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Western values VS Japanese values in Anime


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#1 Moon_Girl

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 04:37 AM

Earlier tonight, a friend of mine linked me to a tumblr post that turns out to be a very interesting read. 

 

http://milliekou.tum...archer-nenilein

 

 

What are your thoughts?


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#2 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 07:31 AM

"So here is the rough draft for my “Anime and Feminism 101” panel that might be happening at San Japan." Oh that never a good thing to start off with. Why do i get the feeling what I going to get a lecture by someone who probably has less understanding of anime or japan then i do? 

 

Sign I'm just going to put the post up here so it save some people time:

The original post about the anime and feminism 101 was removed so

1st guy: (who's tumbler is gone and all that is left is the line "You should all be ashamed for silencing her(so someone probably hacked the account in revenge)")

I disagree with so much of this. I am getting fed up with Western audiences in general but especially with anime (since I am Japanese). This is culturally imperialist, white feminist drivel (but it’s not only white women that do this) and it reeks of hypocrisy - you can’t preach this kind of stuff when the West is also sexist. If you are not Japanese then you don’t have any right to decide which parts of our media are definitely sexist or feminist. I can’t believe you were trying to “educate” people on this topic at a god damn panel.

Hell, the Western market contributes to less than 1% of the anime industry and Westerners are probably one of the worst things for the industry. The majority of them practise piracy and don’t spend a cent yet continue to complain about the quality of anime, demand that studios produce xyz and even whine when their free fansubs aren’t released on express. I once saw some people on a Hourou Musuko post recommending that everyone use KissAnime instead of Crunchyroll because Crunchyroll didn’t have a large selection (since it was legal and was a pay-to-use service created to support anime producers)…just how spoiled are you people?

There is no such genre called “Girl Coming of Age” and the “Magical Girl” genre was a huge contributing factor to the popularisation of moe (fanservice through infantilsation). Funny how you have Madoka and Sora no Woto listed as “feminist series” when they are both moe shows aimed towards adult males. Many people were discussing how Madoka was pretentious lolicon but no one on tumblr thought about the social context until Urobuchi’s interview spread over to tumblr. Misty/Kasumi from Pokemon is still sexualised, she was often used for fanservice scenes (which may not have appeared in the English dubbed versions) and Pokemon’s primary demographic is young males. This kind of “innocent fanservice” is very common among kodomo anime but again, you won’t realise anything without being raised in the culture.

I’m also rolling my eyes pretty hard at how you want anime to subvert gender roles but also believe anime is feminist for presenting girliness as a strength. Japan is a very conservative society and girls being encouraged to be feminine through children’s TV is a way of keeping gender conformity. That’s not a feminist message. There is so much pressure in Japanese society to follow these gender roles. A tomboy is seen as lacking in submissiveness and feminine charm and will often be told in her life that she will be unworthy of marriage and will never be a “real woman”. 

The standard for a “girly girl” is much higher in Japan and girls that don’t reach it are viewed as “manly” since masculinity is the default. This was largely a result of Western imperialists threatening Japanese men (wow what a surprise) after the Meiji era. These Japanese men decided that they would have to become tougher and that they had to stop the “feminization” of their culture by instilling stricter roles onto the Japanese population.

This is reflected in video games such as Persona 4 where Naoto pretended to be a boy because she wasn’t as feminine as society told her she should have been. She wanted to be a detective but to do that she would have to avoid being seen as a weak girl and to gain respect by posing as man. All you tumblr anime feminists went off to interpret her as a trans man and continued to piss on anyone that tried to tell you otherwise. Chihiro from Dangan Ronpa is another example of the problems with these strict gender roles. Don’t project your Western values onto Japanese society.

Often times tomboy may not be considered masculine from a Western perspective, and in fact very feminine instead.Many Japanese feminists are arguing for an abolition of gender roles on children’s TV, they don’t want presenting either masculinity or femininity as a strength. Japan is a traditionalist, homogeneous society with a deep focus on collectivism. If boys and girls were encouraged to focus on their own traits rather than doing just what their gender expected them then that would be pretty damn feminist. 

You are applying Western politics onto Japanese media while practising cultural imperialism and you don’t give a kitten how actual Japanese people feel about it, you just want to boost your ego as you post long-ass essays about anime onto tumblr to prove how much of a “feminist” you are. Why did I never see anyone call out Hayao Miyazaki on his kitten in “The Wind Rises”? He was glorifying the designer of the Zero’s Engine, Jiro Horikoshi. It was a fighter aircraft that was built with Chinese and Korean slave labour, then used to massacre these peoples. Nah, you were too busy crying over his disdain for otaku and wondering whether Kill La Kill was a metaphor for puberty.

2nd guy:

I wanted to thank the person who wrote this long rant, I wanted to praise them to heaven’s high, but it turns out, they deleted their blog. Well, figures that the one person with the courage to make tumblr face reality with first hand knowledge would be bullied off the site as soon as they dared to raise their voice. This is why this community has been making me sick lately.

