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#48281 DrK

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:57 PM

And then you remember Karin exists and everything that is horrible about it seems even more unnecessary. It literally could not be MORE OBVIOUS that he did not need to do SS or plan to do SS and yet he did because he has no spine. Karin has no purpose. And no attempt to mitigate the toxicity of it was made. Absolutely pathetic.


Edited by DrK, 08 December 2017 - 12:00 AM.


#48282 James S Cassidy

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:12 AM

 

Well, Like I said it is one thing to be a "bad boy", But Sasuke pushed well beyond that and became a sociopathic megalomaniac. Therefore the girl wants' "bad boy" doesn't hold water here :shrug:

Which only proves that SS was never a true intention, but rather a by-product of pushing NH together. They didn't put SS together because the fans wanted the pairing to be canon. They pushed SS together because the fans wanted NH to be together and SS being the extreme case of "pair the spares."

If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.

The point of Sakura loving Sasuke since the beginning is not a reason why they are together now....it is an excuse for the people to use for why they should be together in the first place. An excuse that stops holding water because it makes it treat people are possessions and not as characters.

If it were not the case, then by that logic Naruto and Sakura should have still be together because Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning....and the Studio knew this. They knew that this argument could be used against them...so they made it seem like Naruto never loved Sakura to begin with.

"Sakura should be with Sasuke and Hinata should be with Naruto because they loved them since the beginning"
"Okay, but Ino loved Sasuke and Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning, so why didn't these pairings comes to pass if that was the case?"
"ummm....hold on a sec." *takes a black pen, blacks out some chapters and rewrite new lines* "See? Naruto and Ino never loved them since the beginning and it was all a rivalry game. So it doesn't count for them cause we changed and retconed that."

If SS and NH were the intention since chapter 1....then they would have written it better that way. Yeah, Kishimoto may be bad at writing romance, but isn;t the point of Editors to make sure that the point is getting across effectively?

"Substantive editor—Helps a writer improve his fiction manuscript by focusing on story elements, plot, characterization, dialogue, order of scenes, point of view, voice, setting, word choice, sentence construction and syntax, and pace—anything that could improve the strength of the manuscript."

An editor can change the writing of a story if they see fit with or without the writers stand point and it is not uncommon for writers and editors to fight with each other and have problems. Many writers even claim that editors mess with their work too much and even change the context for their own agenda.
https://diannej.com/...ange-your-work/

So when it comes to a story like Naruto, let me ask this and this is for anyone....do you think the writer has the ultimate choice or does the editor? What if the writer's intent is different from his editor's intent or what if the writer wanted to do something that the editor didn't want him to? What happens if Kishimoto wants NS, but his editor did not? Should theeditor comply with what the writer wants or do you think the editor can change whatever they want to what they feel is "to better improve the story" in what they think is better?

We talk about Kishimoto's intent and what not and maybe Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and if he left that task to his editor to fill those in....then I can see why such a huge discrepencies have occured. Writers have given up on editors who were too stuck up and felt they were always right and the writer they work for is wrong. This also explain why Kishimoto went through so many editors.

Yahagi was the editor that stayed the longest he stayed until he wanted to leave and do other things. Yahagi seemed like the man who was more intuned with the story at its base and just wanted to improve of the story to better convey the message rather than change the message outright.



 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 December 2017 - 05:07 PM.

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#48283 DrK

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:31 AM

Imagine if they got an interviewer who actually read the manga.

 

Kishimoto: "It was all about Naruto and Hinata getting married from an early stage."

Interviewer: "Have you read your own manga? It's incredibly obvious that it wasn't about Naruto and Hinata getting married from an early stage, or at all."

K: "I planned it from the beginning."

I: "No you didn't."

K: "OK, I planned it from the middle."

I: "You mean from the part where Sakura hugs Naruto right after being hurt by the fact that Hinata loves Naruto?"

K: "Yes, that's when I decided to have Naruto and Hinata get married. That was the precise moment when I decided that Sakura was too obsessed with Sasuke to fall in love with Naruto. Thank you for reminding me."

I: "..."

 

Interviewer gets up and walks out. Kishi is sitting by himself.

 

Kishimoto: "I wish I could go back and change it now. I look ridiculous."



#48284 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:24 AM

If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.
 

