31579 replies to this topic

[rocci]

Sasuke is the rival and avenger. That's his role since the beginning to the end.
He's naruto rival, thus oneway or another he would become naruto equal.
He's an avenger, so he would avenge on something, be it itachi or konoha.

I could say that he's also a heroine and therefor the biggest damsel of distress in the story.

@aevrum
That's because plot demand naruto and sasuke to fight.

Edited by rocci, 17 April 2017 - 05:25 AM.

[Aevrum]

No. He didn't meet Sasuke until the fight with Itachi at the hotel. During which he was already on mission to find Tsunade. By the time he returned Sasuke was already going off the deep end. Even if he decided that Orochimaru's curse seal was a danger and he should put  his own seal on it. Putting a better seal on wouldn't have help by that point other then making the odd in the battle between Naruto and Sasuke more in Naruto's favor. Which he couldn't have known at the time. Sasuke was Kakashi's student Jiraiya felt it was Kakashi's job to take care of him. Which is why he informed Kakashi that he was taking on Naruto as his disciple and then after the time skip told Kakashi that Naruto was his again. It's also why he was the one to have a talk with Naruto about giving up on Sasuke because at the time Naruto was his student and he was giving the advice he felt his student should hear.

But that's what I meant? After they brought Tsunade back, he had enough possibilities to do something. They could have even done something before him waking up, under Tsunade's supervision.

That he is already in 'darkness' is no excuse, plus, initially after waking up, he was still only confused and savable.

And it's not logical to leave him to Kakashi, just because he is 'his student'.
It's not like he will take him from Kakashi; Kakashi didn't have the skill to deal with it, it should have been obvious to Kakashi that he needs help since his talk with Orochimaru during the preliminaries.

And what does Kakashi do? Try to talk reason into him. Yeah, that's surely the better choice than at least let Jiraiya try something.

They could have kept the fight, it would just have been MUCH better, if somehow Jiraiya wasn't able to do something (trying or not) and we got told this in a few panels.

[T XD]

But that's what I meant? After they brought Tsunade back, he had enough possibilities to do something. They could have even done something before him waking up, under Tsunade's supervision.

That he is already in 'darkness' is no excuse, plus, initially after waking up, he was still only confused and savable.

And it's not logical to leave him to Kakashi, just because he is 'his student'.
It's not like he will take him from Kakashi; Kakashi didn't have the skill to deal with it, it should have been obvious to Kakashi that he needs help since his talk with Orochimaru during the preliminaries.

And what does Kakashi do? Try to talk reason into him. Yeah, that's surely the better choice than at least let Jiraiya try something.

They could have kept the fight, it would just have been MUCH better, if somehow Jiraiya wasn't able to do something (trying or not) and we got told this in a few panels.

Sasuke was from the half part of Part 1 and onward not known how to deal with his case. So, whatever seemed the best way to deal with him, it's done.

[VanitasDS76491]

Sasuke was from the half part of Part 1 and onward not known how to deal with his case. So, whatever seemed the best way to deal with him, it's done.

I would argue they really didn't try to deal with the curse mark before it got bad.

[rocci]

I would argue they really didn't try to deal with the curse mark before it got bad.

Kakashi already deal with it, Eventhough it's not enough.

[Legend054]

I still don't consider Sasuke a villain in the story as a whole. Part 1 Sasuke was definitely not a villain. He would've killed Naruto otherwise after the battle in Final Valley. He still had morals. Of course revenge is never a good thing, but it's not like he was plotting an evil plot that would harm innocent people. That only makes him selfish and self-centered, not 'evil'. If he kept going that path there's no doubt he'd become evil. The only part where he showed a villainous personality was in Five Kage Summit after trying to kill Karin and Sakura and when he a made statement of destroying Konoha (which never happened). I thought he became a villain there, but he later had a sudden change of heart after learning the truth from Itachi himself. He decided to join the war and helped Naruto and the others save the world from the true villains like Obito, Madara and Kaguya. So he never really became a villain, but an antagonist for the most part because his ideals counteract Naruto's. He almost became a villain but Naruto prevented him from becoming one. Naruto saved him from going down that path.

