266 replies to this topic

[Muffins?]

 

 

Might want to spoiler tag that bro, this is the discussion for the TV show and not everyone has read all of the books.

Edited by Muffins?, 05 June 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[rocci]

 
Might want to spoiler tag that bro, this is the discussion for the TV show and not everyone has read all of the books.

The thread is dark and full of spoiler.

[MoonDrop04]

Yeah sorry bout that 😓 I figured everything about the books was common knowledge by now

[Nar123]

spoiler

 

Yeah I've read what's supposed to happen in the books, especially with Jon snow unfortunately but if it were me since the TV show and books are starting to line up with each other and god knows when the next two books would come out, I would at this point in time diverge the TV shows story line from the books story line.

The show is getting so much popularity right now and passing its original story plot in the books that it should feel I guess "natural" for George R.R Martin and the fan base to mainly focus the Shows development and keep the track going to see where it goes towards its End.

If this were the case to happen, for me I would leave the Season 5 finale with a shocking ending that tells the fans it is taking a new direction from the books at this point. For example jon snows stabbing in the books....

For the S5 finale the last 10 minutes i would like to see Jon snow and Ser Alliser at the top of the wall discussing their views for the up coming war against the white walkers and the future of the wildlings. Differences of opinion will occur but ultimately Jon stating that this is the best path to winning and with Ser Alliser agreeing.......until he tells Jon that he won't live to see it. And from their Alliser backstabs Jon with a small knife, takes long claw and pushes Jon off the edge of the wall north side, with Sam coming in just to see his friends demise. Alliser goes towards Sam and says that this was best for the future of the nights watch and saying that he would now be taking the lord commander position and that he doesn't need any witnesses to what he just did. With that just about he was to strike down Sam with long claw they both hear the shriek of a raven or multiple Ravens coming from the edge of the wall and dropping down in a cluster and begin forming into first Jon down on the ground exhausted and the Ravens turning into Bran Stark. From there both Alliser and Sam are shocked to what they both witness to eventually Jon being surprised and show ending with bran saying something along the lines of "Not Today!".

Think fans would like that??

 

Not really, at least I wouldn't like it ...it would feel a bit like an asspull

 

 

I wish they follow the books at least a little in this one scene, also I think it's safe to say

spoiler

Bran won't save Jon

Edited by Nar123, 06 June 2015 - 12:43 AM.

[MoonDrop04]

 
Not really, at least I wouldn't like it ...it would feel a bit like an asspull
 
 
I wish they follow the books at least a little in this one scene, also I think it's safe to say

spoiler

Bran won't save Jon

Damn back to the drawing board 😭

[sushi.]

 

Not really, at least I wouldn't like it ...it would feel a bit like an asspull

 

 

I wish they follow the books at least a little in this one scene, also I think it's safe to say

spoiler

Bran won't save Jon

response

In the books, we don't know who'll save Jon yet. A popular fan theory that I subscribe of is Melisandre. She thinks Jon is..someone..idk maybe the song of ice and fire. But in the show, she's far of attacking the Boltons already? well. I think Jon's rescuer will be revealed next season. The end scene of S5 will probably be Jon's stabbing. As he falls to the ground, the camera will probably zoom out in the distance with a crowd watching and it'll be dramatic af. 

[CloudMountainJuror]

I can't defend the show. Not this time. This time, they went too far. Even if they wanted to do this plotline, go this route, they could have done so in an infinitely better way. But nope. They followed up Hardhome, one of the best episodes of the show, with probably the worst episode of the show.

[Muffins?]

Stannis you were the chosen one ;_;

 

I will not abandon the mannis until the winds of winter...if he does the same, at least it might set up Davos to join Rickon and unite the North under the Stark banner.

 

Spoiler

Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder.
-Stannis, ADWD.
Lol, let's burn my daughter.
-Stannis, S5E9

Edited by Muffins?, 08 June 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[Narufan85]

response

In the books, we don't know who'll save Jon yet. A popular fan theory that I subscribe of is Melisandre. She thinks Jon is..someone..idk maybe the song of ice and fire. But in the show, she's far of attacking the Boltons already? well. I think Jon's rescuer will be revealed next season. The end scene of S5 will probably be Jon's stabbing. As he falls to the ground, the camera will probably zoom out in the distance with a crowd watching and it'll be dramatic af. 

 

Since D&D said "the first and last scenes of the DwD are totally in the show" my guess is they either end it the way you suggested or:

 

Book/Show Spoiler

With Varys killing Kevan. Which, to be honest, doesn't really make sense in the context of the show. He kills Kevan for a very specific reason and in support of Aegon. But since there is no Aegon, it will just be D&D doing something they're supposed to 'cause it's in the books.

