8039 replies to this topic

[T XD]

The future Queen will not be below the 3rd position in the Straw Hat

[AHK]

BM and Kaido have 3. Everyone after the first 3 division commanders for Whitebeard weren't that strong (for New World terms of strength). Endgame Nami will be like 400,000,000 beli, while Sanji will be around 1,000,000,000 at endgame. That is a giant difference, seeing how 500,000,000 Luffy is 2x stronger than 400,000,000 Luffy. Don't act like the 2nd weakest Straw Hat will be close to the top 5 Straw Hat fighters in the end.
 
My Straw Hat importance rankings:
 
1. Luffy - Greatest fighter, but dumb
2. Zoro - Top 5 strongest fighter, but slow
3. Robin - Top 25 strongest fighter, greatest support to a Pirate King
4. Sanji - Top 10 strongest fighter, best cook
5. Jinbei - Top 15 strongest fighter, great underwater and at sailing a ship
6. Nami - Top 50 strongest fighter, greatest navigator
7. Franky - Top 35 strongest fighter, greatest shipwright
8. Brook - Top 40 strongest fighter, makes skull jokes
9. Chopper - Top 45 strongest fighter, one of the best doctors in the world
10. Usopp - Top 55 strongest fighter, but scared until he becomes a great warrior of the sea

Ok, but Teach and Shanks have more than 3, given by their standoff at Marineford (which you could clearly see who contrasted who), and the fact that Teach's crew is a replica of WB's crew. It doesn't matter that you don't believe that after the 3rd division, the other commanders were weak. First, you're wrong, and second, they're still division commanders. So yes, Nami will be commander level because she will have to be to beat her counterpart in both Shanks and Teach's crew.

LOL how is it that you try to say that your "rankings" are inclusive of everything they offer the SH's, and still put Nami below Sanji? You seem not to understand that without Nami, they don't go anywhere. There isn't this "imo" stuff, Oda has clearly stated where Nami ranks in the crew.

^Are you ranking in terms of general importance or battle contributions? If simply importance, I'd rank Brook, Chopper and Franky on the bottom. I like Brook but, nah.
 
If you're talking fighting, Robin is veryvery important because she can read poneglyphs, but in terms of fighting Sanji always takes on the stronger enemy.
 
I also wouldn't put Usopp on the bottom. He usually ends up being the most important fighter after the monster trio. He takes down key enemies and is the only one besides the trio that has Haki, even though he only awakened one type.
 
Lastly we don't know what Jinbe will bring to the crew yet, and he's still not a member. We don't how strong he's become after two years either, so I'd wait putting him on a list. Hopefully he'll accompany them to Wano.

"Simply importance", but you'd rank the shipright and the doctor at the bottom of the crew, and have Usopp above him. That's ridiculous.

Usopp is never the most important fighter after Luffy, Zoro, and sanji. He almost never takes out the key enemy, he's only done so once, and that's in dressrosa. Usopp is the weakest member of the crew, and will always be so.

As for Jinbe, he's a former Schibukai, and given everything he's demonstrated, he was stronger two years ago than Sanji is now.

Edited by AHK, 13 May 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Ok, but Teach and Shanks have more than 3, given by their standoff at Marineford (which you could clearly see who contrasted who), and the fact that Teach's crew is a replica of WB's crew. It doesn't matter that you don't believe that after the 3rd division, the other commanders were weak. First, you're wrong, and second, they're still division commanders. So yes, Nami will be commander level because she will have to be to beat her counterpart in both Shanks and Teach's crew.

LOL how is it that you try to say that your "rankings" are inclusive of everything they offer the SH's, and still put Nami below Sanji? You seem not to understand that without Nami, they don't go anywhere. There isn't this "imo" stuff, Oda has clearly stated where Nami ranks in the crew.

You're saying Nami is commander level to put her on par with Zoro, Sanji, and Jinbei. They will have their bounties above a billion berry, while Nami will not even be half of a billion. Their fighting skills are so far apart it's not even funny. You say you don't get anywhere with Nami navigating, but without the fighters, they don't get off the islands they dock at. I factored in her being the 2nd weakest, but also the 2nd biggest support to Luffy while sailing. I have Robin above Nami in supporting and in fighting, and she is my #3 on the list. Still not the left hand.

 

So let's say Nami is much stronger than 2nd weakest (not happening), and a better support than Robin. She would be 3rd on the list, but still not left hand. As I said much earlier, commanding rank comes down to combat skills, and nothing else. That is obvious by how Luffy (and Nami) let Sanji lead the Curly Hat crew without objection. Even if you try to give Nami as much credit as humanly possible, she will never be the left hand, due to her combat skills being too weak to lead the crew in battle, the most serious moments of their time out on the sea.