 

Obviously I don't favor that he ended up with Sakura. It's out of character for him, that's why he should've just became a villain and died. Now he's out wandering the world and never spends time with his family. He shouldn't have been redeemed. Nothing in Naruto make sense anymore and it's pointless to make sense of it now. It's all a huge mess as one of the above poster says. If kishi had the balls to kill Sasuke maybe all this would've turned out better. 

 

The difference between Kira and Sasuke is that Kira actually ended up becoming a true villain/evil, Sasuke didn't but almost did. Kira got corrupted by the Death Note. You could argue that he was doing everything for the 'greater good', but I'd rather not get into that as it's off topic.

Edited by Legend054, 17 April 2017 - 11:19 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

Man this pic of Hanami looks precious, I mean I've seen several pics, but this one I like: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And also this while I'm at it:

 

[tricksie]

I still don't consider Sasuke a villain in the story as a whole. Part 1 Sasuke was definitely not a villain. He would've killed Naruto otherwise after the battle in Final Valley. He still had morals. Of course revenge is never a good thing, but it's not like he was plotting an evil plot that would harm innocent people. That only makes him selfish and self-centered, not 'evil'. If he kept going that path there's no doubt he'd become evil. The only part where he showed a villainous personality was in Five Kage Summit after trying to kill Karin and Sakura and when he a made statement of destroying Konoha (which never happened). I thought he became a villain there, but he later had a sudden change of heart after learning the truth from Itachi himself. He decided to join the war and helped Naruto and the others save the world from the true villains like Obito, Madara and Kaguya. So he never really became a villain, but an antagonist for the most part because his ideals counteract Naruto's. He almost became a villain but Naruto prevented him from becoming one. Naruto saved him from going down that path.

 

Obviously I don't favor that he ended up with Sakura. It's out of character for him, that's why he should've just became a villain and died. Now he's out wandering the world and never spends time with his family. He shouldn't have been redeemed. Nothing in Naruto make sense anymore and it's pointless to make sense of it now. It's all a huge mess as one of the above poster says. If kishi had the balls to kill Sasuke maybe all this would've turned out better. 

 

The difference between Kira and Sasuke is that Kira actually ended up becoming a true villain/evil, Sasuke didn't but almost did. Kira got corrupted by the Death Note. You could argue that he was doing everything for the 'greater good', but I'd rather not get into that as it's off topic.

I think Sasuke (like Sakura and Naruto) suffers from poor development. He's definitely an anti-hero. He walks a dark path not of his own making, with even his worst behaviors able to be excused or forgiven somehow. (Unlike Danzo, who could have been the darker anti-hero to Sarutobi's lighter path, because Danzo is truly villain in that he is motivated by power disguised as the greater good.) 

 

There was a time that Sasuke came back and wanted to be ruler of Konoha and challenge Naruto for the Kage seat. If that had happened, like I thought it might (giving Team 7 one last final arc where they were focused on tension directly between their group), then Sasuke might have turned into a villain. But that plot thread just got dropped, not resolved. If I remember it's never clearly stated why he gave up on that goal. And Sasuke instead became a wandering monk type, working for the greater good in his own way. Anti-hero.

 

Anyway, Sasuke was never fully developed into any of the avenues his character might have taken:

 

— He never becomes a sympathetic character — the PTSD victim who finally recovers from his terrible childhood and is able to accept and return the love of a wife or family, thus learning to truly protect the ones he loves.

 

— He never becomes a villain — like I said before, all of his actions are either given a pass by those slighted (Sakura/Karin/Naruto/Kakashi), or are excusable or forgivable. Kishimoto always bails him out at the last moment.

 

— He never realizes his power back in the village — We never see his return to the village. We never see if people see him as a returned prodigal son or a full-on criminal. (But we know from Kakashi he's been given a pass there as well.) But he never gives Naruto a run for the Kage seat. And no one ever recognizes that he's probably more powerful than almost anyone around with Itachi's eye and Pain's eye. Instead this huge ninja asset is just allowed to leave the village to do his own secret stuff.

 

— He never realizes his power outside of the village (so far) — Again, Sasuke is now crazy powerful. He could be a monk-type, forced to wander because he is so powerful that people want him and to stay in a village is to put others in danger. But no. He's never shown to give a crap about the village or his family. So what is he doing? Milling around and acting like Jiraiya, just waiting for stuff to happen so he can show up and flip his hair. His super skills are wasted out there. He doesn't have A or S-level targets. He isn't even given super-secret missions. He's just left on his own. And so far in the story, nothing has been made of his skills. He hasn't been targeted or shown that they've helped him in any real way. 

