28 replies to this topic

[archangel]

Just a thought.

 

Sasuke and Naruto have as much importance in the 2nd part of the manga, the two have such different path that it beg the question for real: Who was the main character? : Naruto or Sasuke. Kishi answer would be Naruto.

 

I think the main problem of the manga was that it was both.

Until the pain arc, Naruto was the main character. Until then, the story works well Naruto side. At the end of pain arc, he beat a villain that no one in the village could, as gain admiration from everyone in the village and got hug by Sakura who said thank you to him while Hinata watching the whole thing understandingly and Iruka reminiscing of Naruto path to get there.

When we first read the manga, the hero as like 3 goal

-Become Hokage

-Having Sakura as a girlfriend

-Get respect from everyone in the village.

 

That ending could have a time skip to show all that happen afterward if it wasn't from one thing and that was Sasuke. Check everypoint. Become Hokage. What was a Hokage in Naruto's mind at 12. The Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village. After pain, Naruto is pretty much that. Getting Sakura could have been made in one conversation and the last point is pretty much done with everyone celebrating Naruto victory. That were the problem was. Kishi wrapped up his main character there. Think about it.

Afterward, the whole war arc revolve around what??. The Uchiha clan, the Sharingan that become the  Rinnegan, infinite Tsukuyomi, where Sasuke side (even Tobi was interested in Sasuke for unknown reason that were never revealed)  are all part of what drives the whole after pain incident. What Naruto did ? Go to the Kage summit to get the Raikage to forgive Sasuke, fake confession, stop Sasuke, Tame the fox, learn about the past of the beast (setting him up to oppose Sasuke) and fight, losing Neji in the process and then work with Sasuke. His character didn't evolve or advance here. Sasuke, on the other end has all the attention. The kage summit show evil Sasuke at his peak, turned on Sakura, Kakashi and then Naruto. He killed Danzo.  Afterward, he got his eternal mangekyou Sharingan and killed Zetsu prime. He confront Itachi and team up to kill Kabuto.(A dead man stop 1 of the main antagonist of the war, so much for the new generation), resurrect Orochimaru to learn more about the for Kage. When he enter the battlefield, it's all about him, which side is he, who trust him, who doesn't. he then talk to the sage until he team up with Naruto and finally fight him to a draw, where he called it a draw to save Naruto from dying of blood loss. 699 is the conclusion of Sasuke's arc. He's the one having to interact with all team 7, ending with Naruto ending him over his leaf headband, saying they're friend again. He's the character that drive this last arc. 

So Sasuke was sadly the main character from this point which might explain how the rest kind of suck.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Kishi indirectly said that Sasuke is more of the real protagonist since Naruto's only job was to save Sasuke and the rest is just bonus.

[Narufan85]

On the surface, Naruto is still the hero. He achieves his dreams (becoming Hokage) and "saves" Sasuke. However, anything more than a surface reading makes clear that almost everything after the Pein arc is driven by Sasuke and the Uchiha, and that time after time the plot is twisted to excuse and justify his actions.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Kishi indirectly said that Sasuke is more of the real protagonist since Naruto's only job was to save Sasuke and the rest is just bonus.

 

I guess that means naming the manga Naruto was just a red herring?

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 29 September 2015 - 04:17 PM.

[Nostradamus]

Kishi indirectly said that Sasuke is more of the real protagonist since Naruto's only job was to save Sasuke and the rest is just bonus.

Yep. Is sad and stupid as it is. It's the truth.

The real protagonist of this story was Sasuke.

Naruto was just a plot device in order to "save" Sasuke.

 

 

 

I guess that means naming the manga Naruto was just a red herring?

Yes it was a red herring.

Edited by Nostradamus, 29 September 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[Nar123]

 

I guess that means naming the manga Naruto was just a red herring?

 

 

Kishimoto should've just called the story "Sasuke"

[tricksie]

On the surface, Naruto is still the hero. He achieves his dreams (becoming Hokage) and "saves" Sasuke. However, anything more than a surface reading makes clear that almost everything after the Pein arc is driven by Sasuke and the Uchiha, and that time after time the plot is twisted to excuse and justify his actions.

Yes, Naruto is still technically the 'hero.' But the story switched halfway through to being about Sasuke. 

