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#53381 RulesofNature

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 03:49 AM

oh I'm very nice until someone else is not.  :confused: It's not about being right or wrong and I can handle a disagreement. But it's easy to see if someone wants a showdown with you or have a chat. When someone posts a thought out analysis, and the other says "Do you actually mean *insert outrageous opinion*?", people will never stop clarifying themselves. That Cathy Newman interview with Jordan Peterson rings a bell. So if I think only oppressed people can be sad..you decide.

 

In any case, Naruto unfairly compared two struggles when they were apples and oranges. I understand that the ending butchered the characters, but the hero and heroine never brought the branch system up again, and Neji dying for them makes it even worse --- so they deserve all my booing. : ) 

It's kinda par for the course at this point. While the system was always the problem, Naruto as a series tried to backpedal away from it as it geared up for Boruto. The Uchiha genocide and Konoha's role in it is swept under the rug for the good of the village. The Hyuuga branch family slavery thing was just dropped and never followed up on. All those examples of the system killing people's souls in it's attempt to turn them into killing machines? Now we have Boruto, who wants to serve as the guy who does all the jobs that the village can't publically be tied to. They can dress up the fact they're training child soldiers all they want, but it's still about putting kids in life or death situations. And Naruto being a distant father to his kids in order to run the village makes me feel like he's the type of guy pre-timeskip Naruto would have chewed out. Naruto didn't change the world, he just became another cog in the machine. Then there's letting Orochimaru run free to help the village despite his history of human experimentation.

 

Honestly, it's a little unsettling when you stop to actually examine Konoha while the series wants to make it out to be this wonderful place. Yet it's early depictions were so bad fanfic writers were making stories about how Naruto should just burn it down. Like, if Konoha were depicted performing acts that would be considered war crimes IRL I'm sure the series would try to spin them as being a good thing. But that's what happens when you become morally bankrupt, nothing is off limits to you.


Edited by RulesofNature, 12 September 2021 - 03:54 AM.

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#53382 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 04:34 PM

It's kinda par for the course at this point. While the system was always the problem, Naruto as a series tried to backpedal away from it as it geared up for Boruto. The Uchiha genocide and Konoha's role in it is swept under the rug for the good of the village. The Hyuuga branch family slavery thing was just dropped and never followed up on. All those examples of the system killing people's souls in it's attempt to turn them into killing machines? Now we have Boruto, who wants to serve as the guy who does all the jobs that the village can't publically be tied to. They can dress up the fact they're training child soldiers all they want, but it's still about putting kids in life or death situations. And Naruto being a distant father to his kids in order to run the village makes me feel like he's the type of guy pre-timeskip Naruto would have chewed out. Naruto didn't change the world, he just became another cog in the machine. Then there's letting Orochimaru run free to help the village despite his history of human experimentation.
 
Honestly, it's a little unsettling when you stop to actually examine Konoha while the series wants to make it out to be this wonderful place. Yet it's early depictions were so bad fanfic writers were making stories about how Naruto should just burn it down. Like, if Konoha were depicted performing acts that would be considered war crimes IRL I'm sure the series would try to spin them as being a good thing. But that's what happens when you become morally bankrupt, nothing is off limits to you.


I still feel one reason story wise to why the system didn't change besides the obvious factors to gear up for Boruto could stem to Shikamaru and Kakashi.

When you think about it, those two were screwed as badly by the cruelty of the system and its flaws in many ways, but they only cared about keeping that status quo instead of letting the system and its hypocrisy being exposed and repaired to what Hashirama had really wanted it to be. They also acted as advisors and mentors to Naruto, so their attitudes could have prevented him from being able to really change the system and just becoming another cog in a broken system, similarly to Tobirama with Hashirama when he acted as an advisor to his older brother when he was the first Hokage and trying his damnedest to not want real change either.


Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 13 September 2021 - 07:00 PM.


#53383 sushi.

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Posted 12 September 2021 - 05:01 PM

I agree with all of what you wrote. I also think you should be able to criticize the characters for the ending, even if they were powerless to it. Which was what the other guy told me not to. I know well that the shinobi system could go on for the sake of Boruto, but depending on my time of day I might still say f you to the characters and that should be OK. And I see a lot of people in this fandom are selective of when they blame characters decisions on themselves, and when they put blame on the author. Which isn't directly tied to the recent discussion, I was just reminded of it. Instead of coming together and denouncing the ending, fans point fingers.

