132 replies to this topic

[Catra]

"you're just mad you didn't get overpowered Luke from eu"

 

no I'm mad they flushed a whole trilogy of character development down the pooper. I wasn't expecting him to tear down star destroyers from the sky or take out the at-at's on not-hoth and i expected him to not chuck away the weapon of his fathers who he loved so much he saved him when no one else would. i sure as hell wasn't expecting him to be bested by Rey in a stick fight and Im surprised he gave a nano second of a thought in killing his nephew by igniting his lightsaber. and now Mark is now conveniently back pedaling because the mouse most likely got to him. Mark doesn't have to apologize for anything and i wont accept it either. its HIS character. he helped make him. he has every right to disagree with Rian/Kennedy/Disney despite being under contract.

 

AND HEY if you liked the direction, thats fine by me. really it takes a lot of guts for one to be so passionate about something and yet not mind other peoples opinions but really at the end of the day its just a movie and there's no point and actually ruining friendships over it.

[Bail o' Lies]

This movie has huge negative effect on the franchise. More then some realize.

 

Because J.J. Abrams made episode 7 a soft reboot/remake of a New Hope with a lot of mysteries that promised answers in the later movies. He placed the true burden of selling the new Star Wars to the public onto the next movie. Rouge one was just to prove that they could make Star Wars spin off movies. So in order for Star Wars to become another franchise that rolls out yearly movies for Disney. They needed The Last Jedi to stick the landing and answer the questions JJ left in the audiences' minds after the Force Awakens. Instead they got a Two and a half hour movie that was one half filled with utter nihilism, the other some idiotic plot filled with more political moral posturing then actual sense, and overall a movie the spent more time focused on subverting expectations & trying to come off as intellectual then actually be an enjoyable film.

 

So because of this movie Disney's Star Wars' ability to sell may have been irreparably damage. 

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 January 2018 - 03:41 PM.

[Nate River]

This movie has huge negative effect on the franchise. More then some realize.

 

Because J.J. Abrams made episode 7 a soft reboot/remake of a New Hope with a lot of mysteries that promised answers in the later movies. He placed the true burden of selling the new Star Wars to the public onto the next movie. Rouge one was just to prove that they could make Star Wars spin off movies. So in order for Star Wars to become another franchise that rolls out yearly movies for Disney. They needed The Last Jedi to stick the landing and answer the questions JJ left in the audiences' minds after the Force Awakens. Instead they got a Two and a half hour movie that was one half filled with utter nihilism, the other some idiotic plot filled with more political moral posturing then actual sense, and overall a movie the spent more time focused on subverting expectations & trying to come off as intellectual then actually be an enjoyable film.

 

So because of this movie Disney's Star Wars' ability to sell may have been irreparably damage. 

 

I actually think their biggest long term risk is burnout and the struggle to remove itself from the rebel/empire conflict that defined the first trilogy. If they can't move the story beyond this general conflict they are going to runout of stories to tell.

 

I still think they the are in the stage where the movie could have been 10% starship/light sabre fights and 90% Luke fighting old man diarrhea on the john and done okay because it star wars and much of the icons/nostaglia are still attached to it. They are eventually going to run out of this

 

Moral Political Posturing...I assume you mean Rose. It exists in a couple of other forms, but I would have been fine with that had it stayed sort of in the background (of which there is quite a bit of this). When it started coming out of character's mouths...then it started to annoy me. I strongly suspect this is why the critic reception v. viewer reception gap is so large. The last time I saw a gap this large was Ghostbusters and for the same reason. I don't think its as bad as some fans say, but 93% positive....nope. The plot struggles to withstand close scrutiny and gaps start to appear with any serious prodding. 

 

I can understand why long standing fans of the series would have felt crapped on, but I think it was a decent movie that mostly suffered from inconsistent execution. Because they make such unexpected turns (some of which I really liked)  more world-building and character-building was needed. They are now outside the relm of where things can be assumed to be simply the way they are. It's against a backdrop of establish and told events, which means when things start shifting from those prior events and their expect consequences, care must be taken to explain why. This movie (and the TFA for that matters) needed that more than anything. 

[Bail o' Lies]

There is always going to be burnout with these Franchise if they make movies year after year none stop. The problem isn't it burning people out at the moment it selling people the Franchise Disney's Star Wars to being with.

