31574 replies to this topic

[Toy Ninja]

It really pisses me off that so many women actually like this and fail to see the problems with what it's implying.

 

Yeah I agree.. I don't really understand why they like it.

 

As for Misa, she's essentially the Harley Quinn of manga. Her relationship is not meant to be seen as a positive one, that was the point. 

 

Which is exactly why it’s weird that they put her on the heroines cover.  

At least Harley from the animated series was competent outside of her relationship with the joker.. also she could live as her own person at times.. misa though.. holy kitten.

[jak123]

It really pisses me off that so many women actually like this and fail to see the problems with what it's implying. I don't think Kishimoto was being MALICIOUSLY sexist (as in he literally believes women belong in the kitchen and should be subservient to men), but his approach to females was naive.

 

Then again, he did admit his wife often voices her opinions strongly, so he has to be aware of that on some level. I think he was just thinking about what he THOUGHT his audience wanted to see and put what he wanted to write on the back burner. But yeah, I think Yahigi did have a lot of input on the positive aspects of Sakura.

 

As for Misa, she's essentially the Harley Quinn of manga. Her relationship is not meant to be seen as a positive one, that was the point. 

He wasn't being sexist at all. Yeah, he wrote them terribly, but to accuse him of sexism is frankly absurd for you to jump to that conclusion because the character is a way so you think you can label it with a buzzword such as sexism. 

 

Accusing something of sexism is such a subjective viewpoint because 9 times out of 10, they weren't trying to be sexist at all and now you have just falsely labeled them as a sexist which sadly hold very large negative connotations in today's world. Yeah, just because a female character is shown in a worse light than a male character in a SHOUNEN manga doesn't mean it's sexist or the author is sexist.

Edited by jak123, 24 September 2018 - 01:36 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

When is the last time we heard of Kishimoto's sci-fi manga? How long is that going to be pushed back?

 

It was back in March  

 

so about 6 months ago. 

[jak123]

 

It was back in March  

 

so about 6 months ago. 

Watch it be some crappy oneshot that doesn't get a series.

[Toy Ninja]

He wasn't being sexist at all.

 

You keep asserting this but unless you can argue that in a cogent way then your replies really add nothing to the discussion. 

 

 

 

Yeah, he wrote them terribly, but to accuse him of sexism is frankly absurd for you to jump to that conclusion because the character is a way so you think you can label it with a buzzword such as sexism. 

 

 

 

 

If the word accurately describes the problematic way in which the character was written then it’s use is appropriate. Calling the term a “buzzword” isn’t a substantial counterpoint to its use here. It’s just dismissing the subject out of hand through appeal to ridicule.

 

Accusing something of sexism is such a subjective viewpoint because 9 times out of 10, they weren't trying to be sexist at all and now you have just falsely labeled them as a sexist which sadly hold very large negative connotations in today's world.

 

 

 

 

Where exactly did you get that “9 times out of 10” from? Or is that also a subjective viewpoint..

 

 

Yes, they are. Just because a certain character gender is treated a certain way in a story, doesn't mean it's sexist.

 

Yeah, just because a female character is shown in a worse light than a male character in a SHOUNEN manga doesn't mean it's sexist or the author is sexist.

 

 

 

I wasn’t *just* using the term for that reason. I clearly explained that in my last reply to you. The second quote is equally argumentum ad absurdum. If you can’t engage with the actual arguments presented here then your continuous objections to the use of the term carry no weight.

[KClaws_2]

He wasn't being sexist at all. Yeah, he wrote them terribly, but to accuse him of sexism is frankly absurd for you to jump to that conclusion because the character is a way so you think you can label it with a buzzword such as sexism. 

 

Accusing something of sexism is such a subjective viewpoint because 9 times out of 10, they weren't trying to be sexist at all and now you have just falsely labeled them as a sexist which sadly hold very large negative connotations in today's world. Yeah, just because a female character is shown in a worse light than a male character in a SHOUNEN manga doesn't mean it's sexist or the author is sexist.

