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#27141 KClaws_2

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 10:56 AM

Wait wait wait....so, let me get this straight.
Kishimoto can't write women correctly, has no idea what happens to the tailed beasts, has no clue why Sasuke and Sakura a couple, couldn't figure out how to have Madara be defeated, and is now saying that he has trouble writing the Pain Arc cause he had no idea how he wanted to end it.....BUT we are told to believe that Naruto and Hinata was decided even before the manga ever started being written and that NS being a red herring was all on purpose and planned?


I can't even anymore. The only thing that is believably true about Naruto planning is Kishimoto purposely made Sasuke and Naruto have a rivalry that would last the entire manga until the end. Everything else clearly shows that he either had no idea what he was doing or someone else made a decision for him.

I'm done. I don't get why the American fanbase stills thinks all of the NH stuff was on purpose meanwhile everything else Kishimoto didn't have a clue.

 

 

After that Kobiyashi interview, that came more of a blow to me than the ending. Discovering just how little of the story was his idea really shook me, it felt like he was just the artist and the editors, for better or for worse, were the real writers. 

 

I don't want to call Kishimoto dumb or something worse, but it's genuinely scary how devoid the actual Naruto is of his own ideas, and how haphazard the planning process was. 

 

It also explains why we've heard diddly-squat from his new sci-fi manga. I recall shortly after Naruto ended, the web said what's next for Kishimoto was a sci-fi manga. I can't say I was looking forward to it, but I was at least intrigued. To this day, not a word of it. It's always coming back to Naruto and Boruto. I genuinely believe he met with a bunch of editors, turned in his ideas, and they're running away in fear after realizing he's not the author they thought he was. While the actual writer of the Boruto manga says otherwise, I've a feeling he's taking cues from Kishimoto on some elements of his sci-fi story he wanted to make. 

 

It's also funny how HIro Mishima, after finishing Fairy Tail, also announced a sci-fi story. About a year and a half later, we not only got that, but several Fairy Tail spin-offs as well. It seriously makes me question what's been happening with Kishimoto behind the scenes.

 

You're right — there's nothing at all wrong with it. Staying home to raise other humans is its own job! lol

 

In fact, I completely support that for real life moms and dads as well as fictional ones, as long as that's their choice. But in the case with Naruto, it feels like the characters gave up so much of their motivation to become mothers, without a single word or foreshadowing that they may one day return to the other professions they worked so hard on. This is their fate, as written by Kishimoto, and they have to be happy with it. Despite the fact that the female characters never once indicated they wanted to give up everything they worked for over the last 500+ chapters to stay home and be homemakers...uh, and at age 22. 

 

But the fate of women in Naruto is murky at best. Even way back in the series Kurama is seen as sidelined, never to regain her pre-baby power. And she's told by her father that women carry on the family roles, etc., or something. I get it that there's a lot of Japanese culture in these choices — it's a huuuuuge problem that women are expected to leave the workforce to have a child and that it's uncommon for men to share a household role in cooking, cleaning — and I get that Kishimoto was writing to that cultural norm. 

 

But Naruto is not present day Japan. And having to watch as Kishimoto destroys his characters with some preachy get-back-to-traditional-roles undertone to his ending is just a slap in the face to all his readers.

 

Being a homemaker is fine. But it's not the ending that Hinata or Sakura were headed to. And to end it that way goes completely against the whole universe. Here's why:

 

1. Hinata's role as clan leader came at the cost every other Hyuuga's power — Her role in the series was to overcome obstacles to take the helm of her clan. Neji's power was docked to let Hinata move ahead, as was every other man and woman in their clan who showed any prowess or skill greater than hers. In fact, you could probably argue that Neji ended up dying because of it. How much farther could he have gone without the cage seal? Could he have saved himself? Maybe. All we know is that him and all the other Hyuuga family members operate at half power...just for their Hinata-sama. 

 

Hinata gives it all up to become a wife only. No longer a nin. No longer clan head. She threw away the sacrifice of every other member of her clan. This is why she should not be a homemaker. Not because there's something wrong with it, but because she already accepted the bargain that everybody else is held back so she can move ahead. The ending is completely at odds with her whole purpose in the story.

 

2. Women retiring at age 20-25 to have kids would cause a massive power vacuum in Konoha. — Seriously. This is a fighting manga set in feudal Japan-style universe. Where is the apprentice to the third sage (who is a sage-level nin and top medic in her own right)? Eh, she went off to dust the Uchiha curios. Where is the head of the most powerful clan in Konoha? Eh, she went home to knit sweaters. Where is the inheritor or the mind-control jutsu? Eh, she went home to run her family's flower shop. 