It feels like people saw how BS things had become and tried to have Kishi write Sasuke like that at the very last second with the whole "change / abolish the ninja system" thing with Naruto, but of course, without the actual effort to create a foundation, then actually build it up properly, it only further added to the BS...on top of NOT changing out Sasuke out of that attitude at the same time...


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#48285 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:29 AM

It feels like people saw how BS things had become and tried to have Kishi write Sasuke like that at the very last second with the whole "change / abolish the ninja system" thing with Naruto, but of course, without the actual effort to create a foundation, then actually build it up properly, it only further added to the BS...on top of NOT changing out Sasuke out of that attitude at the same time...

 

And without the foundation, there's nothing but to let things fall to ****



#48286 Analyzer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:30 PM

Which only proves that SS was never a true intention, but rather a by-product of pushing NH together. They didn't put SS together because the fans wanted the pairing to be canon. They pushed SS together because the fans wanted NH to be together and SS being the extreme case of "pair the spares."

If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.

The point of Sakura loving Sasuke since the beginning is not a reason why they are together now....it is an excuse for the people to use for why they should be together in the first place. An excuse that stops holding water because it makes it treat people are possessions and not as characters.

If it were not the case, then by that logic Naruto and Sakura should have still be together because Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning....and the Studio knew this. They knew that this argument could be used against them...so they made it seem like Naruto never loved Sakura to begin with.

"Sakura should be with Sasuke and Hinata should be with Naruto because they loved them since the beginning"
"Okay, but Ino loved Sasuke and Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning, so why didn't these pairings comes to pass if that was the case?"
"ummm....hold on a sec." *takes a black pen, blacks out some chapters and rewrite new lines* "See? Naruto and Ino never loved them since the beginning and it was all a rivalry game. So it doesn't count for them cause we changed and retconed that."

If SS and NH were the intention since chapter 1....then they would have written it better that way. Yeah, Kishimoto may be bad at writing romance, but isn;t the point of Editors to make sure that the point is getting across effectively?

"Substantive editor—Helps a writer improve his fiction manuscript by focusing on story elements, plot, characterization, dialogue, order of scenes, point of view, voice, setting, word choice, sentence construction and syntax, and pace—anything that could improve the strength of the manuscript."

An editor can change the writing of a story if they see fit with or without the writers stand point and it is not uncommon for writers and editors to fight with each other and have problems. Many writers even claim that editors mess with their work too much and even change the context for their own agenda.
https://diannej.com/...ange-your-work/

So when it comes to a story like Naruto, let me ask this and this is for anyone....do you think the writer has the ultimate choice or does the editor? What if the writer's intent is different from his editor's intent or what if the writer wanted to do something that the editor didn't want him to? What happens if Kishimoto wants NS, but his editor did not? Should theeditor comply with what the writer wants or do you think the editor can change whatever they want to what they feel is "to better improve the story" in what they think is better?

We talk about Kishimoto's intent and what not and maybe Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and if he left that task to his editor to fill those in....then I can see why such a huge discrepencies have occured. Writers have given up on editors who were too stuck up and felt they were always writer and the writer they work for is wrong. This also explain why Kishimoto went through so many editors.

Yahagi was the editor that stayed the longest he stayed until he wanted to leave and do other things. Yahagi seemed like the man who was more intuned with the story at its base and just wanted to improve of the story to better convey the message rather than change the message outright.



 

 

I'm still looking for any evidence of these claims.

 

Point is, they are the intention. There's no point in arguing that. 



