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#21 Nate River

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:28 PM

I never saw it as connected to Obito's dream, to be honest. I've said this several times on this forum, I view Kakashi accepting the position as the culmination of his life story and journey. If Naruto's journey was a journey to acknowledgement, then Kakashi's journey is an inversion. A journey of self-acknowledgement.
 
Kakashi's whole life was what you could call a lifetime of self-denial. Kakashi had already gained the knowledge, skill, respect and acknowledgement needed to become Hokage. Yet, he kept denying all of those things because of what he perceives himself to be as. By the time he faced Obito, he was able to become his own man and slowly accept that he was above what he previously thought himself as. When Obito gave up the position to him, I felt that it was less about Obito asking him to fulfill his hopes and dreams and more about him telling Kakashi to accept the fact that he is worth more than he thinks he is.


For me, Kakashi didn't care at all about holding the position until Obito pushed him there. It'll always tie back to Obito for me because of that. I think you make a good point. Charlie Brown once said: "everything I touch gets ruined."

I think Obito's handling was so bad and indefensible that I feel like he ruins everything he touches.

#22 Phantom_999

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:34 PM

UCHIHA FAVORTISM AT IT'S FINEST!!!!!!!! :zaru:


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#23 Saku-chan

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:40 PM

I think a big part of why Obito's redemption was unsatisfying is due to the weight of his bad deeds. Yes he was manipulated by Madara, but he still made the decision to take everything so far after seeing Kakashi kill Rin. Have some faith in your teammate will you? One of the themes of Naruto was redemption, but by the end of this series, it felt like Naruto's Talk no jutsu was working just to satisfy the intended theme instead of standing on it's own allowing us to see a theme... if that made sense. It's like Kishi was hamfisting characters into doing what he wanted just to make Naruto look like an inspirational MC instead of things happening organically. And this sucks because I could see that he actually was inspirational before the famous or infamous Talk no Jutsu with Pein.
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#24 rocci

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 02:52 AM

Kakashi become important role in war arc because of obito.
Have tobi reveal not to be obito, kishi will relegate kakashi on sakura level.
Remember the skipping of kakashi rampage.

Kakashi become sixth hokage because of obito. I mean what the urgency for tsunade to resign if turn out she still alive and well ten year into the future?
If not to make naruto the seven hokage by foreshadowing it through obito last wish.

@codusn
Kakashi already get asspull power, albeit temporally.
It only show how weak kakashi power. He need to rely on obito OP jutsu.
And what kind of asspull hagoromo will give to him?
Mokuton maybe, but it will useless if he doesn't has big chakra level.

#25 Codus N

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 04:04 AM

For me, Kakashi didn't care at all about holding the position until Obito pushed him there. It'll always tie back to Obito for me because of that. I think you make a good point. Charlie Brown once said: "everything I touch gets ruined."I think Obito's handling was so bad and indefensible that I feel like he ruins everything he touches.


Is this meant to be sarcastic? Because I'm not quite sure with what you're getting at with my opinion.

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#26 MangaReader

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 04:59 AM

I'll be fair though, I kinda wished Hagoromo gave him an asspull power-up at the end before he disappeared. With his reasoning along the lines of him needing a power befitting a Kage, since Hagoromo seems to know that he decided to become Hokage.

 

Hagoromo: "Consider this a congratulatory gift from me."

 

Considering all things, I feel Kakashi deserved an asspull power-up more than anybody else in the manga.

His asspull came in the form a of temporary gift from the ashes of Obito...


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#27 Codus N

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:32 AM

That's why I wanted an asspull power-up that's permanent, and from Hagoromo himself this time.

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#28 Nami

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:54 AM

Honestly people, instead of complaining about all the things Kishi did wrong, why not point out the things he did right? That would be a much much shorter discussion. Come to think of it, is there anything that did make sense in the last chapter?



#29 rocci

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:14 AM

Honestly people, instead of complaining about all the things Kishi did wrong, why not point out the things he did right? That would be a much much shorter discussion. Come to think of it, is there anything that did make sense in the last chapter?

You need to lower your iq if you want to enjoy part 2.

#30 Torxe

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 10:39 AM

Most of the other characters were either lazy/fat or demotivated only Lee was in character


In support of the Sakura we once knew:

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#31 Nar123

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 11:46 AM

Honestly people, instead of complaining about all the things Kishi did wrong, why not point out the things he did right? That would be a much much shorter discussion. Come to think of it, is there anything that did make sense in the last chapter?

Things he did right - part 1 / early part 2 till Pain arc, NS bond (even if he was misleading) was great, the jiraiya fight (one of the best moments of the manga for me)


Most of the other characters were either lazy/fat or demotivated only Lee was in character



Another one of Kishimoto's mistakes, characters that were fan favorites like Lee and Neji were pushed aside.
Lee didnt had any big fight in shippuden

Edited by Nar123, 09 December 2014 - 11:48 AM.