 

All of these were paths that Sasuke's character could have taken. But, just like Naruto and Sakura, there are big holes in the development. The story ended with all of the build up and background going nowhere. But no, I don't see Sasuke as a villain either. He's the anti-hero to Naruto's hero. But none of the characters' stated goals were ever met (except Hinata's). So it's hard to look back at Sasuke's development and see where he changed. The story just ended for him too, and none of his reasoning makes any more sense than why Sakura gave up being a ninja/top medic to be a housewife and Naruto gave her up for Hinata.

[rocci]

@tricksie
I agree with you, because that's how I always say about sasuke. He's not a villain because kishi never allowed it to happen.

Tbf sakura dream is to married sasuke and never to become top ninja. Eventhought imo in chapter 3, it show that naruto is sakura true love and not sasuke. Since her dream prince actually is naruto. Hence why her dream kind of shatter when she married him.

[sushi.]

https://m.youtube.co...eature=youtu.be

From 5:00 and on reminded me a lot of the Sakura hate and how I used to defend her in the past. Then I see Sakura hate now and I just can't defend her... And how canon!Sakura is not the one that I like, but rather her potential, what she could've been in the hands of a skilled mangaka, and fandom's ideas of her.

I think even Hinata can be put into this. People don't like that she's selfish and I'm with you on that, but by giving her such a kitten personality Kishi made the responsibility to write her out of that loop and into an independent person. Early on I sort of expected her to have a Forest of Death-ish wakeup call like Sakura had, because like Hinata, she also started out as a bratty little kid and it made her even better because in a way she climbed higher than anyone else.

Edited by sushi., 18 April 2017 - 07:39 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I think Sasuke (like Sakura and Naruto) suffers from poor development. He's definitely an anti-hero. He walks a dark path not of his own making, with even his worst behaviors able to be excused or forgiven somehow. (Unlike Danzo, who could have been the darker anti-hero to Sarutobi's lighter path, because Danzo is truly villain in that he is motivated by power disguised as the greater good.) 

 

There was a time that Sasuke came back and wanted to be ruler of Konoha and challenge Naruto for the Kage seat. If that had happened, like I thought it might (giving Team 7 one last final arc where they were focused on tension directly between their group), then Sasuke might have turned into a villain. But that plot thread just got dropped, not resolved. If I remember it's never clearly stated why he gave up on that goal. And Sasuke instead became a wandering monk type, working for the greater good in his own way. Anti-hero.

 

Anyway, Sasuke was never fully developed into any of the avenues his character might have taken:

 

— He never becomes a sympathetic character — the PTSD victim who finally recovers from his terrible childhood and is able to accept and return the love of a wife or family, thus learning to truly protect the ones he loves.

 

— He never becomes a villain — like I said before, all of his actions are either given a pass by those slighted (Sakura/Karin/Naruto/Kakashi), or are excusable or forgivable. Kishimoto always bails him out at the last moment.

 

— He never realizes his power back in the village — We never see his return to the village. We never see if people see him as a returned prodigal son or a full-on criminal. (But we know from Kakashi he's been given a pass there as well.) But he never gives Naruto a run for the Kage seat. And no one ever recognizes that he's probably more powerful than almost anyone around with Itachi's eye and Pain's eye. Instead this huge ninja asset is just allowed to leave the village to do his own secret stuff.

 

— He never realizes his power outside of the village (so far) — Again, Sasuke is now crazy powerful. He could be a monk-type, forced to wander because he is so powerful that people want him and to stay in a village is to put others in danger. But no. He's never shown to give a crap about the village or his family. So what is he doing? Milling around and acting like Jiraiya, just waiting for stuff to happen so he can show up and flip his hair. His super skills are wasted out there. He doesn't have A or S-level targets. He isn't even given super-secret missions. He's just left on his own. And so far in the story, nothing has been made of his skills. He hasn't been targeted or shown that they've helped him in any real way. 

