31572 replies to this topic

[Toy Ninja]

We see a similar line of thought in Sakura's speech in the last where she says it impossible for a girl to move on from their first crush.

 

 

Ugh I had forgotten about that.. I’d go back and watch it for the sake of discussion but I wouldn’t touch that dumpster fire of a film again with a 40 foot sword of Nunoboko.

[DrK]

The "terrible woman" thing comes off as someone constantly used that justification as to why she can't give up on Sasuke to him. When he needed to justify why he went with it. He used that since he figured that what the fans must think since someone was telling him that. We see a similar line of thought in Sakura's speech in the last where she says it impossible for a girl to move on from their first crush.

Well it would have been his original idea that she did in fact have to give up on Sasuke. And it just seems ridiculous that someone was able to present the argument to him that it would be worse, in light of Sakura's development, if she ended up with Naruto rather than Sasuke. Because no convincing argument for that exists.

[Bail o' Lies]

Well it would have been his original idea that she did in fact have to give up on Sasuke. And it just seems ridiculous that someone was able to present the argument to him that it would be worse, in light of Sakura's development, if she ended up with Naruto rather than Sasuke. Because no convincing argument for that exists.

To be honest, it sounds like a reasoning that someone gave at the spur of the moment in them middle of an argument without having fully thought it out. Then they decided to double down on it instead of thinking it through, and try to explain their view better.

 

I sometime do that, even in the summaries, which is why I recognize it.

 

...I can't find the post saying the last was planned three years before the ending. To be honest I don't think The last was made canon when it was thought up, but later on. I think it was more near the end of Naruto. A bunch of executives realized their international cash cow was about to end with nothing to replace it. So they wanted a sequel to continue the cash flow. Eventually, it was thought up that the Last Movie should be canon, and used to announce the sequel. The movie was already nH, and since it was now canon SP refused to change it. So Kishimoto had to change the manga. Then the executives set up the scheduled after the ending to maximize profits. Then the backlash hit, they spent a year trying to save their cash cow, but stopped after MHA/DBS/BC/...ECT took off. Since everyone but SP had new cash cow that had replaced Naruto. So they just focus on those, and pretend Boruto doesn't exist.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 30 September 2018 - 10:59 AM.

[DrK]

To be honest, it sounds like a reasoning that someone gave at the spur of the moment in them middle of an argument with having fully thought it out. Then they decided to double down on it instead of thinking it through, and try to explain their view better.

It's up there with stupid crap like "Sakura loved Naruto like a brother" and "Karin nearly ruined the entire story". Except Kishimoto said it so it is practically canon.

[jak123]

It's up there with stupid crap like "Sakura loved Naruto like a brother" and "Karin nearly ruined the entire story". Except Kishimoto said it so it is practically canon.

Which are dumb arguments. Sakura clearly liked him more than a brother and honestly Karin had more influence on Sasuke's development than either Naruto or Sakura.

[Toy Ninja]

Hinata as a character, I wouldn't call sexist, but at the same time, she's an insult to girls. Her literal purpose in life was to get Naruto's D and honestly, that is pretty sexist in it's own way. One could argue that "Just because she loves a guy doesn't mean it's sexist". But...that's literally all there is to her. She has shown zero ambition in anything that doesn't concern Naruto. She doesn't show any real care for her teammates, her clan, her family, anything. 
That's why, even though I hate her guts, the best path for her would have been to move on from Naruto and become a proper heir to her clan. Anyone who says otherwise really doesn't care about Hinata and all they care about is their self inserting or ship.
 

 

I agree with you about her being written in a sexist way. I mean.. completely defining yourself through your relationship is really unhealthy. This is never brought up though. It says a lot about the kind of person naruto became that he would want to be with someone like that.

 

Other then that the relationship is so hollow.. They don't really know each-other in the manga. They don't share experiences together. There is no mutual understanding. They hardly communicate. Its one of the most unrealistic and awkwardly forced marriages I have ever seen in manga. (second to Mashiro and Miho in Bakuman). I also get this weird purity culture vibe from it. It's like people love the concept of perfect love but can't reconcile that with the realities of an actual relationship. So what we are shown is painfully idealized performance and everything else is erased. It's like something out of Victorian literature.   

