Bail o' Lies

 

Shame she can't say her opinion in regards to her character when it's the truth 

Tell me about it. Makes me wonder how deep down Kishimoto really feels.

Neither of them can officially talk about it. But, its likely if you were to talk to them on a personal level they would be able to tell what they actually think. From heresy I have heard over the years VAs' have willing offered their displeasure over the ending; if they are talking to fans with no cameras. 

But even in official interviews its not like Kishimoto has ever shown to particularly like the end pairings.

https://twitter.com/...919087635755009

https://natalie.mu/comic/pp/naruto

Junko had an interview...can't tell when but its making the rounds on twitter; which means its could have happened ten years ago for all I know.

She was only informed that Hinata would marry Naruto right before she got the script to the Last.

She thought Naruto would remain single, follow Jiraiya's footsteps warding around spreading a message of peace, and Sakura would become hokage. Also in the second fanbook sakura was considered the 5th favorite to become the next hokage. Naruto, Kakashi, Shikamaru, Iruka and then Sakura.

Yeah, like I said, head canon. I'm not ever re-reading Naruto again — just makes me angry —so I don't know the fine details as well anymore. But it always felt like if Kishi planned for Kakashi to be the one the 'raise' Naruto, then it makes more sense to have him with the connection.

 

I remember now that Obito was like the Naruto on the team. But seriously.... the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15, 18? And kills both of Minato and Kushina in such a horrific way trying to steal Naruto. It should never have been written that way that she identified with the kid who strung her up and ripped a hole in her stomach just a few years later. 

 

If Naruto were a movie, then young Obito would always be accompanied by 'he might be a villain' music!!

 

As for Kushina, it's actually pretty disappointing that she wasn't given a more active role. Like, why? She would have been the most powerful shinobi in Konoha right? And yet she can't even get her own team? But Naruto goes on to become Hokage with the same power? Kushina should have been a super bad ass in her own right, standing equal to Minato in terms of village power, and absolutely on her own in terms of lethal power. And it would have been interesting to see her interacting with other hosts. Like maybe there was some kind of peace among the jinchuriki before Obito shattered everything. 

 

And, though I'm not pro-Uchiha anything, I can understand why they would have been pissed that the only guy from an apparently dead clan (Namikaze) gets the Kage role, while this huge clan of powerful shinobis gets passed over. 

 

Didn't the Third want Orochimaru for the role, then Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya backed out only THEN it went to Minato? Which makes it kind of funny the Tsunade has to go back and pick up the pieces. The one who wasn't even asked to do the job!

 

edit: so much of this is rhetorical too. Just thinking back over the pre-Naruto era really reveals what a mess it was. And Kishi could have tied it all together with Naruto's story – forgave his rival, succeeded where his dad failed, abolished the shinobi system that created these problems, etc. etc. Instead he just made it worse by leaving Naruto like a grown-up kid, with nothing at all resolved.

The big problem again is Kishimoto did not really give much thought to the backstory unless he had to.

...I think I explain this when you asked about Naruto's clan but Kushina didn't really exist to Kishimoto till his wife asked about her. Then to please her he made kushina like her just as Sakura had become like her. Kakashi was already developed long before she was made, so she couldn't really effect his character. Kushina didn't seem to like the Kyuubi and wouldn't use its powers. So she wasn't as strong as Naruto. She fought most likely with her chakra chains and her clans sealing techniques.

Tsunade didn't want it. She wanted either her brother or her lover to become Hokage. The third wasn't going to force it on her. Which left Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and anyone else high ranking enough that wanted the position. Jiriaya had the Old Toad's prophecy to think about as well as his own aversions to the role so he supported his student taking the role instead.

 

The Uchiha's eyes are the swiss army knife of eyes, they have everything and can do everything.

Speaking of their eyes, can someone explain to me how does transferring ones Mangekyo eyes into another give you Eternal Mangekyo.

I mean my understanding of how it's suppose to work is that once you gain the Mangekyo you start losing your sight, the more you use its powers the quicker you lose your sight. And in order to regain your vision and more powers even, you have take the eyes of another Mangekyo sharingan user. That's what I remember.

 

Now maybe I'm the only one that thought about this, but how does transferring the eyes of someone who's losing their vision gets you back your vision? My understanding is that in order to get the Eternal, you need the eyes of someone who's got the Mangekyo, so someone who's losing or lost their sight. How does getting rid of your bad eyes and getting another's bad eyes gets you good vision?