 

All of these were paths that Sasuke's character could have taken. But, just like Naruto and Sakura, there are big holes in the development. The story ended with all of the build up and background going nowhere. But no, I don't see Sasuke as a villain either. He's the anti-hero to Naruto's hero. But none of the characters' stated goals were ever met (except Hinata's). So it's hard to look back at Sasuke's development and see where he changed. The story just ended for him too, and none of his reasoning makes any more sense than why Sakura gave up being a ninja/top medic to be a housewife and Naruto gave her up for Hinata.

And such logical thinking shows that Kishimoto didn't really have anything, much less pairings, planned. He just did things whenever they were most convenient, regardless of how little sense they made regarding anything else in the story. This became really evidence during the War Arc when Sasuke, after taking off the bandages and revealing he now had the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, was clearly made to look like he had gone mad with power and with his "testing" it on White Zetsu to suddenly being more "chill" after a single talk with Itachi and the previous Hokages.

[VanitasDS76491]

Man this pic of Hanami looks precious, I mean I've seen several pics, but this one I like: 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And also this while I'm at it:
 

Hanami will always be percious unlike a certain other useless daughter of naruto.
That's a great pic of naruto and Sakura.

[Bail o' Lies]

I think Sasuke (like Sakura and Naruto) suffers from poor development. He's definitely an anti-hero. He walks a dark path not of his own making, with even his worst behaviors able to be excused or forgiven somehow. (Unlike Danzo, who could have been the darker anti-hero to Sarutobi's lighter path, because Danzo is truly villain in that he is motivated by power disguised as the greater good.) 

 

There was a time that Sasuke came back and wanted to be ruler of Konoha and challenge Naruto for the Kage seat. If that had happened, like I thought it might (giving Team 7 one last final arc where they were focused on tension directly between their group), then Sasuke might have turned into a villain. But that plot thread just got dropped, not resolved. If I remember it's never clearly stated why he gave up on that goal. And Sasuke instead became a wandering monk type, working for the greater good in his own way. Anti-hero.

 

Anyway, Sasuke was never fully developed into any of the avenues his character might have taken:

 

— He never becomes a sympathetic character — the PTSD victim who finally recovers from his terrible childhood and is able to accept and return the love of a wife or family, thus learning to truly protect the ones he loves.

 

— He never becomes a villain — like I said before, all of his actions are either given a pass by those slighted (Sakura/Karin/Naruto/Kakashi), or are excusable or forgivable. Kishimoto always bails him out at the last moment.

 

— He never realizes his power back in the village — We never see his return to the village. We never see if people see him as a returned prodigal son or a full-on criminal. (But we know from Kakashi he's been given a pass there as well.) But he never gives Naruto a run for the Kage seat. And no one ever recognizes that he's probably more powerful than almost anyone around with Itachi's eye and Pain's eye. Instead this huge ninja asset is just allowed to leave the village to do his own secret stuff.

 

— He never realizes his power outside of the village (so far) — Again, Sasuke is now crazy powerful. He could be a monk-type, forced to wander because he is so powerful that people want him and to stay in a village is to put others in danger. But no. He's never shown to give a crap about the village or his family. So what is he doing? Milling around and acting like Jiraiya, just waiting for stuff to happen so he can show up and flip his hair. His super skills are wasted out there. He doesn't have A or S-level targets. He isn't even given super-secret missions. He's just left on his own. And so far in the story, nothing has been made of his skills. He hasn't been targeted or shown that they've helped him in any real way. 

 

All of these were paths that Sasuke's character could have taken. But, just like Naruto and Sakura, there are big holes in the development. The story ended with all of the build up and background going nowhere. But no, I don't see Sasuke as a villain either. He's the anti-hero to Naruto's hero. But none of the characters' stated goals were ever met (except Hinata's). So it's hard to look back at Sasuke's development and see where he changed. The story just ended for him too, and none of his reasoning makes any more sense than why Sakura gave up being a ninja/top medic to be a housewife and Naruto gave her up for Hinata.

Anti-Hero maybe what Kishimoto wanted us to see Sasuke as but its inaccurate. Like I said he is an antagonist that slips into villainy for awhile after Itachi's death is far more accurate of Sasuke.