 

Sakura...well...the only sexist thing Kishimoto did to her was the whole "She would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke". That was straight up sexist. There is zero denying that SasuSaku is abusive, mild or not. And it goes both ways. Kishimoto revealed that Sakura followed him around and kept pushing her feelings onto him until he gave up. The Sakura novel backs this up with a passage that says something among the lines of "No matter how many times I'm rejected, I'll keep pushing my feelings!" Not the exact words, but still the same weight. It turned Sakura into a horrible person and in a way, turned Sasuke into a victim. He basically had to say 'fine' in order to make her leave him alone. Apparently it worked. After he knocked her up and she spawned Salad, she stayed in the village while he was free to roam outside without Sakura nagging him. No wonder he never came back to the village. It sounds like they're both at fault and the problems go both ways. Man, SasuSaku really is a huge train wreak.

 

 

 

 

The fact that Sakura keeps pursuing Sasuke after repeated rejections and ignoring his obvious scorn for her makes it seem like she doesn't really care about his feelings, or respect his boundaries. He clearly didn't respect hers.. he just tried to murder her and everyone she knows and loves.. multiple times. The whole "She would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke" kind of carries this message that if you are a girl and you love a boy who is violent towards you, if you keep on forgiving and loving them then they will change for the better. In truth this way of thinking only perpetuates co-dependency and vicious cycles of abuse.

 

 

We are told (not shown of course) that Sakura got what she wanted though.. she got to have cold mechanical sex once with an emotionally-dead murderer..

Edited by Toy Ninja, 29 September 2018 - 02:47 PM.

[Phantom_999]

If I remember right, there was something that said 'The Last' was written or put into development three years before the ending of the manga. I don't know how true that is.

As a girl, in terms of the 'sexism' argument...Hinata as a character, I wouldn't call sexist, but at the same time, she's an insult to girls. Her literal purpose in life was to get Naruto's D and honestly, that is pretty sexist in it's own way. One could argue that "Just because she loves a guy doesn't mean it's sexist". But...that's literally all there is to her. She has shown zero ambition in anything that doesn't concern Naruto. She doesn't show any real care for her teammates, her clan, her family, anything. 
That's why, even though I hate her guts, the best path for her would have been to move on from Naruto and become a proper heir to her clan. Anyone who says otherwise really doesn't care about Hinata and all they care about is their self inserting or ship.

Sakura...well...the only sexist thing Kishimoto did to her was the whole "She would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke". That was straight up sexist. There is zero denying that SasuSaku is abusive, mild or not. And it goes both ways. Kishimoto revealed that Sakura followed him around and kept pushing her feelings onto him until he gave up. The Sakura novel backs this up with a passage that says something among the lines of "No matter how many times I'm rejected, I'll keep pushing my feelings!" Not the exact words, but still the same weight. It turned Sakura into a horrible person and in a way, turned Sasuke into a victim. He basically had to say 'fine' in order to make her leave him alone. Apparently it worked. After he knocked her up and she spawned Salad, she stayed in the village while he was free to roam outside without Sakura nagging him. No wonder he never came back to the village. It sounds like they're both at fault and the problems go both ways. Man, SasuSaku really is a huge train wreak.

 

Apparently in the burrito anime, all the females from the rookie 12 are still active shinobi, except Hinata. She straight up got what she wanted, didn't have to try and impress Naruto anymore and gave up on being a Ninja to be a housewife instead. And we all saw how well that went. To the point Sakura had to save her sorry hide again, Ino had to protect her, ect. Useless as always.
That 'Hyuuga Princess' thing died off super fast. Just had to make her super powerful for her fairytale movie and then it's brushed off. 

Both pairings are huge train wreaks, the whole ending is a giant nuke explosion and I really just can't comprehend how anyone could even be remotely okay with it.