 

To me, the problem has always been that Kishimoto was more interested in Sasuke's story (the cool-kid-turned-bad-until-he's-redeemed) than Naruto's story (the hero-who-prevails).

 

For Sasuke....

- his clan backstory was built up and explored.

- Sasuke was tested and failed, again and again.

- His hero's journey was focused on, as were his many skills and power-ups.

- And finally, and most importantly, the whole ending tension centered on trouble from his origin story that only he could defeat by learning the final lesson of using teamwork. (The last brawl between him and Naruto was just a bonus in the end, and had no real bearing on the rest of the overall plot. Whichever one won, they were both going to free everyone else and let them go home. The suspense of the story was already over.)

 

HOWEVER, for Naruto....

- his clan backstory was largely left unexplored, except for when it was useful to the story (Karin's convenient Uzumaki heritage).

- Naruto was tested, but he was always either saved in the end or came out victorious on his own.

- Naruto's hero's journey ended with the Pain arc. There were a few moments of introspection afterwards (like at the waterfall of truth), but the rest of the story was driven by Sasuke's journey of personal goals. 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

 

Anyway.... I think Kishimoto lost his way after the Pain arc. It's completely clear now that that's where the story should have ended.

 

His editor left, and the one guiding force that was holding the story together went with him. Kishimoto fell out of love with Naruto's storyline, and since there was no more direction, he was free to fall in love with Sasuke's storyline.

 

That's how, in the end, Sasuke is put on equal 'hero' footing with Naruto, and even being awarded Sakura (for no reason whatsoever), thereby diminishing Naruto's status as main hero even further.

 

So, I would say Naruto was the main hero up to the end of the Pein arc. But afterwards, the story revolved around Sasuke. Naruto's name was still on it, but he was no longer the main hero. He was just left hanging around to look 'heroic.' The main hero role had switched to Sasuke.

[Swagkura]

Having Sasuke be the one to end the final chapter of the whole series himself honestly makes me question the main hero role even more. I guess I'd probably say Sasuke was more of a main character than Naruto, but that's more towards the end compared to the beginning, where Naruto was the most prominent figure.

[Narufan85]

Yes, Naruto is still technically the 'hero.' But the story switched halfway through to being about Sasuke. 

 

To me, the problem has always been that Kishimoto was more interested in Sasuke's story (the cool-kid-turned-bad-until-he's-redeemed) than Naruto's story (the hero-who-prevails).

 

For Sasuke....

- his clan backstory was built up and explored.

- Sasuke was tested and failed, again and again.

- His hero's journey was focused on, as were his many skills and power-ups.

- And finally, and most importantly, the whole ending tension centered on trouble from his origin story that only he could defeat by learning the final lesson of using teamwork. (The last brawl between him and Naruto was just a bonus in the end, and had no real bearing on the rest of the overall plot. Whichever one won, they were both going to free everyone else and let them go home. The suspense of the story was already over.)

 

HOWEVER, for Naruto....

- his clan backstory was largely left unexplored, except for when it was useful to the story (Karin's convenient Uzumaki heritage).

- Naruto was tested, but he was always either saved in the end or came out victorious on his own.

- Naruto's hero's journey ended with the Pain arc. There were a few moments of introspection afterwards (like at the waterfall of truth), but the rest of the story was driven by Sasuke's journey of personal goals. 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

 

Anyway.... I think Kishimoto lost his way after the Pain arc. It's completely clear now that that's where the story should have ended.

 

His editor left, and the one guiding force that was holding the story together went with him. Kishimoto fell out of love with Naruto's storyline, and since there was no more direction, he was free to fall in love with Sasuke's storyline.

 

That's how, in the end, Sasuke is put on equal 'hero' footing with Naruto, and even being awarded Sakura (for no reason whatsoever), thereby diminishing Naruto's status as main hero even further.

 

So, I would say Naruto was the main hero up to the end of the Pein arc. But afterwards, the story revolved around Sasuke. Naruto's name was still on it, but he was no longer the main hero. He was just left hanging around to look 'heroic.' The main hero role had switched to Sasuke.

 

What a fantastic post. And you touch on so many things that drive me crazy. When the Uzumaki heritage is referenced, it is for the benefit of Sasuke. Karin uses the chains to save him. Sasuke is the one who visits the Uzumaki temple. There is no backstory for one of the founding clans of Konoha.

