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When exactly did the fights start to suck?


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#1 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:39 PM

One thing that doesn't get discussed enough around here is how the fights started to go downhill in this manga. I remember back when all the battles were about strategy as opposed necessarily to who was the most powerful. Naruto himself was impressive not for his massive chakra reserves, but for his wiley and ingenuous use of shadowclones. Remember when he forced Zabuza to release Kakashi from that water prison or how he damaged Gaara enough to force him to let his tailed beast take control. He was more or less shaping himself up to be Joseph Joestar of this manga; he plays the fool, but is in reality one step ahead of his foes.

 

So how in blazes have we gone from the fights being clever games of cat and mouse to rockem sockem Dragon Ball Z power fests? Where victory is attained through constant asspull powerups? Where even the most hyped fight in the series (Naruto vs Sasuke rematch) was ultimately underwhelming. It's a travesty.


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#2 Wubbzy

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:25 PM

I found myself questioning this. That's why I can't help but love part 1. It had amazing fights with strategy and made me believe that this was a ninja manga. 

 

Part 2, I guess, is where it started. Part one had amazing fights filled with strategy and deception etc. Those were my favorite. Part 2 (especially the war arc), was where it got to DBZ moves, which really made me sad. 

 

I'm glad you brought this up, because everything you said is how I feel about the fights. It's why I got so bored by the end of the manga. Kishi had such a good opportunity to do so much more with it, but instead settled for what we got. 


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#3 sushi.

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:02 AM

When they became gods. Naruto currently uses Kurama mode to take out wieners. He is the strongest ninja in the world but has no actual ninja skills, I bet he can barely wield a kunai. :hm:


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#4 Aevrum

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:16 AM

The fight against Kakuzu, when Naruto joined and finished him nearly instantly with his Rasenshuriken. After that, there was no turning back to old power-levels and with it, strategic fighting.

#5 Phantom_999

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:03 AM

At the start of the war arc if You ask me

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#6 James S Cassidy

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 08:26 AM

The last true good fight was Pein. At least that is my opinion.


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#7 harry4e

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:17 AM

The fight against Pain was the last good fight, it had careful planning, and trickery needed to defeat an enemy who was obviously stronger. After that the power levels went bonkers, and it became more about getting free power-ups, characters showing more strength than they'd previously showed and the foundation the manga had been built on was slowly being destroyed, with the final battle being a complete farce, the final move was meant to be a throwback to the usual typical Naruto's use of deception, trickery, and confusion, but it ended up looking ridiculous and underwhelming.


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#8 rocci

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:22 AM

@throughtwithlove
The battle become suck in part 2, more precisely in war arc not really because of "dbz"-esque fight but more to how bad the writing has become.
Before that the battle has some kind of plot hole, like sasuke vs deidara.

Imo naruto is as strategic as the other shonen battle manga. Naruto is not one step ahead than his opponent, he just a good reactionary fighting. The only time he has strategy when he blow gara armor.
Naruto big chakra is what make him impressive since having big chakra is a big deal if not the biggest deal. It is what seperate kakashi with top tier.

#9 rocci

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:29 AM

@harry
Kishi need to nerf pain in order to make naruto doesn't get steamroll by them. Imo naruto vs pein should be the time when naruto use kurama mode rather than sm Eventhough I think sm is cooler than km.

#10 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:10 PM

Looking back, minus Sakura's fight, part 2 beginning is where the fight begins to loses its value. Some of the bigger ones gets better. Pain's fight was the last good one. After that, it doesn't recover. I mean some scenes are cool but a full-fledged fight drags on, tiresome exposition, and most of the time comes out lucky than well planned or endurance pays off.

It was War Arc that made the fight uninteresting, uneventful, and exposed greatly to its problem. There's some strategy early on, but it all comes down to big bang and explosion. It becomes all flash but no substance. Some didn't even matter anymore, so it's hard to care. Why you think some only talk about elsewhere like pairings. Now Boruto is ready to carry over. How fascinating.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 25 February 2017 - 01:12 PM.


#11 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:49 PM

I say it was the Sasuke and Naruto big fight at the end of Part one. Then the sasuke fights in Part two. That led to what we got by the end.

