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Liking Hinata and hating Sakura


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#1 DrK

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:59 AM

These two things are closely related. A lot of people who liked Hinata were not particular fans of that character archetype, they just hated something about Sakura. A lot of people who hated Sakura didn't overly care about how she treated Naruto or Sasuke, they just hated that Naruto paid attention to her instead of the infinitely more worth his time Hinata.

 

It's well understood that the ending was likely made to cater to what Kishi or people around him thought the fans would want. Many of those fans were not self-aware in the sense that they understood exactly why they like or dislike a character or what would have needed to be done to make them change their views.

 

I'm going to talk about me for a sec. You see, I liked Hinata. I did not like Sakura. When I read the ending and saw that Naruto had ended up with Hinata, I thought, "Oh, he ended up with Hinata. That's... great." This lukewarm reaction that was elicited from me was likely much less positive than the reaction that NS fans would have had if the ending had actually been what it was supposed to be. Still, I thought it was the best result I could have hoped for at the time. Why did I like Hinata? Well, she liked Naruto. That's really the only reason that I can remember.

 

When I saw that Sakura ended up with Sasuke, I thought, "Yeah, she's pathetic as expected." I didn't really find any particular satisfaction or dissatisfaction with her fate. But I'm posting this on this forum now. So let's say that back in 2014 he had instead written the intended ending instead of the garbage he did write. Isn't it entirely possible... make that extremely likely, that I would have liked that ending a lot more? Despite my preconceived opinions about the characters? The answer is yes.

 

Why didn't I like Sakura? Well...

 

Sakura was mean to Naruto to start with. She gets better, but her preference for Sasuke over Naruto does not change throughout Part 1. And Part 1 isn't short. Naruto is the protagonist, so people want to see him succeed. We don't like people to be down on him or to put others before him if he's more deserving. This puts Sakura in a bad light.  It is quite frustrating to see Sakura continue to favor Sasuke when he doesn't really care about her. Her changes when we get to Part 2 are good, but it's not sufficient to throw Sakura immediately into a good light for a lot of people. Keep in mind that the anime screwed over Sakura infinitely more.

 

For the way that Sakura's character developed, Hinata is her absolute worst enemy. Hinata loves Naruto unconditionally. Hinata doesn't just pick Naruto over Sasuke, Sasuke means nothing to her while Naruto means everything. This is something that people who like Naruto are going to like. And he's the protagonist, so this is a lot of people. So Hinata looks good to start with. And she continues looking good throughout, because we never get any sign that things with Sakura have truly changed.

 

So Naruto doesn't notice Hinata and this is frustrating. You want him to notice her and move on from that mean kitten Sakura. But he never does, and we get to the point where we need him to romance her after the damn ending. In the meantime, whenever something good happens for NS, the presence of NH will cause one to overlook the significance of it. Either that or Naruto or Sakura sabotage the moment themselves somehow. It's difficult for people to become converted, especially since Kishimoto was not willing to put his foot down for Sakura. He was always holding out in case he needed to destroy her for the sake of a NH ending. Everyone is still waiting for NH moments that will justify their preference, and he's not giving us any reason to stop waiting.

 

Sakura confesses to Naruto? Well, Hinata already confessed to him. And she did so in an incredibly dramatic moment and her confession wasn't ruined by a ridiculous reaction from Naruto. Hinata wins that exchange with ease again. By now the fate of the series is already sealed.  And the only way to change people's minds now is if Sakura does something to sink SS from her end, like reject Sasuke or kiss Naruto. And he can't make that happen because he needs to keep pairing wars going and also because he might need to do SS in the end to "please" fans. Which is what he did. Kishimoto was willing to be swayed for whatever reason and he ultimately was swayed by people who felt a certain way.

 

Yes, I realize she actually did kiss him. It didn't help, did it?