 

I think the decision to cast Naruto and Sasuke as reincarnations (which, mind you, completely wrecked one of the main themes of the manga established way back in the Naruto-Neji fight) was more about finding a way to boost Naruto to keep up with OP eye skill Sasuke.

 

And it's Sasuke who has the most heartfelt comments in the closing chapters. Not the titular character, but Sasuke.

 

The Pein arc absolutely is the culmination of Naruto's story. He undergoes training and through hard work is able to master a new skill (sage mode). He faces his strongest foe yet who has destroyed his home (Pein). He is challenged and almost fails (going 8 tails). Yet his resolve allows him to triumph and his worldview is reinforced as part of his victory. And as icing on the cake, he shares a heartfelt hug with his love interest, one of the most overt signs of affection we see in the manga.

 

I'm just going to make that my new headcanon. The fight with Pein is the final villain, the hug with Sakura is him getting the girl. Anything after that is cast out of my memory.

[archangel]

Yes, Naruto is still technically the 'hero.' But the story switched halfway through to being about Sasuke. 

 

To me, the problem has always been that Kishimoto was more interested in Sasuke's story (the cool-kid-turned-bad-until-he's-redeemed) than Naruto's story (the hero-who-prevails).

 

For Sasuke....

- his clan backstory was built up and explored.

- Sasuke was tested and failed, again and again.

- His hero's journey was focused on, as were his many skills and power-ups.

- And finally, and most importantly, the whole ending tension centered on trouble from his origin story that only he could defeat by learning the final lesson of using teamwork. (The last brawl between him and Naruto was just a bonus in the end, and had no real bearing on the rest of the overall plot. Whichever one won, they were both going to free everyone else and let them go home. The suspense of the story was already over.)

 

HOWEVER, for Naruto....

- his clan backstory was largely left unexplored, except for when it was useful to the story (Karin's convenient Uzumaki heritage).

- Naruto was tested, but he was always either saved in the end or came out victorious on his own.

- Naruto's hero's journey ended with the Pain arc. There were a few moments of introspection afterwards (like at the waterfall of truth), but the rest of the story was driven by Sasuke's journey of personal goals. 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

 

Anyway.... I think Kishimoto lost his way after the Pain arc. It's completely clear now that that's where the story should have ended.

 

His editor left, and the one guiding force that was holding the story together went with him. Kishimoto fell out of love with Naruto's storyline, and since there was no more direction, he was free to fall in love with Sasuke's storyline.

 

That's how, in the end, Sasuke is put on equal 'hero' footing with Naruto, and even being awarded Sakura (for no reason whatsoever), thereby diminishing Naruto's status as main hero even further.

 

So, I would say Naruto was the main hero up to the end of the Pein arc. But afterwards, the story revolved around Sasuke. Naruto's name was still on it, but he was no longer the main hero. He was just left hanging around to look 'heroic.' The main hero role had switched to Sasuke.

I totally agree with you. Especially about the Uzumaki heritage. You only scratch the surface, about having a tough body and being specialize in sealing jutsu. Though the clan was wipe out, no backstory was there to explain why and by whom? 

Sasuke has it all ( taijutsu, genjutsu, sharingan, mangekyou and rinnegan mastery in 20 chapters. plus ninjutsu mastery of fire and lightning that has been explored toward the course of the manga)

Naruto stay only more of the same. Shadow clone & Rasengan with all the variant. He could have grown in mastering wind, which open plenty of opportunity and sealing jutsu being use to stop Sasuke. Even when he got boost like sage mode or nine-tails, it still those same attack (when they said the tailed beast bomb was a rasengan variant, they pretty much nailed that coffin.)

 

Another problem was the writing of Sasuke as Naruto rival. Sasuke going after Itachi didn't in term of rivalry oppose to Naruto, hell Itachi being an Akatsuki, Sasuke's revenge totally help Naruto (which took place during the whole Akatsuki cool arc). When they make Sasuke an Akatsuki, I thought this was going somewhere, but after Danzo's death and having his surgery, he pretty much ditch the group to join force again with Naruto. They only reveal now that he wants to be Hokage, which is the only real time he become Naruto rival. Sasuke was the plot that didn't make it end at Pain. Worst is it was still fixable to make Naruto the hero. Though he is powerful, no moment show Naruto grow as a leader. that what I expected from the final arc.