 

In theory the three fight between the strongest characters in part one were Zabuza and Kakashi, Orochimaru and the Third, and Tsunade and Orochimaru. The first is suppose to shows us what a battle between two elite ninja looks like, the second is suppose to be a legendary battle that only Kage class ninja could fight at, the third fight is suppose to show us the strength of the new hokage, but all these fights look utterly tame compared to how the fight got to by the end.

 

Now I'm going to quickly go over most Naruto's fight and how they escalated.

 

Naruto v. Mizuki: Naruto tried out his shadow clones for the first time against and overly arrogant foe. He surprised his enemy into shock by summoning hundreds then just beat him up while he just stood there.

 

Team 7 v. Kakashi: Kakashi was a jonin while they weren't even genin yet. He played around with each of them, with only Sasuke surprising him by showing he could use an elemental jutsu. Which was more impressive to him then Naruto's shadow clones, despite we later learn Sasuke clan are experts at fire element techniques and learn them from an early age. You can already see where I may be going with this.

 

Naruto & Sasuke v. Haku: Haku was an prodigy that was and Anbu class ninja despite his young age. He trapped the two of them in a dome of ice where he would then slowly wear them down to exhaustion with a thousand cuts from his needles. He could have killed the two instantly at anytime but he had a soft heart, and simply want to keep them from interfering with his master battle and mission. This also hampered him since his dome was slowly draining him. Naruto made his goal to busted out by destroying the mirrors, while Sasuke notice Haku slowing down and decided to take pot shots at him. This quickly drained Haku and he realized he needed to knock them out starting with Naruto and then Sasuke. Then those two had an emotional moment, and Naruto activated Kurama's power. The two were outclassed the entire battle until Naruto activated his last resort power.

 

Naruto v. Kiba & Akamaru: Naruto had his power sealed by Orochimaru there by crippling him when he faces off against a two on one where all his classmates don't believe he stands a chance against his opponents. his opponents had a incredible sense of smell, fast, have pills that could increase their power, and a tag team technique that uses all their strengths in a flying drill move. He managed to defeat both by trickery by turning their enhance sense of smell against them.

 

Naruto v. Neji: Neji was a gifted prodigy from the villages most power clan and a year older then him. He also have all seeing telescopic eyes, a fighting style that target their opponents very ability to use their power, and a defensive technique that pushes all his enemies away. Naruto spends the fight trying to land a hit on him. Which he was final able to manage by tricking Neji into thinking he was knocked out while he dug underground to land an attack on him.

 

Naruto v. Gaara: There were two stages to this fight. One was the sand armor part the other the giant fight. For the Sand armor part Naruto quickly was able to think up a plan where he figured the weakest point of the armor would be the ass. So he spent alot of energy get an explosive there. Once he did and the armor was weakened he then ganged up on him with his clones and pummeled him. Then part two he summon a giant frog who explained to him his next objective. He needed to beat up gaara on top of the giant to him wake up which would weakness the giant.

 

Naruto v. Kabuto: Kabuto is a person that is consider to be on Kakashi's level, and was just able to hold his own against Tsunade who is soon going to be the next hokage. He is a medical ninja that uses his ability to harm instead of help. He was able to beat him able letting him attack him so he grab hold of him. Then use his new technique to defeat him.

 

Naruto v. Sasuke: Now then if you have notice a trend in all the fight I have brought up there are three things in each. One that was on a weight class above Naruto in someway. Two the had their ability shown and explained during the fight and their limitation after they were defeated. Three  then once those abilities are shown Naruto has a objective of getting around those abilities in order to beat the guy up and generally used trickery that used either his opponents strengths and/or weaknesses against them. This fight it just showing off power with constant escalation, and Naruto goal isn't to beat Sasuke but to reason with Sasuke. Naruto uses shadow clones, Sasuke uses fire jutsu. Naruto uses the rasengan, Sasuke uses the chidori. Naruto is able to hold his own, Sasuke uses the curse seal. Naruto uses kurama's power, Sasuke unlocks his completed Sharingan. Naruto uses the chakra cloak, Sasuke uses curse seal level two. 

 

Ultimately I believe the power level of the fights went off the scale because of Sasuke. Kishimoto for most of his characters is able to keep them grounded and show them competently in a fight even with the limits of their abilities. The problems is that one Sasuke is Naruto final opponent so his must always be stronger then him, two since we don't follow Sasuke on his journey we don't know how he got those power, their limitations or their growth, and since Sasuke has to keep up with Naruto but we don't see his growth eventually even when kishimoto does put limits on Sasuke abilities they have to be ignored so he can be a match for Naruto who in theory we have been following all this time. Also most of his fight were bull kitten.