 

Yeah...I'm thinking that Konoha would be wiped off the map within a year by other villages that DON'T require their most skilled nins to retire after childbirth.

 

I 100% support women and men staying home to care for children. But in this series it is just so out of place. It says more about Kishi's backwards views than it does about what was happening in his own series. But, as we all know now, apparently he wasn't reading his own manga. 

You make a good point I haven't thought of before. Yes, in Japanese culture it is still very much the norm for women to stay at home and raise the children while the men work and support them, but in the long run it wouldn't make sense in the Naruto world. These are villages made up of NINJA. which would require everyone on reserve and in top physical condition. What's more, real-life ninja villages existed outside of the national economy, so they pretty much needed EVERYONE to work. Naruto's ninja villages should also function the same way. In addition to the standard kunoichi, Konoha's big three females (Sakura, Ino, and HInata) each had unique abilites. No military leader in their right mind would just let these once in a generation practitioners go. We're also talking about a world where children are sent out to battle before they even become teenagers, sometimes even younger. So what's the point of the women staying in the kitchen then?

I remember WAY in the beginning of Naruto, Iruka mentioned his PARENTS died fighting the Kyuubi. Granted, it was vague exactly HOW that went down, but unless Iruka was the adopted son of a gay couple, his MOTHER AND FATHER went to fight the Kyuubi.

Even in Boruto, Sakura still has her medic skills, and her strength, so she's been practicing at least and even had time to teach Sarada. So there really is no excuse for her to be off the field, especially when it seems Sasuke isn't paying the bills. 

 

Yeah, kishimoto is a complete phony. He also thought drawing sakura pretty might help her grow into popularity, Making a dog human hokage, tried to make sai likable but failed and made him bland, and tryed to write things to gain more popoularity rather than just telling a good quality story.

 

So in short kishimoto is like a self insert of naruto, Both are selfish, only cares about gaining acknowledgement, childish, and is pretty dumb in a not good way.  

Kishimoto seemed to think of everything only on a superficial level. He brought in the theme of peace in Naruto not because these were ideas he himself believed in, but because he thought the tropes of shonen demanded it. All of Naruto's major enemies have been foils of himself, because Kishimoto thought if that archetype worked before, it should always. He decided to focus on making Sakura prettier instead of a badass because he thinks looks are the only things readers care about...and because a 4 year old girl said she wouldn't look up to her. He stuck with Sai's Sheldon-esque personality because he thought no one would care to see actual character development. 

Now, I know all writers have to do things to keep if not increase the popularity of their franchise, but there has to be an intrinsic desire to tell a good story behind it, and Kishimoto showed none of that. He just wanted a story to make him money. 



#27142 Namaenash

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 03:53 PM

I view all of these post-mortem as nothing but casualties caused by business decision errors.

 

Kishimoto can say whatever he wants after the fact. That won't change what has been written in his manga. The more he speak, the more we know there's hardly any planning, and there's nothing philosophically deeper in the content than what was drawn. The readers thought too much about it, lol... For me personally, the more I realized that I gave too much credits to him and how much I overrated him. I'm not sure if he's being humble, but again, I should've realized long time ago that Kishi is no Arakawa. When he said he cannot write romance, that was to be taken as it is, literally.

 

God knows what is his actual motive with the interviews, though I reckon these interviews as nothing but attempts to seek attention. We all know that the latest volume of Boruto sold under 100k in its first week, albeit heavy advertising and all. As a benchmark, Naruto manga sold in the scale of ~2 million in its first week during its heyday. In 15 years of its original run, it has sold 220 million. That's quite a feat. You'll notice that a lot of Naruto apologists keep saying that it's in top 10 blabla, it's still profitable, blabla.... yeah right.... the one reason it's falling behind other series is the arrogance of the current producer that think about it as big.

 

Looking at the trends, it's steadily declining --which is not surprising. We predicted this since November 2014 (judging how the last volume and the gaiden's reception on the market). It won't get cancelled for sure, but based on the trends, I'm quite sure it won't be as successful as it was before the ending. Kishi knows this. Hence, I'd think that's the reason he opt not to continue authoring Naruto. No point beating the dead horse.

 

Whether the decision to end Naruto as per current plot was triggered by greed or by favorability (i.e. false assumption NH/SS contributes more financially), Kishi/SP/WSJ cannot undo what has been done: NS fans and the fans that read the manga based on a good story telling quality have moved on.