 

Also, please show where Oda said she is the left hand. You keep bringing it up, but it doesn't sound like it says "Yo Nami is #3 in commanding the crew!"

[Phantom_999]

Hm, next flash back should be......... interesting

[AHK]

You're saying Nami is commander level to put her on par with Zoro, Sanji, and Jinbei. They will have their bounties above a billion berry, while Nami will not even be half of a billion. Their fighting skills are so far apart it's not even funny. You say you don't get anywhere with Nami navigating, but without the fighters, they don't get off the islands they dock at. I factored in her being the 2nd weakest, but also the 2nd biggest support to Luffy while sailing. I have Robin above Nami in supporting and in fighting, and she is my #3 on the list. Still not the left hand.
 
So let's say Nami is much stronger than 2nd weakest (not happening), and a better support than Robin. She would be 3rd on the list, but still not left hand. As I said much earlier, commanding rank comes down to combat skills, and nothing else. That is obvious by how Luffy (and Nami) let Sanji lead the Curly Hat crew without objection. Even if you try to give Nami as much credit as humanly possible, she will never be the left hand, due to her combat skills being too weak to lead the crew in battle, the most serious moments of their time out on the sea.
 
Also, please show where Oda said she is the left hand. You keep bringing it up, but it doesn't sound like it says "Yo Nami is #3 in commanding the crew!"

No, I'm not. I have never said that Nami is as strong as, or near as strong as Luffy, Zoro, Jinbe, or Sanji. You've just selectively read that, the same way you've selectively read the entire story. I never said that Nami is commander level, I said that she will be by the time they face Teach's crew, because she will have to be.

The fact that you think that strength is what matters shows that you have zero concept of the Straw Hats operate. Luffy has never cared about strength, or else Usopp wouldn't even be in the crew in the first place. This whole "leading the crew in battle" has never been a thing in regards to determining the hierarchy in the crew. Again, you're just pulling up bs qualifiers in order to try and discredit Nami. All Sanji did was attack BM's crew, it doesn't mean that he was the one in charge. And let's say for a second that he was, you picked the one time, and the one time only that he's ever been in charge, which pales in comparison to the number of times Nami has led.

It's funny that you mention the bold, because when it has come down to the most serious times on the sea, Nami has always been in charge.

In an interview in 2001 Oda said that Luffy, Zoro, and Nami were the triggers of OP. Luffy, is the Captain, Zoro is the First Mate, Nami is the Navigator. Those are the first 2 members of the crew, each of them (Zoro and Nami) has taken the lead on multiple occasions. Zoro is the PK's right hand, Nami is the left. Deal with it.

[sushi.]

AHK I never said the SHs should deal without a doctor lmao. I was ranking their individuality, not their professions.

 

Also Usopp's strength isn't his powers, it's his strategies. He's the weakest member of the crew, but if the others were as weak as him they wouldn't win his fights. Not saying the others are all stupid, because Robin and Nami are quite intelligent but Usopp is the strategist in the crew.

 

He fought Perona in Thriller Bark and she wasn't weak, but I don't remember how powerful she was compared to other baddies in that arc. Franky might take on the 4th strongest enemy too, but it's difficult to compare because while he fights with mostly strength, Usopp finds and enemy's weakness and strikes it. He also made an important contribution in Enies Lobby, despite not having a 1v1 fight. Which is what makes me not put him that low, because when it comes down to it Usopp is often given more important moments than Robin, Franky, and Chopper despite lack of power. He also is the crew's crafter, he makes Nami's weapons for example so I think his abilities are well-rounded.

 

(I gotta say I put Brook lowest before reading recent manga spoilers. You go Brook)

 

;About the interview, she being one of the three triggers doesn't make her third boss in itself, it just sounds to me like she was one of the first characters Oda created.

Edited by sushi., 13 May 2017 - 10:15 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

In an interview in 2001 Oda said that Luffy, Zoro, and Nami were the triggers of OP. Luffy, is the Captain, Zoro is the First Mate, Nami is the Navigator. Those are the first 2 members of the crew, each of them (Zoro and Nami) has taken the lead on multiple occasions. Zoro is the PK's right hand, Nami is the left. Deal with it.

Still haven't shown it to me. And that doesn't say she is left in it anywhere. Being a trigger to OP doesn't mean she is in charge on the crew. Everyone knows Nami's backstory was what made One Piece blow up.