I have a rather high standard before accusing someone of an "ism", if you will, and even then there are nuances. Like I said, I don't think Kishimoto was being INTENTIONALLY sexist. I just think he did what he thought people wanted to see as opposed to what he SHOULD have done. And when ALL the female characters are hyped up only to become useless to the main plot and housewives to characters they barely knew (except maybe Temari)...it comes off that way.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of shonen and other japanese mediums that maybe could have done a better job with their female characters. The difference between them and Naruto is that the others don't specifically hype their female characters up inconsistently, and even when they do a bad job, it's not noticeable as a consistent pattern. At worst those others come off as disappointing, but it may have been for the best; they knew they couldn't do a female character very well, so they just focused on the others.

 

Ah, and I must admit, I'm curious about Kishimoto's sci-fi manga. Not because I'm hyped, but because he announced it as soon as Naruto was finished. And we haven't SEEN jack squat. Hiro MIshama took a break, and you know what happened? Not only did he start his new manga, but he's also supervising SEVERAL Fairy Tail spin-offs. That can't possibly be easy for him when just ONE manga is practically slave labor. But whatever you think of his works, I must commend him for working so hard. 

 

I remember listening to the Mavcast, where the two speakers were NaruSaku fans (I believe they used to be members here) and they speculated over what happened. They mentioned Kishimoto put fourth several one-shots, and none of them were picked up. 

 

Going by what he admitted, with most of Naruto's story being up to his editors, it feels like many others are nervous to work with him. While editors in the manga industry can be very controlling, I think MOST want to work with a mangaka who has a good idea of where to take the story as opposed to a yes-man.

[jak123]

I have a rather high standard before accusing someone of an "ism", if you will, and even then there are nuances. Like I said, I don't think Kishimoto was being INTENTIONALLY sexist. I just think he did what he thought people wanted to see as opposed to what he SHOULD have done. And when ALL the female characters are hyped up only to become useless to the main plot and housewives to characters they barely knew (except maybe Temari)...it comes off that way.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of shonen and other japanese mediums that maybe could have done a better job with their female characters. The difference between them and Naruto is that the others don't specifically hype their female characters up inconsistently, and even when they do a bad job, it's not noticeable as a consistent pattern. At worst those others come off as disappointing, but it may have been for the best; they knew they couldn't do a female character very well, so they just focused on the others.

 

Ah, and I must admit, I'm curious about Kishimoto's sci-fi manga. Not because I'm hyped, but because he announced it as soon as Naruto was finished. And we haven't SEEN jack squat. Hiro MIshama took a break, and you know what happened? Not only did he start his new manga, but he's also supervising SEVERAL Fairy Tail spin-offs. That can't possibly be easy for him when just ONE manga is practically slave labor. But whatever you think of his works, I must commend him for working so hard. 

 

I remember listening to the Mavcast, where the two speakers were NaruSaku fans (I believe they used to be members here) and they speculated over what happened. They mentioned Kishimoto put fourth several one-shots, and none of them were picked up. 

 

Going by what he admitted, with most of Naruto's story being up to his editors, it feels like many others are nervous to work with him. While editors in the manga industry can be very controlling, I think MOST want to work with a mangaka who has a good idea of where to take the story as opposed to a yes-man.

He wasn't being sexist at all. You are still accusing him of sexism even if it wasn't "intentional". You say you have a high tolerance before using an "ism", but then you label Kishimoto with "unintentional sexism" when in in reality, he just wrote a crap story.

 

You basically want to have your cake and eat it too.

Edited by jak123, 24 September 2018 - 06:39 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Shounen jump celebrating 50 years of heroines. I wish salad wasn't there.

 

 

I'm just so Happy Ochako, Noelle and Erina are in.  To Sarada, and what a farce to put Sakura because she stopped being a heroine because ALL authorities say so and also character assassination that turned her in to a weak shallow anti-role model that NO ONE SHOULD FOLLOW. hypocrisy that I will again NEVER SHUT UP ABOUT. However I will relent that she over all isn't a bad mother, chapter 1 of the gaiden aside. I wonder Why Aoi was put in instead of Hilda lol. But other than that every lovely lady on that page DESERVES to be celebrated  

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 September 2018 - 09:23 PM.