 

Will putting back Kishimoto as the author fix the situation? Who knows, but I doubt so. His new manga hasn't launched yet right? I guess there's contractual obligation that he cannot just wash his hands off Boruto manga... People who read Naruto more or less knows what his authoring skills like, which is revealed largely at the end of the series.

 

Another problem is the plot itself: there's nothing to look forward to and the characters are hardly relatable.

 

Have a look at Charlie Brown in Peanuts (yup, I'm talking about the comic strip --I'm that old. haha...). Quoting from a recent article that I read "Part of the appeal of Peanuts is its nuanced view of the human psyche. Although the series is ostensibly for children, the concerns it addresses, from loneliness to fear of failure, apply to people of all ages. Although it can be demoralising to read about Charlie’s repeated lack of success, in his love life and on the playing field, it made the strip relatable to a wide audience. “Charlie must be the one who suffers”, said Schulz “because he is a caricature of the average person. Most of us are much more acquainted with losing than winning.

 

You can relate to Charlie easily. The author knows and designs him as such. We are much more acquainted with losing.

 

Same as Naruto in its early days. Naruto was a loser and we can relate to him and to his struggle. He had a one sided crush to Sakura chan; --that too, we can relate to him. What made Naruto interesting was his effort to keep up-skilling and training, to keep doing his best to win his crush's heart. We yearn for his success because we know, deep down, we are also familiar with such situation. In one way or another... Missing that chance, losing that match, failing that test, having a crush to that person that we're afraid of approaching. We are familiar with this, hence we can relate to it, although on the surface it's primarily action manga in ninja world with a lot of Japanese Edo period (Tokugawa) references and Japanese folklore. The emotional bits of it --the struggle, the one sided love, the friendship; has made this manga took off to where it was.

 

With Boruto, you have a kid that's "talented", born into a wealthy family, his mother is a princess, his father is the #1 person in your village, he has a lot of fans at school. A main character whose acting up just because daddy isn't around and busy at work. What a boring setup for a character in a manga that emphasizes about struggle. The setup is the exact opposite of Naruto, yet, the storyline is copying the older generation. That, my dear NS friends, is a recipe for a disaster. How many people can relate to his character? Not much I suppose... and NH/SS fandom that was supposed to be 'big' turns out only support it in a scale of a fraction of NS.

 

Such a waste of potential.


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#27143 James S Cassidy

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 06:53 PM

I view all of these post-mortem as nothing but casualties caused by business decision errors.

 

Kishimoto can say whatever he wants after the fact. That won't change what has been written in his manga. The more he speak, the more we know there's hardly any planning, and there's nothing philosophically deeper in the content than what was drawn. The readers thought too much about it, lol... For me personally, the more I realized that I gave too much credits to him and how much I overrated him. I'm not sure if he's being humble, but again, I should've realized long time ago that Kishi is no Arakawa. When he said he cannot write romance, that was to be taken as it is, literally.

I don't find this as an excuse not to fix something. "It will never be as popular as it was before." I don't know. We say we moved on, but all it takes is one little good moment, one right decision, and we can change our minds for the most part and this true for a lot of things especially now that many mangaka and anime directors are going back and redoing some of their own work.

HunterXHunter, Dragonball, Evengelion....some of these are getting remade to be better or to give a different take on the story. Why couldn't Naruto do this?

Akira Toriyama has gone back and is making Dragonball Super which some could argue is better than Dragonball GT and give a new story while some may argue it makes even more mistakes.

Hideki Anno is "rebuilding" Evangelion and made a whole new story using movies. A different way of telling it.

HunterXHunter is redoing the anime.

So the idea that you can't go back in and fix things or change them is ridiculous if you can make them better than before and actually care about the story overall. Naruto is surely still big enough to make the changes, but the questions would be "would they be willing to?" How many would protest that "Naruto and Hinata is not canon so this is a horrible change?" The demographic that ONLY Naruto and Hinata can be together is what is causing the stagnation. They don't care about anything else, but this fact. Naruto can be the worst father and rape his own kids, but as long as he is with Hinata and NH is canon...they don't care about anything else.

Look at Marvel with Hulk vs Incredible Hulk. The fanbase can forgive you if you can make it worth it. They may not forget the garbage you made, but they can forgive you for it if you make it up to them.

But Kishimoto doesn't seem like a man who cares. He is done with the series. If he truly is overseeing every little bit of Boruto, then he is doing a horrible job of it. He is basically letting them do whatever and he doesn't care anymore. He just says "Okay." He doesn't want to be there and he is just choosing the quickest solution to go home to.

