54175 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Sometimes I wonder is that what really happened where he just fell out of love with his hero, or was he never that much interested in his hero to begin with?

I don't know, but when I think back to early Naruto, I feel like in certain moments it's more about someone else than him. Or about something else. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but right now I recall more focus and more detailed put into other characters, their backstory, their desires, their growth. And I can't say it turned into Sasuke's story. More like the Uchiha story. I feel like both Naruto and Sasuke were just spectators and not participants to the Uchiha storyline. They just happen to be the end of it. More like conduits.

 

I get what you mean, Nostradamus. We also see how Naruto tended to get treated as a joke except when he wasn't, and it just shows how he just got screwed over big time. Even Studio Pierrot with the way they treated Naruto in filler arcs and movies tells you all you need to know. One of the few times being "Road to Ninja", and that I can probably chalk up to Kishimoto writing it and trying to convey the ideas behind it of Naruto and Sakura getting to understand each other in a much deepder way.

 

Why couldn't a balance have been made? Why not also just do some separate stuff regarding Sasuke and the Uchiha? I mean, it feels like Sasuke had more going for him than our hero and the name of the series was all about! Even in Dragon Ball, during Dragon Ball Z, Goku wasn't that spat on, even when he was dead for much of the Buu saga before his brief return, and then Old Kai sacrificing himself to allow Goku to come back to life in the climax of the series!

[Dalton.T.R]

I remember reading a long time ago that the manga was supposed to end after the Pein fight. No idea if that's true or not, but I could definitely see it being the case because the story just went downhill from there. As a writer, I can confirm what Tricksie is saying. If characters don't have much depth to them, and most Naruto characters had the depth of a puddle at best, there's no way for the author to explore with side characters and such. When you get bored with writing one certain character, it's best to shift focus onto another character and give them more detail. You could say the main character is off on a training mission somewhere or taking vacation, which would allow the writer to give more flavor to another character of their choosing.

 

 

 

Keeping tabs on characters is not always easy, which is why it's best to keep your cast to the absolute minimum that you need. Kishimoto arguably made too many characters and never really explored with them as much as he should have. Why not focus on Team 8 or 9 while Team 7 is training or something? Kishimoto's biggest flaw as a writer, to my mind, was the constant flashbacks. If you have to explain how close two or three characters were in a bunch of flashbacks, you haven't invested enough time in those characters.

 

 

 

For example, the first fight between Naruto and Sasuke relied HEAVILY on flashbacks to at least make the viewer feel some sort of emotion. A good writer who had invested enough time into his characters wouldn't have to do that. If two former best friends get into a fight to the death it should be a tense and heartbreaking moment without having to throw flashback after flashback at the reader/viewer. Kishimoto COULD have made the breakup of Team 7 much harder to watch had he just invested more time into the characters. Hell, at the time we barely knew anything about Sakura! We didn't know anything about her clan, her family, her relatives, or anything along those lines. We knew enough to know she wasn't an orphan like Naruto, but we never saw anything from her parents until the series was about to end! All Kishimoto had to do was just say her parents were average fold and she was the first to enlist into the academy and become a ninja. But no. We knew basically nothing about the lead female character of the damn series for nearly two decades. I mean, that path alone would generate some interesting things to throw Sakura's way. What was her motivation for becoming a ninja? What was she hoping to gain or prove? What were her long-term goals?

 

 

 

As far as I remember, the only character who had any real depth to him was Sasuke. You saw what he had to deal with and why he was the way he was. Naruto in the beginning didn't really need too much explanation. He was an orphan that nobody liked because of the 9-tailed fox... and him being a loud-mouthed brat probably didn't help his cause any, either.  But Sakura was just...there.

 

 

 

So, I personally think Kishimoto grew bored with the story because there wasn't really anything more to add. The Pein fight would have been a decent enough ending. Naruto finally got the girl he wanted and all he had to do was just go out and fight Sasuke one last time, potentially with the help of most surviving ninjas at the time.

Edited by Dalton.T.R, 10 February 2022 - 09:25 PM.

[Moon_Girl]

Honestly, I do think Kishimoto fell 'out of love' with his main character and was more inspired by writing for his morally grey anti-hero.

 

It totally happens. Authors botch their own stories all the time. Especially in a series. They lose the thread of where they were going, get bored, then start writing towards a different ending than the one they started out with. 

 

You can tell it happened in Naruto because there were no more true story arcs after a point in time. Just conflict and resolution.

