19441 replies to this topic

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

Yes, and I think in the end he wasn't man enough to stand behind the empowered woman he created. He had to dial her back because she was 'too severe.' Of all the characters Sakura is the one he has consistently defended or apologized for in interviews.

 

She is the only one that is picked on and picked over. She is the only one that gets this treatment, not Naruto who is never tested, nor Sasuke who is never responsible for his truly terrible behaviors. And not Hinata who just passively worships the hero, to the point that her only actions in the story are for him, and him only. None of them get an iota of attention, but always Sakura.

 

I think on one hand Kishimoto is wrote her as a modern, determined, honest girl, as he said in an interview long ago. But I think outside pressure and his own discomfort with the idea of an empowered woman taking the lead won out in the end. He couldn't take it. It didn't fit in with whatever stereotype for women's roles he had in his mind.

 

And now, Kishimoto's not only demoted Sakura to the Part 1 girl with a crush who accepts Sasuke no matter how badly he's treated her (699), he's given the final illustration of her in the manga as a housekeeper/housewife (700). He's put her in a role that's against everything she ever wanted in the manga. And now in the movie, her biggest promotion was in the release of her sketches with Naruto's in Kishimoto's final troll pairing them together for the last time. We haven't seen her since then. It's been all about Hinata.

 

He's so uncomfortable with Sakura's empowerment, he's got to render her irrelevant to the storyline. It's all about passive Hinata, in a passive romance movie that sounds like a terrible fanfic. She's kidnapped and that's what awakens Naruto's hidden feelings? Come on, how much more passive can you get?

 

At some point he didn't just decide to make the ending NH. He decided to use Sakura to dupe the audience into sticking around till then end. He even used his main character as a plot device, with his devotion to Sakura registering a loyalty with fans that Kishimoto knew he would never honor. 

 

Only Sasuke gets what he never wanted. And Hinata gets what she doesn't deserve. 

 

Sakura and Naruto are left out in the cold.

 

You're right. Kishimoto knew exactly what he was doing, building up NS over and over again, reinforcing it with parallels and moments together. He was building it up for a bait and switch, using half his fan base to make some extra money on the opposing shippers.

 

In the end, I don't think Kishimoto supports any pairing. Because he didn't care to develop SS or NH at all. I really think he just doesn't care.

 

The movie animators are doing this movie, not Kishimoto. And the marketing promos are coming from other people, not him. So the release of a book that sums up 700 chapters in 15 pages, connecting the dots for a cheat sheet to an NH romance that was never there, means nothing to him. Because he doesn't care. About NS, NH or SS.

 

If he cared he could have developed any of it in the intervening years. But he didn't.

 

The only thing he's proved that he does care about is not making the female roles to strong or self-actualized. Mass murder, obscene violence, emotional rejection, psychopathy, abuse of children, medical experiments, even stealing eyeballs — all things that Kishimoto has never once apologized for. But Sakura? She's 'too severe.' 

 

Sakura's not the problem. Kishimoto is.

 

I wish I could like this post more than once. Absolutely spot on.

[Nate River]

Sadly false one would have save him from making into a sexist. Oh well.

Because this has been so bad, I am unable to be sad watching him set his own work on fire. I don't even need to make the case this sucks. He's doing all the work for me.

The real problem with those "Cultural" differences is half the people talking about them are weeboo's who idolize Japanese cultural while omitting the fact that its got its own damn problems. They'll sit there and tell you the Japanese are so nice and polite while ignoring that half the time they are only nice and polite to one another.

Also, biggest Rape culture I have ever seen from a tiny island. Its disturbing.

I also hate it when such things are used as an excuse to treat people like kitten, which is how it is being used right now.

[rocci]

Sugar coating this kitten mangaka.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Because this has been so bad, I am unable to be sad watching him set his own work on fire. I don't even need to make the case this sucks. He's doing all the work for me.


I also hate it when such things are used as an excuse to treat people like kitten, which is how it is being used right now.

Wait, am I the one using it to treat people like kitten?   because I didn't mean it like that.

[tonga1]

wtf that guy really think in that way about womans? really kishi must be a horrible person, i hope he fail in his uncoming projects is the least he deserve

[Nate River]

Wait, am I the one using it to treat people like kitten?   because I didn't mean it like that.

No. I agree with what you said.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

No. I agree with what you said.

That's a relief, I almost felt bad for half a second. 

[James S Cassidy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the long post - but all these comments are spot on.