 

Hinata's behavior during the war was pathetic and the NaruHina moments were really bad. The least charming NS moment was better than all of them put together. But people don't even care at this point. They aren't deciding anymore. Their horse is already Hinata. Sakura could only have saved herself by doing something that makes SS entirely impossible. And we know now that this was never going to happen. So, Sakura is completely destroyed at the end. Her life is ruined, status as heroine destroyed, setting a disgusting example for any young kids that happen to be reading a manga which is aimed at them. But that's another story. I wasn't happy to see SS back then. I would have preferred Sakura do something good, despite the fact that I wanted NH. But no, she gets kitten on completely.

 

Hinata wins. I feel nothing from this. A year and a half later, I realize that I could have felt something. All it would have taken was for me to not get the pairing that I preferred. To feel something, I needed to lose.

 

But I won.

 

It would be one thing if it was actually satisfying. In the end it was for nothing. I can't root for Hinata anymore because she already won. The disappointment is palpable.  This is when things become frustrating. Because I didn't even understand why I wanted Hinata to win anymore. What was it all for?

 

I watch The Last which is a film that tells me that the characters in the manga are actually horrible human beings. This does not help the situation any and I just wasted 2 hours.

 

So I eventually read the manga again. And I realize I really didn't win.

 

I can't even narrow it down to one moment from NS. I don't think it was any of them. I think it was simply the realization that Sakura just wasn't that bad. I was set up to dislike her because of Part 1 and Hinata was distracting. All that needed to happen was for Sakura to get over the infatuation with Sasuke. Instead, she made it clear that she never did. Calling that correctly was also unsatisfying.

 

In the end, everyone loses. 


Edited by DrK, 23 November 2017 - 01:03 PM.


#2 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:28 PM

Ive had people point blank say they hated Sakura because they hate the color pink. Or because she "didn't do anything." When you point out Hinata didn't do anything either it's usually ignored.

The fact of the matter is it's easy to be liked when you are barely featured and thus rarely shown messing up, or showing your faults.


Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 23 November 2017 - 05:22 PM.

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#3 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

Ive had people point blank say they hated Sakura because thry hatee the color pink. Or because she "didn't do anything." When you point out Hinata didn't do anything either it's usually ignored.
The fact of the matter is it's easy to be liked when you are barely featured and thus rarely shown messing up, or showing your faults.


And when all you got for you are moe points, which is also likely why people like Hinata but hate Sakura.

#4 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 05:01 PM

I've also had people say they hated Sakura but Tsunade was their fave :zaru:

Its illogical. 

Especially when you point out they are almost the same exact character minus boobs and unhealthy love obsession. (but honestly you could tell Kishi was ITCHING for oro/tsu/Jir triangle.) 


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#5 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 05:32 PM

Oh I'm sorry let me correct myself, "Hinata did NEXT to nothing."  Better? Good.


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#6 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 07:46 PM

Is trying to commit suicide selfishly helpful? :zaru: Is barely appearing in a series that ran for years with the only real input you ever have is staring moon eyed at a guy who vaguely knows you exist and saying "Naruto-kun." with stuttering and blushing interspersed helpful to moving plot? Sounds like next to nothing to me.
 


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#7 Nate River

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:02 PM

The issue with the OP is that it assumes the fallacy that the ending was catered to something, when we have word of mouth from the author stating otherwise. The second issue is that it assumes the ending has veered off form what it was "supposed to be", but the ending is what it was supposed to be. There was no swaying. There is no proof of this, no matter how many times it is stated. The author said it was intended, the manga's flow shows it was intended. If you state otherwise, you should realize you are not being truthful. 
 
Another issue is the statement that Naruto "never notices" Hinata, but that isn't true either. The Proud Failure Moment is a clear point of this, and so is 614/615. 
 
I never get this "winning" and "losing" mentality. It's a piece of fiction. There is no "winning" or "losing" persay, there's more being right in what you predicted or not. We're weaving a story, not a competition.
 