[DrK]

He wasn't being sexist at all. You are still accusing him of sexism even if it wasn't "intentional". You say you have a high tolerance before using an "ism", but then you label Kishimoto with "unintentional sexism" when in in reality, he just wrote a crap story.

 

You basically want to have your cake and eat it too.

You realize I was the one who said that it was a sexist depiction (as in espousing that females are helpless to control their feelings as a rule or stereotype is just obviously sexist, because it is), and KClaws was more or less just agreeing with me? I don't get why you singled him out.

 

There's a big difference between saying that someone is being sexist, and that they ARE a sexist. And I don't see the great controversy in saying that someone was being sexist in one instance. It's just a word.

 

Although Kishimoto didn't write the Last, and that was sort of what my statement was based on. (well, whatever.)

[jak123]

You realize I was the one who said that it was a sexist depiction (as in espousing that females are helpless to control their feelings as a rule or stereotype is just obviously sexist, because it is), and KClaws was more or less just agreeing with me? I don't get why you singled him out.

 

There's a big difference between saying that someone is being sexist, and that they ARE a sexist. And I don't see the great controversy in saying that someone was being sexist in one instance. It's just a word.

 

Although Kishimoto didn't write the Last, and that was sort of what my statement was based on. (well, whatever.)

The problem with buzzwords like sexist and racist is that they take no real thought in use. You can broadstroke someone or a story and then it shuts down any real discussion. You claim these things are sexist, but what makes your thought process the correct answer? Just because those female characters might do that doesn't mean its sexist. Also you say "stereotype", well stereotypes exist for a reason because sometimes there might be some truth in it. Now are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, but those "stereotypes" also exist. So to accuse someone/something of sexism because it exists and because you don't like it is not a good way to have a healthy dicussion. Nothing Kishimoto wrote is intentional or unintentional sexism. He just wrote a crappy story and that's all there is to it. You also have to see that this is a shounen manga. A young male oriented demographic so if a female character doesn't get the "proper" or enough growth because of course the author is going to focus on the male characters. That doesn't make them sexist or the story sexist, it's just not the focal point.

Let me give you an example: A lot of people seem to be under the impression now a days that any female character that isn't a "strong independent woman who doesn't need a man to solve her problems" is somehow a negative depiction of a female and therefore sexist. Frankly it's good those kinds of characters with what people consider negative attributes exist because that gives a diverse cast of characters. Frankly if all female characters were "strong independent women" then that would be boring as hell.

 

Now obviously my post probably won't change your mind so let's change subjects. 

Edited by jak123, 24 September 2018 - 10:42 PM.

[totherpage95]

 

I'm just so Happy Ochako, Noelle and Erina are in.  To Sarada, and what a farce to put Sakura because she stopped being a heroine because ALL authorities say so and also character assassination that turned her in to a weak shallow anti-role model that NO ONE SHOULD FOLLOW. hypocrisy that I will again NEVER SHUT UP ABOUT. However I will relent that she over all isn't a bad mother, chapter 1 of the gaiden aside. I wonder Why Aoi was put in instead of Hilda lol. But other than that every lovely lady on that page DESERVES to be celebrated  

makes me wonder if shonen jump took the characters from the most shown girls in the manga and hinata just didn't have enough appearances

[Phantom_999]

The problem with buzzwords like sexist and racist is that they take no real thought in use. You can broadstroke someone or a story and then it shuts down any real discussion. You claim these things are sexist, but what makes your thought process the correct answer? Just because those female characters might do that doesn't mean its sexist. Also you say "stereotype", well stereotypes exist for a reason because sometimes there might be some truth in it. Now are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, but those "stereotypes" also exist. So to accuse someone/something of sexism because it exists and because you don't like it is not a good way to have a healthy dicussion. Nothing Kishimoto wrote is intentional or unintentional sexism. He just wrote a crappy story and that's all there is to it. You also have to see that this is a shounen manga. A young male oriented demographic so if a female character doesn't get the "proper" or enough growth because of course the author is going to focus on the male characters. That doesn't make them sexist or the story sexist, it's just not the focal point.