 

WE DIDN'T READ IT WRONG. Please don't buy into that. This is exactly why this movie has been made.

 

Every creator makes choices about how h/she wants their work to be interpreted. NaruSaku is handsdown the most supported, foreshadowed and developed pairing in the whole 15-year creation. If you doubt this any of that development, then look at the fact that Naruto never stopped loving Sakura. Ever. Not once. Even his last words in 698, as the Naruto we knew and recognized, were "Thank you, Sakura-chan," words which are only ever used in a statement of love in this manga.

 

As part of a huge international brand, Kishimoto the author is a very small part of the larger picture. He is a cog in a very big machine. He's an important cog, to be sure, but he's really, really small in comparison to the whole thing. The only part he has any control over is the manga. That's it.

 

These are all handled by other staff and outside sources:

 

Manga - publishing, distribution, marketing, and the merchandise plus its advertising and marketing

 

Movie - written plot, casting, animation, marketing, scheduling of interviews and advertisements, ticket sale and promotions, and sales of merchandise, plus its advertising and marketing

 

- and this excludes all other ancillary staff necessary for getting that manga out the door.

 

Even though Kishimoto is sitting atop the one of the world's most popular manga, he has very little control of what's underneath him. And if its determined that the brand will make more money going one direction instead of another, then that's the direction they're going to go, whether Kishimoto wants to or not. 

 

And there is no way Kishimoto would ever be allowed to go out into the world and speak against the direction. Not if he wants to keep being on the payroll. And he knows understands that completely. Naruto is a BIG BUSINESS.

 

My point to this is that the manga, the one thing that Kishimoto has the most control over, was written for NS. Over and over and over again. Even up to its ambiguous end. I think at some point he knew that the ending was going to have to go toward NH. Whether that was 8 years ago or 2 we may never know. But he celarly had opportunities to build in NH and SS in a way that it didn't feel like a betrayal. Yet he still didn't. He continued to reinforce Naruto's connection to Sakura. 

 

I think he wrote what he wanted, sprinkled in enough Hinata interaction to string that story along (knowing there would be a movie in the future about it), and when it was time to end the manga, he tacked on the last two chapters. There is ZERO SasukeSakura development. There is ZERO mutual NarutoHinata development. There is consistent Naruto Sakura development.

 

Honestly, I think Kishimoto just gave up on his story. It's clear to everyone that any semblance of a plot stopped after the Pain arc. The war arc was nothing but filler character after filler character, with the sick train wreck of Obito's story in the middle. 

 

But Kishimoto could have developed any ship he wanted, yet he didn't. He chose to steadily build on NS. That lie of omission — not developing SS or NH when he had years to do it — tells us something: That NS was not as far behind as he claims it was. And interviews that sound conspicuously like damage control are not going to change that. His actions here speak a lot louder than his words.

 

He may be a sexist human being, and he be an author who royally f*d up his story in the end. But the NS development was there, consistently, steadily. From beginning to end. And that was Kishimoto's choice to include it, reinforce it, parallel it and foreshadow it.

 

And if this was a truly happy ending, then Kishimoto would have drawn a happy Naruto finally achieving his goal. Hokage with Sakura on his arm. But he didn't get it. And so Kishimoto didn't have the stones to illustrate anyone getting a romantically happy ending together. Not NH, nor SS. He just let it all fall apart, and the movie people will put together a new storyline out of the pieces that are left over.

 

I feel a lot of things about this ending: heartbroken, angry, disgusted, etc. But one thing I absolutely don't feel is wrong. NS is there, all the way through the manga. And the statement that fans were reading it wrong is just a lie to sell people on the movie and the new series that will spring from it.

Well said, Tricksie. Well said.
 

Yeah, I really don't know what to make out of those "cultural differences" arguments. i doubt that the Japanese are that traditional. If I only knew a Japanese person I could ask right away...

I don't understand the entire culture myself, but what I do know is this "cultural differences" argument is wrong. Especially when it comes to Anime/manga. I do havae Japanese friends and most downright say "don't look to Japanese anime/manga on what the cultural is because you're gonna be completely lost." You can research all you want and read history, but you will never really know what the cultural is until you actually talk to the people who live it.

I have videos of them interviewing japanese men and women about views and they all tell this different story that most seem to be pushing.




 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 November 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[六道仙人]

when a "translator" examines a jap statement kanji by kanji, that makes my day... I am talking about the translator who said that Sakura would be a horrible woman if she steals Naruto from her.

