younger and Robin is older, he addresses Nami with "San" because she is a superior, and "chan" because Robin isn't, given when they actually joined the crew. @Sushi, Sanji doesn't address Luffy with a suffix because he's a male, not because he doesn't abide by it. 
 
I have though given you proof lmfao, you even went and found them, and then came crying back about not having proof because you're wrong. but just so that there's no mistake:
 

If anyone else wants to see

"Luffy, Zoro, Nami, for now, the triggers/detonators are gathered ...." Color Walk 1 (2001)
http://forums.arlong...ead.php?t=42229

 

By the way, that's^ from Sandman, someone who gives spoilers from OP weekly

 

4. Nami is the internal captain on ship.

https://opforum.net/...l-version.3676/
 
From someone who actually read all the databooks, and gave important points about all of them.

 
You not being able to handle them because they show that you're wrong, and denying them does not mean that I haven't given proof. In the yellow databook, Grand Elements, Oda says that Nami is the internal captain of the crew. In a colorwalk interview, he says that Luffy, Zoro, and Nami are the triggers of One Piece. Both are facts, both prove you wrong. 

 

I don't care about it because it was a gag moment, clearly. Sanji didn't show anything involving being the leader either there, or when next we saw him, so it is irrelevant. 

 

It has been implied multiple times for all the reasons that are bolded. Not only that, but Oda himself has acknowledged it even outside the story. You choosing to ignore it does not mean that it's false. 

 

I put Zoro over Nami because he is the first mate, the vice captain. That is why he is over her, not because he's simply strong. Your absolute insistence that strength is the only thing that matters shows that you don't actually have a grasp on the SH's to begin with - Luffy has never, never, cared about purely strength. Zoro showed how he was the VC when he initially fought Usopp's return to the crew, going against Luffy. Zoro showed how he is the VC, the right hand, on PH when he told Luffy to get it together. It wasn't an accident that the three most important members of the crew were at Luffy's meeting with Pekoms. The fact that Zoro and Nami were highlighted during the debate about Usopp, and then again when it came to Sanji on Zou should tell you something. I'm not applying the same logic you have because you're wrong. Strength alone has never determined anything within the Straw Hat crew. 

 

 

I honestly hated how Ussop ran away and blamed franky in dressrosa (and so did alot of you tubers) I get that Oda needed a away to give Ussop a big moment, but this could of been done without having to regress Ussop as a coward just to make a gag joke. It felt like Ussop was going one step forward and two steps back.  

 

I have to admit I'm very impressed with how Nami has been in whole cake island, she just as good if not better than she was at enies lobby 

Completely agree with the point about Usopp. Usopp showed zero development, his display on Dressrosa was pathetic. 

 

Nami has been amazing this arc. The parts where she helped Luffy against Cracker and when she stayed with Luffy against the army despite knowing they would lose was awesome.

[rocci]

@sushi
In term of feat of strength, I will put franky as the fifth strongest below Jinbei since sanji will always be the third.
I think it could be changed when sh fight kaido, and robin show her true power.

@bluestar
That's just a gag, just like nami coward, zoro lost, luffy stupidity/naivety.
It wouldn't change.

@fy
Luffy will become stronger eventually.
I predict by the time he fight kaido he either will use gear fifth or get Df awaken.

His fight with bm, he will become a giant.

[BlueStarSaber]

Completely agree with the point about Usopp. Usopp showed zero development, his display on Dressrosa was pathetic. 

 

Nami has been amazing this arc. The parts where she helped Luffy against Cracker and when she stayed with Luffy against the army despite knowing they would lose was awesome.

Not even the God moments make up for, heck I was even annoyed how some of them turned on him when Doflamingo put a bounty of 500 mil on him just to do another gag.

I think my favourite moment with Nami this arc is when she asked the hommies who's worse between cracker or big mum and they replied she was. 

@bluestar
That's just a gag, just like nami coward, zoro lost, luffy stupidity/naivety.
It wouldn't change.

I don't mind gags but there is a time and place for them and chapter 740 was not one of them

[FoolishYoungling]

I have though given you proof lmfao, you even went and found them, and then came crying back about not having proof because you're wrong. but just so that there's no mistake:
 

If anyone else wants to see

"Luffy, Zoro, Nami, for now, the triggers/detonators are gathered ...." Color Walk 1 (2001)
http://forums.arlong...ead.php?t=42229

 

By the way, that's^ from Sandman, someone who gives spoilers from OP weekly

 

4. Nami is the internal captain on ship.

https://opforum.net/...l-version.3676/
 
From someone who actually read all the databooks, and gave important points about all of them.

Left out that "for now" part. And that 2nd one isn't a valid source. The first one is valid because it's Sandman. He was the first to report Rukia x Ichigo didn't happen. Hurt my feelings.

 

The debate is over because I'm using strength and you're using significance to say who is the left hand (even though I put Sanji over Nami in significance). We have said all our points. You're now saying that it was a gag that Sanji led the crew. You've also avoided the walk scenes I keep bring up as much as you can. Makes no sense at all, but that's what I mean by we've used all our talking points. We're not going to concede to the other's viewpoints. That doesn't happen in most debates. Most debates are two (or more) going at it, and the people reading/watching take sides.

 

You think Nami is left hand because you see her as commanding and significant. I see Sanji as left hand because I see him as the 3rd strongest on the crew, and because the one time we've had to see who led the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone, Oda chose Sanji instead of Nami or anybody else. The two of us won't change are stance unless there is a quote from Oda himself saying who is 3rd in command. Maybe we'll get that from a SBS or from when they start commanding the alliance. Until we get more, this debate isn't going anywhere further. We still don't know for sure who will be stronger in the end; Jinbei or Sanji.