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#32 Nate River

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:37 PM

Is this meant to be sarcastic? Because I'm not quite sure with what you're getting at with my opinion.

No.

 

Poorly constructed paragraph which combines two different trains of thought.

 

That line about your opinion should not be where it is. I really meant you make a good point, I just feel Obito's portrayal ruin's everything  it's near.

 

 

Honestly people, instead of complaining about all the things Kishi did wrong, why not point out the things he did right? That would be a much much shorter discussion. Come to think of it, is there anything that did make sense in the last chapter?

 

 

I could do that. but I'd have to find them first.

 

 

Not having much luck with that.



#33 Codus N

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:38 PM

Ok that's cool.

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#34 Jenskott

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 03:24 PM

 

 

Honestly people, instead of complaining about all the things Kishi did wrong, why not point out the things he did right?

 

It is a tad hard to me point out the things that he did right if he destroyed them for the end of the manga, was actively working to destroy them for a long time or they were "accidents" that he never planned to do or follow through with.

 

One example: when I started to read Naruto, the world seemed something living, new and thrilling. However it gradually became duller, worn and innecessarily convoluted. In excrement chapter 700 it had already become boring and mundane. No ninjas, no mysterious woodlands full with dangers and adventure, Konohagakure looks like New York and the endearing, funny kid characters are embittered adults.


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#35 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 04:00 PM

Things he did right - part 1 / early part 2 till Pain arc, NS bond (even if he was misleading) was great, the jiraiya fight (one of the best moments of the manga for me)




Another one of Kishimoto's mistakes, characters that were fan favorites like Lee and Neji were pushed aside.
Lee didnt had any big fight in shippuden

 

Yeah I really don't get why he focused on Gai. Lee would've been a much better character to use in his role.


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#36 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 06:07 PM

I could do that. but I'd have to find them first.

 

Not having much luck with that.

 

Nope, not much on my end for what was done right in 700 either.



#37 tricksie

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:08 PM

@fanwoman, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

• For ShikaTema, yup, glad they were together, but I too was disappointed not to see her using her skills as a shinobi. There seems to be an unsettling undercurrent in the manga that the women's goals are fulfilled in their domestic life, not in reaching the zenith of what they've trained so hard for. Temari, Sakura, Karin, Tenten, even Hinata - these were girls who were trained fighters and killers. They weren't taking home-ec class all their childhood. So their epilogue images should correspond with the bulk of their development. 

 

• As for the Konoha as a modern city...whaaatttt??? Since when? It's ridiculous, no matter how you slice it. There is no justification except that they wanted to set Bolt in a modern world and move away from the shinobi mythology. (This was is can be continued by other, less imaginative creators than Kishi, who seemed to genuinely enjoy coming up with techniques and drawing elaborate explanations.)

 

• Sai/Ino...there is no upside here, for either of them. The relationship makes Ino look shallow and hung up on the past with her Sasuke-lookalike. And Sai, with his confusion of inner beauty vs. outer beauty, his happy ending should have come in the form of someone who transcends those qualifiers somehow. Sai is an artist after all. He sees things with a different eye. It makes no sense whatsoever for Sai to fall for the beauty queen of the series.

 

• Hinata is a mystery. There is no given no inkling of her life, her purpose, her anything, except what we can glean from the picture: She is a dutiful mother and daughter. 

 

• Kiba - Hmmm.... While I like that he is still brash and a loud mouth, he is still a little to young to be adopting Jiraiya's wandering-eye sort of ways. It's a bit of a let down because, though he may have been the least popular with fans of the rookies, Kiba was always the closest in personality to Naruto. That's why they never got on. So for Kiba to be a washed up, slacker shinobi, it reflects a little bit on Naruto as well. Couldn't he have just as easily wound up like this? Couldn't he have been the going-nowhere Jiraiya character? (Especially if SS happened and Hinata wasn't forced on him Then it truly would be the repeat of Jiraiya/Tsunade dynamic.) Anyway, yes, I agree, Kiba deserved better. There is nothing in his development that would point to this being the resolution of all his work.