 

Exactly, it is a cultural difference thing and to try call a culture sexist and the like is unreasonable, much less trying to change it. But never the less the behavior on both Hinata and Sakura (regarding Sasuke, at least) is insulting to girls as you say, and also emotionally/socially damaging. And the most unfortunate part is that to this day that sort of behavior is enforced and encouraged in some cultures

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 September 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[Moon_Girl]

Don't get me wrong, I understand there's cultural differences. However, Kishimoto kind of did this to himself by trying to appeal to the Western fans. If you're going to murder your own story and characters because western fans won't shut up about NH/SS, then you'd best be ready for the backlash. Especially when it comes to your weak reasoning and lies.
 

[Phantom_999]

Oh yeah I'm not defending him. I agree with what you say completely

[Bail o' Lies]

Don't get me wrong, I understand there's cultural differences. However, Kishimoto kind of did this to himself by trying to appeal to the Western fans. If you're going to murder your own story and characters because western fans won't shut up about NH/SS, then you'd best be ready for the backlash. Especially when it comes to your weak reasoning and lies.

Their is nothing wrong with trying to appeal to what you think is your biggest fanbase. It was how he went about it. Trying to appeal to the fanbase with only knowledge of what the fanbase wanted from a few Hinata-obsessed Fanatical Anti-Sakura Youtubers that was the problem.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 October 2018 - 04:36 AM.

[KClaws_2]

Thinking about it now, I think it is pretty much impossible to pin down. You can't say that the ending had to be changed after x event, like for instance the Pain arc, for the reason that there would be no way he would have written X scene with NH in mind, because there are baffling scenes like the one with Minato even well into the war arc.

 

One can assume the war arc because of how badly Sakura was utilized, and even drawn, but even then that could be Kishi's lack of enthusiasm with Sakura in general by that point. It's hard to say how much that had to do with the decision he ultimately made.

That's the thing. If NH was planned, why did he keep throwing in NS moments, because even HE had to know they would have been perceived as romantic except amongst the most fanatic NH shippers. It makes even less sense if Sakura was given up on the heroine; if I came to that conclusion, I just wouldn't have her as anything more than a background character (although it could be argued that's EXACTLY what she became)

 

I have another theory about the inconsistency between what was shown and what we ended up with: Kishimoto had no idea SP was producing the Last, and close to 680, they sprung it up on him. Kishimoto then felt obligated to go with it.

 

Of course, the problem with this theory is that other mangaka had their stories animated and changed, and they just went about their own business.

 

What can I say, Kishimoto is just this odd exception among MANY creators, and not in a good way.

[DrK]

That's the thing. If NH was planned, why did he keep throwing in NS moments, because even HE had to know they would have been perceived as romantic except amongst the most fanatic NH shippers. It makes even less sense if Sakura was given up on the heroine; if I came to that conclusion, I just wouldn't have her as anything more than a background character (although it could be argued that's EXACTLY what she became)

 

I have another theory about the inconsistency between what was shown and what we ended up with: Kishimoto had no idea SP was producing the Last, and close to 680, they sprung it up on him. Kishimoto then felt obligated to go with it.

 

That timeline is dubious at best. I don't know chapter numbers but Naruto (the character) more or less committed to Hinata in the war arc. There is a disgusting finality to the scene where they hold hands, saying she has been by his side the whole time, and the completely retarded attempt to save her from the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Which of course makes The Last make even less sense in retrospect as Kishimoto portrayed that Hinata was that important to him (somehow) but he doesn't understand why he should spend time with her.

[Bail o' Lies]

That timeline is dubious at best. I don't know chapter numbers but Naruto (the character) more or less committed to Hinata in the war arc. There is a disgusting finality to the scene where they hold hands, saying she has been by his side the whole time, and the completely retarded attempt to save her from the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Which of course makes The Last make even less sense in retrospect as Kishimoto portrayed that Hinata was that important to him (somehow) but he doesn't understand why he should spend time with her.

The problem with that is about 15 chapters from;"The scene that decided the goddess would get what she rightfully deserved, and was always destine to obtain." Sakura gives a speech in chapter 630 chewing out the army for putting to much on Naruto shoulders as well as some other stuff, and the next chapter Minato asks if she is Naruto's girlfriend. If the pairings were decided by the hand holding then why do that? Even kishimoto isn't that stupid.

 

Also according to what Derock found out the Neji's death was because a SP staff member wouldn't stop whining until Kishimoto finally killed him. It is more likely the hand holding, and hinata's speech was to give meaning to the death.