[sushi.]

When you mention it AHK, the one who backed up Zoro when he objected Usopp's return was Sanji, not Nami. That backfired lol

I don't mind gags but there is a time and place for them and chapter 740 was not one of them

I agree. That's a kitten move. AHK saying that he didn't show development at all is blatantly wrong though?? Did you read the rest of the arc?

Edited by sushi., 15 May 2017 - 11:08 PM.

[AHK]

Not even the God moments make up for, heck I was even annoyed how some of them turned on him when Doflamingo put a bounty of 500 mil on him just to do another gag.
I think my favourite moment with Nami this arc is when she asked the hommies who's worse between cracker or big mum and they replied she was.

Yeah, the entire thing was kinda bad. To be fair though, that I expected more out of Usopp is my fault, given that he had never given me any license to expect something more from him.

I remember that, she's been hilarious in this arc. If I had to pick, it would probably be the Luffy/Nami vs the army sequence. She showed so much development there...I think it's cool that Nami shines particularly when it involves Luffy. It makes the dynamic of their relationship that much more special.

Left out that "for now" part. And that 2nd one isn't a valid source. The first one is valid because it's Sandman. He was the first to report Rukia x Ichigo didn't happen. Hurt my feelings.
 
The debate is over because I'm using strength and you're using significance to say who is the left hand (even though I put Sanji over Nami in significance). We have said all our points. You're now saying that it was a gag that Sanji led the crew. You've also avoided the walk scenes I keep bring up as much as you can. Makes no sense at all, but that's what I mean by we've used all our talking points. We're not going to concede to the other's viewpoints. That doesn't happen in most debates. Most debates are two (or more) going at it, and the people reading/watching take sides.
 
You think Nami is left hand because you see her as commanding and significant. I see Sanji as left hand because I see him as the 3rd strongest on the crew, and because the one time we've had to see who led the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone, Oda chose Sanji instead of Nami or anybody else. The two of us won't change are stance unless there is a quote from Oda himself saying who is 3rd in command. Maybe we'll get that from a SBS or from when they start commanding the alliance. Until we get more, this debate isn't going anywhere further. We still don't know for sure who will be stronger in the end; Jinbei or Sanji.

Because the "for now" part has no relevance. It only isn't a valid source to you because you disagree with it and it proves you wrong.

I said the naming of the group was a gag, and given that Sanji actually didn't lead given that he asked Luffy for permission, he didn't actually lead at any point in time following. You wrongly use strength even though strength has never been a factor in regards to Luffy. Oda never chose Sanji to lead, because Sanji never lead lmao

Meanwhile Oda has said that Nami is one of the three most important figures in the story and that she's the internal captain, and has stated her importance and shown her leading on multiple occasions simply because you don't like it. And let's not forget that your wannabe left hand just quit on Luffy. Whoops.

When you mention it AHK, the one who backed up Zoro when he objected Usopp's return was Sanji, not Nami. That backfired lolI agree. That's a kitten move. AHK saying that he didn't show development at all is blatantly wrong though?? Did you read the rest of the arc?

You not understanding the reference is not my point backfiring. If it was about who was backing who, then Nami would have been backing Luffy, i.e. the most important member of the crew.

What I was pointing out was that there were two lines of thought being highlighted, Zoro's vs Nami. The same thing was highlighted on Zou, in regards to Sanji's position on the crew. Zoro vs Nami, because behind Luffy, their opinions (sometimes competing) are the most highlighted.

And last, no, it isn't blatantly wrong, yes I did read the rest of the arc. Usopp has run away and come back before, so he didn't develop. Honestly, Usopp regressed. Again, he ran away knowing that Luffy needed him, breaking a promise that the entire crew made to themselves. It would have been different pre-ts, but it was unacceptable following it. Usopp showed no character development.

Edited by AHK, 16 May 2017 - 12:10 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Because the "for now" part has no relevance. It only isn't a valid source to you because you disagree with it and it proves you wrong.

I said the naming of the group was a gag, and given that Sanji actually didn't lead given that he asked Luffy for permission, he didn't actually lead at any point in time following. You wrongly use strength even though strength has never been a factor in regards to Luffy. Oda never chose Sanji to lead, because Sanji never lead lmao

Meanwhile Oda has said that Nami is one of the three most important figures in the story and that she's the internal captain, and has stated her importance and shown her leading on multiple occasions simply because you don't like it. And let's not forget that your wannabe left hand just quit on Luffy. Whoops.

See. You are shifting the quotes to mean what you want them to mean. You keep doing that, and acting like Sanji didn't lead the crew, because that would end the debate with a winner. That's why I'm done debating this. You won't see eye to eye with what I find obvious in my head, and I won't see eye to eye with what you find obvious in your head. The debate is done.

[AHK]

See. You are shifting the quotes to mean what you want them to mean. You keep doing that, and acting like Sanji didn't lead the crew, because that would end the debate with a winner. That's why I'm done debating this. You won't see eye to eye with what I find obvious in my head, and I won't see eye to eye with what you find obvious in your head. The debate is done.

I wasn't shifting anything lol Sanji didn't lead anything. "Shifting quotes" LOL but you're straight up denying them, and the story.

Edited by AHK, 16 May 2017 - 12:42 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

I wasn't shifting anything lol Sanji didn't lead anything. "Shifting quotes" LOL but you're straight up denying them, and the story.

You were. He did. And nope.