 

• In that same frame of thought, there is nothing in the resolution that explains how Naruto has become mature enough to handle the Kage position, and especially how he has become wise enough to oversee or encourage the massive growth explosion of Konoha. Just as OOC as it is for Kiba to wind up as a slacker wastrel, how is it that Naruto became a typical overworked Kage like those that came before him? Didn't Naruto's development point to him doing things differently? On his own terms and with his own panache? Why did he end up a shackled-to-his-job boss, drinking and dining al desko, who's apparently abandoning his family time? Tackling the realities of life do not have to come at the cost of your goals, your dreams and apparently your soul. But the happy Naruto that swore to be a the Hokage, even if he was still a genin, has long since been forgotten. And there is no explanation as to how or why.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but one of the things I was most looking forward to at the end of the manga (outside of the NS) was seeing Naruto's rise to the Hokage seat and how he was going to shake things up. I was looking forward to seeing him ruffle feathers and watch the old ways bend to him, instead of him trying to fit into a society that didn't accept him for most of his life. Outside of the bait-and-switch of the romance, I think the depriving readers of the seeing Naruto fulfill his dreams as Hokage, even if it was just a single chapter, is the biggest disappointment in the manga. I would have rather seen that than dashing through the images of the rookies in 700. 

 

• Kakashi as Kage doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I expected it. However, that is because I would assume Naruto would rather not be Hokage yet, thinking it too stifling to a young man who likes to be really active and involved. Kakashi as Kage gives Naruto a chance to matrue and be mentored into the position. It also give him someone to fall back on in case things go wrong, as Kakashi's quite a bit younger than Tsunade. Yet none of this scenario is even hinted at in the manga. As Nate said, instead of Karachi stepping up to help his student make the transition, it is implied that Kakashi is doing it in Obito's stead. And I hate that as readers we're forced to accept Obito's redemption over and over again, when he is the biggest, most horrendous villain of the series. He directly caused the deaths of so many people, in such horrible ways and for such personal reasons, that he puts Kaguya, the puppet-villain, to shame. 

 

• And for Sakura...it's the ultimate injustice. She got demoted, plain and simple, through no fault of her own. She lost her development, which is never explained, and she is awarded to someone who hates her, and the one who loves her broke his own ninja way to be with another. There are no words that could ever make what happened to her fair.



#38 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:34 PM

@fanwoman, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

• For ShikaTema, yup, glad they were together, but I too was disappointed not to see her using her skills as a shinobi. There seems to be an unsettling undercurrent in the manga that the women's goals are fulfilled in their domestic life, not in reaching the zenith of what they've trained so hard for. Temari, Sakura, Karin, Tenten, even Hinata - these were girls who were trained fighters and killers. They weren't taking home-ec class all their childhood. So their epilogue images should correspond with the bulk of their development. 

 

• As for the Konoha as a modern city...whaaatttt??? Since when? It's ridiculous, no matter how you slice it. There is no justification except that they wanted to set Bolt in a modern world and move away from the shinobi mythology. (This was is can be continued by other, less imaginative creators than Kishi, who seemed to genuinely enjoy coming up with techniques and drawing elaborate explanations.)

 

• Sai/Ino...there is no upside here, for either of them. The relationship makes Ino look shallow and hung up on the past with her Sasuke-lookalike. And Sai, with his confusion of inner beauty vs. outer beauty, his happy ending should have come in the form of someone who transcends those qualifiers somehow. Sai is an artist after all. He sees things with a different eye. It makes no sense whatsoever for Sai to fall for the beauty queen of the series.

 

• Hinata is a mystery. There is no given no inkling of her life, her purpose, her anything, except what we can glean from the picture: She is a dutiful mother and daughter. 

 

• Kiba - Hmmm.... While I like that he is still brash and a loud mouth, he is still a little to young to be adopting Jiraiya's wandering-eye sort of ways. It's a bit of a let down because, though he may have been the least popular with fans of the rookies, Kiba was always the closest in personality to Naruto. That's why they never got on. So for Kiba to be a washed up, slacker shinobi, it reflects a little bit on Naruto as well. Couldn't he have just as easily wound up like this? Couldn't he have been the going-nowhere Jiraiya character? (Especially if SS happened and Hinata wasn't forced on him Then it truly would be the repeat of Jiraiya/Tsunade dynamic.) Anyway, yes, I agree, Kiba deserved better. There is nothing in his development that would point to this being the resolution of all his work.

 

• In that same frame of thought, there is nothing in the resolution that explains how Naruto has become mature enough to handle the Kage position, and especially how he has become wise enough to oversee or encourage the massive growth explosion of Konoha. Just as OOC as it is for Kiba to wind up as a slacker wastrel, how is it that Naruto became a typical overworked Kage like those that came before him? Didn't Naruto's development point to him doing things differently? On his own terms and with his own panache? Why did he end up a shackled-to-his-job boss, drinking and dining al desko, who's apparently abandoning his family time? Tackling the realities of life do not have to come at the cost of your goals, your dreams and apparently your soul. But the happy Naruto that swore to be a the Hokage, even if he was still a genin, has long since been forgotten. And there is no explanation as to how or why.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but one of the things I was most looking forward to at the end of the manga (outside of the NS) was seeing Naruto's rise to the Hokage seat and how he was going to shake things up. I was looking forward to seeing him ruffle feathers and watch the old ways bend to him, instead of him trying to fit into a society that didn't accept him for most of his life. Outside of the bait-and-switch of the romance, I think the depriving readers of the seeing Naruto fulfill his dreams as Hokage, even if it was just a single chapter, is the biggest disappointment in the manga. I would have rather seen that than dashing through the images of the rookies in 700. 

