22 replies to this topic

[ryu2301]

I am just plain confused on one honorific really; the "kun" honorific. I've heard so many different meanings for it that I don't know which to believe anymore! If anyone could reply with the exact uses of it I'd be very grateful!

[desaix]

It is an extremely respectful form of address to an equal or very slightly socially superior person. Often, it is used by women to address men of a socially equal position, but can be used by men when talking to women, men talking to men, and women talking to women. It is one of the few forms of address which is considered an OPTIONAL and almost always familiar formality. It can be used interchangably with the 'san' honorific, as long as you are consistent with the individual. Two people rarely address each other as 'kun,' however, no matter how respectful they are of each other. 'Kun' has also replaced the obsolescent 'dono' in formal meetings between equals of high status that are not part of the Imperial bloodline. (In other words, the head of Sony and the head of Samsung would call each other 'kun.' However, a member of the Royal Family would still call another member of the Royal Family 'Dono' in the same social situation)

Examples which cause confusion:
Ranma, from Ranma 1/2, is called 'Ranma-chan' when female, and sometimes is called 'Ranma-kun' when male. Some people have been under the impression this was because 'chan' was exclusively female and 'kun' exclusively male, but this is not so. Rather, it is because Ranma, as a female, is in a diminutive form from his normal state. 'Chan' is an honorific given to those who are younger, diminutive (small, usually), and 'cute.' Women often call their boyfriends and each other 'chan.' Boys often call their girlfriends and any younger girl 'chan.'

Examples which point to proper usage:
In Kimagure Orange Road, Kyousuke often calls Madoka 'Ayukawa-kun' and Hikaru 'Hikaru-chan.' Hikaru would call Yuusuke 'Yuusuke-san' or occasionally 'Yuu-kun.' Madoka would call Kasuge Kyousuke 'Kasuga-san.' The Kun that Kyousuke uses with Madoka implies that he greatly honors her, despite being her equal, and is familiar with her. The 'san' she uses in reply does not mean that she honors him less or is less familiar with him, but rather that he used it first. Kyousuke's use of 'Hikaru-chan' has nothing to do with affection (although others might assume so, which is partly why everyone assumes the two of them are dating, which further encourages Hikaru's attentions) but rather because she is a younger familiar female. Hikaru's use of 'Yuu-kun' implies familiarity, but in this case the 'honor' is solely because he is a familiar male while she is a female of otherwise equal rank -- the abbreviation of his name negates the extra honor. She is actually being more polite to him calling him 'Yuusuke-san,' but 'Yuu-kun' is not an insult any more then a girl calling her boyfriend 'chan' would be -- rather, it is a 'burriko' (the term for the sickeningly cute behavior that many Japanese men are attracted to -- examples that won't necessarily sicken you include Yuriko in You're Under Arrest, Keiko in Full Metal Panic, and... well, I'm not sure of any others. Most other anime examples include Hikaru-chan from KOR, Asuza Shirunai from Ranma, and C-ko from Project A-ko) characteristic. Not exclusive to 'burriko' girls, mind, but a common form of address.

Yes, it's incredibly complex. Trust me, I've been studying it for about a decade, now (as long as I've been into anime), and I've had native Japanese to talk to about it (my half-Japanese half-brother's half-brothers... which means I have no relation to them, but I call them my 'quasi-brothers' just to annoy them), and even I occasionally find new things out about when certain forms of address are appropriate or not.

[PeacefulPhoenix]

O_____O dear lord, i have a lot to learn!

[ryu2301]

ah, thanks desaix! the thing that got me really confused was when my beta reader told me that having naruto use the kun honorific with sasuke's name would be along the lines of making him queer. I see I have a hell of a lot to learn yet.

[desaix]

Your beta reader was very wrong. Don't be afraid to have Naruto call Sasuke 'Sasuke-kun.'

[ryu2301]

Ah! Thanks man, though I will probably go ahead with Naruto using sasuke-teme instead of sasuke-kun; it sounds so much funnier!

