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#1861 Codus N

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (Derock @ Nov 1 2012, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can vote since my power is back on.

On the issue of Sandy aftermath affecting the election, though it gave Obama a significant boost in the polls, it shouldn't anyways because NY and NJ are pro-democratic states. I was however surprised that when he visited NJ to see the devastation, Gov. Christie praised him for doing that and he's a Republican! It was an unlikely companionship between the two as the media had said.


Y'know, if Christie was running for president, I might have voted for him (if I was a US citizen), depending on how Obama goes up against him. I like this guy's bluntness. What made me very impressed with him is how he stood up against the GOP's bigotry when he appointed a Muslim to a high position in his state (I posted the article a year ago). Another thing that I liked about him is how he wasn't afraid to call out the GOP's kittentery about the debt ceiling fiasco last year. Keep in mind he criticized Obama for lack of leadership on that issue as well.

Honestly, this guy could be a way better Chief of Staff for Obama than Rahm Emmanuel did. He's someone Obama needs on his team. This guy is probably more willing to help/cooperate with the president than the rest of his party. What's even better is that he's not afraid to be on the opposite side of the president. He's really someone who'd be able to give Obama a different view on things.

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#1862 Nate River

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

QUOTE (Codus N @ Nov 3 2012, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Y'know, if Christie was running for president, I might have voted for him (if I was a US citizen), depending on how Obama goes up against him. I like this guy's bluntness. What made me very impressed with him is how he stood up against the GOP's bigotry when he appointed a Muslim to a high position in his state (I posted the article a year ago). Another thing that I liked about him is how he wasn't afraid to call out the GOP's kittentery about the debt ceiling fiasco last year. Keep in mind he criticized Obama for lack of leadership on that issue as well.

Honestly, this guy could be a way better Chief of Staff for Obama than Rahm Emmanuel did. He's someone Obama needs on his team. This guy is probably more willing to help/cooperate with the president than the rest of his party. What's even better is that he's not afraid to be on the opposite side of the president. He's really someone who'd be able to give Obama a different view on things.


It amazes me that so many people are so stunned by the lack of cooperation going on between to the and to the massive degree to which people ignore the graveyard that is the Senate that is controlled by DEMOCRATS. When was the last time Harry Reid even pretended to reach out to any of the Republican minority besides the two from Maine. Did you miss what he said two days ago? Hell, when was they last time they produced a budget that could even be voted on? All the budgets the hace voted on came from Obama (neither of which got a single vote) and the Republican House (I don't recall Reid even allowing a vote on those). Reid hasn't produced a damn thing.

Keep in mind that in 2008 the public elected a fairly left-wing group of people to all branches of government. By the time 2010 rolled around the public HATED what they had done. In particular, they despised ObamaCare and the economy still sucked. So what was the response? The most dominate performance by the Republican Party in decades in terms of the number of seats in decades. A group of people that included many people who expressly ran AGAINST what the Democrats were doing. Reid is a worthless waste of space, but he was correct when he uttered this basic point last year. They have two very different idea about what to do and until the public decides which way it really wants to go, grid lock will likely continue.

What on earth did you think would happen?

A generous assumption of your point would be that you think there is some amorphous middle ground that exists between the two sides and both sides just need to find it. As it comes to budget and taxes, there are a number of forms that it could take, but there is no obvious middle ground here if you believe what each side says.

Of course, the way you describe Christie leads me to believe that's not what you want. You seem to want Republicans to compromise their stance and agree with Democrats more often because you like their ideas. That's fine if you do, but spare me the bullcrap about cooperation when you write it such one-sided terms.

I think a lot of people say they want cooperation because they want Government to "Do Something," but would then subsequently b*tch and moan if turned about to be more Republican/Democratic than what they had in mind. It's something that sounds nice. If the Democrats largely compromised and passed something that was very Republican in nature, would you really celebrate it? I bet many Democrats calling for cooperation would suddenly find the concept vile (and vice versa), don't you?



#1863 Derock

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:11 AM

Well, this just in right now since Election Day has passed, Barack Obama is now re-elected as president of the US for second term! I'm really happy about this! biggrin.gif

Now, as I see the results of the polls with Florida still in counting, Mitt Romney must had did tons of screw ups during his campaign/debates because he lost majority of the swing states, including HIS own state to Obama! The hell did you do there?!