 

This is a huge generalization, but my impressions are this; SNS gang blame Sakura for everything she did to Sasuke, stalking him across nations until he accepted her and whatnot. That behavior is loathsome and worse than Hinata's, whose stalking was mostly unnoticed by Naruto. Even so Sasuke is responsible for impregnating her and leaving her for 12 years. I also don't get why they ship canon SNS while hating on canon Sakura. Sasuke is now a konoha loyalist and my condition for shipping it was them changing the system together. I really really miss revolutionary Sasuke, and reformist Naruto. And Sakura who's very unpolitical. She'd be the humanitarian, and could make an organization such as doctors without borders. 

 

And on this site, everything is blamed on Hinata, but she was very passive on making NH happening. She stood still..it was handed to her by Sakura and she took it. I don't even blame her fans in the west, and I'm tempted to put it all on Kishi and call him meek but I don't know how hard he fought behind the scenes.

Sasuke is also hated for being Sakura's abuser, but I don't think he is. I don't think I could ever care for NH, but with some modifications I would've liked SS. I actually think both SS and NH fans projects the SNS dynamic onto their ship. They think Sakura is Sasuke's light and happiness, but canonically that is Naruto's role- he only cared about one person from Konoha after he left. Naruto saved his friend on his own, and had Sakura's role been relevant that would boost SS for me. As for NH many of them like the idea of two underdogs making a connection through their pain and loneliness, but that's also SNS. It was true on Hinata's side, but not really mutual on paper. The foundation was there, so call it an unmade cake. 

 

And NH, they hate Sakura for not liking Naruto but they don't hate Naruto for ignoring Hinata's confession, or for lying about liking Sakura in the first place. That they want the guy that liked a girl for the sake of his rival, with their favorite girl is real strange. But they can have him, I don't want that guy with Sakura. The moment Kishi made the decision that Sakura didn't like Naruto after all, he also decided Naruto never liked Sakura. Which makes him equally manipulative as Sakura was during her confession, and he's as mean as the guy in the movie 10 things I hate about you. Many pro-enders like NS as a brotp, but other than what I just said, they have no meaningful interactions in Boruto at all. They're completely nuked, and in a way I see that as a good thing. They really had to kill them hard  :lulz:

 

SS people are very hardcore Sakura fans, and now they criticize SP's treatment of her. Well, boohoo. That's the price for their ship happening. Kishi tied her heroine status to her love interest status, he revealed that in an interview. I think she should've been the heroine regardless of that, but she's not.

 

I like all members of T7 and I don't dislike nor care for Hinata. On twitter and tumblr I follow SNS and NS fans, which is a bit unusual and I'm quite exposed to takes from all sides of the (anti-ending) fandom. I think people should either not consider the ending altogether, or blame all characters. They all turned out pathetic in the end. (Here I don't consider criticism of their behaviors before the ending. )


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#53384 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 12:05 AM

Just look at virtually every "main" antagonist Naruto faced off against - someone who on some level is similar to himself - Haku, Gaara, Nagato, Sasuke, etc. - and he's willing to risk it all to help them. Anyone else? Look at Koyuki in the Land of Snow movie. Naruto, on a personal level, couldn't give two craps about her and her home's situation. He's only finding her and helping her because it's his job. He literally says so and looks annoyed doing it.

It is hard to talk about the movies since most of them are non-canon so we can't really make a good judgement off that, but I do agree with you on all the villians being similar. 

"But which Naruto? Jiraiya's a naruto, Hashirama is a Naruto, Gaara is a Naruto, Naruto is a Naruto...too many Narutos"
-Plague of Gripes

I will say that the concept is not a bad one. Batman's entire villain spectrum is a dichotomy of himself.
Joker is Batman's insanity
Two-Face is Batman's struggle with Justice vs Personal grudge
et cetera.

Where Naruto fails is the fact that Naruto doesn't really learn from...well himself, but also doesn't try to tell them why he has felt that way and why he disagrees with letting that mindset bring him down. We have points of acknowledgement and we get some moments, but it wasn't really enough and he just ends up repeating the same mistakes. It all just "happpens to work out." Thank god, the villains convert, die, or even both. 
 