 

The last act Hinata did before the ending was to trip on some rocks.

 

Also one of Kishimoto's friends on Twitter said after the ending that it was only decided 3 months before the ending.

 

Overall its more likely that executives right before the ending decided they wanted a sequel to keep the gravy train going. At some point they decided to make the Last canon. The last probably already had Hinata as the love interest. SP refused to change it. So, kishimoto had to change the manga to fit it.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 16 October 2018 - 04:35 AM.

[DrK]

The problem with that is about 15 chapters from;"The scene that decided the goddess would get what she rightfully deserved, and was always destine to obtain." Sakura gives a speech in chapter 630 chewing out the army for putting to much on Naruto shoulders as well as some other stuff, and the next chapter Minato asks if she is Naruto's girlfriend. If the pairings were decided by the hand holding then why do that? Even kishimoto isn't that stupid.

Storyboarding laziness. He wrote the scene(s) and thought it was a good scene and he didn't want to come up with something else even after it doesn't make as much sense. I run into this when I write also. It's not what happens in that scene, but how it happens. It was ham fistedly introduced to support it last minute.

 

I can't really envision Naruto ending up with Sakura after that horrific scene to be honest. But maybe it was hard to envision him ending up with Hinata after Minato. The mistake was assuming that Kishimoto had any integrity at all.

Edited by DrK, 02 October 2018 - 09:41 AM.

[Moon_Girl]

Their is nothing wrong with trying to appeal to what you think is your biggest fanbase. It was how he went about it. Trying to appeal to the fanbase with only knowledge of what the fanbase wanted from a few Hinata-obsessed Fanatical Anti-Sakura Youtubers that was the problem.

Well, in all truth, by the time Kishimoto was shown those videos (by his editors or whoever), it was far too late to make NH make sense. Far, FAR too late. I think Kishimoto knew that, but gave into the pressure regardless.

I do like to think the how horrible the pairings turned out (SS being abusive on both ends with the father never home, NH showing that Naruto would rather be 'busy' at his office during a time of peace than spend another second with his family; his brat of a son, ugly spawn that KO'd him on his most important day and mindless doll of a housewife) is because of spite. 

[Shadow1275]

Haven't been on here in a while but I recently got back into Naruto bc I've been building a NAruto DnD campaign for my friends.

 

I sincerely doubt that Kishimoto really is so terrible at romance that he could rush NH the way he did. He wrote Mina/Kushi, Sai/Ino, Shika/Temari, Asuma/Kurenai, Jiraiya/Tsunade, etc. The fact that the majority of these are acknowledged as solid romances shows that Kishimoto understands it. And keep in mind that some of these were formed after Yahagi, the best editor, left. Several serious NaruSaku moments also happened after Yahagi left.

 

One of the things I despise about the Japanese fanbase is their love of SasuSaku. I just don't get it, sure maybe the fan girls go gaga for the bad boy, but SasuSaku has literally as many panels as Naruhina, and certainly nothing close to NaruSaku. 

 

Imo it was a last minute choice based on the perception of NaruHina's popularity and SasuSaku's actual popularity in Japan, which is actually read as Sasuke + Insert Japanese Fangirl here. It's clear that Kishimoto tried, albeit stupidly, to improve Sakura's popularity. He claimed he was trying to make her look more pretty, and later on he tried to give her a last minute powerup through the POwer Seal, Katsuyu, and outright stating that she was on Naruto and Sasuke's level, or that she had caught up. But eventually he got the order, realized it was too late to build Sakura up, and said f it then threw her into the mud and tossed Hinata her unowned crown. Unfortunately for him now everyone wants Naruto and especially Boruto gone. Double4Anime and Forneverworld who went to the Last premier together currently hate eachother. Sawyer has disappeared like a fart in the wind. The only Naruto focused project, Shinobi Strikers, has died down pretty quickly and one search of the Boruto animated series on Youtube will draw hundreds of videos complaining about it.