This rant covers the exact things I have been trying to say for THREE YEARS, but every time I try to, I am shut up with the words“You are not Japanese shut up you d not speak for them”. Well, here you have it from a Japanese person. Are you happy now?

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Madoka Magica, but calling the Anime that said “Only girls have enough PMS to be magical” feminist is like calling Pizza “diet food”. And interpreting Naoto and Chihiro as trans will always be a headcanon and nothing else. Heck, most people don’t even realize that the American localization of P4 greatly toned down Chie’s Social Link to hide the fact that she has giant complexes because of her being a tomboy a considers herself an “unworthy woman” and actually LOVES being called “girly” or “docile”… Things that would be considered an *insult* in Western society.

While “Death of the Author” is a legit way of interpreting a work and SHOULD be practiced, erasing the cultural context behind it entirely is ignorant and nothing else. Educate yourself on the society and culture behind a work before you call yourself an authority on it. You don’t HAVE to be Japanese to understand these things, but you need a honest, true will to read into the issues from many, MANY sources and try to grasp them with all your intellectual capacity. This is how an academic approach works. This is how you learn to be truly flexible and tolerant. This is how you avoid being a TRULY bigoted, spoiled brat. 

Japanese society is not American Society. Applying American standards when interpreting a Japanese work doesn’t make you progressive. It’s the equivalent of criticizing 100 years old literature as if it had been written yesterday. You can’t do that. Anachronism is the same as Cultural stew. Differences will be differences. The world is not America. Finally get that idea out of your head, please.

And, most of all, do NOT find yourself entitled to complain about a medium you do not invest money into. This is the reason I only watch Fansubs when I plan on buying enough merchandise to make up for my inability to pay for watching the series. If you want a voice on a matter, you also need to invest into it. You cannot demand to have a voice without investment. It doesn’t work. 

Japanese Anime industry doesn’t give half a damn about the Western Market. They do not earn money off us. My japanese friend wasn’t even fully aware that there was a market for Anime and Japanese videogames in the west until she met me. Now she uses dubbed Anime and localized Persona games to improve her English skills and has interesting discussions about localization and differences in fandom with me. But before that she was completely unaware of our existence. Also, by the way. She is a textbook fangirl. She would be considered as girly as they come in a Western Standards. But the thing is? She considers herself a “very boyish tomboy”. Because, by Japanese standards, she is. 

Things are different in Japan. Do not preach water and drink wine. Please. 

 

Found the images from the original post:

 

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Edited by Bail o' Lies, 13 September 2016 - 08:10 AM.


#3 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 07:49 AM

Now my thoughts: The original writer (not first guy) is SO Clueless about anime and manga she doesn't even know what shojo and josei are! Most of the anime that is brought over from Japan and that are dub are Shounen or Seinin. In other words manga targeted at teenage boys and adult males. Shojo and Josei are less common to be brought over and they focus on appealing to teenage girls and adult women. Japan is not America. They have different values and morals then the US. They are not a third world country that beat and enslaves woman. They don't need to be talk down to by some woman who probably only seen a few anime and complain that "they are offended."


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 13 September 2016 - 08:13 AM.


#4 Konoha'sCrimsonFox

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 08:21 AM

such a disturbing topic.


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#5 rocci

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 01:58 PM

What's this about?
Can someone summarize it for me?

#6 Shadow1275

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 05:10 PM

Earlier tonight, a friend of mine linked me to a tumblr post that turns out to be a very interesting read. 

 

http://milliekou.tum...archer-nenilein

 

 

What are your thoughts?

This topic is as safe to touch as a minefiled

 

200.gif

 

There are some things like Boku no Pico which are blatantly disgusting that should be dealt with, but Japan is its own country and deserves its own culture.

 

 

 

In Naruto I don't have a problem with having Housewives and Feminine women. I like feminine women and motherhood should not be put down as demeaning. In fact many of us NS and Naruto fans don't mind that many characters became mothers.

 

There were two major problems in this category and both were egregious. The first was the imbalance. I'm not saying that there needs to be an equal ratio of housewives to independent women but is it really realistic that every single member of the Konoha 9 get married, have kids, and stay at home? (Except Tenten of course) Some of them who just came the f out of left field like Choji and Karui for example. And the only one who remained by herself is shown to be bored and struggling? And I won't even touch on Anko.

 

The other problem is that the House wives themselves are shown to be disrespected and miserable. Being a housewife and raising a family is fine. Love is fine. But love comes with mutual respect, caring, and investing in your families. Each of these was a reason why we loved NaruSaku and the two main pairings have NONE of these things. Sakura is a slave in every sense of the word. She is in debt, she has a child with a man who shows her no affection and clearly gives her no money wither, she simply cleans all day, etc. Hinata is more of the same though slightly better as she is not in debt but is clearly ignored by her husband.(Hell he sleeps on a couch in a different room for pete's sake) 

 

Their married life is shown to be awful , even b4 my parents got divorced they were happier and spent more time together than these two couples. Hell they interact more post divorce than Naruto and Hinata do.