Romney lost Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Colorado, and get this: the entire West Coast (Washington to California) and the entire North Atlantic and New England States! And Florida is favoring Obama.

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#1864 Jake

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:55 AM

QUOTE (Derock @ Nov 7 2012, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, this just in right now since Election Day has passed, Barack Obama is now re-elected as president of the US for second term! I'm really happy about this! biggrin.gif

Now, as I see the results of the polls with Florida still in counting, Mitt Romney must had did tons of screw ups during his campaign/debates because he lost majority of the swing states, including HIS own state to Obama! The hell did you do there?!

Romney lost Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Colorado, and get this: the entire West Coast (Washington to California) and the entire North Atlantic and New England States! And Florida is favoring Obama.


To be fair Romney really didn't stand much of a chance at getting his home state no matter weather you count his home state as Michigan or Massachusetts, For Michigan where Romney was born, cities like Detroit which has a large minority and union population which tend to go to the Democrats, and in the case of Massachusetts where Romney was Governor, Massachusetts is the most liberal state in the union and this is something that I thought all during the primaries, "being the most electable conservative man in Massachusetts is about the same as being the sanest patient in a mental institution, he just ain't 'right.'" (I hope you get my joke there)

Also to note is that states on the west coast, what else is new between the liberal strongholds of Los Angeles CA, San Francisco CA, Salem OR and Seattle Washington, the rest of the state can not out vote them, it's the same way in New York.

Romney's Problem is that he was the Republican Elite's candidate and the Republican Elite is out of touch with the rest of the country, what the Republican Party needs to do is
  1. remove the Anti-Abortion stance from their platform
  2. end this idiotic war on drugs, it is no different from Prohibition which as we all (should) know worked about as well bringing a knife to a gunfight
  3. And finally they need to let the next Generation take over and run someone like Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, Gov. Nikki Haley of South Carolina, Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida or Sen. Rand Paul from Kentucky.
by doing this they would improve their standings with women voters and by running candidates like Gov. Jindal and Sen. Rubio will help get rid of the misconception that the Republican Party is predominantly racist, yes their are some Republicans who are racist but their are also so Democrats who are too.

I actually look for Gov. Jindal and Sen. Rubio to run in 2016 because Jindal will be leaving office in 2016 due to term limits and both said that they run for higher office this year because they were going to finish out their terms in their respective offices and states which will be up then.

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#1865 James S Cassidy

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:52 AM

Now for Political humor.

Obama Won?




Another question...so are we going to blame Bush for 4 more years or will we actually make Obama live up to his mistakes?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 07 November 2012 - 11:55 AM.

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#1866 Mik3

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

I suppose ITT: We post videos of our reactions to Obama's re-election.


My turn.



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#1867 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Codus N @ Nov 3 2012, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Y'know, if Christie was running for president, I might have voted for him (if I was a US citizen), depending on how Obama goes up against him. I like this guy's bluntness. What made me very impressed with him is how he stood up against the GOP's bigotry when he appointed a Muslim to a high position in his state (I posted the article a year ago). Another thing that I liked about him is how he wasn't afraid to call out the GOP's kittentery about the debt ceiling fiasco last year. Keep in mind he criticized Obama for lack of leadership on that issue as well.

Honestly, this guy could be a way better Chief of Staff for Obama than Rahm Emmanuel did. He's someone Obama needs on his team. This guy is probably more willing to help/cooperate with the president than the rest of his party. What's even better is that he's not afraid to be on the opposite side of the president. He's really someone who'd be able to give Obama a different view on things.


I think that Rahm Emmanuel and Tim Geithner were Obama's two worst appointees and I think that there are a lot of people out there that would've been a better Chief of Staff than Emmanuel. I can't really see a Republican taking the role though.

And for Treasury, I wanted Sheila Bair. Geithner is way too cozy with Wall Street.

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 7 2012, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To be fair Romney really didn't stand much of a chance at getting his home state no matter weather you count his home state as Michigan or Massachusetts, For Michigan where Romney was born, cities like Detroit which has a large minority and union population which tend to go to the Democrats, and in the case of Massachusetts where Romney was Governor, Massachusetts is the most liberal state in the union and this is something that I thought all during the primaries, "being the most electable conservative man in Massachusetts is about the same as being the sanest patient in a mental institution, he just ain't 'right.'" (I hope you get my joke there)

Also to note is that states on the west coast, what else is new between the liberal strongholds of Los Angeles CA, San Francisco CA, Salem OR and Seattle Washington, the rest of the state can not out vote them, it's the same way in New York.


