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#50561 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 08:57 PM

Easy ways to fix Naruto's hypocrisy:

 

#1. DON'T make him the 4th Hokage's son. A popular idea at the time we were all speculating, but a terrible idea in hindsight. If Naruto is gonna rise to the top through hard work, no notions about his lineage should ever come into the picture. The 4th could've given him the kyuubi as a means of saving a newly orphaned baby who was on the verge of dying as a result of getting caught in the crossfire during the kyuubi's attack. Not only would this solution fix Naruto's hypocrisy, but it would lend credence to why the village hated him and why no ninja has ever stopped to say "Hey, aren't you the 4th Hokage's son?" In a fixed version of the story, Naruto's parents are nobodies who died during the kyuubi's attack.

 

2. Give a better answer for why he has huge chakra reserves. None of this stuff about Uzumakis just having lots of chakra. Instead, Naruto naturally grew such big reserves over time as a result of having to suppress the kyuubi every day. Through his hard work, he became strong. Simple concept.

 

3. DON'T give him Sage of Six Paths Mode. His one and only power-up should have been sage mode. Make him win fights through clever use of ninjutsu (which should always be possible thanks to the unlimited number of uses shadow clones should provide) and his sheer unpredictability as a knuckle head ninja.

 

4. None of this crap about only loving Sakura due to his rivalry with Sasuke.

4. Only existed due to the last. 3. Completely agree with if they wanted to just be a cycle of conflict its fine, but once they made it an "actual" reincarnation conflict; the story went off the rails.

 

The problem with 1. Is that it really isn't explored then that it exist. Did all the adults even know that Naruto was the 4th's son, or did that even matter to them because as far as they were concern he could turn fox at any minute? All the questions of how Naruto was raised when he was young?

 

2. Could also be solved by exploring the Uzumaki clan instead of just focusing on the uchiha's for the entirety of part two.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 11 October 2018 - 10:10 PM.


#50562 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 09:11 PM

 

3 and 4 I agree. 1 and 2 will not work because that will make Naruto very, very bland as a main character to audiences. For #1, pulling that will still have the audiences questioning about Naruto's lineage. Having a leader taking a random baby to seal a demon inside that said baby without the parents' consent, regardless whether they are dead or alive, is a terrible idea to process.

 

As for #2, I just left it alone. Obviously that was Masashi and Yahagi's fault for not explaining more about the Uzumakis while going on with "All My Sasuke" before the other editors went full force with it.

 

In regards to #1, if the author is going to make the point that anybody can rise to the top through hard work and that Neji is wrong about having to be born into the right family and whatnot, Naruto needs to come from nothing and the author needs to avoid ever making Naruto's lineage an issue. As to how Kishi could have gone about doing this: After a long and gruesome battle against the kyuubi, the 4th is just about dead. He sees a dying baby over yonder, realizes that its parents are dead and that its dying as a result of the collateral damage from his fight with the kyuubi. Seeing no other options, realizing that the kyuubi needs to be sealed and making one final act as the Hokage, he transfers the kyuubi into the baby. 


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Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#50563 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:58 AM

Never have there been a more fitting YouTube video title...

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#50564 jak123

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 12:39 AM

Naruto is a piece of kitten because of SP, not because his dad was Minato. There would have been nothing wrong with his dad being Minato if Hinata had been thrown down a bottomless pit.

Yeah, I liked that revelation about Naruto being the 4th's son because Kushina and Minato were great. The only problem I had with it was that it felt like an insert later on because the way people treated him at first. Despite being an orphan and having the nine-tailed fox, you think him being the son of the 4th would have had people treating him differently that how it was depicted early on. Also, the whole nine-tails thing seemed of little importance to the village even though didn't it show that other holders were treated in much higher regard in their villages? I don't know. I think Kishi played a hand for coming up with some of these big ideas later on when they should have been established earlier.


Edited by jak123, 13 October 2018 - 12:41 AM.


#50565 DrK

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 01:27 AM

Yeah, I liked that revelation about Naruto being the 4th's son because Kushina and Minato were great. The only problem I had with it was that it felt like an insert later on because the way people treated him at first. Despite being an orphan and having the nine-tailed fox, you think him being the son of the 4th would have had people treating him differently that how it was depicted early on. Also, the whole nine-tails thing seemed of little importance to the village even though didn't it show that other holders were treated in much higher regard in their villages? I don't know. I think Kishi played a hand for coming up with some of these big ideas later on when they should have been established earlier.