 

About the other things you mentioned. Nami isn't in charge in big moments. Saying to sail left doesn't mean she is commanding. Since when is navigating commanding? Luffy is the only one who can command the navigating, as he does to take them to or away from an island. When Usopp runs in fear, you hate it. When Nami does it, she gets a pass? You honestly are saying navigating makes her the left hand? The only crew we've seen in OP with a navigator high in rank was Law's crew, and that is because Bepo is his strongest crew mate, and first mate. You're honestly saying that Nami is the one exception at navigator (screw the fact Roger more than likely had the previous best navigator not ranked high). You're saying her navigating makes her the left hand, despite how much weaker she is to the fighters on the Straw Hats.

 

Despite the fact Sanji led the crew with Luffy and Zoro not there. Don't act like he wasn't in charge. Nami was running around crying while Sanji asked for permission to start the counterattack, with the panel showing him standing up tall with the other SHs running in fear, representing his strength and rank in the crew. Also, Curly Hat is a reference to his hair. The team, named after him (by Nami), and obviously led by him. You don't want to accept that because the second you do the debate is over. It was the one time the crew had to have a new leader with Luffy and Zoro gone. That person chosen was Sanji, not Nami.

 

Maybe we could talk about how much navigating helps her rank, but when you're doing nothing but throwing punches at fodder most of the time in the New World, you can't be ranked too high. That's why she is 5th for me. Not 9th or 10th, 5th. Navigating put her past many great SHs who contribute a ton. And even if you want to throw her up higher because you love her so very much, she wouldn't be named the left hand because she isn't strong enough. The world government, knowing she doesn't fight the big bads, has her at 66,000,000 berry for a reason. Nami is not the left hand, and will never face the left hand of another crew in combat. That will be Sanji, Jinbei, or somebody else like Usopp for comic relief.

[AHK]

Still haven't shown it to me. And that doesn't say she is left in it anywhere. Being a trigger to OP doesn't mean she is in charge on the crew. Everyone knows Nami's backstory was what made One Piece blow up.
 
About the other things you mentioned. Nami isn't in charge in big moments. Saying to sail left doesn't mean she is commanding. Since when is navigating commanding? Luffy is the only one who can command the navigating, as he does to take them to or away from an island. When Usopp runs in fear, you hate it. When Nami does it, she gets a pass? You honestly are saying navigating makes her the left hand? The only crew we've seen in OP with a navigator high in rank was Law's crew, and that is because Bepo is his strongest crew mate, and first mate. You're honestly saying that Nami is the one exception at navigator (screw the fact Roger more than likely had the previous best navigator not ranked high). You're saying her navigating makes her the left hand, despite how much weaker she is to the fighters on the Straw Hats.
 
Despite the fact Sanji led the crew with Luffy and Zoro not there. Don't act like he wasn't in charge. Nami was running around crying while Sanji asked for permission to start the counterattack, with the panel showing him standing up tall with the other SHs running in fear, representing his strength and rank in the crew. Also, Curly Hat is a reference to his hair. The team, named after him (by Nami), and obviously led by him. You don't want to accept that because the second you do the debate is over. It was the one time the crew had to have a new leader with Luffy and Zoro gone. That person chosen was Sanji, not Nami.
 
Maybe we could talk about how much navigating helps her rank, but when you're doing nothing but throwing punches at fodder most of the time in the New World, you can't be ranked too high. That's why she is 5th for me. Not 9th or 10th, 5th. Navigating put her past many great SHs who contribute a ton. And even if you want to throw her up higher because you love her so very much, she wouldn't be named the left hand because she isn't strong enough. The world government, knowing she doesn't fight the big bads, has her at 66,000,000 berry for a reason. Nami is not the left hand, and will never face the left hand of another crew in combat. That will be Sanji, Jinbei, or somebody else like Usopp for comic relief.

I just did lol that simple statement made by Oda is acknowledging that Nami is one of the three most important members of the crew. Zoro is Luffy's right hand, Nami is next in line. But it's funny, because as much as you like to talk about how strength matters, you can't show anything either in the story or in and interview that says that strength is the chief determining factor when ranking the importance of members in the straw hat crew. I'll wait.

Since when is navigating commanding? Are you serious? Maybe when Nami gives an order and everybody drops what they're doing immediately and follows her order to the letter? As for Nami and Usopp, the last time Nami ran away and left her friends was back in Skypeia, and she got immediate character development courtesy of Luffy. Usopp left his friends to burn as recently as Dressrosa, in which he reneged on any character development he had gained since the timeskip, and broke a promise that he made to be better for Luffy. Meanwhile, Nami chose to stick by Luffy against impossible odds in a scenario that she knew they would never win against Big Mom's army. Nami and Usopp aren't even in the same league as each other. Also, as far as your navigator thing, Marco, the first mate of WB's crew, is the navigator. Pointing out other navigators in other crews means nothing, because the SH's aren't like other pirate crews. I don't know why you bother even bringing them up.

