64 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Um, Sakura has in some episodes or filler episodes thought she was flat or Hinata was so much bigger than her, but I don't think it's canon though. And to be honest it's insulting to her character to do that even for the sake of comedy. The thing is the Hinata comparison was made in the RTN prequel one-shot done by Kishi himself, so yeah. Honestly doing that is kind of telling women their bodes will never meet a certain standard and that destroys someone's peception of their self image. it is hurtful and dangerous

Edited by Phantom_999, 28 September 2014 - 04:46 PM.

[Jenskott]

 

Um, Sakura has in some episodes or filler episodes thought she was flat or Hinata was so much bigger than her, but I don't think it's canon though. 

 

Oh, wow, it happened in some filler episodes. The same material that spawned Magical Girl Hinata, Tiger Mizuki, Hinata performing a jutsu that she was unable to do before the War, Psychotic Hyperviolent Awful Cook Sakura, Karin having met Sasuke in a radically different situation... It is not a wonder that I am unaware of those instances, since I do not watch the anime. Yes, I am afraid that the anime adaptation with its usual violations of canon, lore and characters' personalities does not count. And let's not forget that the anime character designer draws Sakura's chest tinier than it is.

 

Anyway, thinking that someone has a bigger chest does not mean that you think that your chest is small.

 

Mazinger Angels volume 1 chapter 2 page 16

 

 

 And to be honest it's insulting to her character to do that even for the sake of comedy. the thing is the Hinata comparison was made in the RTN prequel one-shot done by Kishi himself, so yeah. Honestly doing that is kind of telling women their bodes will never meet a certain standard and that's destroy's someone's peception of their self image. it is hurtful and dangrous

 

 

I agree.

 

I find it quite insulting. My big sister had some breast-size-related self-esteem issues despite of I saying her that she was perfectly fine. I disliked to see her sad or even depressed due to that nosense, so I do not enjoy that kind of idiotic cliches in my fiction.

[harry4e]

 

That IS Tsundere behaviour.

 

Sayaka Yumi, Lum... All of them are archetypal examples of tsundere and ALL of them show that behaviour.

 

 

No it really isn't, A Tsundere is Mikato from Toaru, or Chitoge from Nisekoi, or Misty from Pokemon, and half the charactors voiced by Rei Kugimiya, they have difficulty showing their love for a charactor so they end up insulting them or appearing cold and indifferent making the MC think they might not even like them. Mikato always calls Touma 'You', I don't think I ever remember her calling him by his name, Chitoge always insults the MC calling him a Beansprout, Yet these two charactors have admitted to themselves that they are in love with the main charactor. If Tsundere just meant a charactor who was hard on the MC, Index from Toaru would also be considered a Tsundere, but she's not, she's just a greedy person who likes to eat him out of house and home. Sakura has shown she loves Naruto, though it hasn't become clear if she herself has realised she is In Love with him. Nami as sworn loyalty to Luffy and would die for him, but she won't stand for his usual hairbrained schemes that will get them all in trouble (also all potential romance has been cut from the manga) and Rukia actually could be a Tsundere.

 

 Tsun - Dere, meaning they show their love (dere) by being mean/cold/indifferent (Tsun)

Edited by harry4e, 27 September 2014 - 02:48 AM.

[Jenskott]

No it really isn't, A Tsundere is Mikato from Toaru, or Chitoge from Nisekoi, or Misty from Pokemon, and half the charactors voiced by Rei Kugimiya, they have difficulty showing their love for a charactor so they end up insulting them or appearing cold and indifferent making the MC think they might not even like them. Mikato always calls Touma 'You', I don't think I ever remember her calling him by his name, Chitoge always insults the MC calling him a Beansprout, Yet these two charactors have admitted to themselves that they are in love with the main charactor. If Tsundere just meant a charactor who was hard on the MC, Index from Toaru would also be considered a Tsundere, but she's not, she's just a greedy person who likes to eat him out of house and home. Sakura has shown she loves Naruto, though it hasn't become clear if she herself has realised she is In Love with him. Nami as sworn loyalty to Luffy and would die for him, but she won't stand for his usual hairbrained schemes that will get them all in trouble (also all potential romance has been cut from the manga) and Rukia actually could be a Tsundere.