 

I can't defend the show. Not this time. This time, they went too far. Even if they wanted to do this plotline, go this route, they could have done so in an infinitely better way. But nope. They followed up Hardhome, one of the best episodes of the show, with probably the worst episode of the show.

 

I know we've had our disagreements over the show/book, but I'm glad you said this because it helps me know I'm not just upset as a "book guy."

I had a few really specific issues with this episode. I'll try not to talk about the books too much, but I will in as vague terms as possible.

 

Maybe Book Spoilers

 

1: Why make Trant a pedophile? This show has already gotten a lot of well-deserved criticism for its take on women, especially violence towards women. But making Trant a pedophile and dragging that scene on is really, really distasteful. My guess is that it's to set up a moment similar to the sample chapter Martin released for the next books. But it just seems like gross shock value to me.

 

2: A lot of folks said this season would improve on the "filler" in the last two books. When people talk about that filler they talk about Brienne, Jaime, and Dorne. All three stories in the show are way worse. What was the point of the scenes in Dorne? Just absolutely terrible. And to reduce the Dornish to a trope of "fight and kitten, kitten and fight" ignores the rich culture Martin created.

 

3: The burning of Shireen. Now, in the inside the episode D&D said, "when Martin told us about that..." But my guess is the "that" Martin talks about is way, way different. And that's a problem I have. If you are going to take great liberties in adapting Martin's work, don't hide behind the book when it's convenient to you. The set up for Shireen's burning was totally not earned. Rambo Ramsey and 20 guys wreck all of Stannis' stuff? The guy who survived a months-long siege at Storms End? It was a series of emotionally manipulative points.

 

And once again, they have Selyse as the only one to show emotion. Like they did in Hardhome with the mother Wildling. The show producers have a bad tendency of using motherhood to show the emotional weakness of women and its really problematic.

[Narufan85]

 

 

Speaking of signing books... as I was in the post below...

For all of you who are enjoying OUTLANDER, the marvelous adaptation of Diana Gabaldon's time travel novels that just finished its first season on STARZ... well, the show is terrific, but the books are even better (as is so often the case), and we have AUTOGRAPHED COPIES of the whole Outlander series and the 'Lord John' spinoff books as well available via mail order from the Jean Cocteau Bookshop 

If you haven't been watching OUTLANDER, you're missing a terrific TV series. Gorgeous to look at, and the performances by the three leads are terrific. Tobias Menzies, who played Brutus on HBO's ROME and Edmure Tully on GAME OF THRONES, is especially noteworthy in a double role. (I just hope we'll be able to get him back, if and when D&D decide to return to the riverlands).
 

[MoonDrop04]

Well.........now I want the red hair b***h dead 😑

I know they were foreshadowing this moment happening with stannis having his "daddy" moment and the She-Devil (forgot her name ) asking for a sacrifice to the God of light........just didn't think they would actually do it, Much Less SHOW IT!!!!

Now it makes me think that the She-Devils next target for a sacrifice will be Sansa after being rescued from the Boltons O_O dammit...

[Nar123]

D&D totally assassinated  Stannis character...wtf

 

 

 

 

Maybe Book Spoilers

 

1: Why make Trant a pedophile? This show has already gotten a lot of well-deserved criticism for its take on women, especially violence towards women. But making Trant a pedophile and dragging that scene on is really, really distasteful. My guess is that it's to set up a moment similar to the sample chapter Martin released for the next books. But it just seems like gross shock value to me.

 

2: A lot of folks said this season would improve on the "filler" in the last two books. When people talk about that filler they talk about Brienne, Jaime, and Dorne. All three stories in the show are way worse. What was the point of the scenes in Dorne? Just absolutely terrible. And to reduce the Dornish to a trope of "fight and kitten, kitten and fight" ignores the rich culture Martin created.

 

3: The burning of Shireen. Now, in the inside the episode D&D said, "when Martin told us about that..." But my guess is the "that" Martin talks about is way, way different. And that's a problem I have. If you are going to take great liberties in adapting Martin's work, don't hide behind the book when it's convenient to you. The set up for Shireen's burning was totally not earned. Rambo Ramsey and 20 guys wreck all of Stannis' stuff? The guy who survived a months-long siege at Storms End? It was a series of emotionally manipulative points.

 

And once again, they have Selyse as the only one to show emotion. Like they did in Hardhome with the mother Wildling. The show producers have a bad tendency of using motherhood to show the emotional weakness of women and its really problematic.

 

1- I think they did that, not just as a shock factor, but as a foreshadowing for the way Arya will use to approach him, just like the " Mercy " chapter with Raff

 

2 and 3- totally agree

[rocci]

@nar123
D&d said that grrm told them that shireen would be burn. I got this from asoiaf forum.