Speaking of comic relief, I love how you take a comedic relief moment from Nami and try to turn it into how Sanji is somehow more important than Nami. And even then, Sanji didn't do anything that actually made him a leader. The Sanji fanboyism runs strong with you. There was never a debate to being with, you've been wrong from the start.

For all your talk about strength, it has absolutely zero to do with the order of importance of the crew. When Nami gets serious, everyone listens, including Luffy and Zoro. Oda has separated her from the rest of the crew with Luffy and Zoro, and on multiple occasions shown that Nami is more important than anyone else besides Luffy and Zoro. You're not arguing against me, you're arguing against the manga.

[FoolishYoungling]

She isn't that important AHK... you're the first I've ever seen call her the left hand. Google it. Nobody saying she is the left hand. Nothing in that statement you are using says she is the left hand to Luffy. It doesn't even mention the crew in it. Robin is more important as a support (which is another debate entirely, almost). As a fighter, she is too weak to lead. Navigating so you control the direction the crew takes to not go off course doesn't increase her rank; it makes her navigator. Sanji cooking makes him the cook. It's what they do in battle that determines alpha status like right and left hand man. Zoro sleeps and is the right hand. Why? He is the strongest.

 

Captain's hands

To his right, his right hand man attacks Hody's right hand. To his left, his left hand man attacks Hody's left hand.

 

And then we have the walk. Zoro, closest to his right. Sanji, closest to his left.

 

 

Bonus: Similar to this walk, where Zoro is closest to his right, and Sanji is closest to his left.

 

 

Most serious moments

The only two standing. The strongest swordsman and the one who will cause the marines the most trouble. They have these fights of superiority all the time. Zoro comes out on top, of course, since he is the right hand.

 

Nami isn't the left hand

but she is more likely to end up with Luffy than Sanji.

[sushi.]

AHK, the lower Usopp falls the higher he rises. He was at his lowest point at the end of W7, then he became Sogeking to save Robin. When he cowered in Dressrosa and lied to the tontattas, he defeated Sugar and became a hero to them and all citizens who were toys.(making more SH allies in the same breath, which will serve them in the long run when taking down Yonkos.)

 

So, why hold Usopp's cowardice against him when it's the catalyst to his developments?

[AHK]

AHK, the lower Usopp falls the higher he rises. He was at his lowest point at the end of W7, then he became Sogeking to save Robin. When he cowered in Dressrosa and lied to the tontattas, he defeated Sugar and became a hero to them and all citizens who were toys.(making more SH allies in the same breath, which will serve them in the long run when taking down Yonkos.)
 
So, why hold Usopp's cowardice against him when it's the catalyst to his developments?

Because he made a promise to himself that he would be better for Luffy in the New World, because he saw how much Luffy did for all of them. And the first time something got hard for him, he reneged on that and abandoned his crew and Luffy at the drop of the hat, without even a second thought. Contrast that to Nami, who made that same promise, but when it got hard for her she chose to stay with Luffy and fight with him against Big Mom's army, even though she knew there was no way they'd win.

I don't only hold Usopp to it, Sanji is guilty of the same thing this arc albeit to a lesser extent. FY's "left hand" (which is untrue) gave up on Luffy the first time it got hard for him.

[FoolishYoungling]

@AHK Reply to sushi and not me? How could you?

[Phantom_999]

You've been dumped!!!!!!!       

[rocci]

She forget to add kun.

[rocci]

And this is why cliché exist, continue, and thrive because people doesn't want flaw of character.

[sushi.]

Because he made a promise to himself that he would be better for Luffy in the New World, because he saw how much Luffy did for all of them. And the first time something got hard for him, he reneged on that and abandoned his crew and Luffy at the drop of the hat, without even a second thought. Contrast that to Nami, who made that same promise, but when it got hard for her she chose to stay with Luffy and fight with him against Big Mom's army, even though she knew there was no way they'd win.

I don't only hold Usopp to it, Sanji is guilty of the same thing this arc albeit to a lesser extent. FY's "left hand" (which is untrue) gave up on Luffy the first time it got hard for him.

Bolded, when did Usopp leave the crew after the timeskip and what promise did he break? I'm not completely caught up. Or are you still stuck on EL?