That is what makes Naruto such a tragic series. The creator doesn't care enough to make the story special and just does whatever to go home. It is like a painter that just scribbles on canvas and people eat it up like art. When questioned, people start to argue "How can you define art?" Well, art can be anything, but one thing it needs is passion behind it. You can't just make whatever and have no clue or reason and have no passion is still call it art. Art is about expressing oneself in a way that helps you portray.
 

With Boruto, you have a kid that's "talented", born into a wealthy family, his mother is a princess, his father is the #1 person in your village, he has a lot of fans at school. A main character whose acting up just because daddy isn't around and busy at work. What a boring setup for a character in a manga that emphasizes about struggle. The setup is the exact opposite of Naruto, yet, the storyline is copying the older generation. That, my dear NS friends, is a recipe for a disaster. How many people can relate to his character? Not much I suppose... and NH/SS fandom that was supposed to be 'big' turns out only support it in a scale of a fraction of NS.

 

 

The more the series goes on the more that the NS and SNS are proven correct, the more Naruto becomes a horrible hero, person, father, and role modal, the more Neji is proven right, and the more it proves that people have no idea what they are doing.

I still cannot think of another series that does what Naruto has done and still doing. Not a single series. Akira Toriyama tried to by making Gohan the new hero and what happened? People wanted Goku....not his lame ass son.  (Although, ironically, they say they want Goku and not Gohan only to complain that Gohan does nothing anymore. Well, they didn't want Gohan to be in the forefront. It's like having a PS4 and Xbox One and you always buy game for PS4 because you prefer that console over the Xbox One only to ask why the Xbox One is so useless. Well, you don't play it and choose NOT to buy games for it, You can't blame the system for actions you chose.)




 


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#27144 Moon_Girl

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 11:03 PM

Is no one going to comment on the fact that the website that the recent interview is on claims Hinata is one of the series' 'key characters'?  :lmao: 

Well, to be fair, there really isn't much to comment on. Just typical idiot talk.


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#27145 Nostradamus

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 01:03 AM

Is no one going to comment on the fact that the website that the recent interview is on claims Hinata is one of the series' 'key characters'?  :lmao: 

Well, to be fair, there really isn't much to comment on. Just typical idiot talk.

Well the truth is who said that is not exactly wrong. Quite frankly they are correct.

Hinata is indeed a key character. Her role is undeniable.

But what he failed to mention is in what way made her into a key character. She along with Sasuke played the biggest roles in destroying everything, in lore.

 

Also. Over 300 people here, been a while since this many have been here. :love:


Edited by Nostradamus, 17 November 2018 - 01:05 AM.

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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.

#27146 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:29 AM

Is no one going to comment on the fact that the website that (has) the recent interview "is on claims" (?) Hinata is one of the series' 'key characters'?  :lmao: 

Well, to be fair, there really isn't much to comment on. Just typical idiot talk.

What website?

 

Beyond that...of course they do. They still need to justify that she ended up with Naruto when normally, in shounen stories, it would be the heroine of the series (Sakura.) So, she needs to be one the most vital members of the plot despite the fact she have never done anything or real importance.



#27147 Phantom_999

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:50 AM

Well the idea is not that she has not done anything of importance really, it is that she was a side character that could have been taken out of the story at anytime and no-one but her worshiper cult would bat an eye, yet was PUSHED TO RELEVANCE IN THE STORY by that exact same worshiper cult. To say Hinata did nothing of relevance is true, but that applies to other heroines in shonen manga/anime yet they are still the heroines. Anzu/Tea doesn't duel for instance and there are way more heroines than I can list off the top of my head that don't fight or stay away from relevant battles in most action and fighting series in the genre but they are still important as emotional support, etc. It is just Hinata did NONE of that. She was just a shy quiet girl that secretly liked the village pariah and that made sympathizers think that she is entitled to him and should be revered as a goddess, especially after her "chest puberty". But being a heroine doesn't mean squat if you are not relevant to the story nor again are a huge pillar of emotional support to the MC, which we all know again, Hinata was neither of those things.


Edited by Phantom_999, 17 November 2018 - 05:50 PM.

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#27148 Yyubie

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 07:41 AM

Is no one going to comment on the fact that the website that the recent interview is on claims Hinata is one of the series' 'key characters'?  :lmao: 

Well, to be fair, there really isn't much to comment on. Just typical idiot talk.

strong-lolololol.gif

 

UNLESS ... (maybe her being key character mean) that this whole boruto B.S is inside her infinite tsukuyomi ...