 

Sasuke Part two fights

 

Sasuke v. Orochimaru: Orochimaru was sick and his body was already failing him when Sasuke betrayed him. Then was able to defeat him in a battle of wills. Allowing Sasuke to remain in control and gain a healing factor while Orochimaru went... somewhere?

 

Sasuke v. Deidara: Honestly this was Sasuke best fight in part two. He was able to defeat Deidara because his lighting cancelled out his earth bombs. Then the kitten that was the Snake shield happened at the end.

 

Sasuke v. Itachi: Genjutsu for the first half which Sasuke eventually won for some reason. Then skipping everything else to speed this up. Itachi ends up dying once he had won while he was throwing the fight the entire time.

 

Sasuke v. Killer Bee: Was his second best fight in part two. Bee lighting and sword play made him a match for Sasuke, and while Sasuke did have experience fighting a container before Killer bee was much more experience then Naruto.  Then he threw the fight.

 

Sasuke v. The Four Kages. Sasuke despite his record so far of his enemies throwing their fights against him was somehow able to hold his own against the strongest ninjas in the world. By constantly pulling out new powers from his sharingan.

 

Sasuke v. Danzo: Despite Sasuke should be exhausted from his previous fight he is able to hold his own against Danzo. Thankfully Danzo used a technique in the fight that had an incredibly strict time limit.

 

Sasuke in the war arc: I'm trying to remember what he even did? Since he just stood around most of the time while other people fought.

 

Naruto v. Sasuke round two: More talking and more matching power for power with also power escalation. Naruto's Shadown Clones against Sasuke's fire techniques. Naruto's rasengan against Sasuke's lighting techniques. Naruto's power from Kurama against Sasuke increasingly overpowered Sharingin abilities.

 

All this led the Last move fight between Toneri and Naruto which was describe as Dragonball z lite. As well as Bolt fighting a god in his first fight.

 

Edit: For those that are wondering I think Naruto only had two real fights in part two. Naruto v. Kazaku and Naruto v. Pein.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 27 February 2017 - 12:04 AM.


#12 Liu bie

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:51 PM

For me since the Naruto vs Gaara since there I just became a NS fan.


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#13 Nostradamus

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 06:05 PM

To answer all questions regarding, when did x started to suck?

The answer is simple and it will all always be this: When Yahagi left.


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#14 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:25 PM

To answer all questions regarding, when did x started to suck?
The answer is simple and it will all always be this: When Yahagi left.

So basically after Sasuke vs. Itachi. Well it's fitting. I mean I enjoyed Pain's fight, but perhaps it could have been more?

#15 Lid

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:48 PM

For me, some red flags actually started happening after the time skip. While Sakura had a great fight in the first arc, I was rather disappointed that Naruto had barely developed and the only thing he really learned was how to make a bigger rasengan.

 

Even the fight with the wind rasengan was a bit lame for me since it was Naruto just trying to do the same attack a few times. The fight with Pain, though, was pretty good to start with, showing a lot of variety. 

That was sort of a lone bright spot, I think. As the series got closer to the war arc, it started going more downhill. Then when the war actually showed up, it went completely off the rails for me.

 

The war, for example, all took place basically at once, in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cannon fodder ninjas fighting reanimated dead. It got old so fast and there wasn't anything to latch onto in the action.

 

Then Naruto and Sasuke having god-like powers made it even more ridiculous. I always figured that the two would get to a really high level, but it went way too far.


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#16 Nate River

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 08:44 PM

For me, some red flags actually started happening after the time skip. While Sakura had a great fight in the first arc, I was rather disappointed that Naruto had barely developed and the only thing he really learned was how to make a bigger rasengan.

 

Even the fight with the wind rasengan was a bit lame for me since it was Naruto just trying to do the same attack a few times. The fight with Pain, though, was pretty good to start with, showing a lot of variety. 

That was sort of a lone bright spot, I think. As the series got closer to the war arc, it started going more downhill. Then when the war actually showed up, it went completely off the rails for me.

 

The war, for example, all took place basically at once, in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of cannon fodder ninjas fighting reanimated dead. It got old so fast and there wasn't anything to latch onto in the action.

 

Then Naruto and Sasuke having god-like powers made it even more ridiculous. I always figured that the two would get to a really high level, but it went way too far.