 

Anyway even if Usopp broke a promise, he still ends up contributing more to the team, doing more for Luffy than Nami, at least on panel. She's great when there is a storm and they won't reach Raftel without her, but the arcs are usually on land, so Oda focuses on Usopp's support more than Nami's. Usopp is the weakest but a more key figure to the team and has more character development than her, thus I rank him higher. However I wouldn't only have one list, but rather divide it into several sections(when it comes to fighting Nami would be stronger than Usopp because of the weapon he made, but he still has more battles than her)

Edited by sushi., 14 May 2017 - 06:27 AM.

[AHK]

Bolded, when did Usopp leave the crew after the timeskip and what promise did he break? I'm not completely caught up. Or are you still stuck on EL?
 
Anyway even if Usopp broke a promise, he still ends up contributing more to the team, doing more for Luffy than Nami, at least on panel. She's great when there is a storm and they won't reach Raftel without her, but the arcs are usually on land, so Oda focuses on Usopp's support more than Nami's. Usopp is the weakest but a more key figure to the team and has more character development than her, thus I rank him higher. However I wouldn't only have one list, but rather divide it into several sections(when it comes to fighting Nami would be stronger than Usopp because of the weapon he made, but he still has more battles than her)

He abandoned everyone on Dressrosa, knowing that they needed him. As for the promise, everyone on the crew made a promise to better themselves for Luffy, as to not burden him, after Ace died.

The bold is blatantly false. By virtue of her position, Nami does more for Luffy than anyone else on the crew. Usopp has never, ever been more of a key figure to the team in total, and his character development is minimal at best. The only time Usopp has done something important where Usopp hasn't is Dressrosa, and that's only because Nami wasn't even there. Not to mention how Usopp backed his way into doing what he did, after abandoning his friends who were counting on him.

@AHK Reply to sushi and not me? How could you?

I already did.

[FoolishYoungling]

I already did.

Lies. Either way, agree to disagree. We both said what we had to say. At this point we are just going to be repeating ourselves.

[AHK]

Lies. Either way, agree to disagree. We both said what we had to say. At this point we are just going to be repeating ourselves.

Yes, you will continue repeating wrong things about the crew.

 

Btw, Oda said in the Yellow Databook that Nami is the internal Captain, and in the same sentence acknowledged that Zoro is basically the Vice-Captain. 

 

Edited by AHK, 15 May 2017 - 05:41 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Btw, Oda said in the Yellow Databook that Nami is the internal Captain, and in the same sentence acknowledged that Zoro is basically the Vice-Captain.

Cool. No link backing that up. Apparently the french version of SBS 73 says Sanji is the left hand on the crew, but I couldn't find enough evidence to bring it up. So you need good evidence to back up that statement not being mistranslated. Looking it up, I just found kazuki.i on OPforums mentioning it.

 

And as I said before, right and left hand is determined by strength. That's why in every walk scene, Zoro is closest to his right, and Sanji is closest to his left. In every full crew vs full crew fight they've had, Zoro always takes on the right hand and Sanji takes on the left hand. I put Robin above Sanji for significance to the crew, but that didn't give her the left hand status. Zoro sleeps and is the right hand because he is the 2nd strongest, but Sanji cooks and fights the 3rd hardest and isn't left hand? You know how much sense that would make?

 

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone settles the entire debate, since Nami was there and was the one who named the crew name after Sanji. That doesn't even need a translation check or more than 1 person talking about it like the internal captain you mentioned from the yellow databook, and the french sbs 73 volume I mentioned. It is just plain obvious facts that happened.

 

You can say Nami is more important than everyone but Luffy. You can say Nami directs them on the sea, and give her as much significance as you want. I disagree, but can find reasoning behind it. But right and left hand doesn't belong to anyone but the strongest. That's how every crew works. In every fight, Nami goes to the back. In most cases, even Usopp fights stronger people than her (which needs to be fixed imo, because its time for her to shine in combat).

 

As I said earlier, nobody in the OP fandom calls Nami the left hand, because it has always been measured by strength alone. A quick google search of "Nami left hand" will show nothing. That's why I'm so fascinated by this debate. It's the first time for me. I'm a Nami left hand debate virgin. We are the first 2 to ever talk about Nami being the left hand (probably not really).

 

lol

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

Sanji becoming the de facto captain of the crew with Luffy and Zoro gone

 

Point to the person

who doesn't see Sanji or Jinbei as the left hand because it isn't determined by strength.

https://opforum.net/...inbei-be.59538/ (yes that's me)