I think that Romney might've had a chance in Michigan except for his position on the auto bailout. It would've been slim, but it would've at least been a battleground state then.

Massachusetts isn't the most liberal state. Vermont, Hawaii, Rhode Island and maybe even New York are more liberal. But it is definitely up there.



Here's to a year without campaign advertisements!


#1868 Jake

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Nov 7 2012, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Massachusetts isn't the most liberal state. Vermont, Hawaii, Rhode Island and maybe even New York are more liberal. But it is definitely up there.

Here's to a year without campaign advertisements!


According to a Gallop poll conducted in 2011 Massachusetts is the most liberal state in the union, 30.3% of people in Massachusetts identify themselves as liberal a percentage only surpassed by D.C. at 39.8% but D.C. is not a state so that doesn't count, Hawaii may be a liberal state but it also has a large military population, which tends to go Republican, and in the case of New York once you get outside of the Island of Manhattan and into upstate New York you state getting into a vary conservative area, but like I said upstate New York cannot out vote New York City.

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#1869 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:26 AM

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 7 2012, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
According to a Gallop poll conducted in 2011 Massachusetts is the most liberal state in the union, 30.3% of people in Massachusetts identify themselves as liberal a percentage only surpassed by D.C. at 39.8% but D.C. is not a state so that doesn't count, Hawaii may be a liberal state but it also has a large military population, which tends to go Republican, and in the case of New York once you get outside of the Island of Manhattan and into upstate New York you state getting into a vary conservative area, but like I said upstate New York cannot out vote New York City.


I'm looking at who the population votes for. Liberal and conservative mean different things to different people and in many areas, those terms are tarnished so people don't self-identify. Same with Democrats and Republicans. For example, Massachusetts has relatively few Democrats, but nearly all the independent voters regularly vote Democratic. However, they voted in a Republican governor from 1991 until the end of Mitt's term. And they did vote in a Republican senator. Yeah, Scott Brown was a moderate Republican, but he was still to the right of the most conservative Democrat in the Senate - so Massachusetts voted in a more conservative senator than Nebraska, North Dakota and Montana.

Hawaii has had a Republican governor, but when she ran for an open senate seat, she was absolutely trounced. I'm guessing that Hawaii's military population is either voting Democratic or is voting at their home state by absentee ballot. Obama took 70% of the vote there - his best total.

And Vermont even elects a Socialist to the senate. They gave Obama his second best returns.

New York has some conservative areas. (I don't know about very conservative. Maybe if you count Herkimer County which went for Mitt by 2:1, but it had fewer than 500 votes total - so yeah, it doesn't really out-vote NYC.) But we're talking about the state as a whole. OTOH, it's the only one of the four mentioned that had any counties going for Romney (and it wasn't just Herkimer County) so I'd be less hesitant to make the claim that it's more liberal than Massachusetts.

Rhode Island is another one with a ton of independents that tend to vote Democratic although they also have a decent string of non-Democratic governors.

Maryland also gave Obama a better percentage return than Massachussetts, but I don't know enough to extrapolate from that. And that's all the states that gave Obama more than 60% of the vote.


But that's far from a complete picture on any of those so maybe Massachusetts is more liberal. But I certainly wouldn't assume as much on the basis of a few polls.


#1870 Nee-sama

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

Well it took 5 days, but my dad finally spoke to me. Well, sort of. He emailed me this:


Read if you dare - I couldn't even finish it. --Click here to view--
The Will of the People Has Spoken and America Died
By Dr. Ileana Johnson Paugh Wednesday, November 7, 2012 Our Constitutional Republic died a peaceful death on November 6, 2012. Having reached the point of no return in a comatose state after years of progressive and illegal immigration assaults, the fabric of society is now completely unraveled and Uncle Sam’s America is no more.
The United States of America is now relegated to the dust bin of history as a “has been” empire. The Shining City on the Hill, the hope of so many millions since July 4, 1776, no longer exists. What rises from the ashes is a country that few of us will recognize, like, or learn to accept submissively.
After 236 years of existence, a new country emerges today, run by secular progressives who rejected our Constitution, what we stand for, and who we are as a nation. The Supreme Court will be forever altered after its last conservative members will be replaced by the liberal academics who call themselves "progressives.” The rule of law will be implemented by Executive Orders, making Congress irrelevant.
The communist motto “Forward” that resonate with so many ignorant Americans will plunge us into many years of darkness from which we will never be able to recover. We have proven our Founding Fathers right, they did give us a Constitutional Republic and we were unable to maintain it.
The forces of the failed communist fundamental transformation that were driven underground in many places around the world, resurfaced with a vengeance in the United States and have now taken over.
How long we will still have freedom of speech, movement, assembly, and control of our private property remains to be seen. Faith and churches will be driven underground; allowing secularism to prosper and take deep roots among the progressives whose God is Mother Earth.
The welfare dependent Americans, unions, and illegal aliens have chosen for the rest of us the dark path of serfdom to big government and to socialist utopia.
Who would have guessed that the very people who were complaining that the government is not extricating them from disaster or giving them the help they needed in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy, would vote for the politicians who turned their backs on needy Americans after the lights went dark when the political photo opportunities ended?
Who would have guessed that Americans were as ignorant and irresponsible as to choose fiscal destruction over fiscal sanity for their children and grandchildren, secularism and communism over faith, dependence over personal responsibility and self-reliance?
Americans have been protesting for the last four years the dismal state of the economy and the direction of our country, the corruption of our politicians, and the loss of personal and economic freedom.
Rallies in support of conservatism overwhelmed venues for Mitt Romney while rallies for our bumbling President became scarcer and scarcer. Yet, miraculously, at the ballot box Obama won all over the country.
We lost seats in the Senate. Americans chose liars and cheats to be their Senators and Representatives, rejecting those who protected the Constitution. The candidate from Massachusetts who claimed direct American Indian lineage to Pocahontas is now a Senator, having defeated Scott Brown. Representative Allen West lost his seat by a narrow margin to the infamous Wasserman Schultz from Florida.
Americans chose high unemployment, reduction of our military, communist indoctrination of their children, and loss of personal freedoms unlike we have never seen before in this country.
I am saddened by the loss of millions and millions of American soldiers who have died to preserve freedom yet we lost it on November 6, 2012. Those buried in cemeteries around the world and at Arlington must be rolling in their graves today. We shamelessly allowed their sacrifice of blood and treasure to go in vain. We have no honor because we let down all the soldiers who fought in recent times and returned home limbless with lives shattered from physical and mental wounds of war.
I mourn today the loss of my country. I have fought hard over the last four years to prevent its overt and accelerated destruction but the darker forces stronger than many of us have overcome concerted efforts by millions of Americans to maintain the Republic. Mediocrity, sloth, godlessness, dependence, cowardice, using the law selectively or ignoring it, and hopeless corruption will define the new country.


Anyone care to take up the challenge of posting a reaction to this?

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#1871 catsi563

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

I cant Im too busy laughing at it. laugh.gif

Edited by catsi563, 12 November 2012 - 04:32 PM.

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#1872 James S Cassidy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

What do you all think about this?



I don't like to spread my religious views on people nor will I share them. I don't even want to get into whether or not Barack Obama is a good or bad president.

I guess what I want to say is if this is what truly people believe, I am sad to say they are going to be disappointed. If this was just a joke by Jamie Foxx, this is a terrible joke to make. Some people thought I was crazy when I said some people view Obama as a God, well here is your proof. He is nothing more than a man. He is not going to wave his hand and make the whole country better over night. Doesn't work like that.

I find this also disgusting.

http://www.myfoxbost...ristmas-display

I think some people need to relearn the term "Tolerance." How can one person who is offended by Christmas decoration get what they want, but a group of people who are offended by it taken down don't get what they want?

I am all for equality, but not like this. Not when people can't celebrate what they want without fear. Equal rights mean equal responsibilities.

And no, "separation of church and state" does not exist in the Constitution. What people are quoting is the Thomas Jefferson letters. What the Constitution actually says is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It means the government shall not create a national religion nor regulate any religion.

You can believe whatever you want, but you can't force the government to regulate something based on it going against religious views. It is against the Constitutional right of this country.








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#1873 Codus N

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Nov 4 2012, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course, the way you describe Christie leads me to believe that's not what you want. You seem to want Republicans to compromise their stance and agree with Democrats more often because you like their ideas. That's fine if you do, but spare me the bullcrap about cooperation when you write it such one-sided terms.