[rinali24]

Sorry, but the "cultural differences" argument is the same as the "you have to be respectful towards Kishi because he wrote this manga for 15 years" argument in my eyes. Super weak, makes no sense, and is in general, a bad argument. 

[hinataiscreepy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the long post - but all these comments are spot on.

 

WE DIDN'T READ IT WRONG. Please don't buy into that. This is exactly why this movie has been made.

 

Every creator makes choices about how h/she wants their work to be interpreted. NaruSaku is handsdown the most supported, foreshadowed and developed pairing in the whole 15-year creation. If you doubt this any of that development, then look at the fact that Naruto never stopped loving Sakura. Ever. Not once. Even his last words in 698, as the Naruto we knew and recognized, were "Thank you, Sakura-chan," words which are only ever used in a statement of love in this manga.

 

As part of a huge international brand, Kishimoto the author is a very small part of the larger picture. He is a cog in a very big machine. He's an important cog, to be sure, but he's really, really small in comparison to the whole thing. The only part he has any control over is the manga. That's it.

 

These are all handled by other staff and outside sources:

 

Manga - publishing, distribution, marketing, and the merchandise plus its advertising and marketing

 

Movie - written plot, casting, animation, marketing, scheduling of interviews and advertisements, ticket sale and promotions, and sales of merchandise, plus its advertising and marketing

 

- and this excludes all other ancillary staff necessary for getting that manga out the door.

 

Even though Kishimoto is sitting atop the one of the world's most popular manga, he has very little control of what's underneath him. And if its determined that the brand will make more money going one direction instead of another, then that's the direction they're going to go, whether Kishimoto wants to or not. 

 

And there is no way Kishimoto would ever be allowed to go out into the world and speak against the direction. Not if he wants to keep being on the payroll. And he knows understands that completely. Naruto is a BIG BUSINESS.

 

My point to this is that the manga, the one thing that Kishimoto has the most control over, was written for NS. Over and over and over again. Even up to its ambiguous end. I think at some point he knew that the ending was going to have to go toward NH. Whether that was 8 years ago or 2 we may never know. But he celarly had opportunities to build in NH and SS in a way that it didn't feel like a betrayal. Yet he still didn't. He continued to reinforce Naruto's connection to Sakura. 

 

I think he wrote what he wanted, sprinkled in enough Hinata interaction to string that story along (knowing there would be a movie in the future about it), and when it was time to end the manga, he tacked on the last two chapters. There is ZERO SasukeSakura development. There is ZERO mutual NarutoHinata development. There is consistent Naruto Sakura development.

 

Honestly, I think Kishimoto just gave up on his story. It's clear to everyone that any semblance of a plot stopped after the Pain arc. The war arc was nothing but filler character after filler character, with the sick train wreck of Obito's story in the middle. 

 

But Kishimoto could have developed any ship he wanted, yet he didn't. He chose to steadily build on NS. That lie of omission — not developing SS or NH when he had years to do it — tells us something: That NS was not as far behind as he claims it was. And interviews that sound conspicuously like damage control are not going to change that. His actions here speak a lot louder than his words.

 

He may be a sexist human being, and he be an author who royally f*d up his story in the end. But the NS development was there, consistently, steadily. From beginning to end. And that was Kishimoto's choice to include it, reinforce it, parallel it and foreshadow it.

 

And if this was a truly happy ending, then Kishimoto would have drawn a happy Naruto finally achieving his goal. Hokage with Sakura on his arm. But he didn't get it. And so Kishimoto didn't have the stones to illustrate anyone getting a romantically happy ending together. Not NH, nor SS. He just let it all fall apart, and the movie people will put together a new storyline out of the pieces that are left over.

 

I feel a lot of things about this ending: heartbroken, angry, disgusted, etc. But one thing I absolutely don't feel is wrong. NS is there, all the way through the manga. And the statement that fans were reading it wrong is just a lie to sell people on the movie and the new series that will spring from it.

 

This

 

- Sakura not wanting to break Hinata's heart is kitten of the highest order. She did not seem that upset when Sakura hugged Naruto in a romantic way in front of everyone (people effing blushed). She actually looked happy and could live with it.

 

- Hinata slapping Naruto is just out of characters and had zero build up (much  like her confession). Sakura should have been the one to do that.

 

- I thought Karin was the perfect match for Sasuke. She is so hardcore Saske fangirl that it actually becomes comical and makes it work. Its just a hell lot more fun than Sakura's submissive, overdramatic and forced romance with sasuke.