 

I mean I know the whole transferring eyes thing was mainly so Itachi can scare Sasuke, at least in that point, but eventually it became the rule of how it works.

Story wise I'd guess that the intent of the transfer is to basically how do I put this. its combines the two eyes into one super eye effectively wiping out the weakness of the individual eyes. and opening access to the full power of the eyes

 

individually the sharingan while powerful cant handle the raw chakra needed to use all the special powers the human eye can only take so much power flowing through it without damaging it

 

so the double mangekyo reinforces the eye to superhuman levels which allows it to channel chakra more easily meaning there's no risk of blindness as the eye no longer deteriorates with each use

Cat gave the best excuse for how it possibly works; a single set is incomplete and damages the eyes causing blindness, combining two sets somehow stabilizes the eyes' power, and also restores the sight.

As for story-wise the problems with it was a mixture of kishimoto's habit of trying to keep powers and Ninjas balance, a reason for Itachi's actions, and his obsession of the Sasuke Naruto rivalry.

1) Kishimoto tends to prefer not to make broken characters or abilities. Characters tend to be specialist that are good at one form of fighting while poorer in other fields to justify teamwork...that never really happens. While powerful abilities tended to have draw backs.

From what I recall Dosu of the Sound was killed because Kishi thought he was too well balanced compared the rest of the genin during the chunin exam. Neji and Lee were close range fighter that lack range attacks. Gaara was a defensive stationary fighter, Shikamaru's shadow powers lack offensive abilities at the time, Kankuro relied on surprised and his puppets, Temari her fan, and Shino his bugs. Look at any fight Dosu was in, he was very versatile with his vibration gauntlet that made any fight lean in his favor unless there was a massive power discrepancy.

Team 7 should had in part one in theory had: Naruto was their close combat focus fighter that could scout, Sasuke a close-mid range ninjutsu fighter, Sakura a long range genjutsu support, and Kakashi an all-rounder with a problem with his stamina.

The Rasenshuriken couldn't be thrown at first for example of powerful abilities having limits and damages the users showing drawbacks. So, the same with the Mangekyo a fire that can't be put on, instant unbreakable illusions, and summons a giant invincible armor spirit all for the price of slowly losing your eye sight.

2) Originally, at least before he finally drew him, Itachi was suppose to be evil. An evil power hungry monster that murder his entire family to gain the power of the mangekyo sharingan and his reason for not Killing Sasuke was; he needed him to be his second set to gain even more power. Of course that was abandon for what both consumed both Kishimoto and the story all things to fuel that drawn out Naruto-Sasuke conflict.

3) As all should know Kishimoto was obsessed with the final battle being a final fight between Sasuke and Naruto and spent large portions in trying to justify it. One of his obsession was Sasuke and Naruto must be equal in power no matter how strong Naruto got. The thing due to being the container of Kurama once he gained access to his power Naruto would become instantly one of the strongest ninjas to ever exist. How was Sasuke suppose to match this? At first Kishimoto gave him the curse seal, but he clearly thought it would be stupid if it got passed the level 2 staged. So that left him with things like the Sage mode which Sasuke doesn't seem the type, or power up the sharingan till it could match the power of the nine-tailed fox. He went with the latter. So, the more powerful Naruto got the more broken the Mangekyo sharingan had to be to match him.

Obito was also so much like Kushina, who Naruto completely takes after too! 

 

I have a head canon that Kakashi was actually closer to Kushina than Minato, because they were both orphans in a way. Minato was a strong, focused leader that he wanted to be like, but that Kushina was the one who kept young Kakashi grounded and empathized with him. She was like a big sister to him. 

 

Also...*sigh*... way more tragic that way considering just how many people Kakashi has lost in his life! ugh! Kushina as a big sister would have been just another terrible loss....

 

Anyway, still my head canon! 