 

All those "avenues" his character could have and in some cases can take is because kishimoto wasn't interested in them, and his natural path was abandon leading to those some of those "avenues". Sasuke after killing Itach should have realized the pointless of revenge had some introspection and returned to the village on his own. But that clashed with what Kishimoto wanted a final battle between Sasuke and Naruto no matter what. So his character arc had to be drop so he could remain someone Nartuo needed to reform with a final battle, even if it he has to make Sasuke a inconsistant character for it to happen.

 

-Him getting over his PTSD and living a normal life was dropped first since it was the original path, and never picked up again. .

 

-He never fully becomes a villain because kishimoto never wanted him to be something Naruto couldn't redeem. So he had to drift into villainy to convince us he needed to be redeem but always had to pull back before he became "too evil."

 

-He didn't return to the village because kishimoto burnt that bridge to make sure he stayed antagonistic. Then never repaired it in anyway leaving Sasuke on that wanderers path despite having a wife and daughter in the village.

 

-Actually him becoming Jiraya-like wanderer that aids the village for the shadow is the closest path to what Kishimoto seemed to be going for yet is never fully realized. Since he mainly seem to just wander around trying to find more about Kaguya, and because the wandering drifter seemed cool. At least cool enough that Bolt seems to want that path.

 

@tricksie
I agree with you, because that's how I always say about sasuke. He's not a villain because kishi never allowed it to happen.

Tbf sakura dream is to married sasuke and never to become top ninja. Eventhought imo in chapter 3, it show that naruto is sakura true love and not sasuke. Since her dream prince actually is naruto. Hence why her dream kind of shatter when she married him.

Sakura's dream was to marry the boy that told her her forehead was cute, but she did make it her goal to become a strong ninja. So she could stand side by side with both Naruto and Sasuke.

 

And such logical thinking shows that Kishimoto didn't really have anything, much less pairings, planned. He just did things whenever they were most convenient, regardless of how little sense they made regarding anything else in the story. This became really evidence during the War Arc when Sasuke, after taking off the bandages and revealing he now had the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, was clearly made to look like he had gone mad with power and with his "testing" it on White Zetsu to suddenly being more "chill" after a single talk with Itachi and the previous Hokages.

Looking back it quite obvious even when working on Part 2 he only had an outline of what he wanted to do. They would fight and defeat the akatsuki, Sasuke would kill Itachi, Sasuke and Naruto would have a final battle which Naruto would win with Sasuke coming back to the village. Naruto would become hokage, and the manga would end with Naruto giving his son a speech after his son is caught painting on the monument. He only care about doing those points in the story and could be influenced on anything else. Whether that be him writing it, what his editors SP or executive all tell him what to do, what he thinks the fans want, and so on.

 

Sasuke at the time was in his villain stage and was willingly helping to end the world as long as he got to destroy the village and kill Naruto. But kishimoto realized that very few would want Sasuke to be redeem after he help almost end the world. So he had Itachi come back to reset his character into helping out in fighting the ten tailed, then after that have final battle with Naruto with even some of the character realizing that what he is doing.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 19 April 2017 - 01:44 AM.

[Legend054]

I think Sasuke (like Sakura and Naruto) suffers from poor development. He's definitely an anti-hero. He walks a dark path not of his own making, with even his worst behaviors able to be excused or forgiven somehow. (Unlike Danzo, who could have been the darker anti-hero to Sarutobi's lighter path, because Danzo is truly villain in that he is motivated by power disguised as the greater good.) 

 

There was a time that Sasuke came back and wanted to be ruler of Konoha and challenge Naruto for the Kage seat. If that had happened, like I thought it might (giving Team 7 one last final arc where they were focused on tension directly between their group), then Sasuke might have turned into a villain. But that plot thread just got dropped, not resolved. If I remember it's never clearly stated why he gave up on that goal. And Sasuke instead became a wandering monk type, working for the greater good in his own way. Anti-hero.

 

Anyway, Sasuke was never fully developed into any of the avenues his character might have taken:

 

— He never becomes a sympathetic character — the PTSD victim who finally recovers from his terrible childhood and is able to accept and return the love of a wife or family, thus learning to truly protect the ones he loves.

 

— He never becomes a villain — like I said before, all of his actions are either given a pass by those slighted (Sakura/Karin/Naruto/Kakashi), or are excusable or forgivable. Kishimoto always bails him out at the last moment.