 

I used to think that the greatest tragedy of Naruto was that NaruSaku had died. Then I thought it was that the fanbase which had loved it had turned against it, even part1 and the beginning of part 2. I always hated Sasuke's character, but after a couple years I have come to understand that he actually made a great amount of sense. Now though, I realize that Naruto has a lot of good in it even though it ended poorly, and the greatest thing about it is the lesson it gives. I am now writing my own series, having created my own world with its own characters, and I will carry my experience with Naruto close to the chest for it has much to teach. I will always enjoy Naruto, I will never enjoy Boruto and I thank Kishimoto for providing a truly unique and interesting world.

Edited by Shadow1275, 03 October 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Storyboarding laziness. He wrote the scene(s) and thought it was a good scene and he didn't want to come up with something else even after it doesn't make as much sense. I run into this when I write also. It's not what happens in that scene, but how it happens. It was ham fist-ed-ly introduced to support it last minute.

 

I can't really envision Naruto ending up with Sakura after that horrific scene to be honest. But maybe it was hard to envision him ending up with Hinata after Minato. The mistake was assuming that Kishimoto had any integrity at all.

But a storyboarding goof this bad? "We decided to make Hinata the new love interest. *16 chapter later* Naruto's father ask Sakura if she is Naruto's girlfriend, which Naruto says more or less, compares her to his wife, and then he asked her to take care of his son -which is a Japanese way of saying he approves the girl to marry his son." Really and no one catches it?

 

Well, in all truth, by the time Kishimoto was shown those videos (by his editors or whoever), it was far too late to make NH make sense. Far, FAR too late. I think Kishimoto knew that, but gave into the pressure regardless.

I do like to think the how horrible the pairings turned out (SS being abusive on both ends with the father never home, NH showing that Naruto would rather be 'busy' at his office during a time of peace than spend another second with his family; his brat of a son, ugly spawn that KO'd him on his most important day and mindless doll of a housewife) is because of spite. 

From what I recall from the interviews they were showing him those through out the war arc to convince him to accept Hinata as the love interest. He likely rejected them at first, but once the ending was decided he used the stuff people told him to justify the ending in the interviews.

 

Spite is likely part of it. The other part is this is how Kishimoto thought the pairing would turn out naturally.

Haven't been on here in a while but I recently got back into Naruto bc I've been building a NAruto DnD campaign for my friends.

 

I sincerely doubt that Kishimoto really is so terrible at romance that he could rush NH the way he did. He wrote Mina/Kushi, Sai/Ino, Shika/Temari, Asuma/Kurenai, Jiraiya/Tsunade, etc. The fact that the majority of these are acknowledged as solid romances shows that Kishimoto understands it. And keep in mind that some of these were formed after Yahagi, the best editor, left. Several serious NaruSaku moments also happened after Yahagi left.

 

One of the things I despise about the Japanese fanbase is their love of SasuSaku. I just don't get it, sure maybe the fan girls go gaga for the bad boy, but SasuSaku has literally as many panels as Naruhina, and certainly nothing close to NaruSaku. 

 

Imo it was a last minute choice based on the perception of NaruHina's popularity and SasuSaku's actual popularity in Japan, which is actually read as Sasuke + Insert Japanese Fangirl here. It's clear that Kishimoto tried, albeit stupidly, to improve Sakura's popularity. He claimed he was trying to make her look more pretty, and later on he tried to give her a last minute powerup through the POwer Seal, Katsuyu, and outright stating that she was on Naruto and Sasuke's level, or that she had caught up. But eventually he got the order, realized it was too late to build Sakura up, and said f it then threw her into the mud and tossed Hinata her unowned crown. Unfortunately for him now everyone wants Naruto and especially Boruto gone. Double4Anime and Forneverworld who went to the Last premier together currently hate eachother. Sawyer has disappeared like a fart in the wind. The only Naruto focused project, Shinobi Strikers, has died down pretty quickly and one search of the Boruto animated series on Youtube will draw hundreds of videos complaining about it.