I don't think close is the right word more Kushina likely teased him a lot, which he hated because he wanted to be taken seriously, and only remembered it fondly after everyone was dead. But I see Kakashi spending more time with Minato both because he is his team's sensei & the closest thing he has to a father figure after his dad passed. We never really see Kakashi fondly think about Kushina when he watches Naruto. While Kakashi is always reading Jiraiya's books which Minato was stated in the databooks and in flashback to enjoy...though I think the Icha Icha series came out after his death. So, a very know habit of his came most likely from fondly remembering Minato reading the tale of the gusty ninja and trying to imitate it. Kushina's hobby seemed to be cooking (also pranking and talking with people) and we never see as scene of Kakashi making a meal for his team to try to bring them closer through that...though he could be a bit trollish; so maybe he picked up that from her. When Naruto does something it either he find it amusing it, annoying, he sees Minato, or as he said to Obito he saw a lot of him in Naruto.

Again, Kakashi never really thinks about Kushina which means he was at least more close to Minato and cared more about him than her. The people we first heard her from was in a conversation between Jiraiya and Tsunade. Jiraiya talking about how much Naruto is like Minato clearly fondly remember training both, while Tsunade points out he is only like Minato in appearance in every other way he is Kushina. That implies some level of closeness between Kushina and Tsunade and they likely have some form of bond probably due to them both spending time with Lady Mito. She the only one Kushina seemed close to besides Mikoto her best friend, in story. Which either means either everyone she was close to is dead or just not involved in the plot. For a bit of head-canon and using ladygt fan-comics. I see Kushina being friends with the mothers of team seven when they were young. Kushina was the tomboy with a crush on a boy, Mikoto was the polite reserved one, and Mebuki was a punk that straightened up later in life. I see Kizashi as one of Minato's early rivals as they were both from un-prominent clans that wanted to become Hokage. However Minato's potential was spotted by Jiraiya while Kizashi was not leading to him to be completely left in the dust after a few years. Eventually, realizing that becoming Hokage was out of his reach, just retiring early, starting a business, and marry Mebuki once she finally grew up enough to say yes... and started to openly enjoy his bad jokes. Fugaku didn't seemed to be that close with Minato to me. So he was more of an unacknowledged rival as he would claim he wanted to take up the role of chief of the military police, when he secretly wished to become Hokage.

Kushina didn't seem to have a team despite her age and rank. Though that is likely because like always, Kishimoto didn't put much consideration into backstory unless its to explain something happening in the plot. Though a good excuse is that because she was the village's demon container and the last Uzumaki seal master she was too much of a target to be allowed a genin team. So she adopted Minato's trying to bond with each one, and if he ever complained she would probably joke that they are practice for when she has kids of her own.

From what I recall, Obito was her favorite, in the anime, to heighten the tragedy that he killed her along with her husband and orphaned their son leaving him to take up her role as Kurama's container...with all the suffering she knew would come from that.

Kakashi is not a bad teacher because he "favored Sasuke." The only thing he taught Sasuke that he didn't teach the others was the chidori, and the reason for that is to look at the situation. Sasuke was going up against Gaara an incredibly powerful genin that defeated Lee, the prized student of his rival Gai. He had to focus on him or Sasuke would be killed. Yes, he shoved Naruto off to Ebisu but it was very likely that the water walking was what he was going to train the team in anyways. Which he considered fine because, Neji was unlikely to kill him. Look at both fights Neji had during the chunin exam, he constantly requested the matched be call in his favor once it was obvious he was more skilled than his opponent, so he would not seriously injure or kill his opponent if the match went on, and of course both refused. So if Naruto lost he would live if seriously injure at worse. Sasuke would be killed. Which one do you focus on?

Granted this is somewhat the fault of the story rushing. It was implied before the chunin exam that Kakashi mostly trained the main cast as a team. Granted it would have been better if he had done more individual training. As Naruto's education before joining the team was atrocious and Sakura lacked a specialty.

Now granted I did point out...awhile back how Kakashi is a bad teacher, he does not adjust his training on an individual level. Look at how he taught the team tree climbing and Naruto wind release as well as the shadow clones. He begins with a long technical explanation of what he is teaching them. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi give another simpler but still very technical explanation. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi tries simplifying again, and Naruto still doesn't get it. Finally, an exasperated Kakashi shows him what they will be doing, he finally gets it, and Kakashi gives one last explanation that Naruto also gets.

Naruto needs to be shown what his is suppose to be doing, he doesn't get things when it only explain to him on a conceptual level.

Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the Rasengan by showing him the steps and letting him figure it out. Granted with a few tips here and there.