The Last doesn't make charactes look horrible, simply, Naruto was immature when he was twelve years old. The Last is telling you the correct interpretation of earlier events. Naruto's competitive reasons in no way makes him a bad person, it makes him an immature boy at twelve. He's not twelve anymore.
 
But mostly , I don't really agree with the OP, in the places that its subjective and the OP isn't flat out wrong on things. There are plenty who like both Sakura and Hinata. There are some who like one or the other.


I remember part 1 Naruto, especially late stage Part 1. That Naruto, particularly when it came to Sakura, came across as mature and as someone willing to set his own desires aside at the expense of his own happiness. It really hard to reconcile your interpretation of what the Last does with Naruto's reactions and behavior during that time frame. This probably more than any other reason, is why I find the Last's description of his feelings so intolerable. That Naruto comes across as emotionally mature and seems to understand the nature and depths of Sakura's devotion to Sasuke. Whether you want to characterize it as love, crush, friendship, it doesn't matter. Whether it seen as SS or NS or whatever, likewise doesn't matter.

 

I don't see how it can be reconciled with the Last without diminishing what Naruto's character does and feels during this portion of the manga. What is it he sees her if he has a stunted view of concepts such as love?   The end of Part 1 fit with the fake confession: i.e. why he would legitimately pass on her "confession" because he knows, from what he witness, her dedication to Sasuke. All the Last had to do was have him move on like he seemed to be move toward at the end of Part 1. That's it. It had been two years, she still like Sasuke, he understands that. We get a emotionally mature individual acting consistently as he did previously.

 

If he doesn't understand love or his view of it is as immature (like DB Goku level immature), then what does he know? How could he be so sure that Sakura is truly in love with him if he concept of it is so stunted? The Last doesn't do to Naruto's character what the War arc does, but it hurts it. I think calling it inconsistent is the nice version of what they did. 

 

As far as winning and losing: It's the emotion attachment combined with how the various fandoms acted toward each other and felt about one another. All the pairings fandoms saw it this way. We banned more than 30 accounts the day the ending dropped and almost all of them had some variation of NHwins or some similar gloating name. The couple that didn't and managed to get through just trolled. People who were members at the time sure recall the Wall of Anal Devastation which was a collection of screen caps from this site of people reacting to the ending? For many people it was as much about showing up users they didn't like as it was enjoying their pairing.

 

Hinata isn't Moe.


Sure, she is. See, it's a mirror image. I'm not being serious in the slightest....

 

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#8 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:13 PM

@ True Nate I mean I have been getting this on my fanfiction stories I mean I'd like to think that we wouldn't have done this if NS became canon.



#9 DrK

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:15 PM

I don't see how it can be reconciled with the Last without diminishing what Naruto's character does and feels during this portion of the manga. What is it he sees her if he has a stunted view of concepts such as love?   The end of Part 1 fit with the fake confession: i.e. why he would legitimately pass on her "confession" because he knows, from what he witness, her dedication to Sasuke. All the Last had to do was have him move on like he seemed to be move toward at the end of Part 1. That's it. It had been two years, she still like Sasuke, he understands that. We get a emotionally mature individual acting consistently as he did previously.

I don't see why it was necessary for Hinata to be viewed as the first love regardless of how much sense it makes. If he never really cared about Sakura, why would he have done all that stuff?

 

Like, if you want Hinata to win Naruto, you want her to win the real Naruto, not whoever this rivalry guy is. It's a hollow victory. He isn't really even rejecting Sakura for her... He never had the option of being with Sakura, because she was only screwing around with him and her true love was Sasuke. So Hinata won by practically default. There's no satisfaction to be had.



#10 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:44 PM

I can say with certainty you would be finding me actively seeking out people to mock when their pairing fell through. I'm pretty sure we've all been there before excluding NS. 


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#11 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:29 PM

@DrK I used to like Hinata not as much as Sakura mind you, I think its silly when people say oh I hate Sakura cause she was mean to Sakura, one person I talked to hated her cause she was mean and I asked my friend so when you were 12 you were perfect got alone with everyone in your class and school then.