 

The saddest thing you said is in Bold. The ending is taking away in importance most of the 3 point I said when I start this. After the war, nobody really celebrate Naruto or even team 7 triumph. They celebrate their victory like they actually do something. Sasuke stopping the fight to a draw, still makes him better than Naruto, if you count their encounter in shippuden, Sasuke score card is like 2-1-0. Naruto never beats him. Sasuke get Sakura after treating her like she was the lowest life form he encounter. So in this ending, the rival get the girl and is stronger than the hero. Okay. Then timeskip, Naruto appear Hokage, why would I expect a celebration or something to show the triumph of the young dead last at the ninja academy that finally grasp his dream right?  They diminish Naruto become Hokage, get beat by his rival in every point and just to rub it even further, show him at 700 as a douche-bag father that care more about reputation than his own kid. I mean damn it, you were that kid, you kind of know the reason that push you to do it. During the whole freaking story, you connect with people, can you at least connect with your son?

[Nate River]

Pretty much what everyone else said. Naruto was clearly the main character up until Pein. After that, Naruto is still, nominally, the main character in that the reason the cast cares on the objectives they do is because Naruto cares about them. However,as a practical matter he quit driving the story and just reacted to other characters. He doesn't grow as a person and we don't learn anything meaningful about him as a character.
 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

I see that more as a bail out of Madara problem. He'd written himself into a corner and so came along Kaguya. Whether they are reincarnations or not, the penultimate battle was always going to be Naruto and Sasuke working together (even if it is duress) because that was going to be the excuse the story peddled as to why the village didn't expel or execute him.

[Shadow1275]

I totally agree with you. Especially about the Uzumaki heritage. You only scratch the surface, about having a tough body and being specialize in sealing jutsu. Though the clan was wipe out, no backstory was there to explain why and by whom? 

Sasuke has it all ( taijutsu, genjutsu, sharingan, mangekyou and rinnegan mastery in 20 chapters. plus ninjutsu mastery of fire and lightning that has been explored toward the course of the manga)

Naruto stay only more of the same. Shadow clone & Rasengan with all the variant. He could have grown in mastering wind, which open plenty of opportunity and sealing jutsu being use to stop Sasuke. Even when he got boost like sage mode or nine-tails, it still those same attack (when they said the tailed beast bomb was a rasengan variant, they pretty much nailed that coffin.)

 

Another problem was the writing of Sasuke as Naruto rival. Sasuke going after Itachi didn't in term of rivalry oppose to Naruto, hell Itachi being an Akatsuki, Sasuke's revenge totally help Naruto (which took place during the whole Akatsuki cool arc). When they make Sasuke an Akatsuki, I thought this was going somewhere, but after Danzo's death and having his surgery, he pretty much ditch the group to join force again with Naruto. They only reveal now that he wants to be Hokage, which is the only real time he become Naruto rival. Sasuke was the plot that didn't make it end at Pain. Worst is it was still fixable to make Naruto the hero. Though he is powerful, no moment show Naruto grow as a leader. that what I expected from the final arc.

 

The saddest thing you said is in Bold. The ending is taking away in importance most of the 3 point I said when I start this. After the war, nobody really celebrate Naruto or even team 7 triumph. They celebrate their victory like they actually do something. Sasuke stopping the fight to a draw, still makes him better than Naruto, if you count their encounter in shippuden, Sasuke score card is like 2-1-0. Naruto never beats him. Sasuke get Sakura after treating her like she was the lowest life form he encounter. So in this ending, the rival get the girl and is stronger than the hero. Okay. Then timeskip, Naruto appear Hokage, why would I expect a celebration or something to show the triumph of the young dead last at the ninja academy that finally grasp his dream right?  They diminish Naruto become Hokage, get beat by his rival in every point and just to rub it even further, show him at 700 as a douche-bag father that care more about reputation than his own kid. I mean damn it, you were that kid, you kind of know the reason that push you to do it. During the whole freaking story, you connect with people, can you at least connect with your son?

I wouldn't even give Naruto the win in the last fight. That fight was a draw in the end, with no clear victor. Naruto never beat Sasuke outright.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yes, Naruto is still technically the 'hero.' But the story switched halfway through to being about Sasuke. 