Asuma gave Naruto a explanation then a demonstration then finished off his explanation.

Fukasaku had Gamakichi with him to give him a simplified explanation. 

Killer Bee seemed to be able to connect with Naruto.

Yamato wasn't a teacher he was a captain. The closest thing to a lesson he gave Naruto was a dress-down where he told him, he needed to find his own strength instead of relying on Kurama.

Well no. It is not the same. Really, my overall problem is the delivery of Kakashi just telling Sasuke to simply forget about his revenge, rather than calling him out on all of the acts Sasuke did in the name of revenge as you listed. It is the message of simply saying revenge is bad and Kakashi showing a bit of moral myopia over it rather the extremes and circumstances of either case that is contradictory and in my eyes rather hypocritical. Obviously anything and everything Sasuke has done is not something you should be rooting for, but again that is not he is called out on, Both Naruto and Kakashi are giving him the basic don't seek revenge schtick.

Sasuke just picked a fight with Naruto and used an assassination jutsu during the fight. In fact, they were going so at it that Kakashi had to intervene because they were about to kill Sakura. Who tried to intervene because she felt while watching their spar; that they were going too far and were trying to kill each other. Both Sasuke and Naruto were given the message that they went too far. Naruto just needed Jiraiya to appear to get the message. Sasuke needed a sit down lecture.

The lecture could be summed up as: 'Sasuke, I did not teach you my signature jutsu so you could try to kill your teammates with it. There are a lot of people like you in this world that lived short bitter lives obsessed with revenge. Even if they achieve their revenge, they have nothing else to live for because they devoted their lives to it. I don't want that to happen to you. You need to move on. Like you, before forming this team everyone I have ever cared about is long dead, but we have found new people to care about in our teammates. Let's enjoy our new bonds and move forward with our lives, rather than obsessing over what we have lost.'

After this lecture, Sasuke abandoned everything to join the enemy in the name of power to get his revenge.

Shikamaru spent a few days moping after Asuma's death, then decided to go after his killers. After achieving his revenge, he went back to his old life with new dedications such as planning on becoming the Jonin sensei of Asuma's child. 

Generalizing them, they are both about revenge. It is the context where we must find the difference.

This is all true, but my main point is the "do not seek revenge" message falls flat on it's stupid face if you get other people doing it, then had the very person telling one character that all of a sudden say "okay, I'm gonna help out for this one."

The only justification is to look at the how they go about it instead of what they are doing.

Shikamaru and his teammates were going after an enemy of the village, The Akatsuki, that they already knew a general location of. They weren't abandoning the village or joining the enemy nor did they attack any member of the village that tried to stop them. While their Hokage Tsunade tried to persuade them not to go, she relented after Kakashi join them as a fourth member; which means it was approved by the village.

Sasuke had a seal on his neck that had everyone worried since it was designed to draw the person into desiring to serve an enemy of the village, Orochimaru, that just attacked the village and killed the third Hokage. He in a fit of jealousy picked a fight and used a jutsu designed for assassination on his teammate & the closest thing he has to a best friend. He abandoned the village to join the enemy for power like everyone feared he would and when his teammate tried to bring him back; he tried to kill him. This is just from one arc, this is ignoring everything else he did during part two.

Now looking at how they went about it, do you think they are equal guilty because they were both after revenge?

Ah...Seems that Boruto manga did have this month off...No clue why they needed a break. Granted a lot of shounen jump manga have been having breaks recently, but those were so they could plan out their final storyline. Which I doubt is happening in Boruto. Could be they were given a month off to think about their story and move it along faster...I doubt even if that was the case it would really change anything.

Dragon Ball Super 86. Gas powers up and starts beating up an untransformed Goku. His gang members notice that he is looking increasingly older. So I guess the theory his increase in his power because he is rapidly aging was correct. Oh Granolah is back up. Its a Buu remix with Goku stalling Gas while Gran charges up a big attack to finish him, oh and Vegeta gets back up to reprise his role.

...Well that's new and will likely cause people to complain. Once the attack is charged Goku summons up a giant energy version of himself to grab Gas, and throw him into the sky; so the attack won't destroy the planet. And Gas is likely defeated. He might get up next chapter might not. Surprised for once that someone other than a Saiyan score the winning blow.