Gaara was feared and hated. Killer Bee's predecessor made it seem like the Hachibi jinchuuriki was respected, but also feared, and as a result lived an isolated life. Water and Stone got basically no exposition at all in that regard. I don't think it was Kishi's intention that Naruto's situation was at all unique in terms of how he was treated.



#50566 jak123

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 02:21 AM

Gaara was feared and hated. Killer Bee's predecessor made it seem like the Hachibi jinchuuriki was respected, but also feared, and as a result lived an isolated life. Water and Stone got basically no exposition at all in that regard. I don't think it was Kishi's intention that Naruto's situation was at all unique in terms of how he was treated.

Oh yeah, Gaara, I forgot about him. Doh. XD



#50567 DrK

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 08:13 AM

Oh yeah, Gaara, I forgot about him. Doh. XD

Naruto having a miserable life was pointless. It would have been good if he ended up being happy with Sakura, but he didn't. He's just a miserable f***. And that's lame and boring.



#50568 tricksie

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 04:40 PM

Easy ways to fix Naruto's hypocrisy:

 

#1. DON'T make him the 4th Hokage's son. A popular idea at the time we were all speculating, but a terrible idea in hindsight. If Naruto is gonna rise to the top through hard work, no notions about his lineage should ever come into the picture. The 4th could've given him the kyuubi as a means of saving a newly orphaned baby who was on the verge of dying as a result of getting caught in the crossfire during the kyuubi's attack. Not only would this solution fix Naruto's hypocrisy, but it would lend credence to why the village hated him and why no ninja has ever stopped to say "Hey, aren't you the 4th Hokage's son?" In a fixed version of the story, Naruto's parents are nobodies who died during the kyuubi's attack.

 

2. Give a better answer for why he has huge chakra reserves. None of this stuff about Uzumakis just having lots of chakra. Instead, Naruto naturally grew such big reserves over time as a result of having to suppress the kyuubi every day. Through his hard work, he became strong. Simple concept.

 

3. DON'T give him Sage of Six Paths Mode. His one and only powerup should have been sage mode. Make him win fights through clever use of ninjutsu (which should always be possible thanks to the unlimited number of uses shadowclones should provide) and his sheer unpredictability as a knuckle head ninja.

 

4. None of this crap about only loving Sakura due to his rivalry with Sasuke.

Love your ideas. 

 

#1. I always felt like they gave away Naruto's THREE secrets too easily. First that Minato was his father. Second, that Kushina was his mother. Third, that he had the kyuubi sealed into him. All three were obscured, yet somehow everyone knows about it, and they treat Naruto like trash anyway. None of this ever made sense to me. Naruto should have been just another war orphan like Sai. A nobody. Not because of a huuuge secret though, but because only a few people knew Minato and Kushina had a thing. And then only a few other people knew Kushina was pregnant. And then, only a very few other people knew about the kyuubi and Minato's ability to seal it into someone. (Those people would be Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi and probably Danzo and the elders. Anyone else who knew (like Itachi) would have had to discover it through nefarious means.) Then Naruto's birth, seal, and subsequent abandonment by the village becomes much less of a plot hole.

 

#2. Chakra reserves - Uzumaki backstory is so desperately needed here. I wish there was a Mina/Kushi gaiden. could have been explained there!

 

#3 - Yes, yes, yes - you're exactly right. His skills should totally support his knuckle-head ninja standing!

 

#4 - yes - that was a bunch of crap.

 

4. Only existed due to the last. 3. Completely agree with if they wanted to just be a cycle of conflict its fine, but once they made it an "actual" reincarnation conflict; the story went off the rails.

 

The problem with 1. Is that it really isn't explored then that it exist. Did all the adults even know that Naruto was the 4th's son, or did that even matter to them because as far as they were concern he could turn fox at any minute? All the questions of how Naruto was raised when he was young?

 

2. Could also be solved by exploring the Uzumaki clan instead of just focusing on the uchiha's for the entirety of part two.

Yes, exactly. The immense chakra reserves thing is RIGHT THERE in the story: in Nagato, in Karin and in Kushina. All they had to do was develop it just a tiny bit to justify Naruto's giant reserves. After all the time spent on the Uchihas back story, it would have been so simple to have developed the Uzumaki line just a little bit. But nope.

 

 

In regards to #1, if the author is going to make the point that anybody can rise to the top through hard work and that Neji is wrong about having to be born into the right family and whatnot, Naruto needs to come from nothing and the author needs to avoid ever making Naruto's lineage an issue. As to how Kishi could have gone about doing this: After a long and gruesome battle against the kyuubi, the 4th is just about dead. He sees a dying baby over yonder, realizes that its parents are dead and that its dying as a result of the collateral damage from his fight with the kyuubi. Seeing no other options, realizing that the kyuubi needs to be sealed and making one final act as the Hokage, he transfers the kyuubi into the baby. 