[SweetestChick]

Good thing I checked out this thread. I wasn't sure about the whole -chan and -kun thing either. I'm still an amateur with the Japanese language and all.

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

good thing i read this thing...

[Soritia]

Ah! Thanks man, though I will probably go ahead with Naruto using sasuke-teme instead of sasuke-kun; it sounds so much funnier!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good choice.
While Naruto could call Sasuke "-kun", it would be really out of character to do so. A. Because he knows him so well ("-kun" is slightly formal) and B. Naruto doesn't think of him in that way. ("-kun" alludes to a certain level of respect)
I could only see Naruto using -kun on Sasuke if he was making fun of him.

[Aoitsuki]

I've also got a problem with one honorific. What the heck does "-dono" mean? I know it means lord or something similar but what's the difference between "-dono" and "-sama"?

[desaix]

-dono is an obsolescent term, used in very special situations usually involving members of the royal family or major government leaders of the same rank.

In the past, it also used to take the place of -sama whenever a normal person was talking to a member of the royalty or nobility. The end of an official Japanese nobility has largely eliminated its usage, however. I imagine 'dono' is used in Naruto with a bit more frequency, though, because other obsolescent forms of address (Sakura calling Tsunade Tsunade-shishou) still exist, as well.

[ryu2301]

damn, japanese really is confusing! i hope i actually get a chance to learn the language someday.

[Toa]

Wow, I learned to so much here from Desaix! You sure know much much more tha I do! I've been studying japanese for more than a year already...self-studying of course!

[desaix]

Jeri-chan, you may actually know more Japanese then I do, as I haven't really had enough study of the language itself to qualify. I had easy access to some Japanese native-speakers in order to understand the usage at one time, however, and one of the things I asked about was honorifics. I still learn new things about honorifics, myself (I never even knew about the existance of -shishou until it showed up in Naruto), but I've researched it for years.

[Illjwamh]

Are you sure about your -kun description, desaix? Because all the reasearch I've done, both independently and as a natural part of learning the language, indicates it's the other way around. -kun is a suffix used (generally by males) toward those of equal or lesser status, while still offering a tone of respect. In other words, if someone is socially beneath you, you can still show respect for them by using -kun after their name. Using it to a superior would be insulting, as it would imply you felt equal to them.

The familiarity aspect is of course true. It's the reason why so many girls have adopted it as a way to refer to their boyfriends/boys they like.

[desaix]

-kun is an evolving suffix, and I think that used to be true, but I'm not so sure it is now. I know I've heard it used to refer to slight superiors in social status in at least three seperate works (in Naruto, where several people refer to Sasuke as -kun (most notably Sakura, but others as well) because, while he is a social equal in terms of rank (or even an inferior, for those of chuunin or jounin status), he belongs to a higher clan then anyone else save possibly the Hyuuga. Also, in Kimagure Orange Road, where Kyousuke is referring to Madoka by 'Ayukawa-kun' all the time, and Ayukawa -- despite being considered a 'delinquent' by some in her school -- is (according to my quasi-brothers) a half-step higher, socially, than he is. Also (again according to my quasi-brothers) Kasumi is heard referring to Ranma as 'Ranma-kun' because he is considered socially an equal, usually, but is a familiar and is also to be 'honored' as a guest -- these are the specific pieces of information I am basing 'superior' on). I think it might be more for equals then anything -- any situation in which you can use -san, you can also use -kun (meaning slightly superior, slightly inferior, or equal), but -kun is more familiar, and from the examples of usage I've seen it has always been used from slight inferior to slight superior.

[Illjwamh]

To be honest, I wouldn't count anime as a completely reliable source on Japanese.

In Naruto, the people who refer to Sasuke with -kun are doing so because of his rank (Kakashi, etc), or because they want to endear themselves to him, or think they already have (Sakura, Ino, etc.).