 

After that they knew they were in the wrong and started to like her, its something I have always hated about Sakura haters saying we hate her cause she was mean to Naruto, at 12 I mean I want to ask everyone on this site that will see this.

 

At 12 did you get alone with everyone in your class or school were you like Hinata who wanted to make friends with every last person you meet or were there some people that you just hated cause of some stupid reason?

 

I know I did fact is no 12 year old is perfect we need to remember that they are kids.



#12 DrK

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:32 PM

@DrK I used to like Hinata not as much as Sakura mind you, I think its silly when people say oh I hate Sakura cause she was mean to Sakura, one person I talked to hated her cause she was mean and I asked my friend so when you were 12 you were perfect got alone with everyone in your class and school then.

 

After that they knew they were in the wrong and started to like her, its something I have always hated about Sakura haters saying we hate her cause she was mean to Naruto, at 12 I mean I want to ask everyone on this site that will see this.

 

At 12 did you get alone with everyone in your class or school were you like Hinata who wanted to make friends with every last person you meet or were there some people that you just hated cause of some stupid reason?

 

I know I did fact is no 12 year old is perfect we need to remember that they are kids.

It's not that I hated her, I just was annoyed by her to start with and then nothing ever happened to change that opinion. The time I liked Sakura the most as the series went on was probably the Sasori fight. I am not sure why I was unmoved by her interactions with Naruto. It's a mystery.

 

It's just that I had this preconceived opinion of her, which should have been totally wrong but it ended up being completely right. And <redacted> says I didn't properly understand the series.


Edited by DrK, 23 November 2017 - 10:33 PM.


#13 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:47 PM

It's not that I hated her, I just was annoyed by her to start with and then nothing ever happened to change that opinion. The time I liked Sakura the most as the series went on was probably the Sasori fight. I am not sure why I was unmoved by her interactions with Naruto. It's a mystery.

 

It's just that I had this preconceived opinion of her, which should have been totally wrong but it ended up being completely right. And <redacted> says I didn't properly understand the series.

Yeah, I have grown to hate Hinata and Sasuke a lot,

 

But what are your thoughts on Sasuke?

 

I still blame Kishi for Sakura and his sexist views on women as well, I would go on but its all been said on why Sakura didn't move on by Kishi.

 

Plus like you said at the start you have re read it and seen what happened and the growth as well.



#14 DrK

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:51 PM

Yeah, I have grown to hate Hinata and Sasuke a lot,

 

But what are your thoughts on Sasuke?

I liked Sasuke in part 1. His fighting style was so cool then. I grew to dislike him because of the way Naruto acted on account of him. He should have actually fought him properly the first time.

 

Then the Kage Summit thing was so pathetic. I think at that point i hated Sasuke not because of Sasuke, but because how he made everyone else act and how Sasuke was implicitly benefitting from their delusional behavior. This includes Sakura, obviously.



#15 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:56 PM

I remember part 1 Naruto, especially late stage Part 1. That Naruto, particularly when it came to Sakura, came across as mature and as someone willing to set his own desires aside at the expense of his own happiness. It really hard to reconcile your interpretation of what the Last does with Naruto's reactions and behavior during that time frame. This probably more than any other reason, is why I find the Last's description of his feelings so intolerable. That Naruto comes across as emotionally mature and seems to understand the nature and depths of Sakura's devotion to Sasuke. Whether you want to characterize it as love, crush, friendship, it doesn't matter. Whether it seen as SS or NS or whatever, likewise doesn't matter.

 

I don't see how it can be reconciled with the Last without diminishing what Naruto's character does and feels during this portion of the manga. What is it he sees her if he has a stunted view of concepts such as love?   The end of Part 1 fit with the fake confession: i.e. why he would legitimately pass on her "confession" because he knows, from what he witness, her dedication to Sasuke. All the Last had to do was have him move on like he seemed to be move toward at the end of Part 1. That's it. It had been two years, she still like Sasuke, he understands that. We get a emotionally mature individual acting consistently as he did previously.