Yes - that could totally work. Naruto is literally a war orphan with some exceptional properties. That would work out great. I have a rough outline for a fix where Danzo raises Naruto (like Sai), and Naruto's parentage is not a part of the story. Doesn't need to be. So yeah, that solves that whole problem. The reasons why they hid the facts of Naruto's birth parents/situation, from himself and the village, becomes a much bigger problem for the plot because Kishimoto did not go back and develop it.

 

In my other big fic, A Voice in the Wind, I tackle this as well. In my story, Konoha decides to completely hide Naruto's name, identity even existence. The fact that he was the jinchuriki was only known by one or two people. And most of the village had no idea what it even meant. Only elite nins from hidden villages or most prestigious clans knew what a jinchuriki was or how it was contained. So instead, Konoha broadcast someone else as their 'chosen one'...Sasuke.

 

FanFic spoilers...since it pertains to all this

 

There is so much in Naruto that is lacking: backstories of Minato and Kushina and their clans; the jinchurikis and their backgrounds; the bijuu and how they came to be. So much of the focus is on Sasuke and the Uchihas, unfortunately. So it's left to the realm of fanfic to explore all that.



#50569 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 06:17 PM

*Person* So what can you tell me about the Uchiha Clan?

*Kishi spends 6 hours explaining every minute detail*

*Person* What about the Senju or Uzumaki?

*Kishi* ....distantly related...special chakra...

*Person* "Special" how?

*Kishi* Ummm...from the Rikudo Sennin.

*Person* But Naruto is supposed to be no one who gets to where he is through hard work.

*Kishi* ....because he's the Child of Prophecy.

*Person* But Naruto always dismissed fate and destiny to force his own path.

*Kishi* .........ah, that reminds me! The Uchiha....

*Person*  -_-


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#50570 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 03:51 PM

I keep thinking that the problem isn't fully about Naruto being Minato and Kushina's son or being a Jinchuriki, considering that he still for a while had to work hard to be able to do some things, it was just how it was handled, since the concepts are solid, it just was done by piss-poor writing, just like nothing done with the Senju and Uzumaki clans or some of the others. And that also takes me to some relevance to my fanfic and what I was thinking.

 

The idea I had is that for the Senju and Uzumaki clans is that they are descendants of Hagoromo and Hamura, similar to the Uchiha and Hyuga clans, but there were differences, like with many other clans that descended from the brothers. With the Uzumaki clan, besides their chakra having incredible power that could make them excellent hosts for Biju since they could survive for some time after said Biju is removed, their longevity, and their Sealing Jutsu abilities, the Uzumaki clan also was known for their tenacity in many of them, as well as their ability to grow stronger through harder situations, which can be a way to explain how Naruto is able to do some of the things he has done without Kurama's chakra, but with HIS own power, like how he was motivated by Sasuke's words during his fight with Gaara and unleashed a massive Multi Shadow Clone Jutsu, same with fighting Mizuki, and the work he put into learning it in a few hours after reading the scroll he got tricked into stealing. Plus they had been able to do things because of their sealing Jutsu and tenacity that made people fear them, such as the stuff with the Grim Reaper from the Reaper Death Seal Jutsu.

 

With the Senju clan, they'd have picked up Wood-Style Jutsu, even if that also was super rare among them, as well as a connection to nature that was very strong, and also having strong knowledge about Jinchuriki and Biju. But the Senju were also most formidable because of the fact they would be able to learning impressive healing Jutsu they developed, something to pass onto Tsunade, given her being such a skilled medical ninja.

 

As for the distant bonds for the Senju and Uzumaki, I'd say it would stem from their first ancestors in order to make things make sense in the long run too, and that their abilities could co-mingle to make something stronger in the end.

 

Another aspect I'm gonna lose is the reincarnation schtick for Naruto and Sasuke. Instead, I was gonna say the two of them are descendants of Asura and Indra, with Naruto being more distant to explain why he wasn't as talented and such, and while Indra would be more directly related to Sasuke, and by proxy, Madara would be related to Sasuke too, being like his great-great-grandfather or something.