#48287 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:52 PM

Which only proves that SS was never a true intention, but rather a by-product of pushing NH together. They didn't put SS together because the fans wanted the pairing to be canon. They pushed SS together because the fans wanted NH to be together and SS being the extreme case of "pair the spares."
If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.
The point of Sakura loving Sasuke since the beginning is not a reason why they are together now....it is an excuse for the people to use for why they should be together in the first place. An excuse that stops holding water because it makes it treat people are possessions and not as characters.
If it were not the case, then by that logic Naruto and Sakura should have still be together because Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning....and the Studio knew this. They knew that this argument could be used against them...so they made it seem like Naruto never loved Sakura to begin with.
"Sakura should be with Sasuke and Hinata should be with Naruto because they loved them since the beginning"
"Okay, but Ino loved Sasuke and Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning, so why didn't these pairings comes to pass if that was the case?"
"ummm....hold on a sec." *takes a black pen, blacks out some chapters and rewrite new lines* "See? Naruto and Ino never loved them since the beginning and it was all a rivalry game. So it doesn't count for them cause we changed and retconed that."
If SS and NH were the intention since chapter 1....then they would have written it better that way. Yeah, Kishimoto may be bad at writing romance, but isn;t the point of Editors to make sure that the point is getting across effectively?
"Substantive editorHelps a writer improve his fiction manuscript by focusing on story elements, plot, characterization, dialogue, order of scenes, point of view, voice, setting, word choice, sentence construction and syntax, and paceanything that could improve the strength of the manuscript."
An editor can change the writing of a story if they see fit with or without the writers stand point and it is not uncommon for writers and editors to fight with each other and have problems. Many writers even claim that editors mess with their work too much and even change the context for their own agenda.
https://diannej.com/...ange-your-work/
So when it comes to a story like Naruto, let me ask this and this is for anyone....do you think the writer has the ultimate choice or does the editor? What if the writer's intent is different from his editor's intent or what if the writer wanted to do something that the editor didn't want him to? What happens if Kishimoto wants NS, but his editor did not? Should theeditor comply with what the writer wants or do you think the editor can change whatever they want to what they feel is "to better improve the story" in what they think is better?
We talk about Kishimoto's intent and what not and maybe Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and if he left that task to his editor to fill those in....then I can see why such a huge discrepencies have occured. Writers have given up on editors who were too stuck up and felt they were always writer and the writer they work for is wrong. This also explain why Kishimoto went through so many editors.
Yahagi was the editor that stayed the longest he stayed until he wanted to leave and do other things. Yahagi seemed like the man who was more intuned with the story at its base and just wanted to improve of the story to better convey the message rather than change the message outright.


O_O Damn, James!

But what you said is true in all forms of prose. It even happens in another medium I am familiar with, and that's comic books. A lot of times, editors will do stuff that goes against what the writers and pencilliers are out to do. And that creates a huge conflict of sorts when trying to work out the best approach to continuing a story, and can affect continuity no matter what.

And in any writing, continuity to me is the most important thing, since without it and consistency, which go hand in hand, you can end with a hot mess. And that's what you see in Naruto, no matter what the irritating winds of late here are saying, and such, that is why we're pissed, nothing other than that.

#48288 Analyzer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:55 PM

O_O Damn, James!

But what you said is true in all forms of prose. It even happens in another medium I am familiar with, and that's comic books. A lot of times, editors will do stuff that goes against what the writers and pencilliers are out to do. And that creates a huge conflict of sorts when trying to work out the best approach to continuing a story, and can affect continuity no matter what.

And in any writing, continuity to me is the most important thing, since without it and consistency, which go hand in hand, you can end with a hot mess. And that's what you see in Naruto, no matter what the irritating winds of late here are saying, and such, that is why we're pissed, nothing other than that.

 

Where is the error in continuity? Quantify this claim. 



#48289 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:57 PM

Go quantify how much you like NS in a thread and then maybe people will feel like you're deserving of any evidence

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#48290 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:59 PM

Go quantify how much you like NS in a thread and then maybe people will feel like you're deserving of any evidence


True dat, Tsuki. But the buzzing from you know who is not worth it to me. She can say what she wants, but her opinion is crappy because she lashes out at us for not following her lead. All you can do is ignore her, or don't say her name.

#48291 James S Cassidy

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:13 PM

It doesn't matter what Analyzer says at this point....there is nothing to prove that SS and NH were an intention since the beginning and there is plenty of evidence that putting those characters together was a retcon within itself. Not only that, but more proof is in the fact that many people among Kishimoto's own staff and family saw NS being the endgame and were surprised just as much as we are. Heck, the Japanese demographic were surprised and some even upset that NH and SS became canon.

We also have several other plot points and writing ethics that don't match up to the ending. In fact they almost seem like two different stories.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 December 2017 - 05:13 PM.

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#48292 Analyzer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:17 PM

It doesn't matter what Analyzer says at this point....there is nothing to prove that SS and NH were an intention since the beginning and there is plenty of evidence that putting those characters together was a retcon within itself. Not only that, but more proof is in the fact that many people among Kishimoto's own staff and family saw NS being the endgame and were surprised just as much as we are. Heck, the Japanese demographic were surprised and some even upset that NH and SS became canon.

We also have several other plot points and writing ethics that don't match up to the ending. In fact they almost seem like two different stories.

 

"There is nothing to prove that SS And NH were intended since the beginning.",

 

That's not quite the wording I would use, but there is evidence that they were planned early on, given Kishimoto said so. That's your proof. 