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#27149 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 06:19 PM

wth is he even talking about that he had a hard time writing the Pain arc because Sasuke's about revenge and Naruto's about not seeking revenge?

 

The Pain arc had everything to do with Naruto beating another version of himself...not Sasuke. Up until that point Naruto and Sasuke were on parallel arcs. Sasuke didn't go into his battle with Itachi thinking about Naruto. Naruto shouldn't have even thought once about Sasuke. 

 

See...this is the problem with this story. Naruto doesn't have a motivation outside of Sasuke. Even the Pain arc is somehow wrapped up with Sasuke's feelings and motivations. And the Pain arc is the last time in the whole storyline where Naruto is not either him moving towards or in response to Sasuke's actions. And now Kishimoto says basically that Naruto's one independent arc was hard to write because of...Sasuke. 

It really reinforces how Sasuke was not Kishi's original idea, but his editor's. Having such a "rival character" is pretty much a shonen trope.
 

 

You're right — there's nothing at all wrong with it. Staying home to raise other humans is its own job! lol

 

In fact, I completely support that for real life moms and dads as well as fictional ones, as long as that's their choice. But in the case with Naruto, it feels like the characters gave up so much of their motivation to become mothers, without a single word or foreshadowing that they may one day return to the other professions they worked so hard on. This is their fate, as written by Kishimoto, and they have to be happy with it. Despite the fact that the female characters never once indicated they wanted to give up everything they worked for over the last 500+ chapters to stay home and be homemakers...uh, and at age 22. 

 

But the fate of women in Naruto is murky at best. Even way back in the series Kurama is seen as sidelined, never to regain her pre-baby power. And she's told by her father that women carry on the family roles, etc., or something. I get it that there's a lot of Japanese culture in these choices — it's a huuuuuge problem that women are expected to leave the workforce to have a child and that it's uncommon for men to share a household role in cooking, cleaning — and I get that Kishimoto was writing to that cultural norm. 

 

But Naruto is not present day Japan. And having to watch as Kishimoto destroys his characters with some preachy get-back-to-traditional-roles undertone to his ending is just a slap in the face to all his readers.

 

Being a homemaker is fine. But it's not the ending that Hinata or Sakura were headed to. And to end it that way goes completely against the whole universe. Here's why:

 

1. Hinata's role as clan leader came at the cost every other Hyuuga's power — Her role in the series was to overcome obstacles to take the helm of her clan. Neji's power was docked to let Hinata move ahead, as was every other man and woman in their clan who showed any prowess or skill greater than hers. In fact, you could probably argue that Neji ended up dying because of it. How much farther could he have gone without the cage seal? Could he have saved himself? Maybe. All we know is that him and all the other Hyuuga family members operate at half power...just for their Hinata-sama. 

 

Hinata gives it all up to become a wife only. No longer a nin. No longer clan head. She threw away the sacrifice of every other member of her clan. This is why she should not be a homemaker. Not because there's something wrong with it, but because she already accepted the bargain that everybody else is held back so she can move ahead. The ending is completely at odds with her whole purpose in the story.

 

2. Women retiring at age 20-25 to have kids would cause a massive power vacuum in Konoha. — Seriously. This is a fighting manga set in feudal Japan-style universe. Where is the apprentice to the third sage (who is a sage-level nin and top medic in her own right)? Eh, she went off to dust the Uchiha curios. Where is the head of the most powerful clan in Konoha? Eh, she went home to knit sweaters. Where is the inheritor or the mind-control jutsu? Eh, she went home to run her family's flower shop. 

 

Yeah...I'm thinking that Konoha would be wiped off the map within a year by other villages that DON'T require their most skilled nins to retire after childbirth.

 

I 100% support women and men staying home to care for children. But in this series it is just so out of place. It says more about Kishi's backwards views than it does about what was happening in his own series. But, as we all know now, apparently he wasn't reading his own manga. 

Remember how Tenten said that she wanted to become a kunoichi as strong as Tsunade? Now look at her... >_<

 

After that Kobiyashi interview, that came more of a blow to me than the ending. Discovering just how little of the story was his idea really shook me, it felt like he was just the artist and the editors, for better or for worse, were the real writers. 

 

I don't want to call Kishimoto dumb or something worse, but it's genuinely scary how devoid the actual Naruto is of his own ideas, and how haphazard the planning process was. 