Let me give you an example: A lot of people seem to be under the impression now a days that any female character that isn't a "strong independent woman who doesn't need a man to solve her problems" is somehow a negative depiction of a female and therefore sexist. Frankly it's good those kinds of characters with what people consider negative attributes exist because that gives a diverse cast of characters. Frankly if all female characters were "strong independent women" then that would be boring as hell.

 

Now obviously my post probably won't change your mind so let's change subjects. 

 

In response to this, agreed. But however I would like to express my thoughts on this for a moment. On the subject of having a balanced variety of characters by having a female with characteristics considered anti-feminist and negative as to have a well rounded cast, that is a fine sentiment. But ultimately that is a two way street, so if that can apply to women then it should also apply to men, yet that seems to always be a problem that a man is dependent on a woman or even another man and is not "strong". What I would define as not sexist is to have equality and accept how someone is and not force them into gender stereotypes. If it is okay to have a dependent and reserved girl then they should have a boy in that type of role too to actually keep things equal and the boy shouldn't be judged for it.

 

Also, sure Shonen formula has always been like this where female characters are not prominent nor have as much impact on plot as the men, so that is whatever. But understand that even though none of that writing is intended to be sexist and the writers are not intending that either, the message portrayed is still considered harmful because again that is just stuffing males and females into gender stereotypes and expecting that of them without seeing them as individuals with their own desires. And do note that this behaviour is taught and enforced. Let me give you an example, Echiro Oda has stated regarding shipping in One Piece that if readers want to see romance then they should read Shojo manga, or how Akira Toriyama said he never made females prevalent in Dragon Ball because he did not think females can make tough choices. I am not using that to to call either of them sexist but to illustrate my point, the whole gender stereo type is taught and enforced, and to expect that of a boy or girl just because they are a boy or girl is socially and emotionally damaging. another illustration of this gender stereotype, in some cultures like in Japan, women are supposed to be nurturing and have a motherly nature to them, and can NEVER show aggression. In fact if a women assaults a man for making sexual advances on her in Japan it is the woman that is in the wrong. Do you see the problem with that? Now I am not accusing Japan of being sexist or anything but it IS a social problem that needs to be considered. Sexism, racism and every sort of discrimination out there does not need to be malicious or even intentional as you say, but again such things as "labeling", expecting then enforcing that label is boxing an individual in and not really giving them a choice if you force it on them. Again I am not saying shonen writing or shojo writing is is sexist or even wrong but the impications they bring for good or ill should definitely be considered. Just my two cents though 

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 September 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[Toy Ninja]

The problem with buzzwords like sexist and racist is that they take no real thought in use.

 

Everyone that’s used it here has explained why they used it in detail..

 

 

You can broadstroke someone or a story and then it shuts down any real discussion.

 

That can happen but here the discussion was progressing fine. When your interjecting every time everyone says something you don't like that comes across as trying to shut down discussion. Declaring over and over “he did nothing sexist” doesn’t exactly engender further discussion.

 

 

Nothing Kishimoto wrote is intentional or unintentional sexism.

 

And you know his intentions how? Not that it matters. The writers intentions are neither here nor there when it comes to whether the writing itself can be considered sexist. 

 

 

He just wrote a crappy story and that's all there is to it. You also have to see that this is a shounen manga. A young male oriented demographic so if a female character doesn't get the "proper" or enough growth because of course the author is going to focus on the male characters. That doesn't make them sexist or the story sexist, it's just not the focal point.

 

The writing is sexist in many ways in addition to that.

 

Now obviously my post probably won't change your mind so let's change subjects.