I think a lot of people say they want cooperation because they want Government to "Do Something," but would then subsequently b*tch and moan if turned about to be more Republican/Democratic than what they had in mind. It's something that sounds nice. If the Democrats largely compromised and passed something that was very Republican in nature, would you really celebrate it? I bet many Democrats calling for cooperation would suddenly find the concept vile (and vice versa), don't you?


You are assuming things. Just where the hell did you get that idea?? I admire and respect Christie (from what I've read about him) simply because he has his own convictions and is unbending unless he believes the others are right. Christie is by far the most decent Republican I've read about so far, and is not afraid to go against his party's stance if he doesn't believe they're right. He also points out Obama's faults for what they are in the most objective manner I've read so far.

How the hell did you assume that I want Christie to cave in to Dems?? no I don't. He has his own views and that's fine by me. But as far as Republicans go, he seems to be the most reachable to Democrats.

Best of all, this guy has very little vested interests riding on him (at the moment). That's exactly why I admire him.

Edited by Codus N, 02 December 2012 - 06:01 AM.

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#1874 Catwho

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:05 AM

Christie actually cares about his state's future, which is something that is a rare trait in any governor in the US today. Many of them use their governorship as a stepping stone for possible presidential runs. Christie has actually made an effort to, ya know, govern. For that, he deserves commendation.

(Then, poor states like us here in Georgia have frickin' criminals as their governors. Nathan Deal ought to be in jail for real estate fraud right now, but for whatever reason they decided not to pursue the charges.)

In regards to the Jefferson letters versus the Constitution, keep in mind who they were rebelling against. England had a nationalized church with the king as the head of the church body as well as the monarch. If you weren't the "proper" religion during the Tudor period, for example, you were beheaded, and that sort of governmental power over religion is exactly the type of thing they wanted to avoid in their new country. The only way to do that? Create a wall between politics and religion.

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#1875 Nate River

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE (Codus N @ Dec 1 2012, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are assuming things. Just where the hell did you get that idea?? I admire and respect Christie (from what I've read about him) simply because he has his own convictions and is unbending unless he believes the others are right. Christie is by far the most decent Republican I've read about so far, and is not afraid to go against his party's stance if he doesn't believe they're right. He also points out Obama's faults for what they are in the most objective manner I've read so far.

How the hell did you assume that I want Christie to cave in to Dems?? no I don't. He has his own views and that's fine by me. But as far as Republicans go, he seems to be the most reachable to Democrats.

Best of all, this guy has very little vested interests riding on him (at the moment). That's exactly why I admire him.


Vested interest? He's running for reelection with the popular Corey Booker as a possibile opponent in a blue state. I'd say he has a vested interest in his next election.

QUOTE
Christie actually cares about his state's future, which is something that is a rare trait in any governor in the US today. Many of them use their governorship as a stepping stone for possible presidential runs. Christie has actually made an effort to, ya know, govern. For that, he deserves commendation.

(Then, poor states like us here in Georgia have frickin' criminals as their governors. Nathan Deal ought to be in jail for real estate fraud right now, but for whatever reason they decided not to pursue the charges.)

In regards to the Jefferson letters versus the Constitution, keep in mind who they were rebelling against. England had a nationalized church with the king as the head of the church body as well as the monarch. If you weren't the "proper" religion during the Tudor period, for example, you were beheaded, and that sort of governmental power over religion is exactly the type of thing they wanted to avoid in their new country. The only way to do that? Create a wall between politics and religion.


James is right on their origin and the history of that even, I think, suggests that it wasn't really intended as a guiding legal principle. The fact that it took nearly 150 years for it became a meaningful part of case law (I think there was one case in the 1880's that mentioned in passing, but Everson v. Board of Education (1947) was where it began meaning anything), supports that. The history behind the Amendment also suggests the modern interpretation is not what they had in mind (and that would have been done at the backdrop of the history you mention).

Reaslitically, though, the phrase has been constantly invoked in case law since the 1940's and I doubt it will suddenly be dropped. Besides, it more a political talking point than anything. It means less legally than people think it does.