 

Disney at the moment off the top of my head has five franchises that have yearly movies right now: Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar, Disney Princess, & Live Adaptations of Classic Disney. Each one of them have a proof of concept that show how successful the franchise is and how they come make Disney money. Marvel/Iron man, Pixar is Pixar, The latest Disney Princess are either The princess & the Frog or Tangled, and the Live Adaptations have Maleficent. Star wars has Star Wars 7 for the main series, and Rouge One for side stories. The problem is like I said earlier 7 gave a lot of mysteries and questions to the audience. So it was up to 8 to finishes selling the franchise because JJ passed the buck to it. And it has shat the bed. So now it has to deal with people from disinterest, disappointed, to enraged at the franchise now. Also all they are doing is try to suppress the negative opinions instead of listen to them, which is only going to sour those people even more.

 

Rose was the biggest offender but the entire plot was covered in Johnson (& from what I've heard Kennedy) shoving his political views in the audiences' face in the most blatant way possible. It one, dates the movie removing the timeless effect other star wars media normally has. Two, people don't go to a Star Wars movie to be lectured about the director's political beliefs for 2 1/2 hours. Three, they weren't even subtle about it.

 

To be honest I saw where this series was heading during the Force Awakens, and lower my expectations accordingly. Which is why I genuinely enjoyed Rouge one, and was able to enjoy the Last Jedi. But Last Jedi story is awful by any standards, beyond mindless popcorn film you watch once, then never think about again, and is only held up by the ability of the actors.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 January 2018 - 07:36 PM.

[Catra]

and now disney owns fox. other companies are going to have to team up otherwise they'll probably just give up because they wont be able to compete with disney.

[rocci]

In the end of the day, it sell.

I don't think the producer give a damn about what the other think.

[Nostradamus]

In the end of the day, it sell.

I don't think the producer give a damn about what the other think.

Actually it bombed hard. Really hard.

And he does care since before the movie was released he already got a new trilogy on his hands which by the looks of it, there's a good chance Disney won't give it to him anymore. They'll just find someone else to do it.

[Bail o' Lies]

The problem isn't if The Last Jedi made its money or not. It is the question of, will other Star Wars films make their money? That's what Disney is concerned about.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 January 2018 - 11:09 PM.

[rocci]

The problem isn't if The Last Jedi made its money or not. It is the question of, will other Star Wars films make their money? That's what Disney is concerned about.

It will make money that for sure.

@nostradamus
What do you mean by bomb?
Is that mean financially failure or critic hate or fan hate?

[Nostradamus]

It will make money that for sure.

@nostradamus
What do you mean by bomb?
Is that mean financially failure or critic hate or fan hate?

Financially speaking it actually bombed. For the first three days it was close to The Force Awakens, but after the third day it dropped hard, after the first week it dropped 69%, that it insane. All movies drop in time, that is perfectly normal for all. But TLJ fell way too much, it fell even harder than Batman V Superman and that's DC and everyone hates DC, rightfully so.

Last numbers that I checked showed in the US about 400 million for TLJ, while TFA back when it was launched did over 900 million. And outside TLJ (The Last Jedi) did about the same 400 million, while TFA (The Force Awakens) broke 1 billion.

Update. TLJ hit the 1 billion mark combined. So by looking at this from episode to episode, there's about a 50% drop in total. That is really really bad.

 

 

The problem isn't if The Last Jedi made its money or not. It is the question of, will other Star Wars films make their money? That's what Disney is concerned about.

Precisely. Thing is Disney can look at this and ignore it, it's a failure, but who cares if the next movies are going to make up for the lost. However the next movie is the Han Solo which will go up against Deadpool 2, and even though Han Solo is attached to the Star Wars name, and that name hold a lot of power. It's not going to go well for SW when it's up against Deadpool.

Edited by Nostradamus, 03 January 2018 - 12:36 AM.

[rocci]

I don't think it make the movie a bomb. this is a financial succes. If this movie is critical financial failure, what would it make the other movie?

[Bail o' Lies]

Financially speaking it actually bombed. For the first three days it was close to The Force Awakens, but after the third day it dropped hard, after the first week it dropped 69%, that it insane. All movies drop in time, that is perfectly normal for all. But TLJ fell way too much, it fell even harder than Batman V Superman and that's DC and everyone hates DC, rightfully so.

Last numbers that I checked showed in the US about 400 million for TLJ, while TFA back when it was launched did over 900 million. And outside TLJ (The Last Jedi) did about the same 400 million, while TFA (The Force Awakens) broke 1 billion.

Update. TLJ hit the 1 billion mark combined. So by looking at this from episode to episode, there's about a 50% drop in total. That is really really bad.

 

 

Precisely. Thing is Disney can look at this and ignore it, it's a failure, but who cares if the next movies are going to make up for the lost. However the next movie is the Han Solo which will go up against Deadpool 2, and even though Han Solo is attached to the Star Wars name, and that name hold a lot of power. It's not going to go well for SW when it's up against Deadpool.