 

Naruto/Kakuzu and Shikamaru/Hidan was where it started to decline for me. I like the Pein fight, but it was more a bright spot on a downward trend. I hate that an Akatsuki was so one-dimensional, but Naruto/Kakuzu was worse. As you say, it was a bigger Rasengan and Kakuzu fell for a basic Shadow Clone fake out that the manga became dependent on. Even Boruto's recent fight was a variation of this.

 

It always bothered me that a ninja who had lived through several decades in that profession and had survived fighting the first fell for such a cheap fake. 



#17 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 01:37 AM

 
Naruto/Kakuzu and Shikamaru/Hidan was where it started to decline for me. I like the Pein fight, but it was more a bright spot on a downward trend. I hate that an Akatsuki was so one-dimensional, but Naruto/Kakuzu was worse. As you say, it was a bigger Rasengan and Kakuzu fell for a basic Shadow Clone fake out that the manga became dependent on. Even Boruto's recent fight was a variation of this.
 
It always bothered me that a ninja who had lived through several decades in that profession and had survived fighting the first fell for such a cheap fake. 

You know, the more I look back at that, it is pretty cheap to have him fall for it. There could have been a much clever way to do it, but the first stage is all it takes. At least it was smart when he fought Neji. That was nice.

#18 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 10:14 PM

I say it was the Sasuke and Naruto big fight at the end of Part one. Then the sasuke fights in Part two. That led to what we got by the end.

 

In theory the three fight between the strongest characters in part one were Zabuza and Kakashi, Orochimaru and the Third, and Tsunade and Orochimaru. The first is suppose to shows us what a battle between two elite ninja looks like, the second is suppose to be a legendary battle that only Kage class ninja could fight at, the third fight is suppose to show us the strength of the new hokage, but all these fights look utterly tame compared to how the fight got to by the end.

 

Now I'm going to quickly go over most Naruto's fight and how they escalated.

 

Naruto v. Mizuki: Naruto tried out his shadow clones for the first time against and overly arrogant foe. He surprised his enemy into shock by summoning hundreds then just beat him up while he just stood there.

 

Team 7 v. Kakashi: Kakashi was a jonin while they weren't even genin yet. He played around with each of them, with only Sasuke surprising him by showing he could use an elemental jutsu. Which was more impressive to him then Naruto's shadow clones, despite we later learn Sasuke clan are experts at fire element techniques and learn them from an early age. You can already see where I may be going with this.

 

Naruto & Sasuke v. Haku: Haku was an prodigy that was and Anbu class ninja despite his young age. He trapped the two of them in a dome of ice where he would then slowly wear them down to exhaustion with a thousand cuts from his needles. He could have killed the two instantly at anytime but he had a soft heart, and simply want to kill them from interfering with his master battle and mission. This also hampered him since his dome was slowly draining him. Naruto made his goal to busted out by destroying the mirrors, while Sasuke notice Haku slowing down and decided to take pot shots at him. This quickly drained Haku and he realized he needed to knock them out starting with Naruto and then Sasuke. Then those two had an emotional moment, and Naruto activated Kurama's power. The two were outclassed the entire battle until Naruto activated his last resort power.

 

Naruto v. Kiba & Akamaru: Naruto had his power sealed by Orochimaru there by crippling him when he faces off against a two on one where all his classmates don't believe he stands a chance against his opponents. his opponents had a incredible sense of smell, fast, have pills that could increase their power, and a tag team technique that uses all their strengths in a flying drill move. He managed to defeat both by trickery by turning their enhance sense of smell against them.

 

Naruto v. Neji: Neji was a gifted prodigy from the villages most power clan and a year older then him. He also have all seeing telescopic eyes, a fighting style that target their opponents very ability to use their power, and a defensive technique that pushes all his enemies away. Naruto spends the fight trying to land a hit on him. Which he was final able to manage by tricking Neji into thinking he was knocked out while he dug underground to land an attack on him.

 

Naruto v. Gaara: There were two stages to this fight. One was the sand armor part the other the giant fight. For the Sand armor part Naruto quickly was able to think up a plan where he figured the weakest point of the armor would be the ass. So he spent alot of energy get an explosive there. Once he did and the armor was weakened he then ganged up on him with his clones and pummeled him. Then part two he summon a giant frog who explained to him his next objective. He needed to beat up gaara on top of the giant to him wake up which would weakness the giant.