 

— He never realizes his power back in the village — We never see his return to the village. We never see if people see him as a returned prodigal son or a full-on criminal. (But we know from Kakashi he's been given a pass there as well.) But he never gives Naruto a run for the Kage seat. And no one ever recognizes that he's probably more powerful than almost anyone around with Itachi's eye and Pain's eye. Instead this huge ninja asset is just allowed to leave the village to do his own secret stuff.

 

— He never realizes his power outside of the village (so far) — Again, Sasuke is now crazy powerful. He could be a monk-type, forced to wander because he is so powerful that people want him and to stay in a village is to put others in danger. But no. He's never shown to give a crap about the village or his family. So what is he doing? Milling around and acting like Jiraiya, just waiting for stuff to happen so he can show up and flip his hair. His super skills are wasted out there. He doesn't have A or S-level targets. He isn't even given super-secret missions. He's just left on his own. And so far in the story, nothing has been made of his skills. He hasn't been targeted or shown that they've helped him in any real way. 

 

All of these were paths that Sasuke's character could have taken. But, just like Naruto and Sakura, there are big holes in the development. The story ended with all of the build up and background going nowhere. But no, I don't see Sasuke as a villain either. He's the anti-hero to Naruto's hero. But none of the characters' stated goals were ever met (except Hinata's). So it's hard to look back at Sasuke's development and see where he changed. The story just ended for him too, and none of his reasoning makes any more sense than why Sakura gave up being a ninja/top medic to be a housewife and Naruto gave her up for Hinata.

 

Yeah. They don't know what to do with Sasuke now basically. He was bound to become a villain. There was a build up in Five Kage Summit but it's a shonen manga so it always has to have a happy ending. They didn't want to kill one of their main characters and especially since Sasuke is apparently Kishi's favorite character. If he became the villain I'm sure their final battle would be more impactful. Naruto would have no choice but to kill his best friend. It would be epic if Sasuke actually challenged  Naruto for the Kage seat, but he's not the Sasuke we know anymore.

 

All of what you said is true.

[Shadow1275]

I think Sasuke (like Sakura and Naruto) suffers from poor development. He's definitely an anti-hero. He walks a dark path not of his own making, with even his worst behaviors able to be excused or forgiven somehow. (Unlike Danzo, who could have been the darker anti-hero to Sarutobi's lighter path, because Danzo is truly villain in that he is motivated by power disguised as the greater good.) 

 

There was a time that Sasuke came back and wanted to be ruler of Konoha and challenge Naruto for the Kage seat. If that had happened, like I thought it might (giving Team 7 one last final arc where they were focused on tension directly between their group), then Sasuke might have turned into a villain. But that plot thread just got dropped, not resolved. If I remember it's never clearly stated why he gave up on that goal. And Sasuke instead became a wandering monk type, working for the greater good in his own way. Anti-hero.

 

Anyway, Sasuke was never fully developed into any of the avenues his character might have taken:

 

— He never becomes a sympathetic character — the PTSD victim who finally recovers from his terrible childhood and is able to accept and return the love of a wife or family, thus learning to truly protect the ones he loves.

 

— He never becomes a villain — like I said before, all of his actions are either given a pass by those slighted (Sakura/Karin/Naruto/Kakashi), or are excusable or forgivable. Kishimoto always bails him out at the last moment.

 

— He never realizes his power back in the village — We never see his return to the village. We never see if people see him as a returned prodigal son or a full-on criminal. (But we know from Kakashi he's been given a pass there as well.) But he never gives Naruto a run for the Kage seat. And no one ever recognizes that he's probably more powerful than almost anyone around with Itachi's eye and Pain's eye. Instead this huge ninja asset is just allowed to leave the village to do his own secret stuff.

 

— He never realizes his power outside of the village (so far) — Again, Sasuke is now crazy powerful. He could be a monk-type, forced to wander because he is so powerful that people want him and to stay in a village is to put others in danger. But no. He's never shown to give a crap about the village or his family. So what is he doing? Milling around and acting like Jiraiya, just waiting for stuff to happen so he can show up and flip his hair. His super skills are wasted out there. He doesn't have A or S-level targets. He isn't even given super-secret missions. He's just left on his own. And so far in the story, nothing has been made of his skills. He hasn't been targeted or shown that they've helped him in any real way. 