The word of the day is "diminishing returns" is what Disney is fearing. Star Wars already got a bad rep for Battle Front 2 which they were able to blame on EA, but the negative reaction of Last Jedi is not helping. Star Wars has been able to print money no problem for the past 30 years, even counting the prequels. After three movies under Disney it suddenly is hitting a snag. Disney wants 30 years of printing money, not a one billion dollar movie then shelve the franchise. 

 

Also The Han Solo movie from what I'm hearing is probably going to bomb.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 03 January 2018 - 05:26 AM.

[Catra]

DC is rightfully hated? if anything, Warner bros deserves to be hated for messing with Zack and the other directors. the guy tried to show his vision and they tried to destroy it once with bvs. We were lucky enough to have a directors cut of that which is the definitive version. and then they cut justice league up and gave it to another director who had a different vision hence the term "Frankenstein" movie. the awesome no mans land scene from Wonder woman? yeah WB wanted that out. The flash has gone through 2 directors already both walked out on "creative differences". Ben Affleck has went from directing, starring and writing in the new batman and look where that is now. execs suck.
 

 

ON TOPIC

 

star wars the last jedi rightfully bombed because

 

1. it clearly has a gender political agenda to smother your face in which we star wars fans don't come to see and we NEVER had a problem with female or POC leads. hell this is a world where ALIENS exist and as the argument goes, once aliens are on the table the whole human race is one race. no blacks, whites, purples, greens, etc. all humanoid race.

 

2. too much mcu style humor that just ruins the tone. enough said.

 

3. character assassination. i won't forgive them for what they did to luke and honestly im glad Harrison ford jumped ship early so him and his character wouldn't have to face such embarrassment. and now that they saved the princess leia character they're in a very VERY big pickle. it would be unethical to have cgi leia like in rogue one since Carrie Fisher is dead and if they do a time skip it wouldn't feel right. they had the chance to have Leia die in space but they blew it.

 

the Han solo movie WILL bomb mark my words because everyone agree's its a story that doesn't NEED to be told.

[Bail o' Lies]

DC is more popular then Marvel right now among comic book fans for not being run by idiots for the past few years. As well as having some of the most recognizable heroes in their roster. Its Warner Brothers that are to eager to copy Disney(, but making everything grim looking) before they actually establish the story-line that are the problem.

 

1. Politics date the movie, and annoy people that want to watch a movie not have political sermon shoved in their face.

 

2. Other then Mark Hamill's humor which was aided by his acting ability. Every other joke is modern humor which is funny watching it once, but dates the movie and makes repeated views a drag.

 

3. Honestly looking at the story they gave Leia. After Carrie died they really should have just kill her off in the beginning. Some people would complain about it sure but it not like they were doing anything with the character anyway.

 

The Han Solo movie production has been awful to the point even though I don't pay any attention to stuff like that, I've been hearing it. Apparently the people that play Han and Lando can't act playing characters that rely on their actors' natural charisma. What is the story of Han Solo are they going to be focus on and will it even be a part of his past people would want to know about?

[Catra]

also did anyone stay during the after credits? i know they gave "in loving memory of carrie fisher" but i don't think there was anything for kenny baker or Erik Bauersfeld (voice of admiral ackbar)

[Catra]

 

"I like how you don´t even address the fact that Luke tried to bring Darth Vader to the light side when asserting that he´s a gray Jedi, implying he was always hopeless towards the dark side like he was in TLJ, when he demonstrably wasn´t. Furthermore, yeah, it kinda did ruin Star Wars, by ruining the stakes completely. It canonized the idea that Rey, and anyone else, can become a force master because the force needs balancing, with zero training or effort. Not a single thing that happens anymore is relevant, since there´s a guarantee that balance will be achieved no matter what, and that anyone and anything can become all-powerful whenever the writers write a villain the heroes can´t defeat, or an obstacle they can´t overcome. There is no more mysticism to the force, we know exactly how it works, and sophistry won´t make that fact go away. You either train in it to use it, or just become a god with it because it said so. That´s it."

Edited by Catra, 04 January 2018 - 11:27 AM.

[RulesofNature]

So, I've been drinking.

 

I think one of the things that really turned me against this film is a pretty complex issue. It seemed like the first two acts were meant to deconstruct the typical Star Wars movie, taking some cues from the old EU and the like. This is the stuff people tend to rave about when saying how smart this film is, and I do agree that doing something like this can pave the way to all sorts of new, ambitious Star Wars media. Like, the idea of the Force balancing itself isn't bad since the Sith used this with their rule of two (which pretty much went they had higher quality users since fewer people were tapping into the dark side whereas the Jedi had huge numbers. Though really Rey needed more training to be believable) or how the original trilogy ended up being a romanticized view of the Jedi and the old Republic. It would have been a really good set up if Rey had found dark side texts in the pit, with her balancing both aspects of the Force within herself rather than just light conquers darkness.