 

 Tsun - Dere, meaning they show their love (dere) by being mean/cold/indifferent (Tsun)

 

 

Yes, it really IS. And I do not know why you have posted that paragraph when:

 

First - You tell a list of characters that according you are or are not tsunderes but you never explain why they are or are not tsunderes (And I have no idea of who Mikato or Chikoge are. First time that I have heard of them. But that is another matter).

 

Second - You put words on my mouth. When did I say that a Tsundere is a character that beats the MC?

 

Third - You have come up with a completely arbitrary definition in order to try to prove your argument. That is NOT what "tsundere" means and that is not what a tsundere is (and "dere" is not love, either).

 

From wikipedia:

 

"Tsundere (ツンデレ^?, pronounced [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. The word is derived from the terms tsun tsun (ツンツン^?), meaning to turn away in disgust, and dere dere (デレデレ^?) meaning to become 'lovey dovey'."

 

That is the official definition, and it is not what you say what it is.

 

The tvtropes article goes in greater depth (Although it is fulll with mistakes): Tsundere

 

So yes, according the official definition Sakura IS a tsundere because she was initially hostile towards Naruto and gradually showed him her soft side.

 

"She would die for him but she would not stand for his hare-brained schemes" sounds like a sentence that would be used to describe most tsunderes, too. It perfectly describes Sayaka Yumi, one of the characters that defined the trope.

 

Your definition is completely arbitrary, and if we were to accept it instead of the official one, most  tsundere characters would stop to be consider tsunderes... including the classic characters that defined the trope!

 

The trouble is that the trope has gone off rails through years of overexposure and misuse, so a lot of people -including anime fans in spite of they should know better- has got stuck in their heads the erroneous idea that tsundere means "Hyper-violent girl that hits the boy that she likes". That IS not what the word means and the archetype is way more complex, but that misconception generates all kind of mistakes.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah and it's not helped by the fact that tsunderes ARE stereotyped to have a violent side to them just for the sake of humor. That side is too over represented in anime in this 21st century. I honestly wonder why Japanese culture think girl hitting guy slapstick is so funny, unless they just enjoy the irony that the typical japanese female is not at all raised to behave like that and just play it up for kicks and giggles. In actuality, a girl turning their nose away from a guy in contempt  whether it be they don't like him (yet) or in embarassment with the typical "hmph" sound is also a sign she's a tsundere. It is beyond just hitting a guy that they like, they have to show a tough and hard to open  exterior to actually fit the trope, or if they are type B (the actually sweet type), then them must have something that triggers their anger and truly does not have to be involvng their love interest although that is the most common berserk button. It's beyond me why just showing that behaviour towards a love interest is all that is needed to say they are a tsundere. 

 

BTW I also enjoy works like Fairy Tail where slapstick involves both genders, not just males. It's a breath of fresh air to me really.

Edited by Phantom_999, 28 September 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[rikakim94]

 

No, they are not.

 

 

Nami from One Piece.

 

 

Tsunade from Naruto.

 

 

Kyoko Otonashi from Maison Ikkoku

 

Usually either they are buxom or they have a normal chest. Again, I do not get why some people think that smaller than D-cup=flat.

 

Some tsundere characters complain about having small breasts, but their breast size is perfectly normal and their complains are exclusively due to self-esteem issues.

 

 

Akane Tendo from Ranma 1/2. The idiot main character often teases her about her chest, but she looks flat-chested to you?

Come on. Tsunderes always or usually being flat-chested is a nothing but fandom myth what has nothing to do with reality. It is like the "the butler did it" cliche in detective novels. They has barely been used but people is convinced of it is a frequent and overused cliche.

 

 

I agree. MattxSora is also pretty cliche.