 

Not that i particularly want to.. but If we keep discussing the subject what’s wrong with that? We all already know your view. The subject doesn't need to change just because people don’t agree with you.

Edited by Toy Ninja, 25 September 2018 - 06:19 AM.

[Nate River]

When did I say Orochimaru was brought back in order to have a kid for the next generation? He was revived way before Neji died which is the closest point in time kishimoto would have accepted nH ending, and the point talks about the next generation may have started. No. What I meant was the brought him back for popularity during the war arc."Then with the new series coming out they needed a third team member." And for whatever reason they wanted Orochimaru's son to be the third member.
 
Also Kabuto can't know how to revive the hokages because if he did why didn't he revive them for his army?

Where in quote did I attribute that to you? Its my opinion, so I dont understand the needless hostility. I simply disagree about the order. Ive generally been underwhelmed by the arguments that attribute the ending switch to that late in the game. I tend to agree he changed it, but thats mostly based on 297 and the Team 8 arc...two decisions that are, needless to say, a tad odd if he always planned NH.

Nevertheless, the only thing close to concrete that exists, assuming he did change, is that it likely occurred before the Last went into product. Other than that, its speculative. Ive haven;t been all that active the last year. Maybe there are interviews that show otherwise that I havent seen.

As for Kabuto reviving the Hokages...we only know he couldnt because of what happened later. He could have easily done something else, since it wasnt impossible until the point that it was done. Even he could not....are we seriously going to go down the road that issues of internal consistency and logic would have prevented Kishimoto from going back on that or just making something else up. The series cared about this for a good chuck of its run, but not by that point.

[Toy Ninja]

Where in quote did I attribute that to you? Its my opinion, so I dont understand the needless hostility. I simply disagree about the order. Ive generally been underwhelmed by the arguments that attribute the ending switch to that late in the game. I tend to agree he changed it, but thats mostly based on 297 and the Team 8 arc...two decisions that are, needless to say, a tad odd if he always planned NH.

Nevertheless, the only thing close to concrete that exists, assuming he did change, is that it likely occurred before the Last went into product. Other than that, its speculative. Ive haven;t been all that active the last year. Maybe there are interviews that show otherwise that I havent seen.

As for Kabuto reviving the Hokages...we only know he couldnt because of what happened later. He could have easily done something else, since it wasnt impossible until the point that it was done. Even he could not....are we seriously going to go down the road that issues of internal consistency and logic would have prevented Kishimoto from going back on that or just making something else up. The series cared about this for a good chuck of its run, but not by that point.

 

Discussing the internal logic of this series is enough to make even the most reasonable person angry.

 

I never liked kabuto becoming a big player in the war arc. It would have made more sense if he just devolved into a mindless snake monster. Also, because of the way the story is contrived, kabuto comes across as one of the biggest idiots in the manga. Why get involved in the war at all if you are in his position? You could just get the kages you did resurrect to give up all the most damaging secrets, and important info, in their villages histories.. and use that info to blackmail the villages into doing whatever you want. (including breaking up the alliance, having them capture sasuke for you, and get rid of tobi for you). If kabuto had just kept himself hidden and used proxies to contact each of the villages in secret, while never letting anyone know he was resurrecting people, then he would have been unstoppable.. Basically that whole part of the story seems like an excuse for action scenes.

[DrK]

Where in quote did I attribute that to you? Its my opinion, so I dont understand the needless hostility. I simply disagree about the order. Ive generally been underwhelmed by the arguments that attribute the ending switch to that late in the game. I tend to agree he changed it, but thats mostly based on 297 and the Team 8 arc...two decisions that are, needless to say, a tad odd if he always planned NH.

Thinking about it now, I think it is pretty much impossible to pin down. You can't say that the ending had to be changed after x event, like for instance the Pain arc, for the reason that there would be no way he would have written X scene with NH in mind, because there are baffling scenes like the one with Minato even well into the war arc.