 

If he doesn't understand love or his view of it is as immature (like DB Goku level immature), then what does he know? How could he be so sure that Sakura is truly in love with him if he concept of it is so stunted? The Last doesn't do to Naruto's character what the War arc does, but it hurts it. I think calling it inconsistent is the nice version of what they did. 

 

As far as winning and losing: It's the emotion attachment combined with how the various fandoms acted toward each other and felt about one another. All the pairings fandoms saw it this way. We banned more than 30 accounts the day the ending dropped and almost all of them had some variation of NHwins or some similar gloating name. The couple that didn't and managed to get through just trolled. People who were members at the time sure recall the Wall of Anal Devastation which was a collection of screen caps from this site of people reacting to the ending? For many people it was as much about showing up users they didn't like as it was enjoying their pairing.

 


Sure, she is. See, it's a mirror image. I'm not being serious in the slightest....

 

Moe-Howard-three-stooges-23436760-444-51

AND THAT, my friend, is the main effing problem of how they treat NS in the movie, so we are beign told initially that when it comes to Naruto's(age 12)  love for Sakura he acts extremely mature he doesn't care if Sakura ignored him/ or pushed him aside sometimes if she wanted to be with Sasuke because he loved her, and he wanted for her to be happy first and foremost, that's why he goes away when Sakura is hugging Sasuke, that's why he made the promise and told her HE knows what being in unrequited love is, it's also why when Sasuke is acting prickly towards Sakura that he interrupts him and get pissed at him like in the hospital or at the begining of the preliminaries.

Then it's shippuden Naruto, that altough he was still inmature and rash he still cared for Sakura a lot and was smitten by her new apeareance, until the LOI arc at least, when he apperntly was pretty much okay with Sasuke killing Sakura, (if age 12 Naruto had seen that, I have NO DOUBT he'd go 9 tails on his own ass and Sasuke's too)

Then we have the Naruto from The Last, that apperently was playing a rivalry game with Sasuke-boy all along, so that means he never loved Sakura, not only that, he never even KNEW what beign in love was like.

Then the Gaiden Naruto, that apperently lefts his best friend wife (who is also one of his closest friends) rot away in debt, not doing jack to help her, seriously?? So he never even cared for her, are they even friends? do they still hang out?

Something doesn't add up...
The real question about is that I want to ask EVERYBODY here is... which one IS the real Naruto??? Because there's at least 4 different personalites living in that head, or great and I mean GREAT character regression.


Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 23 November 2017 - 11:02 PM.

“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#16 DrK

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 11:01 PM

The real question about is that I want to ask EVERYBODY here is... which one IS the real Naruto??? Because there's at least 4 different personalites living in that head, or great and I mean GREAT character regression.

All of them and none of them. Around Sakura, probably the Shippuden Naruto who would allow Sasuke to get away with trying to kill her. Around Hinata, the lobotomized Last Naruto. Around Sasuke, the part 1 Naruto if he's good, but Shippuden Naruto again if he's bad.

 

If he's acting as Hokage, then it's a different Naruto entirely. Jaded and cynical Naruto with alcoholism.


Edited by DrK, 23 November 2017 - 11:02 PM.


#17 NarutoUzumaki01

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 01:24 AM

AND THAT, my friend, is the main effing problem of how they treat NS in the movie, so we are beign told initially that when it comes to Naruto's(age 12)  love for Sakura he acts extremely mature he doesn't care if Sakura ignored him/ or pushed him aside sometimes if she wanted to be with Sasuke because he loved her, and he wanted for her to be happy first and foremost, that's why he goes away when Sakura is hugging Sasuke, that's why he made the promise and told her HE knows what being in unrequited love is, it's also why when Sasuke is acting prickly towards Sakura that he interrupts him and get pissed at him like in the hospital or at the begining of the preliminaries.