 

It also explains why we've heard diddly-squat from his new sci-fi manga. I recall shortly after Naruto ended, the web said what's next for Kishimoto was a sci-fi manga. I can't say I was looking forward to it, but I was at least intrigued. To this day, not a word of it. It's always coming back to Naruto and Boruto. I genuinely believe he met with a bunch of editors, turned in his ideas, and they're running away in fear after realizing he's not the author they thought he was. While the actual writer of the Boruto manga says otherwise, I've a feeling he's taking cues from Kishimoto on some elements of his sci-fi story he wanted to make. 

 

It's also funny how HIro Mishima, after finishing Fairy Tail, also announced a sci-fi story. About a year and a half later, we not only got that, but several Fairy Tail spin-offs as well. It seriously makes me question what's been happening with Kishimoto behind the scenes.

 

You make a good point I haven't thought of before. Yes, in Japanese culture it is still very much the norm for women to stay at home and raise the children while the men work and support them, but in the long run it wouldn't make sense in the Naruto world. These are villages made up of NINJA. which would require everyone on reserve and in top physical condition. What's more, real-life ninja villages existed outside of the national economy, so they pretty much needed EVERYONE to work. Naruto's ninja villages should also function the same way. In addition to the standard kunoichi, Konoha's big three females (Sakura, Ino, and HInata) each had unique abilites. No military leader in their right mind would just let these once in a generation practitioners go. We're also talking about a world where children are sent out to battle before they even become teenagers, sometimes even younger. So what's the point of the women staying in the kitchen then?

I remember WAY in the beginning of Naruto, Iruka mentioned his PARENTS died fighting the Kyuubi. Granted, it was vague exactly HOW that went down, but unless Iruka was the adopted son of a gay couple, his MOTHER AND FATHER went to fight the Kyuubi.

Even in Boruto, Sakura still has her medic skills, and her strength, so she's been practicing at least and even had time to teach Sarada. So there really is no excuse for her to be off the field, especially when it seems Sasuke isn't paying the bills. 

 

Kishimoto seemed to think of everything only on a superficial level. He brought in the theme of peace in Naruto not because these were ideas he himself believed in, but because he thought the tropes of shonen demanded it. All of Naruto's major enemies have been foils of himself, because Kishimoto thought if that archetype worked before, it should always. He decided to focus on making Sakura prettier instead of a badass because he thinks looks are the only things readers care about...and because a 4 year old girl said she wouldn't look up to her. He stuck with Sai's Sheldon-esque personality because he thought no one would care to see actual character development. 

Now, I know all writers have to do things to keep if not increase the popularity of their franchise, but there has to be an intrinsic desire to tell a good story behind it, and Kishimoto showed none of that. He just wanted a story to make him money. 

And it's why Nagato and onward just felt forced to be "Naruto gone wrong" foils - because that's ALL they really knew how to do major antagonists in Naruto.

Zabuza and Haku were more effective because not only could their foil easily apply to Naruto himself (as Kurama's container), but to ALL shinobi and kunoichi while Gaara was effective because his foil was far more personal to Naruto. At first, the ONLY thing Nagato had in common with Naruto was having Jiraiya as a sensei, which is why it feels like him being made into an Uzumaki was completely forced in order to give him a more "personal" connection to Naruto. Why can't there be more enemies who are evil just to be evil or something like Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kisame, etc.? I mean, Sasori had a tragic backstory with his parents being killed by Kakashi's father during a previous war, but while that may have gotten a little bit of sympathy and understanding from us readers, it DID NOT excuse the numerous despicable atrocities he had committed throughout his life up to that point and he still died like the criminal missing nin that he was.

But from Nagato onward, EVERYONE seemed to need some sort of tragic backstory and even excuse(s) to NOT be killed to where even freaking Orochimaru, one of the most vile, disgusting, twisted beings to exist in the entire story, is allowed to walk free with the lightest of supervision (and that supervision being one of his very own experiments that he had expressed interest in capturing in order to find out how he survived in hopes of replicating the result), and was even allowed to succeed in his quest for immortality (somehow).

 

Well the idea is not that she has not done anything of importance really, it is that she was a side character that could have been taken out of the story at anytime and no-one but her worshiper cult would bat an eye, yet was PUSHED TO RELEVANCE IN THE STORY by that exact same worshiper cult. To say Hinata did nothing of relevance is true, but that applies to other heroines in shonen manga/anime yet they are still the heroines. Anzu/Tea doesn't duel for instance and there are way more heroines than I can list off the top of my head that don't fight or stay away from relevant battles in most action and fighting series in the genre but they are still important as emotional support, etc. It is just Hinata did NONE of that. She was just a shy quiet girl that secretly liked the village pariah and that made sympathizers think that she is entitled to him and should be revered as a goddess, especially after her "chest puberty". But being a heroine doesn't mean squat if you are not relevant to the story nor again are a huge pillar of emotional support to the MC, which we all know again, Hinata was neither of those things.