 

One can assume the war arc because of how badly Sakura was utilized, and even drawn, but even then that could be Kishi's lack of enthusiasm with Sakura in general by that point. It's hard to say how much that had to do with the decision he ultimately made.

Edited by DrK, 27 September 2018 - 06:52 AM.

[Moon_Girl]

If I remember right, there was something that said 'The Last' was written or put into development three years before the ending of the manga. I don't know how true that is.

As a girl, in terms of the 'sexism' argument...Hinata as a character, I wouldn't call sexist, but at the same time, she's an insult to girls. Her literal purpose in life was to get Naruto's D and honestly, that is pretty sexist in it's own way. One could argue that "Just because she loves a guy doesn't mean it's sexist". But...that's literally all there is to her. She has shown zero ambition in anything that doesn't concern Naruto. She doesn't show any real care for her teammates, her clan, her family, anything. 
That's why, even though I hate her guts, the best path for her would have been to move on from Naruto and become a proper heir to her clan. Anyone who says otherwise really doesn't care about Hinata and all they care about is their self inserting or ship.

Sakura...well...the only sexist thing Kishimoto did to her was the whole "She would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke". That was straight up sexist. There is zero denying that SasuSaku is abusive, mild or not. And it goes both ways. Kishimoto revealed that Sakura followed him around and kept pushing her feelings onto him until he gave up. The Sakura novel backs this up with a passage that says something among the lines of "No matter how many times I'm rejected, I'll keep pushing my feelings!" Not the exact words, but still the same weight. It turned Sakura into a horrible person and in a way, turned Sasuke into a victim. He basically had to say 'fine' in order to make her leave him alone. Apparently it worked. After he knocked her up and she spawned Salad, she stayed in the village while he was free to roam outside without Sakura nagging him. No wonder he never came back to the village. It sounds like they're both at fault and the problems go both ways. Man, SasuSaku really is a huge train wreak.

 

Apparently in the burrito anime, all the females from the rookie 12 are still active shinobi, except Hinata. She straight up got what she wanted, didn't have to try and impress Naruto anymore and gave up on being a Ninja to be a housewife instead. And we all saw how well that went. To the point Sakura had to save her sorry hide again, Ino had to protect her, ect. Useless as always.
That 'Hyuuga Princess' thing died off super fast. Just had to make her super powerful for her fairytale movie and then it's brushed off. 

Both pairings are huge train wreaks, the whole ending is a giant nuke explosion and I really just can't comprehend how anyone could even be remotely okay with it.

[jak123]

Sakura...well...the only sexist thing Kishimoto did to her was the whole "She would be a terrible woman if she moved on from Sasuke". That was straight up sexist. There is zero denying that 

 

No. It was just terrible writing. Kishimoto in that statement was the equivalent of a SS shipper and nothing more.

[DrK]

 

No. It was just terrible writing. Kishimoto in that statement was the equivalent of a SS shipper and nothing more.

It was a terribly written interview answer? He probably just said it.

 

It presents a double standard, because there are other characters that move on from their feelings. It is entirely reasonable to consider holding one gender to a completely different standard as being sexist.

 

But he doesn't really believe that. What it really was was a kitten answer to try to justify why he sank his story. Because to come off as sexist is better than coming off like you don't give a kitten about the story you wrote for 15 years.

[Bail o' Lies]

It was a terribly written interview answer? He probably just said it.

 

It presents a double standard, because there are other characters that move on from their feelings. It is entirely reasonable to consider holding one gender to a completely different standard as being sexist.

 

But he doesn't really believe that. What it really was was a kitten answer to try to justify why he sank his story. Because to come off as sexist is better than coming off like you don't give a kitten about the story you wrote for 15 years.

The "terrible woman" thing comes off as someone constantly used that justification as to why she can't give up on Sasuke to him. When he needed to justify why he went with it. He used that since he figured that what the fans must think since someone was telling him that. We see a similar line of thought in Sakura's speech in the last where she says it impossible for a girl to move on from their first crush.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 29 September 2018 - 12:21 AM.