 

Naruto v. Kabuto: Kabuto is a person that is consider to be on Kakashi's level, and was just able to hold his own against Tsunade who is soon going to be the next hokage. He is a medical ninja that uses his ability to harm instead of help. He was able to beat him able letting him attack him so he grab hold of him. Then use his new technique to defeat him.

 

Naruto v. Sasuke: Now then if you have notice a trend in all the fight I have brought up there are three things in each. One that was on a weight class above Naruto in someway. Two the had their ability shown and explained during the fight and their limitation after they were defeated. Three  then once those abilities are shown Naruto has a objective of getting around those abilities in order to beat the guy up and generally used trickery that used either his opponents strengths and/or weaknesses against them. This fight it just showing off power with constant escalation, and Naruto goal isn't to beat Sasuke but to reason with Sasuke. Naruto uses shadow clones, Sasuke uses fire jutsu. Naruto uses the rasengan, Sasuke uses the chidori. Naruto is able to hold his own, Sasuke uses the curse seal. Naruto uses kurama's power, Sasuke unlocks his completed Sharingan. Naruto uses the chakra cloak, Sasuke uses curse seal level two. 

 

 

 

Looking back on it, I have to agree with this. I used to really like the first VotE fight, but in hindsight, it was basically a big power fest. It wasn't about who was the better shinobi, but rather who had the most hax abilities. Going all the way back to the first bell test and the Zabuza fight, Naruto's strengths was his trickster mindset. All of his immature pranks led up to him being able to outwit otherwise superior foes. If the VotE fight were to have served any purpose, it ought to have been that blind brute force is useless and that Naruto ought to stick to his strengths. Then, come timeskip, Naruto comes back more mature but with his prankster tactics taken to a whole new level (i.e. explosive tags disguised as shadowclones via subtle use of the transformation jutsu, immunity to sneak attacks via secretly having multiple observant shadowclones in hiding at all times). When you can hide and make an army of yourself at the drop of a button, there's no limit to the number of tactics you can employ.

 

And so I'm amazed that Kishi could not think of anything beyond endless rasengan spam over the course of 400+ chapters. The first post-timeskip arc should have ended with Naruto outwitting and beating Deidara outright and establishing himself as a unique and serious powerhouse. Instead, readers like myself sat there wondering whether he had been sitting on his ass for the last 2.5 years.There are so many ways Naruto's fights could have been written that there was never a need to give him back to back powerups. Full control of the kyuubi's chakra should've been the limit as far as upgrades were concerned.

 

 

 

All this led the Last move fight between Toneri and Naruto which was describe as Dragonball z lite. As well as Bolt fighting a god in his first fight.

 

Edit: For those that are wondering I think Naruto only had two real fights in part two. Naruto v. Kazaku and Naruto v. Pein.

 

As others have pointed out though, even Naruto vs Kakuzu was kind of lackluster. I mean yes, Naruto did use his head, but it was just the basic shadowclone switcheroo. Something he had already been capable of doing as far back as his fight with Neji. For a fight against a guy who had fought the first Hokage, I think we could've gotten something a little more robust as far as strategy goes. Like maybe the real Naruto had never even stepped foot on the battlefield,  was using clones the entire time to bait Kakuzu into thinking he was facing the real deal. Even the people on the sidelines (Kakashi, Sakura, Ino, Chouji and Yamato) think Kakuzu is fighting the real Naruto and we as readers think so as well. Then, just as it looks like Kakuzu has won, the real Naruto appears out of nowhere and scores the finishing blow.


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#19 Yyubie

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 10:20 PM

I agree with those who said Naruto vs Kakuzu, the fact that Kakuzu said that he was once fought against the first hokage (Hashirama) and then survive, then defeated by Naruto like that .... it's bad writing.


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#20 rocci

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 11:23 PM

@bail
I disagree that the first vote fight is the start.
It's pretty much a great fight on its own and that's why the second fight is underwhelming because both can show more and we got just what? 3 chapters worth action for the final fight?

Tbf sasuke get buff because of naruto. By design naruto is way stronger than sasuke, but plot demand naruto and sasuke to be even so you will buff sasuke accordingly to naruto power level.

And you will not see a "ground" level fight like kakashi vs zabuza when the hokage and sanin battles show what the high level ninja could do.




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