 

Its refreshing to hear you say that soraxmatt is a cliche ive gotten tried of hearing thats it refreashing/unique just because it avoid popular main guy main girl pair and it rarely get canonized  DOES NOT MEAN ALL CLICHE IS AVOIDED. Unfortunately even the director seems to fall for that excuse and thats pretty much reason why he did pair tai and sora together. Whats ironic is that sorato already is cliche pairing from the start you have the pretty boy/cool who happens to have a sad sympathetic back story that he told to sora. Then sora sympathies it and begins to fall for that image isn't that the obivious nice girl heals the bad boy cliche in this case its the cool guy cliche? While thats happening tai does everything for sora even till the point he saves her numerous times and even cries for her only to get stuck in the whole no matter what you do you willl always be a loser cliche. Also matt only does few helpful things to sora and sora will fall in love meanwhile tai does everthing only to get friendzoned. Finally you have matt being a pretty boy in season 2 swooning all the girls and having shy fangirl named sora he evens fall into the whole perfect guy that every girl dreams cliche i mean he went from an rockstar to an astronaut.

 

I don't know if you watched digimon but did you even thought that mattxsora is still a cliche pairing and you did not jump into the popular bandwagon that its not a cliche? whats your opinion?

 

 

 

 

These two comments are truth. I think people only call something cliche is when it's done poorly. What is most irksome is when the characters so obviously like each other but then the author writes against it to simply avoid being cliche (usually writing into or using another cliche). 

 

 

What you just reminded me of digimon the only difference is tai had an obivious thing for sora but sora did not  .  However it is true that the director in this case wanted to avoid the main guy main girl cliche ,but by doing so he ran to another well known cliche. I guess people who hate overrated cliches tend to believe that other cliches aren't cliches therefore they ran into it without knowing it.

 

I can't really think of a pairing that isn't a cliché in some way, because they've all been "done" and certain genres are more well known to follow certain clichés, like shounen seems pretty notorious for pairing tsunderes with the main hero.

 

As others have mentioned, it's all in how the cliché is handled. NaruSaku is cliché and I can't and wouldn't argue with anyone who says it is, but it is incorrect to say that it's a bad pairing because it's cliché. Poorly written and cliché do not go hand in hand. (While I don't think NaruSaku has been handled as well as it could have, my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with the pairing being unoriginal.)

 

Originality isn't was important and just because something's original or breaks the mold, doesn't necessarily mean it will be good or well-written. It's all in the execution and if the writer knows how to handle a clichéd pairing then they'll be able to make something that feels fresh and engaging to the reader. 

 

I agree it is wrong to say that if they say that said pair is a cliche therefore it is bad. some people make it sound that its the worse thing ever then they say they prefer other pairs without knowing that can be cliche to. 

Edited by rikakim94, 04 November 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Jenskott]

 

Its refreshing to hear you say that soraxmatt is a cliche ive gotten tried of hearing thats it refreashing/unique just because it avoid popular main guy main girl pair and it rarely get canonized  DOES NOT MEAN ALL CLICHE IS AVOIDED. Unfortunately even the director seems to fall for that excuse and thats pretty much reason why he did pair tai and sora together. Whats ironic is that sorato already is cliche pairing from the start you have the pretty boy/cool who happens to have a sad sympathetic back story that he told to sora. Then sora sympathies it and begins to fall for that image isn't that the obivious nice girl heals the bad boy cliche in this case its the cool guy cliche? While thats happening tai does everything for sora even till the point he saves her numerous times and even cries for her only to get stuck in the whole no matter what you do you willl always be a loser cliche. Also matt only does few helpful things to sora and sora will fall in love meanwhile tai does everthing only to get friendzoned. Finally you have matt being a pretty boy in season 2 swooning all the girls and having shy fangirl named sora he evens fall into the whole perfect guy that every girl dreams cliche i mean he went from an rockstar to an astronaut.

 

I don't know if you watched digimon but did you even thought that mattxsora is still a cliche pairing and you did not jump into the popular bandwagon that its not a cliche? whats your opinion?