 

- I think Neji was hinted to possibly end with Hinata in his flashback which could have been a way to resolve the curse family tradition. I think Kishi killed Neji to imitate a death in One Piece and making Naruhina canon by killing him. Kenji tara ( former assistant and author of rock lee sd) seems aware of what were the real end pairings.

 

- There were ovious signs that Kishi did not care anymore in the war arc. He literally stopped drawing character cover for each chapter during  this arc. A lot of scenes were unfinished and in the sketching process. His drawing shows the signs that he is tired and sick of his series. Most of the women did not even look like women anymore.

 

It seems Kishi is throwing hints that it was not the real ending and is forced to BS to the max to sell the new film.

 

[DattebayoXShannaro]

http://sparda3g.tumb...cript-of-naruto

 

What are SP thinking by having Naruto react this way to the movie's script?  It may be intended to be for comedy, but it comes off as counter productive.

[Xan]

 

What are SP thinking by having Naruto react this way to the movie's script?  It may be intended to be for comedy, but it comes off as counter productive.

Cause they know the movie defies all logic, that why naruto is sweating cause how is he suppose to make the asspull look legit

Edited by Xan, 21 November 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[Tiller]

 

What are SP thinking by having Naruto react this way to the movie's script?  It may be intended to be for comedy, but it comes off as counter productive.

What episode from the anime is that from?

Edited by Tiller, 21 November 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[Aizen-Sama]

So NS didn't happen because Sakura was being a good friend to Hinata? She didn't feel cruel about Sasuke all these years.

BS! This is on some dumb kitten...

Such kitten Kikitten saying Sakura didn't want to be "cruel" to Hinata by stealing Naruto away...
SO SASUKE CAN BREAK NARUTO'S HEART BY GETTING WITH SAKURA?
SO SAKURA CAN BREAK ROCK LEE'S AND INO'S HEARTS BY GETTING WITH SASUKE?
WHAT ABOUT KARIN'S HEART?
WHY IS ONLY HINATA SINGLED OUT FOR kittens SAKE?!
Pathetic...a pairing only happening because someone chose not to interfere. This only proves that Hinata was only Naruto's 2nd choice and he would've dropped her in an instant if Sakura reciprocated.
Sakura haters should be kissing her ass right now because naruhina only happened because Sakura was "too nice".
Sakura couldn't look like a two-timer by gettting over Sasuke and she also couldn't break fan favorite Hinata-sama's heart. Notice how all the judgements are on her only? Criticism is the only thing that kept her from getting with Naruto. It makes me sick.

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 21 November 2014 - 09:38 PM.

[Lilac]

lol The majority of the translations I've seen don't say Sakura did it because of Hinata, it says she'd be awful for essentially being fickle....

[Nar123]

lol The majority of the translations I've seen don't say Sakura did it because of Hinata, it says she'd be awful for essentially being fickle....

But Sasuke, basically the essence of what means "fickle " gets out with none of the hate!

[Nefertieh]

lol The majority of the translations I've seen don't say Sakura did it because of Hinata, it says she'd be awful for essentially being fickle....

 

Right, because there is nothing worse than a woman who strays from her man, even though they aren't even together, even though he finds her insufferable, even though their history is riddled with him verbally abusing her when not trying to kill her several times. We can't have her move on from Sasuke, that would make her a slut!

[Aizen-Sama]

lol The majority of the translations I've seen don't say Sakura did it because of Hinata, it says she'd be awful for essentially being fickle....

So moving on from an abusive assh*le to a nicer man means you're "fickle"? So disgusting lol and Kishimoto's reason is screwed up on so many levels.
Basically Sakura was afraid of being judged. That's why NS didn't happen. Is that what Kishimoto's telling us?
He didn't even mention letting Sasuke completely off the hook after his murder attempts on his friends and yet he's concerned about how the heroine will look for switching from one guy to the next. I guess Naruto doesn't count for switching from Sakura to Hinata eh?
He didn't want Sakura to break Hinata's heart but it was ok for Sasuke to break Naruto's? It's ok for Sakura to break the main character's heart if it's just to protect Hinata-sama?
The hypocrisy and double standards is so glaringly obvious. Sakura had to make all the sacrifices.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Funny how that's the reason. The sexist reason. I am shocked. A little. Maybe. I don't know. You would think he would say something "reasonable" even though manga keeps denying. In the end, everyone got screwed and the answer only makes him look like a guy we shouldn't pity anymore. More of his wife. But oh well.