 

And honestly I don't even think Japanese culture is the culprit here, otherwise they would have been shown to be happy together and there would be genuine feelings. Take chi chi and goku for instance. Toriyama made sure to have them kiss and show that they were happy with each other.

 

What it really is is SP and Jump pairing ppl out the wazoo so that they have their second generation. It's a cheap way to bring in loads of characters without having to build their popularity up from scratch. One of Naruto's largest draws was its LOADS of characters which were fairly diverse. Think of all the random side character fandoms like deidara fans, hidan fans, Itachi fans, Konan fans, etc. Like with Shikadai for example. Ppl will like him just bc he is shikamaru and temari's kid. No need to build a new character backstory, just borrow from old ones. But bc of this without a solid foundation for ALL of the pairings it comes up as cheap and just plain wrong. 


Edited by Shadow1275, 13 September 2016 - 05:15 PM.

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#7 Yyubie

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 05:49 PM

Guys ... please ... sigh, different country : different culture.


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#8 alexander

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 11:22 PM

So... long story short, feminists are still arrogant idiots and see everything with american lens?

 

Nothing to see here, just the same old nonsense we see in a daily basis.


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#9 goldenarms

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 10:09 PM

Earlier tonight, a friend of mine linked me to a tumblr post that turns out to be a very interesting read. 

 

http://milliekou.tum...archer-nenilein

 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Rosie, the person behind fandomsandfeminism, is such a tool and a product of the Regressive Left, it's horrifying. Her profile is littered with popular SJW material like "cis" and personal gender profiles, and the fact that she has a piece of paper saying that she's qualified to teach people things terrifies me to no end. I wouldn't trust her to raise a plant, let alone another human being that might end up just as dumb as her.

 

What kills me is that in her profile, she states that minority representation is important, and yet, she blatantly ignores the Japanese and how their culture works because she has this sparkly agenda disguised as a presentation about how Japan needs feminism and the models of anime/manga they should be following. Which, our local Japanese person had stated before deleting her profile, were explicitly the antithesis of her feminist rant and baldly showed just how idiotic and culturally blind she is. I swear, her denseness and insensitivity is so great, her head probably has its own gravitational field by now.


Edited by goldenarms, 14 September 2016 - 10:10 PM.


#10 NeonRanger

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 05:46 PM

One of the reasons why I'm not surprised most of the females ended up as housewives in Naruto. One of the reasons I avoid the Mashima or Kishimoto are sexist arguments. Yeah, there is a definite concern with how women are viewed in some mangaka's eyes, but it's not like they suddenly decided to view women in that way. JP is a very conservative and traditional country; it only just started opening up to liberal views, like equality. Kishi was raise to believe that being a housewife is normal and ok just like any other in JP. And it is okay. 

 

This is is why I avoid tumblr like a plague. There is being a Liberal, and then there's the Jill Stein supporter. You have no chance there if you're a straight, white male. I've seen so many call out post like it's a daily ritual. 

 

Like I've been through SNS posts, and if you even attempt to put NS on a pedestal to SNS, you're homophobic, support manipulative abuse, and even to as far as supporting genocide (like my bad Sasuke isn't that likable of a character). You don't know how many NS blogs I left because they decided to become an SNS supporter. I've even seen pro NH/SS join SNS. 

 

I can't even enjoy Steven Universe without the occasional "you're a racist!", "you're against fat people", and the obvious homophobia. 

 

Like I understand issues occurring in real life, but Tumblr is just all out crazy with it. Lol.


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#11 goldenarms

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 06:38 PM



 

Like I've been through SNS posts, and if you even attempt to put NS on a pedestal to SNS, you're homophobic, support manipulative abuse, and even to as far as supporting genocide (like my bad Sasuke isn't that likable of a character). You don't know how many NS blogs I left because they decided to become an SNS supporter. I've even seen pro NH/SS join SNS. 

 

Genocide? lolwut Support manipulative abuse? I've "read" a SNS fic that had Sasuke effectively raping Naruto in every room of the Academy. One of the comments of this fic was, literally: "Yeah! That's the Sasuke we know and love!" and that's just one of many supporting the story, general consensus being "That ain't rape; that's just surprise buttsecks you didn't know you wanted."

 

 I had so wanted to take that story and CTRL+H out Naruto's name, replaced it with, say, Hinata, post the link to the original story, and see how well they carried that tune. But anyway...

 

If you're feeling brave, ask a SNS shipper why don't they just genderbend one of the characters. Just make certain it's not a board you really like visiting, though, when you do this.



#12 DeathGodMack

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 04:42 AM

If modern feminists want to help women then how about they stop trying to project their "values" on cultures they don't understand and try to help women who actually need help. Tumblr feminists literately bully people on tumblr to the point of suicide because they have a different of opinion or make art they believe doesn't conform to their personal gender profiles. Modern feminism have been corrupted by people trying to police the internet and force their pc on everyone.

This tumblr post proves how bad they are even more,

http://listenup2016....mist-regressive


Edited by DeathGodMack, 26 September 2016 - 04:52 AM.

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