As for the Sasuke part...well, I think you need to go back farther and the main cause of why everything happened the way it did in the first place.

Honestly, I think Pain needed to say "That's not a plan, that is a goal" kind of inference indicating that wanting to achieve takes more than just wanting it to occur. You want change? You have to be the change.

Nagato was a bitter nihilist because of his best friend's death. Naruto awakened his old-self by reminding him of Jiraiya's faith in him and at least promising to try to end the cycle of hatred.

I don't mind the cycle of hatred during the Pein arc as it was just introduced and Minato points out was a part of the current ninja system; a system Naruto already wants to change when he became hokage.

The cycle of hatred became a problem almost immediately after the Pein arc because it became merely the permeant excuse to chase after Sasuke.

The problem with the final battle is that of the simplest of storytelling elements; a hero's counter to their antagonist. Sasuke had a plan, and Naruto didn't seem to have one. Its the same problem as in the Last Jedi. Both Luke the cynical mentor that Rey in-theory restores hope in and the big bad Kylo believe that you should completely destroy the past, which means Rey should be against that...how in the movie is she against that? How did she send any message that she was against that and her stance on the issue to the audience? Because fans of the movie embrace wholeheartedly the antagonist's stance. From what I recall, like Naruto, Rey didn't have a stance/answer. And yes, I count following Jiraiya's teaching and at least trying to find peace good enough for the Pein arc.

Pain: "How will you bring peace?"
Naruto: "I don't know"
Pain: "That's not good enough"

*5 minutes later*

Pain: "How will you bring peace?"
Naruto: "I'll do....something"
Pain: "That sounds good. Deus Ex Machina activate"

Did I get it right?
 

Its more "I'll follow Jiraiya's wishes and try to find the answer." While also reminding Nagato that Jiraiya believed in him, renewing his hope in peace, and placing his trust in Naruto. I don't have a problem with Pein's talk no jutsu. Since finding the answer to world peace or ending the cycle of hatred is difficult.

But, I don't think the excuse works in the final battle with Sasuke. Since that was suppose to be a clash of plans that were made from the paths they walked to reach that point. Sasuke gave his stupid Shadow-Hokage terrorize the world straight plan while Naruto had no plan, despite the fact the it was the last battle before the end. Which then led to the problems of Boruto as Naruto's failure to have a plan or even an idea meant the next generation has to repeat the same conflict.

 

...Not really. When you actually look at the "talk no jutsu" scenes. Naruto has very limited persuasion abilities. Largely its people that have given up on life and became bitterly cynical about the world. Then after a fight Naruto tells them they shouldn't give up hope on the world and they can fight to make it better.

 

Hell, when you look at his attempts at Talk-no-Jutsu-ing Sasuke, it didn't work for most of the series because Sasuke was obsessed with revenge not about being cynical about the world. It only worked once Sasuke was over revenge, became cynical about the world, and planned enacting his hokage of the shadows to scare the world straight idea.

 

If you made Naruto ~Evil wohooo~ all he would do is just reaffirm what they already believe, and won't be able to convince them of anything.

Let's be real here, the concept of evil is the idea that you hold a person accountable for their actions in the Narutoverse. The moment you believe they deserve punishment for their wrongdoings, then you are evil and need to be stopped. 

I guess you could say that killing the innocent is evil, but they have this idea of guilty because you support a corrupt system which is not too far off from how people see America today in terms of systemic bigotry, but that is politics and not worth discussing here. Just saying it is alot more realistic than you think.

Naruto is a self-made hypocrite and when it is someone else's revenge or justice he talks you out of it, but if HE deems it okay like say him getting mad and wanting revenge on Orochimaru for taking away his boyfriend best friend then it is okay. 

Naruto should have died a long time ago

The story shows various characters that are suppose to represent what Naruto would be like if he turned "evil." Also, if you don't like evil how about dark or cynical? Haku, if Naruto became so desperate for affection he would turn himself into a human-weapon for anyone that showed him a little affection. Gaara, if Naruto believed no one could ever love him so he lashes out at the world and does acts of murder to prove he exist. Neji, if he resigned himself to the system and put down others for trying to make a change. Nagato, a student of Jiraiya that tries to fulfill his dream of peace but doesn't believe reforming the ninja system can be done peacefully. Obito, love of his life is killed so he gives up on the world. Boruto, if Naruto was a spoiled brat that always complained about his suffering but never did anything to improve it, and I swear whenever someone does evil/dark Naruto fanfic they often turn out like Boruto.