In current case law, it amounts to the fact that "strict scrutiny" will be the legal test under that clause. Even if the Supreme Court started dropping it, I cannot imagine them suddenly abandoning that as the test. Though cases like Wickard v. Fillmore (replacing strict scrunity for rational basis under the commerce clause), Casey v. Planned Parenthood (where they just kinda made up the undue burden test for abortion, replacing strict scrutiny) and Roper v. Simmons ("evoling standards of deceny (whatever the hell that means) test for Cruel and Unusual Punishment) indicate that it would not be unpressedented if they did.

All that I imagine would "change" is how regioursly they applied the test, which really, isn't consistent anyway, so it wouldn't change much from a practical matter.

For example, take the Ten Commandments case from the early 2000's. There were two of them. One said yes, the other said no. They were decided roughly at the same time by the same nine justices (Breyer was of the ones who switched). The facts between the two were very different, but it demostrates the lack of clear answer on the same religous symbol. There was also Allgeny, where a Christmas display was not okay and in the same opinion a Jewish one was. If here weren't dead, it would be an interesting question for Jusice Burger.

Even under current case law, it's not a "wall" and the only solid thing about it is...the test they use and that what you can do except in the most obvious of cases comes down to it depends.

As a borderline Libertarian (I refuse to call myself one as long as Ron Paul is at the helm), I cannot get worked up over governments being unable to erect Christmas displays. However, I remain cynical about those constantly espose "seperation of church and state" because it's usually not...esposed consistently across all religions...and those same people don't seem as gunho in their support of the rest of the Amendment (Free Exercise (see HHS contraception mandate) and Free Speech (Boston and Chicago's response to Chick Fil-A).

QUOTE
I guess what I want to say is if this is what truly people believe, I am sad to say they are going to be disappointed. If this was just a joke by Jamie Foxx, this is a terrible joke to make. Some people thought I was crazy when I said some people view Obama as a God, well here is your proof. He is nothing more than a man. He is not going to wave his hand and make the whole country better over night. Doesn't work like that.


I can't remember the last time, if ever, I cared about what Jamie Foxx thought. Besides, it's not like it's a new phenomenon, which I thought was part of the point of Foxx's joke.

#1876 Codus N

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 3 2012, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Vested interest? He's running for reelection with the popular Corey Booker as a possibile opponent in a blue state. I'd say he has a vested interest in his next election.



James is right on their origin and the history of that even, I think, suggests that it wasn't really intended as a guiding legal principle. The fact that it took nearly 150 years for it became a meaningful part of case law (I think there was one case in the 1880's that mentioned in passing, but Everson v. Board of Education (1947) was where it began meaning anything), supports that. The history behind the Amendment also suggests the modern interpretation is not what they had in mind (and that would have been done at the backdrop of the history you mention).

Reaslitically, though, the phrase has been constantly invoked in case law since the 1940's and I doubt it will suddenly be dropped. Besides, it more a political talking point than anything. It means less legally than people think it does.

In current case law, it amounts to the fact that "strict scrutiny" will be the legal test under that clause. Even if the Supreme Court started dropping it, I cannot imagine them suddenly abandoning that as the test. Though cases like Wickard v. Fillmore (replacing strict scrunity for rational basis under the commerce clause), Casey v. Planned Parenthood (where they just kinda made up the undue burden test for abortion, replacing strict scrutiny) and Roper v. Simmons ("evoling standards of deceny (whatever the hell that means) test for Cruel and Unusual Punishment) indicate that it would not be unpressedented if they did.

All that I imagine would "change" is how regioursly they applied the test, which really, isn't consistent anyway, so it wouldn't change much from a practical matter.

For example, take the Ten Commandments case from the early 2000's. There were two of them. One said yes, the other said no. They were decided roughly at the same time by the same nine justices (Breyer was of the ones who switched). The facts between the two were very different, but it demostrates the lack of clear answer on the same religous symbol. There was also Allgeny, where a Christmas display was not okay and in the same opinion a Jewish one was. If here weren't dead, it would be an interesting question for Jusice Burger.

Even under current case law, it's not a "wall" and the only solid thing about it is...the test they use and that what you can do except in the most obvious of cases comes down to it depends.

As a borderline Libertarian (I refuse to call myself one as long as Ron Paul is at the helm), I cannot get worked up over governments being unable to erect Christmas displays. However, I remain cynical about those constantly espose "seperation of church and state" because it's usually not...esposed consistently across all religions...and those same people don't seem as gunho in their support of the rest of the Amendment (Free Exercise (see HHS contraception mandate) and Free Speech (Boston and Chicago's response to Chick Fil-A).