 

Youre right about the torture, it was Hiashi that performed the jutsu against Hizashi while Neji watched. But Naruto still said Hinata suffered as much as Neji. Which is explained here. And this was after Neji told Naruto the whole deal and he still didnt listen. https://leportraitdu...naruto-had-been

I have to agree with you on this one, Sushi. Naruto...just sucks when it comes to this. He doesn't really have answers and he just kind of beat brows people to see his way.

Take this scene from Killing Joke.


This one is what Naruto should have said to Sasuke or even Gaara
"I don't know what it was that bent your life out of shape, but who knows? Maybe I've been there too. Maybe I can help. We could work together. I could rehabilitate you. You needn't be out there on the edge anymore. You needn't be alone. We don't have to kill each other"

This showcases that Naruto may not know the answers, but that he still has hope to find them...That he knows what it is like and the other person does not have to be alone in their struggles. No, instead it is "your suffering is no different than anyone else's so get over it." Superman does this too with trying to talk reason through experience, but Naruto...it is just so anti-climatic. People just believe him despite him being an idiot. 

Comparing Hinata's suffering to Neji's is just so....selfish and makes Naruto look like a complete incompetent a*hole.

 


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#53385 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 14 September 2021 - 02:13 PM

question did anyone order the new narusaku zine and if so did you guys get an email about a digital download for it cause i did and i don't think i ordered that unless it was part of the ultimate edition



#53386 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 14 September 2021 - 05:20 PM

I still feel one reason story wise to why the system didn't change besides the obvious factors to gear up for Boruto could stem to Shikamaru and Kakashi.

When you think about it, those two were screwed as badly by the cruelty of the system and its flaws in many ways, but they only cared about keeping that status quo instead of letting the system and its hypocrisy being exposed and repaired to what Hashirama had really wanted it to be. They also acted as advisors and mentors to Naruto, so their attitudes could have prevented him from being able to really change the system and just becoming another cog in a broken system, similarly to Tobirama with Hashirama when he acted as an advisor to his older brother when he was the first Hokage and trying his damnedest to not want real change either.

I said this years ago when I first joined but reforms need to happen or at least get started as quickly as possible in order for them to stick. People like to stick to the status quo and don't like radical changes, the only time they will tolerate it is due to a radical event. In the Ninja World, that was the 4th war and the formation of the 5 village alliance. The next best chance after that would be when the old guard was replaced with fresh blood, but Naruto is the most junior member -as the rest were already kage while he recently became one in 700- of the most junior member -the leaf due to Danzo was the last member added after it was already formed- of the alliance. So, by the time he got in the new normal was already set so their wasn't much impetus to do any reforms. Especially, the major and sweeping reforms needed to fix the problems in the Ninja System. Not helped that he apparently spent a lot political capital to get Sasuke off the hook and seems reluctant to clean house (seeing as he never dismiss those elders) when he finally got in.

 

Kakashi is a man who is resigned to how kitten the system is but hopes for better. While Shikamaru is both lazy, cynical, and pragmatic by nature. Neither one is a person do make any reform that isn't a necessity. However, they would have been great advisors to Naruto -who is a person that inspires them to believe things could get better- while also acting as voices of reason and pragmatism. Unfortunately Hinata big day needed Kakashi as hokage to make it specials. So, he was in for about ten years and by the time Naruto got in he was old enough to abandon most of the reforms he may have hoped to enact when he was younger.

 

 

It is hard to talk about the movies since most of them are non-canon so we can't really make a good judgement off that, but I do agree with you on all the villians being similar. 

"But which Naruto? Jiraiya's a naruto, Hashirama is a Naruto, Gaara is a Naruto, Naruto is a Naruto...too many Narutos"
-Plague of Gripes

I will say that the concept is not a bad one. Batman's entire villain spectrum is a dichotomy of himself.
Joker is Batman's insanity
Two-Face is Batman's struggle with Justice vs Personal grudge
et cetera.

Where Naruto fails is the fact that Naruto doesn't really learn from...well himself, but also doesn't try to tell them why he has felt that way and why he disagrees with letting that mindset bring him down. We have points of acknowledgement and we get some moments, but it wasn't really enough and he just ends up repeating the same mistakes. It all just "happens to work out." Thank god, the villains convert, die, or even both. 
 