 

Hell, Bob Ross himself understood the need for both light and dark.

 

The final act though felt like it was a hasty attempt to reconstruct the typical Star Wars movie. Luke is once again the hero, the Resistance are the undoubted good guys, Rey will become a Jedi and defeat the dark side, yadda yadda yadda. I really feel that this should have been the subject of the third film in this trilogy. It really reminds me of how people say the original concepts for Rogue One scared Disney, so corporate stepped in to make it more marketable to the general public. It just feels really sloppily done, too rushed and it undermines the rest of the film.

 

Also, I have to say this. They reset the story in order to give the final victory to the new cast. Everything Han, Luke and Leia went through in the original trilogy was for nothing. All of their victories were reset. It's kinda like when you lend a copy of a game to your friend and he saves over your own clear file. It's kinda sickening to be honest that they couldn't move the story forward, showing a changed landscape following RotJ, and now the new cast (who have got the resistance killed in this movie or have been a Mary Sue) are the ones who are being built up to take the final credit for the win. That these new characters can't create their own victories, it's just Disney overriding the victories of cultural icons for their marketable new cast.

 

As stupid as the petitions to remove this movie from canon are, I'm done viewing it as canon myself. As far as I'm concerned, the sequel trilogy is like one of those Post-RotJ EU stories in it's own canon.

[Catra]

Disney: We’re gonna scrap the old Star Wars Expanded Universe because it has become a convoluted, inconsistent, plot hole filled mess

 

Also Disney: kittens up the continuity of TLJ which is full of plot holes and inconsistencies from TFA, new EU books inconsistent with the movies, all done within 2 ½ years

[My Living Curse]

So I'm kinda late to this, but I wanted to write up my own feelings on this film. I saw this with a large group of people in December and we shared similar sentiments after we left the theatre.

 

I was never a big Star Wars fan, but I digged The Force Awakens, it was definitely a step up from the prequel trilogy, while still holding true to a lot of elements from the original trilogy.

So given that, I was pretty excited to see The Last Jedi, and I had very high hopes for it. I always want to give my honest opinion on anything.

 

So. How can I say this in a nice way? It was just...disappointingly *cough* bad.

 

It didn't feel like a 2017 movie, it felt like it belonged with the prequel movies. Most of the animals they showcased gave me phantom menace vibes and they looked outdated. Yoda looked like a puppet and unnatural, considering the CGI tech they have nowadays (Hell even animals in Avatar 2009 looked 100x better).

 

Pros/Cons:

-That part where Leia seemingly dies to the explosion felt perfectly done and was very emotional, until she wakes up in space (frozen and should be dead in a vacuum devoid of oxygen), flips over and starts flying through the debris to the shuttle. Also it might be "fatigue" but I'm tired of huge, fortress-like ships/death stars being taken out by some tiny ships b/c plot reasons.

 

-That Casino world also felt like it was straight out of the prequels. A lot of unnecessary and cringy extras. I also didn't understand the importance that Rose had to play in this movie, and they dragged Finn with her. A lot of this felt like a politically correct film to be honest.

 

-I expected more from Snoke and back in TFA he felt like a threatening force with a lot of potential behind his motives. In TLA they made him kinda goofy looking and he just goes out like nothing, not at all memorable.

 

-And that dialogue between Kylo and Rey felt super cringe at times. Especially about the "no shirt".

 

TLDR: A lot of the movie felt cringy, the story was kinda clunky/weak at points and while sitting in the theatre a lot of people were whispering/snickering. Now on a bright note there were parts I enjoyed. Luke was played amazingly and everyone of his scenes was great, and I loved when he trained Rey. The fight scene in the throne room was also amazingly done. But other than that, the movie was also throwing all these clumsy, cutesy creatures in my face in an attempt to market toys (understandable but, gee, a little overboard) and a lot of this most likely has to do with Disney owning practically all franchises now.

 

That said this one left a bad taste for a lot of us. The Empire Strikes Back still remains the best out of all films. I thought they would take tips from it when making this film like TFA was "copy" of a New Hope. Guess I was WAY wrong though.    

Edited by My Living Curse, 08 January 2018 - 04:54 AM.

[Catra]

rewatchinig Luke vs Ren on youtube and i DID feel something, i mean its more than i can say for than anakin and obi wan vs count dooku. after all It's said a lightsaber duel (or a fight in general) is just a tool for a deeper psychological conflict between two characters. Its only a shame it didn't last long. both their interactions and the fight itself. i mean it was built up to be an epic one but it just ends up being a short vader vs ben kenobi 2.0.