Then it's shippuden Naruto, that altough he was still inmature and rash he still cared for Sakura a lot and was smitten by her new apeareance, until the LOI arc at least, when he apperntly was pretty much okay with Sasuke killing Sakura, (if age 12 Naruto had seen that, I have NO DOUBT he'd go 9 tails on his own ass and Sasuke's too)

Then we have the Naruto from The Last, that apperently was playing a rivalry game with Sasuke-boy all along, so that means he never loved Sakura, not only that, he never even KNEW what beign in love was like.

Then the Gaiden Naruto, that apperently lefts his best friend wife (who is also one of his closest friends) rot away in debt, not doing jack to help her, seriously?? So he never even cared for her, are they even friends? do they still hang out?

Something doesn't add up...
The real question about is that I want to ask EVERYBODY here is... which one IS the real Naruto??? Because there's at least 4 different personalites living in that head, or great and I mean GREAT character regression.

Whatever good things left in this franchise they died alltogether with Pain.



#18 DrK

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:43 PM

Looking at the story objectively, it becomes apparent that Sakura is the one people were supposed to root for over Hinata. Hinata is the daughter of a rich and powerful clan with a powerful bloodline. True she was treated badly by her father, but seriously, first world problems.

 

Sakura on the other hand doesn't really have anything. She was a civilian with no special skills. Yet she crafted her own legend with her blood. She became one of the most important ninjas coming from nothing at all. Yet Kishimoto kittens on all of this by making her the tool of a horrible man who came from a similar background as Hinata. One more way that the whole "Screw destiny!" message was ruined in part 2.

 

She won the heart of the hero. This was something that Hinata completely failed to do. She should have been allowed to keep it. She treated Naruto poorly in the past, but it was nothing so bad to deserve being disenfranchised like this. Are we really meant to believe that Sakura didn't want to be the one standing next to him when he became Hokage? All those wistful smiles? Her devotion to see his dream realized? No, she just wanted him to succeed even if Hinata would be hanging off of his arm when he did it.


Edited by DrK, 25 November 2017 - 12:24 AM.


#19 sushi.

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 11:16 PM

I feel sorry for those liking both.

Here we like Sakura, or at least did. Before the ending there was a line about what you could say about her. But there wasn't ever a sensory for Hinata or her fans and although I don't particularly like her some members act like she killed everyone and their mother. It didn't ruin my day if naruto fans disliked Sakura but it was frustrating to see people misunderstand her so much.

The main reason people choose who to support is because 1. they're polar opposites, and 2. they both like/love the main character so comparisons are unevitable. I like Sakura because she's exactly my type(and kishi's too frankly), while Hinata is not. I think Kishi initially didn't hate Hinata but grew tired of her fans so he made her say and do pathetic things and mock her character in interviews..I also didn't start the series hating her but with time it became difficult to like her.

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#20 DrK

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 11:22 PM

I feel sorry for those liking both.

Here we like Sakura, or at least did. Before the ending there was a line about what you could say about her. But there wasn't ever a sensory for Hinata or her fans and although I don't particularly like her some members act like she killed everyone and their mother. It didn't ruin my day if naruto fans disliked Sakura but it was frustrating to see people misunderstand her so much.

I honestly wasn't even being accurate when I said I didn't like her. It was more that I didn't trust her. I believed that the events of 699 would happen and they ultimately did. Well, I had pictured something even worse, like her trying to heal a still-psychotic Sasuke. But yeah, I called it correctly even though I didn't want to be right.

 

With Hinata, you know that she's gonna stand by Naruto no matter what and never hurt him. With Sakura you can be sure of that as long as Sasuke isn't involved, but Kishi never made an effort to show that she would pick Naruto over Sasuke. He sort of tried with the Kage Summit thing, but then Sai shot that in the foot with his "She going kill him because she love him, I am emotion capable robot" diatribe.


Edited by DrK, 24 November 2017 - 11:24 PM.





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