The question is will the same thing happen in the next book by Stannis or melisandre?

[Narufan85]

D&D totally assassinated  Stannis character...wtf

 

 

 

1- I think they did that, not just as a shock factor, but as a foreshadowing for the way Arya will use to approach him, just like the " Mercy " chapter with Raff

 

2 and 3- totally agree

 

I think you are right about #1. I just think it went too far, you know? Like, they could have been subtle and had Arya overhear Trant talking about the brothel and his particular proclivities. The "bring a fresh one tomorrow" line and how it was set up just seems gratuitous to me.

 

@nar123
D&d said that grrm told them that shireen would be burn. I got this from asoiaf forum.

The question is will the same thing happen in the next book by Stannis or melisandre?

They did. But I suspect context matters significantly. I don't doubt the event will happen in some manner, but it felt unearned about OOC on the show.

[rocci]

I think arya will kill trant and make that assasin give her punishment or perhaps blind milk, and that's where she awaken her warging ability.

[sushi.]

I think arya will kill trant and make that assasin give her punishment or perhaps blind milk, and that's where she awaken her warging ability.

I think they'll drop her warging ability. They reduced her to angry whiny kid killer who wants revenge and nothing more. :<

 

Anyway, I haven't seen the episode. I think I'm slowly dropping the show. I just watch clips I find interesting. Like Shireen's burning, I couldn't believe it until I saw it with my own eyes. What they did to Stannis was even OOC for his show character, that's how bad this is. Now I admit he's a very cold, yet not evil person, but Shireen is a but a little child and his only heir. In the show he has a warm relationship with her, in the books he tells his men to put her on the throne in the case of his death. What confuses me is grrm approval. D&D ruins his work and turns his message upside down, and he defends them.

[Nar123]

DId GRRM really defend them? 

I mean, D&D just told us that GRRM planned on having Shireen was going to be burned in TWOW but...did GRRM really defended their idea of having Stannis burn Shireen? 

Edited by Nar123, 11 June 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[rocci]

DId GRRM really defend them? 
I mean, D&D just told us that GRRM planned on having Shireen was going to be burned in TWOW during but...did GRRM really defended their idea of having Stannis burn Shireen? 

To make sure, you should see behind the scene the after episode 9.

I don't like child killing, but since the setting of this book and show is in the crapsack world, that kind of thing is expect.

Personally I don't know if grrm defend it.
If stains truly do that, then it would be explain in the book.
I think his character is more Grey than good, unlike jon, dany, or tyrion.

@sushi
I think they will show it. It's a powerful ability after all.
I think, arya can't become a nobody, as long as she keep her needle.

Edited by rocci, 10 June 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[sushi.]

DId GRRM really defend them? 

I mean, D&D just told us that GRRM planned on having Shireen was going to be burned in TWOW during but...did GRRM really defended their idea of having Stannis burn Shireen? 

According to d&d, it was grrm's idea.

[Narufan85]

DId GRRM really defend them? 

I mean, D&D just told us that GRRM planned on having Shireen was going to be burned in TWOW during but...did GRRM really defended their idea of having Stannis burn Shireen? 

 

 

According to d&d, it was grrm's idea.

 

I don't think it's that simple. D&D said, "when Martin told us about THAT..." "That" is very vague. I think there's enough evidence in the books to suggest that SOMEONE is going to burn Shireen. But the context will be entirely different. I would bet that Mel independently makes the decision rather than pressure Stannis to do so.

D&D have shown they have no problems broadly interpreting Martin. I think they did it here.

Also, Martin is throwing tons of shade at the show:

 

THIS exchange in the comment section of his blog is great.

 

 

 

I suspect that "Maegor III" was a mistake, though I cannot say for certain. Perhaps a flubbed line, as you suggest. It is true that the Targaryen succession on the series is different than the one in the novels; most notably, the Mad King's father Jaehaerys II was dropped, as was established way back in season one. In much the same way as the Rhoynar have been dropped from the royal titles, "King of Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men," etc.

These changes were simplifications, however. The books are very complex, but the practical limits of a television series call for a bit more simplicity. Dropping a king or two accomplishes that.

ADDING kings, however, would be a step in the opposite direction, which is why I think "Maegor III" had to be a mistake. And not one that was in the scripts, I would guess. Bryan Cogman, who is the Keeper of the Continuity on the series, knows the names of the Targaryen kings as well as I do.

Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. (Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).

All this, of course, is surmise on my part. You would have to ask David or Dan or Bryan for a more definitive answer.

In the book canon, of course, there has only been only King Maegor, the reputation of Maegor the Cruel being so black. England has had only one King John, for much the same reasons. (Prince Aerion Brightflame did name his son Maegor, but that was meant as a provocation, and in any case the boy never sat the Iron Throne).

As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.