 

I watched some episodes but unfortunately I can not tell what I followed him regularly. Maybe if it had been aired when I was a kid I would have gotten into it.

 

But from what I saw, MattxSora was just so cliché like TaixSora. Nice, empathetic girl falls for the audience-is-supposed-to-find-him-cool pretty boy with a troubled past? Oh, wow, I have never seen THAT before.

 

Have you noticed my avatar? It is from Gatchaman/Battle of the Planets/G-Force/Eagleriders, a super-hero anime. In that series there was a love triangle between Mark (the main character), Princess and Jason. Princess was a nice, empathetic girl and Jason was a pretty boy with a troubled past. This anime was created in 1971 and that cliche is way, WAY older (although let's think of it, Gatchaman introduced a ton of cliches and tropes in anime -such like the five members team- so maybe it popularized this concrete cliche).

 

(Agreed, Princess chose Mark at the end of the third series. However Mark suffered a ton during the story and his new traumas stacked up with his childhood traumas and he became just like Jason personality-wise, so that Princess fell for the cool, pretty boy with a dark, troubled past anyway).

 

Back on topic, the next time that someone tells you that MattxSora is better than TaixSora because it is "refreshing and unique" you can retort that cliché was already old and overused in the seventies.

 

Anyway this conversation reminds me of Pokemon. I was- I am a AshxMisty shipper. I stopped watching Pokemon during the first episodes of the first Johto season, and Pokemon Silver was the last Pokemon game that I played intensely. I lost interest on the franchise afterwards. Years later I found out that Misty had been dropped and Ash was traveling with May -another girl-, and May had been replaced with Dawn in turn.

 

My first reaction was "All of those AshxMisty teases were for NOTHING?". My second reaction was... no reaction. I cared caring for I realized that Ash would never hook up with anybody. The anime-makers would replace every female partner right like they were always replacing his Pokemon but Pikachu. So I am still a AshxMist fan because I see no reason to change.

[Phantom_999]

AshXSerena is looking pretty good though

[Jenskott]

I do not watch Pokemon and I have not watched it in... over ten years, so I would not know. Anyway I do not care for it.

 

By the way, do you remember how some people tells that main guy x main girl is boring because it is very trite? After this week I declare more loudly than ever before than I will take something trite and "boring" but logical and born of natural plot progression to contrived, sudden asspulls.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah, it's not that Main guy getting with Main girl is cliche' It's whether or not they have developments together and let's be real here. The main guy/man and main girl/woman get the most focus so they are easier to develop. And not only that, but whether or not their relationship has a resolution. If they find that they are not meant for each other, that'd be easier to swallow for one.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 November 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Pix]

A cliche pairing to me is when two opposite characters attract. So good girl likes bad boy. Loud one likes quiet one. Things like that. 

 

But also a cliche pairing can exist because of the characters themselves. So if the feminine one of the pairing is "princess-like", calm, and morally right all of the time, that said person can automatically create a cliche pairing. Same goes for the guy portraying "prince-like" masculine traits. 

 

But I don't think a cliche pairing is a couple obviously getting together. They can be the only couple in a series yet be the weirdest bunch out of the group.

[Geninja]

AshXSerena is looking pretty good though

 

I'm sorry but Pokemon is not even considered an anime. It's basically a marketing tool solely used to promote the games. It used to be an anime but those days are long gone. 

 

Ash is never gonna get with anybody, that's just the way this show works.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah I know, but the pairing catches my fancy cause Serena straight up has a crush on Ash. No ambiguity, no questioning. She officially likes him. Has nothing to do with becoming canon cause I know it ain't happening, Its just who looks cute together BECAUSE there will be no relationships.

 

Not denying that the series not the video games is just an advertising tool to promote the video games series though, cause the the formula and story is just SAD now. but remember though We're not the targeted audience. if you call it kiddy and pointless, remember it is aimed at kids. If you say that you don't like any of your childhood shows anymore, that just means you're no longer a child.