You can easily replace Hinatatas with virtually anyone else during all of her "moments" and the results would have virtually no impact on the story, characters, or anything. In fact, some moments could have been STRONGER if it were someone else other than Hinatatas.

Like Hinatatas' selfish confession. Rather than that, I think it would have been more effective if it had been some random villager who treated Naruto badly throughout their life - because of that feeling of hatred towards him and not seeing him as separate from Kurama and such - who would come to stand between Pein and Naruto, admit their wrongdoings in Iruka-like fashion, how Naruto's own actions and their own witnessing of Naruto throughout the years (seeing him practicing alone, being by himself and such) slowly caused them to change his views, and that it was time that Konoha atoned for its treatment of him (so the first show of Naruto getting the acknowledgement he always wanted), resulting in them (and maybe even some other villagers) getting "killed" by Pein. I feel something like that rather than some random, selfish confession from a girl Naruto didn't even know well would have a FAR more profound reaction from both Naruto and the readers.


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#27150 KClaws_2

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 07:46 AM

Is no one going to comment on the fact that the website that the recent interview is on claims Hinata is one of the series' 'key characters'?  :lmao: 

Well, to be fair, there really isn't much to comment on. Just typical idiot talk.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about before. I have to ask, if Hinata is such a key character, WHY is she not on any Naruto merchandise that is not The Last? I recall walking by a comic/collectables shop in a mall after the ending, they had an old Part 1 poster of Naruto on the wall. It was purely Team 7, no Hinata in sight. In just about every Naruto game, Hinata is a background character in the covers at best. She isn't even given squat to do in Boruto.

 

For such a "key character", she is suspiciously absent in a lot things related to Naruto.



#27151 KClaws_2

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 07:50 AM

I don't find this as an excuse not to fix something. "It will never be as popular as it was before." I don't know. We say we moved on, but all it takes is one little good moment, one right decision, and we can change our minds for the most part and this true for a lot of things especially now that many mangaka and anime directors are going back and redoing some of their own work.

HunterXHunter, Dragonball, Evengelion....some of these are getting remade to be better or to give a different take on the story. Why couldn't Naruto do this?

Akira Toriyama has gone back and is making Dragonball Super which some could argue is better than Dragonball GT and give a new story while some may argue it makes even more mistakes.

Hideki Anno is "rebuilding" Evangelion and made a whole new story using movies. A different way of telling it.

HunterXHunter is redoing the anime.

So the idea that you can't go back in and fix things or change them is ridiculous if you can make them better than before and actually care about the story overall. Naruto is surely still big enough to make the changes, but the questions would be "would they be willing to?" How many would protest that "Naruto and Hinata is not canon so this is a horrible change?" The demographic that ONLY Naruto and Hinata can be together is what is causing the stagnation. They don't care about anything else, but this fact. Naruto can be the worst father and rape his own kids, but as long as he is with Hinata and NH is canon...they don't care about anything else.

Look at Marvel with Hulk vs Incredible Hulk. The fanbase can forgive you if you can make it worth it. They may not forget the garbage you made, but they can forgive you for it if you make it up to them.

But Kishimoto doesn't seem like a man who cares. He is done with the series. If he truly is overseeing every little bit of Boruto, then he is doing a horrible job of it. He is basically letting them do whatever and he doesn't care anymore. He just says "Okay." He doesn't want to be there and he is just choosing the quickest solution to go home to.

That is what makes Naruto such a tragic series. The creator doesn't care enough to make the story special and just does whatever to go home. It is like a painter that just scribbles on canvas and people eat it up like art. When questioned, people start to argue "How can you define art?" Well, art can be anything, but one thing it needs is passion behind it. You can't just make whatever and have no clue or reason and have no passion is still call it art. Art is about expressing oneself in a way that helps you portray.
 

 

The more the series goes on the more that the NS and SNS are proven correct, the more Naruto becomes a horrible hero, person, father, and role modal, the more Neji is proven right, and the more it proves that people have no idea what they are doing.

I still cannot think of another series that does what Naruto has done and still doing. Not a single series. Akira Toriyama tried to by making Gohan the new hero and what happened? People wanted Goku....not his lame ass son.  (Although, ironically, they say they want Goku and not Gohan only to complain that Gohan does nothing anymore. Well, they didn't want Gohan to be in the forefront. It's like having a PS4 and Xbox One and you always buy game for PS4 because you prefer that console over the Xbox One only to ask why the Xbox One is so useless. Well, you don't play it and choose NOT to buy games for it, You can't blame the system for actions you chose.)