 

I also was thinking more to things with Tobirama and his issues with the Uchiha clan. I was thinking story-wise it wasn't just fear alone that motivated him with his actions about the Uchiha potentially having someone take Madara's place, it also was a sense of hate because of the people he lost to them from his family, without thinking about how Hashirama wanted to try to make things better between them so no children would have to war anymore. I also wanted to think his paranoia, hate, and fear are what led to the current ninja system because he felt the world needed to be prepared for war, only spreading more and more to how things become.

 

Gonna also ditch the child of prophecy part, saying that someone would make a HUGE difference in the ninja world, but neither Hagoromo or Gamamaru would know who that child was, only Gamamaru feeling Jiraiya would be someone who would have an influence on that child. Which is why kitten got nuts when it also came to Nagato on top of Naruto.

 

There is a lot of stuff from the series' canon I want to tweak and work with to make Naruto: The Demon Within feel like something more appropriate in its own ways. There's some aspects I did like from the canon of the manga, I just feel they could have been handled so much better to fit into the narrative of things.



#50571 tricksie

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Posted Yesterday, 04:59 PM

Yessss!!! Bryon, I love reading about your story ideas. So many things I agree with about so many things that went wrong with the manga. The child of prophecy thing being a perfect example. It brought nothing to the plot in the end. So why even have it?! And a big yes to your background with the Senju and Uzumaki, and the Tobirama background. All of that is just right for being written about, since it was in the story but never explored! But that's what fanfic is for, right?  :smile:



#50572 Riverkid

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Posted Yesterday, 09:31 PM

*Person* So what can you tell me about the Uchiha Clan?

*Kishi spends 6 hours explaining every minute detail*
 

I can understand the intention here to a certain extend. You got some important characters (Madara, Itachi, Obito, Sasuke) with each of them having a big role in the story. So trying to cover up their background-story + including the needed details about their special sharingan = requiers a large spectrum of narrative information. The problem is that kishimoto felt the need to extend/fill these informations with more and more unnecessary content. Many of them don't even make sense.

For example:

You got the tension between the Uchiha-Clan and the rest of Konoha. It was so much boiled up that the elders feared a upcoming civil-war. The rumor that the Nine-tailed attack was planned by an uchiha (it was known that uchihas can gain the ability to control the beasts) was also adding more pressure to that tension. The Uchiha-clan received almost no sympathy (few exceptions like the 3rd Hokage). So i dont understand the love/praise for sasuke, since he was the brother of the guy who did the massacre. 

How can they say "Get away from that demon-brat, he can kill us all one day", but they dont come to the conlusion "Throw that Red-Eye out, he will follow the footstep of his brother and repeat the massacre in konoha.. the Uchihas are crazy"

 

Sasuke being the 'prodigy' doesnt make sense either since he was always in the shadow of his brother who achieved much more at his age. Its like "sad, the talented Uchiha-Guy isn't around anymore... wait.. he got a brother! he must be a prodigy too then!!"

 

The are logical errors in the way kishimoto tried to combine his pieces regarding the uchiha-clan.

But hey, Kishimoto would likely say "He got much praise and attention because they felt pity for him after the massacre" (sitting next to him: Naruto, in disbelief).

 

Yeah, I liked that revelation about Naruto being the 4th's son because Kushina and Minato were great. The only problem I had with it was that it felt like an insert later on because the way people treated him at first. Despite being an orphan and having the nine-tailed fox, you think him being the son of the 4th would have had people treating him differently that how it was depicted early on. Also, the whole nine-tails thing seemed of little importance to the village even though didn't it show that other holders were treated in much higher regard in their villages? I don't know. I think Kishi played a hand for coming up with some of these big ideas later on when they should have been established earlier.

 

I agree with the fact that having Naruto as the son of the 4th Hokage/Kushina is a nice and great thing, i'm not a fan of the revelation though. it was so unstatisfying to see the revelation. There will never be a time, where i think that reviving a dead-character for a short amount of time is a good thing. You take away so much of the effect. 

You never saw Minato. You only had a glimpse of him from stories, told by some villagers/elders. He was known to be a killer, a century-talent, a hero who could stand 1-on-1 against the strongest tailed-beast and a guy so strong that all the enemies wanted his head to roll down. You can make up your own impression of him. Personally for me i thought of him as a bad-ass guy with serious priorities as a hokage. And then you 

 

 

see him in the next panel "Hey Naruto, im your father" with a soft-hearted pesonality. It just destroyed my impression and i was left with disappointment.

Also Afterwards, Narutos reaction infront of Kakashi ??? I mean standing infront of him was porpably the last person alive who knew the most about his father.. and he didn't ask a single damn thing.