 

There is no proof on the other hand, that they were put together as a retcon. This fundamentally relies on calling the author a liar. I asked Bryon for this proof, (not opinion, -proof-) but he is unable to. If you would like to supply it, we can discuss it.

 

 

True dat, Tsuki. But the buzzing from you know who is not worth it to me. She can say what she wants, but her opinion is crappy because she lashes out at us for not following her lead. All you can do is ignore her, or don't say her name.

 

Lash out is a bit silly. I'm not attacking you, just saying that what you are putting out there is not true at times.

 

 

Go quantify how much you like NS in a thread and then maybe people will feel like you're deserving of any evidence

 

I've spoken positively about NS several times. I am not going to do it though because you need reassurance. There are Pro-Ending and Anti-Ending NS fans. We just have separate opinions, but are still one family. 



#48293 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:22 PM

No we're not. Because you don't seem to find any fault in anything that was done.


Oh yea golly gosh, remember that time Kishimoto said "there was a plan to make Sakura move onto Naruto but then..." Kishimoto can say what he likes even when he flip flops all over the damn place. What matters is what he wrote and if what he wrote doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.

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#48294 Analyzer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:28 PM

No we're not. Because you don't seem to find any fault in anything that was done.


Oh yea golly gosh, remember that time Kishimoto said "there was a plan to make Sakura move onto Naruto but then..." Kishimoto can say what he likes even when he flip flops all over the damn place. What matters is what he wrote and if what he wrote doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.

 

Kishi did not say "There was a plan to make sakura move onto Naruto but then", Kishi said that he considered it. There is a difference between a thought and definitive. This is what I mean when there is NS groundwork but no actual usage of it. 

 

Saying "You don't seem to find any fault in anything that was done", is firstly, false, given I give my criticisms, but my criticisms are functionally, completely not-based off pairings. I made a post today criticizing the Boruto series. The difference between us still remains that I am functionally a Pro-Ender, as there is far more good that outweighs the errors and faults of the series to me than others.

 

We're an NS family, simply two sisters that have different point of views. I do not agree with it, even think your point of view is based off of inaccuracies, but understand the core frustration of your point of view.



#48295 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:10 AM

We also have several other plot points and writing ethics that don't match up to the ending. In fact they almost seem like two different stories.

 

Sadly, James, that IS what we got; two different stories which contradict each other, and that in the end, we lost for it. :ermm:


Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 09 December 2017 - 01:12 AM.


#48296 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:26 AM

K: I'm writing a story about Ninja's and hard work! I want to write a story glamorously depicting violence and cool Ninja's while also doublespeaking about how revenge is wrong and there should be like forgiveness and world peace or whatever. -Several years later, gets to the end of his story- Lol Joking about that world peace kitten, because my franchise can't continue without Ninja's and therefore violence, so now everything i wrote before is warped and tossed into the trashcan...why do people hate me again?! 


Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 09 December 2017 - 01:26 AM.

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#48297 DrK

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:33 AM

K: I'm writing a story about Ninja's and hard work! I want to write a story glamorously depicting violence and cool Ninja's while also doublespeaking about how revenge is wrong and there should be like forgiveness and world peace or whatever. -Several years later, gets to the end of his story- Lol Joking about that world peace kitten, because my franchise can't continue without Ninja's and therefore violence, so now everything i wrote before is warped and tossed into the trashcan...why do people hate me again?! 

At least he was able to portray the eternal brotherhood of Naruto and Sasuke. Unlike the sisterhood of Tsuki and Analyzer, which was tragically shot down before it could become a legend.



#48298 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:36 AM

:lmao: I guess that makes me the Sasuke of that relationship, only Narutolyzer couldn't TnJ me.

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#48299 Derock

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:46 AM

At least he was able to portray the eternal brotherhood of Naruto and Sasuke. Unlike the sisterhood of Tsuki and Analyzer, which was tragically shot down before it could become a legend.

 

LOL! That wasn't meant to be. I had to stop it.


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What's Happening with the Naruto series as of now!


#48300 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 02:00 AM

Derock ruined my chances of Marrying someone I tried to drop into lava, stab and flat out said I didn't find lovable.

How could you do this to me Derock...

Ps: I would have made the BEST dead beat mom. My kid wouldn't see me for MORE then 13 years :zaru:

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 09 December 2017 - 02:02 AM.

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