Pretty much. The problem with Naruto is that their isn't much self reflection and examination into Naruto as a character. As I said a few days ago Naruto never gives up because... he never gives up and that is his ninja way. The Why? Is never really looked at. Doesn't help that a large part of the story focuses on chasing after Sasuke and any attempt to analyze that in the manga was either surface level or quickly brushed aside if it happened at all.

I have to agree with you on this one, Sushi. Naruto...just sucks when it comes to this. He doesn't really have answers and he just kind of beat brows people to see his way.

This one is what Naruto should have said to Sasuke or even Gaara
"I don't know what it was that bent your life out of shape, but who knows? Maybe I've been there too. Maybe I can help. We could work together. I could rehabilitate you. You needn't be out there on the edge anymore. You needn't be alone. We don't have to kill each other"

This showcases that Naruto may not know the answers, but that he still has hope to find them...That he knows what it is like and the other person does not have to be alone in their struggles. No, instead it is "your suffering is no different than anyone else's so get over it." Superman does this too with trying to talk reason through experience, but Naruto...it is just so anti-climatic. People just believe him despite him being an idiot. 

Comparing Hinata's suffering to Neji's is just so....selfish and makes Naruto look like a complete incompetent a*hole.

Your example could have been better as Gaara was one of Naruto few successes that worked.

 

Paraphrasing the Talk no jutsu used on Gaara:

After they had both worn out from their fight Naruto uses he chin to slowly edges himself to Gaara to finishes him off to save Sakura.

 

Gaara: "Stay back! Why do you keep fighting?! Why are you trying to fight so hard for others instead of caring about only yourself like I do!?!"

 

Naruto: "Like you I used to be alone. It sucked, but now I have people I care about and am no longer alone. One of those people is in danger because of you and I won't stop until she is safe."

 

Reminding Gaara of what his uncle used to say about love. Then Sasuke informed Naruto, Sakura was safe. Then Gaara's siblings came to retrieve him which led to him apologizing to them trying to forge a connection with them, starting him on the path to recovery.

 

Sasuke had the problem of he could not return to the village and Naruto could not give up on him till after their final battle. And after the final battle he would return to the village. So any speech Naruto gave to Sasuke would always fail and Naruto wasn't allowed to reflect on it too much. Not help the added story of the truth of the uchiha clan making the question of, why should Sasuke return to the village that killed his family?

 

As for Neji again Naruto thought he was being an ass for putting down others. That he wasn't the only one who suffered and even Hinata has suffered. If he is such a genius why doesn't he try to change it? Naruto will change it once he becomes hokage. Granted that was dropped after Neji's death.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 15 September 2021 - 06:46 PM.


#53387 James S Cassidy

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Posted 19 September 2021 - 04:36 AM

Your example could have been better as Gaara was one of Naruto few successes that worked.

Is that the only example? How about the others? It didn't work with Pain/Nagato.
That conversation basically went.
"How would you bring peace?"
"Dur, I don't know...I'll just do it."
"Okay, I trust you."

It was one of the laziest writing tactics I have ever seen and many fans agree it was dumb. 
We are told Naruto was supposed to change the world, but did he really? It feels like everyone else did all the work and Naruto got the credit cause he got lucky in a big fight. 

And since the new canon kind of blasts anything that happened previously in the past as nonsense....then nothing was successful just serendipitous
 

"And after the final battle he would return to the village. "

 

Yet he didn't. I guess it was more metaphorical at this point. 

 

So any speech Naruto gave to Sasuke would always fail and Naruto wasn't allowed to reflect on it too much.

 

There are many ways he could have reflected on it, but Kishimoto was too lazy to really dive deeper in something that was pretty much the main focus and drive of Naruto. 

 

As for Neji again Naruto thought he was being an ass for putting down others.

 

Yeah, but Naruto never stopped to wonder and ponder why. He didn't treat Hinata like kitten and others for no reason and equaling one suffering to another is just....stupid. It would be like me suffering from all the hate I get from the Naruto fandom is equal to all the hate black people got during the times of slavery...yeah, we are treated as both like kitten, but it is not like I was treated less than human for it. 