 

And the final bit of damning evidence? That the ending of the whole Naruto manga was from Sasuke's point of view. The one character who spent the entire time trying to get away from Naruto. He has nothing to contribute, because he had nothing to do with their stories. At all. 

 

But in Kishimoto's head, Sasuke is the hero. So why hear from Naruto about what happened in his life?

 

If Kishi wanted a neutral narrator, Kakashi would have been the best choice.

 

Imagine if the Harry Potter series turned into Draco's power ups and backstories about the whole Malfoy family, then Voldemort turns out to be just another ancient Malfoy....and then finally after the Battle of Hogwarts and the series has come to a close, the epilogue was told from Draco's point of view? For no other reason than the author just wanted a little more Draco Malfoy before it ended?

 

That's what happened in Naruto. And when you apply the same scenario to any other story or movie, it becomes crystal clear that the creator fell out of love with his hero and sold out his original story. 

Honestly, I feel like Kishimoto's original editor was the real MVP keeping the story together. I could be remembering this wrong, but didn't his editor (apparently the one he had since the beginning of the series and helped him out a ton) retire around the Pain Arc and that's also when the story started falling flat? If that's all true, I feel like that may have played a much bigger role than we thought. Especially since his new editors were huge Hinata fans and pushed for her.

[TheFirstEvil100]

And this is why Ill stick with Tolkien as the greatest writer of all time dude created his own languages myths family tree lines and much more.

He knew how to do villains and how to make them sympathetic like Gollum.

[Chatte]

Honestly, I feel like Kishimoto's original editor was the real MVP keeping the story together. I could be remembering this wrong, but didn't his editor (apparently the one he had since the beginning of the series and helped him out a ton) retire around the Pain Arc and that's also when the story started falling flat? If that's all true, I feel like that may have played a much bigger role than we thought. Especially since his new editors were huge Hinata fans and pushed for her.

 

Yup that's Yahagi. I think that Yahagi's management with Kishi's creativity is what works best. It was the perfect combination.

 

Kishi isn't TOTALLY bad as a writer. He's just... how should I say? Needed guidance because he tends to goo TOO MUCH into one direction. Starts obsessing about it.

 

I look at this from an astrology POV (I know, weird, but hear me out).

 

He's a Scorpio. Scorpios can become very obsessed with a single subject and go so deep into it that they don't get out of there unless pulled out.

 

That's EXACTLY what happened to Kishimoto with Sasuke.

 

He went really deep into Sasuke's storyline. Scorpios are all about going into the deep waters of the psyche and study it, get to know most perspectives from different angles so on and so forth.

 

That's EXACTLY what Kishimoto did with Sasuke.

 

The issue is is that it's at the cost of the rest of the cast.

 

Not to mention that the Scorpio stereotype is the dark, broody one. 

 

Remember how Sasuke is?

 

I feel that at the end of the day, he ended-up identifying more with Sasuke than Naruto. And you know why?

 

Probably because of the fact that he realized that the industry he so much wished to work in, wasn't like he viewed it when he first wanted to break in.

 

In the beginning he was the dreamy type of guy who dreamed to tell the greatest story ever told which can be transposed into Naruto's ideal.

 

So that's why back then Naruto was focused on more. Because Kishimot identified with him better than with Sasuke.

 

However as years went by and the pressure of fame grew on him and they started to pressure him more and more to do one or the other, he started identifying more with Sasuke, thus that's why his focused changed on him.

 

Sadly Sakura like always got left out... But I think it's because you can clearly see that the story mechanics changed as well.

 

In the beginning the story was built on the triad concept - teams of 3 ppl, 3 tomoe sharingan, 3 sage modes, 3 masters for the trio and yadda yadda yadda.

 

But then it slowly swept into the dual concept and thus it all became about Naruto and Sasuke, until it ended in Sasuke only, sadly.

 

Which ironically also coincides with Yahagi's involvement.

 

That's why I say the genius behind it all is Yahagi. 

 

Kishi had the creative potential, but needed someone to optimize that. 

 

That was Yahagi.

 

After Yahagi left, Kishi's creative potential went chaotic. 

 

Because in essence, creativity is chaos.

 

That's why there's the Yin and Yang. The creative Yang who burst the energy and brings life into things, but the organizing Yin which gives a proper shape and order to it all. 

 

Kishi lost the Yin to his Yang, sadly.