A lot of people seem to believe that being cynical and thinking the world sucks makes them smarter for figuring out, "the truth of the world." The thing is that on some level all the characters in Naruto know the ninja system sucks, cynical about the world, and resigned in the fact that nothing can change. What makes Naruto stand out is that he wants to change it and believes he can. If not, at least he is trying. So, he brings hope to people who initially look down on him through them seeing his efforts; even if it just when facing them. That is the Talk-No-Jutsu. If he is cynical/dark/evil he is just one voice among many saying nothing can change and just give up. Of course this important part of the story was neglected to chase after Sasuke and abandon for Hinata.

People that believe the Talk-no-Jutsu shows Naruto massive persuasion power he has are just buying into a meme.

This has to get political for a second but look at how people treated Obama/Trump. They came in promising hope, change, and to fix the damages in the system. Lot of people bought into their promises and voted for therm. (How you feel about them I will leave up to people opinion of them and hope we all leave it at that.) It very similar to what Naruto did.

Now for what was considered evil in the story. The characters actually had a very standard morality. The main difference is the societal pressure put on them was they were told since they were young to suppress those morals and their emotions by their ninja code. That told them to be emotionless tools is the ideal, which Naruto pretty much rejected by the first arc, and declared he would make his own way ninjas should live by. Beyond that don't betray your village seem to be what defines you as evil or not.

If I make a evil Naruto fic someday... it would be where he believes Sakura dies... and he snaps and kills Sasuke. Like Anakin Skywalker, though... there is still good in him.

...Don't we call that Obito?

Seems possible, considering how Iruka's actions towards Naruto, as he said himself, were stemming from forgetting how Naruto's actions as a kid were like his own, and how some of it also felt like it was because Naruto was Kurama's Jinchuriki, and how Mizuki telling the truth did make Naruto almost pour out a lot of chakra in rage

Was it forgetting? I thought it was the fact he knew Naruto was just like him was why he was tough on him. He just never expressed it to Naruto and the third was just reminding him of that...granted also there was his resentment of him being the host of kurama.

Naruto said during the Gaara fight that he almost gave into hatred and became like Gaara, but hearing Iruka's speech gave him hope, and according to Bee; Iruka's words have carried him through the series.

The writing for Orochimaru ended being a disservice to his early characterization.

Orochimaru was pretty much done as a threat once Tsunade beat him. To show her as the new capable hokage. She could have killed him off right then & there and it would better off for the story, except, Kishimoto already got the idea in his head to have the three Sannin be team 7's masters during the time-skip. 

Amen to that, Phantom.

And ironic too how as strong as he got thanks to him, Sasuke still seemed honestly afraid of Orochimaru, since he decided to bide his time to try to beat him, and even then, Orochimaru was still too strong for him since he couldn't keep him repressed forever, as shown in his fight with Itachi until Orochimaru was sealed (or part of him)

Cautious is a better word for it. He spent three years with a ticking clock over his head of either he became stronger than him or he would be absorbed. He even acknowledged that he barely won because Orochimaru was crippled, both by the third sealing his arms therefor his ability to use jutsu and his brother by giving him a mental obsession with the sharingan, and he still had to deal with him inside his body until Itachi forced him out during their battle to seal him away. Granted that wasn't long. Kind of faded though once Orochimaru was revived and became the token evil teammate.

I'll just say this, the power creep in this series is absurd and pointless. The cast and the villains do not need to be this strong on the outset. Ikemoto is trying to make his character and story impressive by making them stronger than Naruto but it doesn't come off as believable and the way he goes about it is uninteresting. The fact that the two main character are so strong due to Karma Seals instead of something like training make them feel contrived and unearned.

For example the fig... spat this chapter are suppose to be between two people that completely surpass anyone in Naruto in strength, but not for one image in this chapter or any other have they ever come off as that strong. The main cast instead just looks incompetent when they fight them. Not help that Naruto and Sasuke were entirely dependent on one power (a rinnegan eye, and kurama) to be the world's two strongest ninja and became absolute joke once they lost them; at least Naruto has.

They could have easily made Punk Haku-Level in term of strength and it would have been more believable.