The idea that Neji only has victim mentality and not being an actual victim is where Naruto fails. Neji wasn't some guy who only thought he was kitten on and never improved himself. In fact, his whole drive was to show that he thought he was stronger than the main branch, he would still be seen as weak and an outcast. He was still branded with a curse mark because Hinata got stolen, her father killed the kidnapper, and they made Neji's father, his twin brother, pay for it. A poor ass version of a A tale of Two Cities where the other guy is forced to end his life because of a treaty the OTHER side broke in the first place. 

There is was no good reason why Neji was treated as sub-human and he was doomed to be an outcast. Naruto should have known this seeing how he was unjustly treated, but this line

"If he is such a genius why doesn't he try to change it?"

Shouldn't this be asked of Hinata instead? Why didn't she try and change it? She hated being a disappointment to her father, but she did NOTHING about it. She hated the way Neji treated her, but she never tried to end or understand HIS suffering? She didn't try at all. She cared more about Naruto than anything else and this is an issue. Naruto is literally blaming Neji for what Hinata is doing to herself. SHE is the weak one, but Neji is the whipping boy. SHE was the reason Neji's dad died. SHE was the reason Neji died. Her weakness cost so many lives and almost cost so many more, but we have to be nice and say Hinata suffers too much.

This is why Neji was right...not just in people being born great, but the also the idea that Hinata is just pathetic, but she is the golden child. 



 

question did anyone order the new narusaku zine and if so did you guys get an email about a digital download for it cause i did and i don't think i ordered that unless it was part of the ultimate edition

Yeah, it came with it. I got mine too.

 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 19 September 2021 - 04:41 AM.

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#53388 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 11:58 AM

Is that the only example? How about the others? It didn't work with Pain/Nagato.
That conversation basically went.
"How would you bring peace?"
"Dur, I don't know...I'll just do it."
"Okay, I trust you."

It was one of the laziest writing tactics I have ever seen and many fans agree it was dumb. 
We are told Naruto was supposed to change the world, but did he really? It feels like everyone else did all the work and Naruto got the credit cause he got lucky in a big fight. 

And since the new canon kind of blasts anything that happened previously in the past as nonsense....then nothing was successful just serendipitous
 

Yet he didn't. I guess it was more metaphorical at this point. 

 

There are many ways he could have reflected on it, but Kishimoto was too lazy to really dive deeper in something that was pretty much the main focus and drive of Naruto. 

 

Yeah, but Naruto never stopped to wonder and ponder why. He didn't treat Hinata like kitten and others for no reason and equaling one suffering to another is just....stupid. It would be like me suffering from all the hate I get from the Naruto fandom is equal to all the hate black people got during the times of slavery...yeah, we are treated as both like kitten, but it is not like I was treated less than human for it. 

The idea that Neji only has victim mentality and not being an actual victim is where Naruto fails. Neji wasn't some guy who only thought he was kitten on and never improved himself. In fact, his whole drive was to show that he thought he was stronger than the main branch, he would still be seen as weak and an outcast. He was still branded with a curse mark because Hinata got stolen, her father killed the kidnapper, and they made Neji's father, his twin brother, pay for it. A poor ass version of a A tale of Two Cities where the other guy is forced to end his life because of a treaty the OTHER side broke in the first place. 

There is was no good reason why Neji was treated as sub-human and he was doomed to be an outcast. Naruto should have known this seeing how he was unjustly treated, but this line

"If he is such a genius why doesn't he try to change it?"

Shouldn't this be asked of Hinata instead? Why didn't she try and change it? She hated being a disappointment to her father, but she did NOTHING about it. She hated the way Neji treated her, but she never tried to end or understand HIS suffering? She didn't try at all. She cared more about Naruto than anything else and this is an issue. Naruto is literally blaming Neji for what Hinata is doing to herself. SHE is the weak one, but Neji is the whipping boy. SHE was the reason Neji's dad died. SHE was the reason Neji died. Her weakness cost so many lives and almost cost so many more, but we have to be nice and say Hinata suffers too much.

This is why Neji was right...not just in people being born great, but the also the idea that Hinata is just pathetic, but she is the golden child. 



 

Yeah, it came with it. I got mine too.

 

ok cause i didn't know i was getting a digital copy






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