Edited by Chatte, 16 February 2022 - 09:48 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
Yup that's Yahagi. I think that Yahagi's management with Kishi's creativity is what works best. It was the perfect combination.
 
Kishi isn't TOTALLY bad as a writer. He's just... how should I say? Needed guidance because he tends to goo TOO MUCH into one direction. Starts obsessing about it.
 
I look at this from an astrology POV (I know, weird, but hear me out).
 
He's a Scorpio. Scorpios can become very obsessed with a single subject and go so deep into it that they don't get out of there unless pulled out.
 
That's EXACTLY what happened to Kishimoto with Sasuke.
 
He went really deep into Sasuke's storyline. Scorpios are all about going into the deep waters of the psyche and study it, get to know most perspectives from different angles so on and so forth.
 
That's EXACTLY what Kishimoto did with Sasuke.
 
The issue is is that it's at the cost of the rest of the cast.
 
Not to mention that the Scorpio stereotype is the dark, broody one. 
 
Remember how Sasuke is?
 
I feel that at the end of the day, he ended-up identifying more with Sasuke than Naruto. And you know why?
 
Probably because of the fact that he realized that the industry he so much wished to work in, wasn't like he viewed it when he first wanted to break in.
 
In the beginning he was the dreamy type of guy who dreamed to tell the greatest story ever told which can be transposed into Naruto's ideal.
 
So that's why back then Naruto was focused on more. Because Kishimot identified with him better than with Sasuke.
 
However as years went by and the pressure of fame grew on him and they started to pressure him more and more to do one or the other, he started identifying more with Sasuke, thus that's why his focused changed on him.
 
Sadly Sakura like always got left out... But I think it's because you can clearly see that the story mechanics changed as well.
 
In the beginning the story was built on the triad concept - teams of 3 ppl, 3 tomoe sharingan, 3 sage modes, 3 masters for the trio and yadda yadda yadda.
 
But then it slowly swept into the dual concept and thus it all became about Naruto and Sasuke, until it ended in Sasuke only, sadly.
 
Which ironically also coincides with Yahagi's involvement.
 
That's why I say the genius behind it all is Yahagi. 
 
Kishi had the creative potential, but needed someone to optimize that. 
 
That was Yahagi.
 
After Yahagi left, Kishi's creative potential went chaotic. 
 
Because in essence, creativity is chaos.
 
That's why there's the Yin and Yang. The creative Yang who burst the energy and brings life into things, but the organizing Yin which gives a proper shape and order to it all. 
 
Kishi lost the Yin to his Yang, sadly.

Funny thing is, I am a Scorpio myself and while I can obsess on subjects, I can move past them, though I sometimes have issues when my creativity goes into overdrive. But its always different strokes for different blokes.

[Chatte]

Funny thing is, I am a Scorpio myself and while I can obsess on subjects, I can move past them, though I sometimes have issues when my creativity goes into overdrive. But its always different strokes for different blokes.

 

Oh absolutely! I am talking in general terms here. But we're not just our sun sign. We're the whole astral map and it all depends on how planets are arranged in the houses of the zodiac and what aspects they form with the other signs/planets in there.

 

Astrology is much deeper than what they let you see in the media.

 

Usually the media just handles the horoscopes which is the general movement of the planets in the sky so then that's what they report.

 

But each person is unique in their own way because we each have a different energetic matrix at the moment we're born :)

 

No two people born in the same day can be the same.

 

Hell, not even twins are.

Edited by Chatte, 17 February 2022 - 01:10 AM.

[RidiculouslyBored]

Been a while since I've been on here lol but I'm always down for a "Yahagi was the real MVP" party lol.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Been a while since I've been on here lol but I'm always down for a "Yahagi was the real MVP" party lol.

 

I'd say all of us here are, RB.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

 

Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

[Derock]

 

Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

 

When I first starting getting into the series, even when watching the anime first came out in 2005 on Cartoon Network, yes. Never in my mind that 10 years later, that it would bite all of us in the ass because certain people were all over "unimportant".

[RedFaction]

 
Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

I didn't right away. I got into Naruto around 2011 and didn't ship it until 2013 when I was getting into Shippuden and did all the way until the end.

Then all we got in the end was Naruto seeing her as "muh trophy girlfriend" to win over Sasuke, which kind of destroyed them as a couple or as even friends in my opinion.

I still cannot look at them the same way as I used to.