 

I used to think that the greatest tragedy of Naruto was that NaruSaku had died. Then I thought it was that the fanbase which had loved it had turned against it, even part1 and the beginning of part 2. I always hated Sasuke's character, but after a couple years I have come to understand that he actually made a great amount of sense. Now though, I realize that Naruto has a lot of good in it even though it ended poorly, and the greatest thing about it is the lesson it gives. I am now writing my own series, having created my own world with its own characters, and I will carry my experience with Naruto close to the chest for it has much to teach. I will always enjoy Naruto, I will never enjoy Boruto and I thank Kishimoto for providing a truly unique and interesting world.

You really need to fix that image.

 

As for SS: 

 

"You haven't read many shoujo manga have you? If this was a Shoujo manga called Sakura they would barely have to change any of the characters (other then making Sasuke actually attracted to Sakura.) Sakura is the exuberant girl with a lot of self doubt that is starting a new life, Sasuke is the sexy dark-hair mysterious rich popular introvert that only smiles at main girl, and Naruto is the blond-hair extrovert nice guy that has feelings for main girl but everyone knows he not going to get with her because the feeling between main girl and dark-hair are too strong. Read any shoujo manga and you will 3/4 times see that love triangle is this.

 

That's why Kishimoto called SS clique, because it looks like a romance ripped straight out of a generic shoujo manga. Kishimoto well understood the people that liked it were girls that were reading shounen for the hot guys, but were imagining shoujo story-lines."

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 October 2018 - 06:57 AM.

[jak123]

 

But a storyboarding goof this bad? "We decided to make Hinata the new love interest. *16 chapter later* Naruto's father ask Sakura if she is Naruto's girlfriend, which Naruto says more or less, compares her to his wife, and then he asked her to take care of his son -which is a Japanese way of saying he approves the girl to marry his son." Really and no one catches it?

 

From what I recall from the interviews they were showing him those through out the war arc to convince him to accept Hinata as the love interest. He likely rejected them at first, but once the ending was decided he used the stuff people told him to justify the ending in the interviews.

 

Spite is likely part of it. The other part is this is how Kishimoto thought the pairing would turn out naturally.

You really need to fix that image.

 

As for SS: 

 

"You haven't read many shoujo manga have you? If this was a Shoujo manga called Sakura they would barely have to change any of the characters (other then making Sasuke actually attracted to Sakura.) Sakura is the exuberant girl with a lot of self doubt that is starting a new life, Sasuke is the sexy dark-hair mysterious rich popular introvert that only smiles at main girl, and Naruto is the blond-hair extrovert nice guy that has feelings for main girl but everyone knows he not going to get with her because the feeling between main girl and dark-hair are too strong. Read any shoujo manga and you will 3/4 times see that love triangle is this.

 

That's why Kishimoto called SS clique, because it looks like a romance ripped straight out of a generic shoujo manga. Kishimoto well understood the people that liked it were girls that were reading shounen for the hot guys, but were imagining shoujo story-lines."

 

The thing is though in shoujo (which I read a lot of) if the main guy is an kitten at the start, his journey in the story is usually about him becoming a better person because of his relationship with the main girl. There are times where that doesn't happen and the manga is usually not well liked. Example: Hot Gimmick. The main guy was so awful and disliked, the author came back and wrote an alternate ending novel years later. Frankly comparing SS to shoujo couples is an insult to shoujo couples.

[griff142]

The thing is though in shoujo (which I read a lot of) if the main guy is an kitten at the start, his journey in the story is usually about him becoming a better person because of his relationship with the main girl. There are times where that doesn't happen and the manga is usually not well liked. Example: Hot Gimmick. The main guy was so awful and disliked, the author came back and wrote an alternate ending novel years later. Frankly comparing SS to shoujo couples is an insult to shoujo couples.

Unlike most horrible guys who change overtime in shoujo, they usually have a reason and a developed properly. You can Sasuke never changed deep down because he is still a brooding punk who thinks he knows best. Even if he did change it wasn't developed because it took the last two chapters to magically make him good again

[jak123]

Unlike most horrible guys who change overtime in shoujo, they usually have a reason and a developed properly. You can Sasuke never changed deep down because he is still a brooding punk who thinks he knows best. Even if he did change it wasn't developed because it took the last two chapters to magically make him good again

The only true change I ever saw was when he was with Karin and the other members of his team, but that was thrown out the window. Sasuke could have changed even if he was a bad guy and rogue ninja in the end.