"How was my Father?"

- Kishimoto: "I think that doesn't sound like a logical question to ask"

"Did u know my mother too? what was her name?"

- Kishimoto: "Should Naruto know at this point that he came out of a Woman, called "mother"?"

 

----[Start of the Conversation about Narutos Father]----
Kakashi: "What did your father say?"
Naruto: "That he is proud of me!"

----[End of the Conversation about Narutos Father]----

- Kishimoto: "Perfect! im such a masterpiece author"

My ideal vision back in the days was having Naruto fighting in some kind of war-scenario, taking out enemies who got revived by edo-tensei until he faces the 4th Hokage who looks similiar too him. Naruto facing his father for the first time, on the battlefield as a opponent. He doesnt even have to know beforehand that the dead-man before him was his father, just the similarity should alrdy point it out, forcing him to feel uncertain through the fight against him. And afterwards confronting kakashi with the question "was the 4th Hokage my father?" with a dead-serious expression. Imagine the tension as a viewer if you see the 4th Hokage for the same time, and he just looks like to be the father.. and he has to fight him right now. that kitten would have gotten me hyped up.

 

Of course with the fact that revived people shouldn't have any soul left or being able to talk.
 

 

I keep thinking that the problem isn't fully about Naruto being Minato and Kushina's son or being a Jinchuriki, considering that he still for a while had to work hard to be able to do some things, it was just how it was handled, since the concepts are solid, it just was done by piss-poor writing, just like nothing done with the Senju and Uzumaki clans or some of the others. And that also takes me to some relevance to my fanfic and what I was thinking.

I agree with many of your following points, and i also really do like your ideas and thoughts-process behind your concepts to fix issues. But i think the issue wasn't "doing them in a poor way" but more "having them taking such a big role in the first place".

Thats mainly because im not really interested in the clan-stories, and i think they shouldn't take such a big role in the plot. 

 

It doesnt matter how much u try to fix these background-stories, it still leads to the same problem: Konoha got all the important history-interfaces and the other villages are meaningless. The source of every big event lies in konoha. they have the strongest shinobis, the strongest clans, they got the re-incarnation of X and Y. they got everything.

There are other villages, there are other clans and other characters lack so much depth, and primary because Kishimoto focused to much on konoha, specific clans (uchiha) and the history. I wanted to see Naruto growing up from Zero to Hero, in a World filled with interesting and detailed characters/places/styles/villages etc. i dont want to go through 30%-Screen-Time-History-Class in the last Arcs on how interesting the build-up of konoha and their clans was. 

i would welcome more details on other parts of the story, rather than having a fixed history/clan background. 

because you don't need it.

Naruto doesn't need a big chakra pool. I dont want to see him making 1000 clones who fight like fresh-up genins without any use of brain, or him throwing flashy jutsus just to miss 80% of them. 4-5 clones with a smart-use is enough (like in Part-1). I mean Sasuke has the same chakra-pool as him, litteraly. There was never a hint of Sasuke having less chakra than Naruto.. he could always keep up with him without a tailed beast or being a uzumaki-member.

Hyuga-Clan doesnt need such a OP-eyepower. they can just have their own martial-art style with the focus to hit the choke-points of the human body and a good chakra-control to force all their power into their hands. 

The uchihas can also just have their own style of training where they read the body-language to read enemy movements and react/counter them in addition having fire/lighting style jutsus. 

Etc. etc.

all in all u still have unique clans without digging so DEEP in the history to explain their source. And you can have this cute love-story between Naruto and Sakura, both having 0 Clan-Bonus and just trying to achieve their goals just with amibition and hard work. 

EDIT:

 

but thats only my preferred view of course, everyone got their own preferences and ideas on how to improve the story


Edited by Riverkid, Yesterday, 09:38 PM.


#50573 tricksie

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Posted Today, 03:15 AM

/\Really like the idea of Naruto seeing/meeting his father for the first time on the battlefield. I don't remember seeing it anywhere, in fanfic or anything, before.Definitely sets up some good scenarios and interactions.

 

I agree with the idea of not resurrecting people. At least not to interact and do battle again. I don't mind the falshbacks, but the way the whole battlefield stuff with every old ghost coming back just felt like a big gimmick to boost readership. Instead of having to actualy create new characters and storyline for the last big arc.

 

Lastly, yeah, so much focus was solely on Konoha, and then later on the Uchihas. The Narutoverse is a big big world, but instead of the plot expanding over time to explore that world, the story just funneled down to the Uchiha clan in the end. 






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