 

To me, the problem has always been that Kishimoto was more interested in Sasuke's story (the cool-kid-turned-bad-until-he's-redeemed) than Naruto's story (the hero-who-prevails).

 

For Sasuke....

- his clan backstory was built up and explored.

- Sasuke was tested and failed, again and again.

- His hero's journey was focused on, as were his many skills and power-ups.

- And finally, and most importantly, the whole ending tension centered on trouble from his origin story that only he could defeat by learning the final lesson of using teamwork. (The last brawl between him and Naruto was just a bonus in the end, and had no real bearing on the rest of the overall plot. Whichever one won, they were both going to free everyone else and let them go home. The suspense of the story was already over.)

 

HOWEVER, for Naruto....

- his clan backstory was largely left unexplored, except for when it was useful to the story (Karin's convenient Uzumaki heritage).

- Naruto was tested, but he was always either saved in the end or came out victorious on his own.

- Naruto's hero's journey ended with the Pain arc. There were a few moments of introspection afterwards (like at the waterfall of truth), but the rest of the story was driven by Sasuke's journey of personal goals. 

- And lastly, the final big tension of the story was completely focused on the Uchiha clan. Nothing of the Uzumaki clan or anything that connected directly to Naruto, except Minato. Sure Sasuke and Naruto were supposed to be some reincarnated crap, but to me that seems like a last-minute element to justify Naruto's continued involvement in Sasuke's story.

 

Anyway.... I think Kishimoto lost his way after the Pain arc. It's completely clear now that that's where the story should have ended.

 

His editor left, and the one guiding force that was holding the story together went with him. Kishimoto fell out of love with Naruto's storyline, and since there was no more direction, he was free to fall in love with Sasuke's storyline.

 

That's how, in the end, Sasuke is put on equal 'hero' footing with Naruto, and even being awarded Sakura (for no reason whatsoever), thereby diminishing Naruto's status as main hero even further.

 

So, I would say Naruto was the main hero up to the end of the Pein arc. But afterwards, the story revolved around Sasuke. Naruto's name was still on it, but he was no longer the main hero. He was just left hanging around to look 'heroic.' The main hero role had switched to Sasuke.

 

Nice one, Tricksie.

And what is annoying is it also makes Naruto feel like he was pointless.. IN HIS OWN STORY!!!! X_X That's what pisses me off more than anything, since I really haven't seen many manga where a hero gets kicked to the curb like Naruto was. :(

[Nostradamus]

 

Nice one, Tricksie.

And what is annoying is it also makes Naruto feel like he was pointless.. IN HIS OWN STORY!!!! X_X That's what pisses me off more than anything, since I really haven't seen many manga where a hero gets kicked to the curb like Naruto was. :(

Well this is what happens when the author doesn't give a f anymore.

[Phantom_999]

 

I guess that means naming the manga Naruto was just a red herring?

 

Obviously. Or is it? the man can't make up his freaking mind.

[archangel]

I wouldn't even give Naruto the win in the last fight. That fight was a draw in the end, with no clear victor. Naruto never beat Sasuke outright.

I should have express myself better lol. in my head, 2-1-0 was for W-D-L. though normally is W-L-D so my bad:p. He didn't win since Sasuke called the draw to save him from blood loss. In the end, he never beat him so in my opinion Naruto never beats him so I totally agree with you.

[rocci]

Sasuke is more hero than the hero himself.

[Tiller]

 

 

Kishimoto should've just called the story "Sasuke"

Pretty much.

 

From my perspective the sad thing is that Kishimoto had developed Sasuke into a great villain. He just didn't have the courage to keep it going.

[rocci]

Pretty much.
 
From my perspective the sad thing is that Kishimoto had developed Sasuke into a great villain. He just didn't have the courage to keep it going.

He's not a villain and not did kishi develop him into one.

[Tiller]

He's not a villain and not did kishi develop him into one.

He was a murdering fascist terrorist, who wanted to enslave all of mankind under a magic spell against their will in order so his dream of order and peace would be fulfilled. He didn't care if the rest of the world wanted such a world, he was going to force it on them.

 

He was a grade A villain under any honest description. He's basically a version of the Dr. Doom template, without the Iron Mask.