 

Naruto has great potential to be remade or rebooted (which I am making a fanfiction about, hint hint). However, the current series needs to end, and probably rest for a while until there is a piqued interest again. Kishimoto will have to come clean about why things went the way they did in his last series, and I think it's just best he's there as a consultant rather than the head on whatever the new project will be. 



#27152 sushi.

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:30 PM

Idk what you're discussing here but I feel like this forum thinks Hinata got the long end of the stick and I disagree. I just thought of it and getting it off my chest will be good. Kishi treats Hinata like garbage - he literally called her the "boob-character" when he was asked about her in an interview.

 

Sakura was never allowed to get over Sasuke because that's not what a good woman does, and I put Hinata in the same box. It is so very spineless no-balls of him to reduse her to something lesser than he wrote her as, only because he's mad at her fans. She's his creation not theirs and he once said all characters have something of him in them. In a good story the side characters are main characters too, they have independent full lives that cross paths with one another and there you have a plot.

 

Naruto is such a basic series.


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#27153 Moon_Girl

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:57 PM

If Naruto ever got rebooted, you know it would be tailored to NaruHina and SasuSaku. To this day, Studio Pierrot clings to think belief that they did the right thing. 
In fact, they'd probably shove Hinata into the heroine status from the beginning.

Apparently there's incoming merch. or some event featuring Naruto's bonds. Guess who's there and who isn't?  :fu: 
The fans are asking where Sakura is. Naturally they're upset. Here's the picture in question:

Warning: Side effects may induce justified rage


NaruSaku will always be better than crack and fan fiction
 

#27154 DrK

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 09:05 PM

Idk what you're discussing here but I feel like this forum thinks Hinata got the long end of the stick and I disagree. I just thought of it and getting it off my chest will be good. Kishi treats Hinata like garbage - he literally called her the "boob-character" when he was asked about her in an interview.

 

Sakura was never allowed to get over Sasuke because that's not what a good woman does, and I put Hinata in the same box. It is so very spineless no-balls of him to reduse her to something lesser than he wrote her as

You talk as if Kishi ever injected value into her to begin with. He's a mangaka who was kittening heartless to all his characters. He killed Neji off because it was convenient and because someone told him to do that (?)

 

But with the other characters there was development that was wasted. Hinata was never treated with respect or even paid the least amount of attention by him, so to sabotage characters who were actually worth something for a pairing involving her was beyond the pale.


Edited by DrK, 19 November 2018 - 09:11 PM.


#27155 James S Cassidy

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Posted Yesterday, 04:48 PM

Idk what you're discussing here but I feel like this forum thinks Hinata got the long end of the stick and I disagree. I just thought of it and getting it off my chest will be good. Kishi treats Hinata like garbage - he literally called her the "boob-character" when he was asked about her in an interview.

 

Sakura was never allowed to get over Sasuke because that's not what a good woman does, and I put Hinata in the same box. It is so very spineless no-balls of him to reduse her to something lesser than he wrote her as, only because he's mad at her fans. She's his creation not theirs and he once said all characters have something of him in them. In a good story the side characters are main characters too, they have independent full lives that cross paths with one another and there you have a plot.

 

Naruto is such a basic series.

You're right, she didn't get the long end of the stick, BUT...she did get treated more kind than any other character in the series including Naruto himself. They gave her everything and then some. So, no, Hinata drew the short end of the stick, but to make it seem like she did pull the long one they just broke everyone else's stick until Hinata's was the biggest. Even bigger than Naruto's.

Like I said, way in the past. They couldn't raise Hinata's bar, so they just lowered everyone else's to the point that Hinata looked good.

Hinata got the guy she wanted, the life she wanted, and all her problems were magically wiped away. Hyuga civil war? Pff, what civil war? Her cousin hated her? He sacrifices himself for her sake. Not strong enough to be the queen of the Hyuga? Create a villain that takes out her sister who was more worthy of the throne and make her look weak.

Take any situation about Hinata and you will see that it was not Hinata who got smarter, stronger, and better. It was that everyone else got dumber, weaker, and worse. And the fanbase made excuses for it.


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#27156 Bail o' Lies

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Posted Today, 01:14 AM

It really doesn't matter that Kishimoto didn't care about Hinata, because SP more than made up for it, and made the ending entirely about her.







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