Edited by Phantom_999, 11 November 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

To me, pretty much any romance portrayal could be said to be cliche. I mean it's all be done before, that's why something like trope assignment exists. I tend to like pairings that are more opposites attracting, or at least the two characters come together to create a better whole. That's definitely done a lot...yet that's what I like to see XD;

 

I guess the type of pairing I don't like would be...just fangirling the bad boy or fanboying the moe girl. I dunno. There'd have to be more to it than that XD??

[rikakim94]

 

I watched some episodes but unfortunately I can not tell what I followed him regularly. Maybe if it had been aired when I was a kid I would have gotten into it.

 

But from what I saw, MattxSora was just so cliché like TaixSora. Nice, empathetic girl falls for the audience-is-supposed-to-find-him-cool pretty boy with a troubled past? Oh, wow, I have never seen THAT before.

 

Have you noticed my avatar? It is from Gatchaman/Battle of the Planets/G-Force/Eagleriders, a super-hero anime. In that series there was a love triangle between Mark (the main character), Princess and Jason. Princess was a nice, empathetic girl and Jason was a pretty boy with a troubled past. This anime was created in 1971 and that cliche is way, WAY older (although let's think of it, Gatchaman introduced a ton of cliches and tropes in anime -such like the five members team- so maybe it popularized this concrete cliche).

 

(Agreed, Princess chose Mark at the end of the third series. However Mark suffered a ton during the story and his new traumas stacked up with his childhood traumas and he became just like Jason personality-wise, so that Princess fell for the cool, pretty boy with a dark, troubled past anyway).

 

Back on topic, the next time that someone tells you that MattxSora is better than TaixSora because it is "refreshing and unique" you can retort that cliché was already old and overused in the seventies.

 

Anyway this conversation reminds me of Pokemon. I was- I am a AshxMisty shipper. I stopped watching Pokemon during the first episodes of the first Johto season, and Pokemon Silver was the last Pokemon game that I played intensely. I lost interest on the franchise afterwards. Years later I found out that Misty had been dropped and Ash was traveling with May -another girl-, and May had been replaced with Dawn in turn.

 

My first reaction was "All of those AshxMisty teases were for NOTHING?". My second reaction was... no reaction. I cared caring for I realized that Ash would never hook up with anybody. The anime-makers would replace every female partner right like they were always replacing his Pokemon but Pikachu. So I am still a AshxMist fan because I see no reason to change.

You know whats really disappointing/ironic is the fact that the guy who directed digimon did not want to pair tai/sora because its "too cliche" and yet he had an empathetic girl fall for the cool who happens to have bad past. yeah sooooooo original  . It even upsets me more that he failed to develop the pair with any chemistry and made it into a more obivious cliche in the second season. and he failed to tell his production crew beforehand that he intended this pair hence the reason why we had a tai/sora movie and some moments in the season 1.

 

As for the whole empathetic girl falls for the cool guy is there any other examples i can use? I want a lot so i can prove to the people who say that matt/sora type of pairs is not a cliche is in fact not true at all.

 

I never knew that cliche goes way back to the 70's.

Edited by rikakim94, 15 November 2014 - 04:29 AM.

[lupina]

Main guy and main girl. Bad boy and good girl. Cliches are everywhere. If it's done well I'll like it, if not then...

 

So much YES.

If a pairing is well written, idc if it's considered as "clichee" from some ppl or not ... 

[Phantom_999]

Yeah it all comes down to if it's well written. It matters not if it's cliche cause EVERYTHING has been done at this point. It's whether or not it's believable and not an A**pull.

[nikki1314]

I really like KiritoXAsuna.

 

No Asspulls, Direct to the point, They support each other from beggining to the end.

 

It's kinda cliche for me, because thats how i like my relationships to be , in game, anime or in real life.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah and whatever developments that they had were there at least. just didn't happen on screen since they skip through time alot between episodes; months really.

[Tiller]

 

 

In both universes, before this kitten with NH started anyways, it's been shown that Naruto has a thing for smaller slender girls, and thinking of big breast really doesn't do much for him.