I meant nationally, not an overarching one. Something along the lines of what Catwho said. If he is planning for a 2016 election, he's being smart about it, that's for sure. Now that I've thought about it, Christie is like the Joker card in the current political situation. He commands a great deal of popularity and whichever side has him on their side, they'll win.

If Obama were to say, convince him of the merits of his ideas, (with a little bit of negotiating from Christie, too) and get him onboard with the rest of his supporters, he'll be able to make the GOP cave in, why?? because the GOP would be stupid to reject Christie with his current popularity. This would make them look so non-partisan compared to Christie. Which will just skyrocket his popularity to no end. Which would also make the current situation at the GOP worse than it is now. The GOP is in dire need of a figurehead, and Christie is their best bet.

On the other hand, if Obama fails, he'll have a hard time bargaining with the GOP, and would stay in the difficult position he's in now. And both sides would just stay frozen in their tracks.

I kind of doubt Obama would extend a hand to Christie, but if it does happen, and he succeeds, his political goals will go a bit smoother.

As for the rest, interesting stuff you said there. Then I ask you this, how would this relate, to say, someone spreading hate speech about a religion?? how can this be applied to, let's say someone calling Hinduists satanists in the name of free speech?? can followers of a religion be protected from any sort of mistreatment and misdemeanor??

Also, I understand about the clause that says; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." and understand why it was made. But it also leaves a hole for specific anti-religious sentiments to flourish. How can a U.S. citizen live in peace if they're often being subjected to racialism based on their religion?? the state has an obligatory duty to make sure each of its' citizens live in harmony and peace as much as possible. What do you say to that??

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#1877 Nate River

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Codus N @ Dec 3 2012, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I meant nationally, not an overarching one. Something along the lines of what Catwho said. If he is planning for a 2016 election, he's being smart about it, that's for sure. Now that I've thought about it, Christie is like the Joker card in the current political situation. He commands a great deal of popularity and whichever side has him on their side, they'll win.


Not really, he still has to earn his party's nomination and right now he's pissed them off. It wasn't so much appearing with Obama as it was the over the top praise given to Obama for what, at the time, was just a photo-op right before the election.

I would say the frontrunner right now is probably Marco Rubio, assuming he's interested in running in 2016.

QUOTE
If Obama were to say, convince him of the merits of his ideas, (with a little bit of negotiating from Christie, too) and get him onboard with the rest of his supporters, he'll be able to make the GOP cave in, why?? because the GOP would be stupid to reject Christie with his current popularity. This would make them look so non-partisan compared to Christie. Which will just skyrocket his popularity to no end. Which would also make the current situation at the GOP worse than it is now. The GOP is in dire need of a figurehead, and Christie is their best bet.

On the other hand, if Obama fails, he'll have a hard time bargaining with the GOP, and would stay in the difficult position he's in now. And both sides would just stay frozen in their tracks.


I disagree Christie is their best bet. For now, I'd agree with the consensus (to the extent there is one) that their best bet is Rubio.

QUOTE
I kind of doubt Obama would extend a hand to Christie, but if it does happen, and he succeeds, his political goals will go a bit smoother.


I can't see that happening given that Corey Booker has some interest in the position and that one of the Democracts biggest donors (labor unions, particularly, public labor unions) despise Christie. And Christie is still, at the end of the day, a Republican and if he has any interest running for the Party nomination he ought to decline. Accepting would only work if he decided to switch parties (and even then ask Arlen Specter how well that worked out)

QUOTE
As for the rest, interesting stuff you said there. Then I ask you this, how would this relate, to say, someone spreading hate speech about a religion?? how can this be applied to, let's say someone calling Hinduists satanists in the name of free speech?? can followers of a religion be protected from any sort of mistreatment and misdemeanor??

Also, I understand about the clause that says; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." and understand why it was made. But it also leaves a hole for specific anti-religious sentiments to flourish. How can a U.S. citizen live in peace if they're often being subjected to racialism based on their religion?? the state has an obligatory duty to make sure each of its' citizens live in harmony and peace as much as possible. What do you say to that??


I have a length response in mind, but let me clarify something first: What do you define as racialism?




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