 

• Kakashi as Kage doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I expected it. However, that is because I would assume Naruto would rather not be Hokage yet, thinking it too stifling to a young man who likes to be really active and involved. Kakashi as Kage gives Naruto a chance to matrue and be mentored into the position. It also give him someone to fall back on in case things go wrong, as Kakashi's quite a bit younger than Tsunade. Yet none of this scenario is even hinted at in the manga. As Nate said, instead of Karachi stepping up to help his student make the transition, it is implied that Kakashi is doing it in Obito's stead. And I hate that as readers we're forced to accept Obito's redemption over and over again, when he is the biggest, most horrendous villain of the series. He directly caused the deaths of so many people, in such horrible ways and for such personal reasons, that he puts Kaguya, the puppet-villain, to shame. 

 

• And for Sakura...it's the ultimate injustice. She got demoted, plain and simple, through no fault of her own. She lost her development, which is never explained, and she is awarded to someone who hates her, and the one who loves her broke his own ninja way to be with another. There are no words that could ever make what happened to her fair.

 

I know for a fact I gotta share this with my friend Gil, Tricksie-chan, especially since he's loved some of the posts from so many of us here at Heaven & Earth, and yeah, he's not an NS shipper, BUT he believes in logic and the fact NS was hinted at more than anything else. ^_^ :love: You rock, you know that, right, Tricks-chan? :wub:



#39 Nate River

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:16 PM

• Kakashi as Kage doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I expected it. However, that is because I would assume Naruto would rather not be Hokage yet, thinking it too stifling to a young man who likes to be really active and involved. Kakashi as Kage gives Naruto a chance to matrue and be mentored into the position. It also give him someone to fall back on in case things go wrong, as Kakashi's quite a bit younger than Tsunade. Yet none of this scenario is even hinted at in the manga. As Nate said, instead of Karachi stepping up to help his student make the transition, it is implied that Kakashi is doing it in Obito's stead. And I hate that as readers we're forced to accept Obito's redemption over and over again, when he is the biggest, most horrendous villain of the series. He directly caused the deaths of so many people, in such horrible ways and for such personal reasons, that he puts Kaguya, the puppet-villain, to shame.


And there is the other problem with it. Why does Tsunade vacate the position? No idea. I'd assume it's just to make way for the next generation and all, but (1) that's Kakashi only in a literal sense (in the story it's portrayed as Naruto's generation and (2) it's a pure assumption. It's not obivous to me she'd do that just for it's own sake if people like her and she's doing a good job. I guess she could be tired of it but she really hasn't ever expressed anything like that.

Why is Naruto by passed is the other issue Again, it's probably because "he is not ready." But it's not stated that this is the case. As I said, I think he is not ready, but I also know my opinion of Naruto's words and deeds isn't the same as Kishimoto's and certainly no characters express doubt on the matter. Did Naruto think he was not ready? Did someone else? Who knows, and the case is never made in the story as to WHY Naruto is not ready.

Kakashi is Hokage and then Naruto is. That's it.

The execution is just awful.

Edited by Nate River, 09 December 2014 - 08:18 PM.


#40 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:42 PM

And there is the other problem with it. Why does Tsunade vacate the position? No idea. I'd assume it's just to make way for the next generation and all, but (1) that's Kakashi only in a literal sense (in the story it's portrayed as Naruto's generation and (2) it's a pure assumption. It's not obivous to me she'd do that just for it's own sake if people like her and she's doing a good job. I guess she could be tired of it but she really hasn't ever expressed anything like that.

Why is Naruto by passed is the other issue Again, it's probably because "he is not ready." But it's not stated that this is the case. As I said, I think he is not ready, but I also know my opinion of Naruto's words and deeds isn't the same as Kishimoto's and certainly no characters express doubt on the matter. Did Naruto think he was not ready? Did someone else? Who knows, and the case is never made in the story as to WHY Naruto is not ready.

Kakashi is Hokage and then Naruto is. That's it.

The execution is just awful.

 

Kakashi becomes hokage simply to promote the movie. That's why he's teased to death in the trailers. It's to get gullible fans into the theater out of expectation that Kakashi is more important than ever. Logically, Tsunade would've remained hokage and eventually passed the title down to Naruto.

Granted, Naruto could've been made Hokage directly after the war. He had the strength and support of the village. Tsunade could help him adjust by playing an advisory role until she was no longer needed. But yeah, marketing. That's all it's about to Moneymoto.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 09 December 2014 - 08:43 PM.

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