 

All of these were paths that Sasuke's character could have taken. But, just like Naruto and Sakura, there are big holes in the development. The story ended with all of the build up and background going nowhere. But no, I don't see Sasuke as a villain either. He's the anti-hero to Naruto's hero. But none of the characters' stated goals were ever met (except Hinata's). So it's hard to look back at Sasuke's development and see where he changed. The story just ended for him too, and none of his reasoning makes any more sense than why Sakura gave up being a ninja/top medic to be a housewife and Naruto gave her up for Hinata.

I agree with all points except for the Bolded

 

 

Just because he is given a pass on his actions doesn't mean he is not a villain.

 

Sasuke did not become a villain when he joined Orochimaru, he became an anti-hero. In part 1 Sasuke is actually fairly heroic; he sacrifices his lunch for Naruto, he sacrifices his life to save Naruto from Haku, he calls Naruto and Sakura his comrades and tells Naruto to save Sakura and run etc. Even when he joins Orochimaru he's only using him to gain revenge on Itachi for killing his clan, which is still moral to a degree. He even refuses to murder Naruto in cold blood when he has the chance at the VOTE.

 

But when he stabs Karin at the LOI he does cross the threshold of Villainy. At that point he loses what defenses he had before. And on top of that he also attacked B to help a terrorist organization. Then much much later he tells Naruto that his plan to FORCE every single Shinobi village to unite under him as their supreme leader. Essentially fixing the system by stifling the freedom of everyone in the universe whether they like it or not. That is not a Heroic thing to do, that is a villainous thing to do. It's essentially World Domination.

 

This is why Naruto has to stop him in the end because he is the Hero. 

 

All stupid Kishimoto plot decisions aside of course. In reality Sasuke is right, the Shinobi System is plain garbage and Naruto offers no real solution except to endure. But his methods are villainous.

[ultranx]

Well that's kittening stupid even since both rukia and ryuko could kick hinata's ass with no problem.

heck videl is better than hinata too. would utterly destroy her in a fight.....or baby pan xD

[BlueStarSaber]

I've said this before (though not sure here) but if the Itachi twist was to be a thing Itachi shouldn't of been portrayed as a saint and should of been a kinslayer who betrayed his clan for power and later the leaf council for his own agenda. When sasuke hears this he goes search for proof ether by chasing Kabuto or root agents, once he get proof he vows revaltion and to destroy the leaf only to be stopped by Naruto and co before he does something truly unredeemable then works with Naruto to stop both tobi and danzo.

[VanitasDS76491]

heck videl is better than hinata too. would utterly destroy her in a fight.....or baby pan xD

Agreed, hell I'd like to see this new female broly fight hinata especially when she's huge.
Videl would kick her ass and baby pan would to given how she beat future trunks during the Goku black arc.

[Legend054]

But when he stabs Karin at the LOI he does cross the threshold of Villainy. At that point he loses what defenses he had before. And on top of that he also attacked B to help a terrorist organization. Then much much later he tells Naruto that his plan to FORCE every single Shinobi village to unite under him as their supreme leader. Essentially fixing the system by stifling the freedom of everyone in the universe whether they like it or not. That is not a Heroic thing to do, that is a villainous thing to do. It's essentially World Domination.

 

I can consider Sasuke a villain during the Five Kage Summit, but he later changed to being a good guy.

How can you consider him a villain when he just helped Naruto saved the world from Madara and Kaguya, the real villains who legitimately tried to destroy the world?

Sasuke had every chance to betray and kill his allies during the War arc but he didn't. He never really gave me the vibe that he was a villain. He was constantly being manipulated by the likes of Tobi and Orochimaru. He didn't know what to think for himself. Naruto was the only one who never saw Sasuke as an enemy, he knew there was still good in Sasuke's heart that's why he never resorted to killing him. While everyone else pretty much gave up hope on Sasuke. It's a load of kitten if you ask me. They were making it look like Sasuke was a complex character to make him

interesting when he's really not. He was a messed up character and failed to reach his full potential due to bad writing. There's too many contradictions and inconsintencies in the manga. So at the of the day. it's up to you how you interpreted it. 

[Bail o' Lies]

Is this week Golden Week in Japan?