This is true in real life too, as many teachers will refer to their male students with -kun. You'll notice everyone who uses it for Sasuke also uses it for Naruto (with the exception of Sakura and Ino). Truthfully, though he may have come from a higher clan, he had no standing in it yet, and it doesn't even exist anymore, so that wouldn't enter into it at all.


In Ranma, Kasumi uses it because she's polite, and Ranma's her guest. She uses it because he's younger than her, so therefore stands slightly lower, but still deserves respect, and because she's familiar with him. If she didn't know him very well or at all, she'd probably call him "Ranma-san", or evern "Saotome-san".

I haven't seen KOR yet, so I can't comment on that one.

[desaix]

I wouldn't either for formal Japanese. However, -kun isn't usually a part of formal Japanese -- it's semi-formal to semi-casual (whereas fully casual would include no honorific at all). And one thing I've learned for certain is that there isn't a single textbook around that's any good for more then a smattering of semi-casual Japanese -- the books on formal Japanese don't mention it, and the books on casual or semi-casual Japanese are either frequently wrong, decades out of date, or only right in certain circumstances.

But I'm NOT using anime as a SOURCE, exactly, but rather as an example to confirm a source I cannot present. My sources are native Japanese speakers (my half-Japanese half-brother's wholly Japanese half-brothers, aka my quasi-brothers), who I've been asking questions like this about for almost ten years now, but since I can't put you in touch with them directly I'm pulling anime-based examples to show where the usage matches what they've told me.

I can see what you're saying with regards to Sasuke, but I don't see it as exactly countering my point. I admit, I didn't know about -kun being used by teachers to their students, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I think I'll call this one a wash.

As far as Ranma goes... age is only one factor in determining where someone 'stands.' Ranma is the firstborn son of a family of equal stature as Kasumi's (whereas Kasumi is the firstborn daughter), and is a male -- therefore, he should be equal to Kasumi socially (the fact that he is a male overcoming the fact that he's a few years younger in Japan's patriarchal society). However, he is a familiar and a guest, so he deserves a slightly higher honor.

In KOR, the male lead character (Kasuga Kyousuke) actually has a monologue where he says he is referring to the female lead character (Ayukawa Madoka) by 'Ayukawa-kun' because he feels that, even though they are both junior high school students (and therefore technically equals, although she comes from a higher class family), she always seems so much more mature then he feels. (Edit: I pulled the DVDs out of storage and rewatched that scene, specifically. It's technically possible, I suppose, that he was referring to the fact that he was using her family name rather then which honorific he was using. However, it could also be referring to the -kun, and it seems to me to make more sense if he was referring to both parts of the name (both the family name and the honorific) then just if he was referring to calling her by her family name. At any rate, I don't see it as possible he could be using the -kun because she was socially inferior in any way)

Again, I am not citing the anime as a source, precisely, but rather as evidence that my sources are correct.

[DazeDreamer]

umm...Arigato Desaix-kun I think... Cuz I thought that 1st: -kun was for guys and -chan was for girls. Then 2nd: -kun was for ppl who you're close to. (Like a best friend or something like that) and -san was for ppl you were semi close to. Then 3rd in my english-japanese/japanese-english dictionary (trying to learn Japanese here in America) it said that -kun was for Mr.,Mrs.Ms.. Now Desaix-kun is saying that -kun is a repective term. Gah too confusing!!!!!!!! So now I'm really confused. Which is it? ( And explain about the 2nd and 3rd findings I found.)

[Illjwamh]

Saying it's for Mr./Mrs. is a very rough translation. There's really no English equivalent, so they picked the closest thing.

As for people you're close to, that's a fairly accurate description most of the time.

As for desaix's last example, it occurs to me that you can use -kun for people you look up to, even if they're not technically higher than you. Generally when a girl/woman is referred to with -kun, there's some subtle deeper meaning in there somewhere on the part of the speaker, though it's hard to always pinpoint what that is. Case in point, and breaking my own advice by resorting to anime for an example, nearly everyone in Fruits Basket refers to Tohru as "Tohru-kun", yet there's no real reason for this. They just do.