[ThroughWithLove]

I was hooked the moment Naruto had an internal realization about finally knowing why he liked Sakura right as he was about to kiss her (while disguised as Sasuke). That to me pushed it beyond the level of a petty crush and to the level of something a good writer would expound and deliver upon in the future!

[sushi.]

When Jiraiya died, his last words were about not being able to save Oro(Sasuke), failing to protect, and failing to win Tsunade's heart(Sakura). I took that as saving Sasuke, becoming Hokage and winning Sakura's heart were all narrative goals. The hero was meant to succeed w/ all three. Thus I supported all three.

[Dalton.T.R]

Ironically, as much as I hated the fillers, it was a NS moment in the filler episodes when Naruto, Sakura and Jiraiya went to Orochimaru's hideout that sold me as the couple to support. At the time I didn't know it was filler, or what filler even was. But the moment when Sakura saw Naruto get stabbed in the back by a three-headed creature was what did it for me. 

[RandomGuy]

 
Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

I was initially SS during part one of Naruto. Being around Naruto's age group, 11-12 years of age at the time, I didn't put too much stock into ships. I focused on the fight scenes and the World of Naruto. Later, once Shippuden finally began, I started to gravitate towards NS, and I just thought it natural because Sasuke is not around to build his relationship with Naruto/Sakura. Right after the Kazekage Rescue Mission, I really started getting into the NS. Sakura and Naruto were the only ones to have a common goal and shared experiences, plus Yamato and Sai subtly revealed to the readers that Sakura hadn't realized what Naruto truly meant to her. Not to mention, during the Tenchi Bridge Reconnaissance Mission, when Sakura and Sasuke finally met, she was on the attack, getting ready to punch his lights out. Like no crying, no second-guessing. Anyway, Naruto had so much potential during that time.

[Phantom_999]

 

Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

 

I shipped it the moment I saw it, yes. Even all the way back then, I was hoping that no matter how badly Sakura thought of Naruto, I thought that he would prove her wrong about him and her feelings would change. I'll be honest I thought that their dynamic reminded me of Inuyasha and Kagome although in this case it was one sided, since Inuyasha was my first major Shonen anime before Naruto. Let's be honest, Inuyasha and Kagome did not fall instantly in love at first sight either and were in fact constantly at each other's throats (verbally), and to this day still argue in fact, but they sorted and realized their feelings eventually. not to mention Naruto was the underdog here so proving others wrong including his love interest, AND PROVING HIMSELF especially, was the point. Haters of Sakura's first impressions were being over dramatic, there's no two ways about it

 

P.S. Oh, AND LET'S NOT FORGET ABOUT ASH AND MISTY. 

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 February 2022 - 06:49 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

Did anyone ship NS the first time we seen Sakura?   I didn't get into Naruto until 2010 and even before then I thought NS would be endgame.

Read/watch any shounen story and she is clearly the default love interest. Add in that the story was a boy trying to achieve his dreams, and it just make that more the case.

 

As she was the default as long is the story does the most basic romantic elements -like what most shounen pairings do since they care more about fights than romance- then the story is fine. However, if they want to change the love interest then more effort has to be put in because they are doing something that is not the standard and have to do more to flow for people that enjoy the genre.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 22 February 2022 - 08:26 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I was hooked the moment Naruto had an internal realization about finally knowing why he liked Sakura right as he was about to kiss her (while disguised as Sasuke). That to me pushed it beyond the level of a petty crush and to the level of something a good writer would expound and deliver upon in the future!

I know that for me, I didn't get there when I first read Naruto, but I saw it and it made my heart melt, though the firstsign I saw NaruSaku obviously was meant to be endgame was in the Land of Waves arc and how Sakura was in awe at Naruto's courage to charge Zabuza to get his headband back after Zabuza stomped on it.

[Luna]

I don't really ship pokemon couples anymore...I mean the characters are basically minors at this point and its weird to me. I think Pokemon missed an opportunity to make Ash a teen in Pokemon Journeys. He could have been a mentor to Go which would give the series a new life span.

 

I just know redemption will come in the future though. A lot of people are still wondering WHY Naruto and Sakura didn't end up together and you will find a lot of people questioning it as time goes by. In the words of Katy Perry, "Time is the ultimate truth teller". I don't even want a remake for the series cause I'm not going to invest my time into just to see NS happen when it could have happened the first time. I just want the truth to come out at this point and prove that Kishimoto and the studio are dirty liars. 

Edited by Luna, 22 February 2022 - 08:23 PM.