Shadow Wolf

Okay, everyone, we have another new page.
 

Throw the canon content away and inject this into my veins. XD

Sure, it does feel a little out of character considering how cold Sasuke is/was, but he was also the bridge towards NS during the post-chunnin exams arc, in where he gave the credit to Naruto for saving Sakura. So I can accept this version of Sasuke better than what anything the canon has to offer at present time.

Okay, NaruSaku fans here we go with yet another new page.
 

This gave me some strong Yamato/Sakura vibes. I recall Yamato saying something very similar to what Sasuke just said here.

Hi there. I don't know much about you, but it is still cool to see fellow members around. Welcome back and enjoy your time here and in everything else you do in the day. :)

You know, since this is an NS debate thread, why not start with something leaning a bit more towards NS like:

1-How would the Narutoverse be if NS becomes canon (meaning past chapter 698 or past Pain Arc or past whichever point you choose)? With Boruto there is a tech world of sorts, but how would you see the Villages and Konoha if NS was canon (like, what would the other characters do and what would be the goal after the point of the story you chose continues)?

2-How would you expect their relationship to unfold and what stories would you add to further develop them individually and as a couple?

3-What problems do you think NS would go through on their relationship? How would they overcome them?

4-Would you like to see other pairings? If so, how would they support NS?

5-How would you develop closing of the Naruto story around NS?

This is some great work done here. Keep it up! :)

As for my thoughts. Just like there is an alternate universe in RtN, I believe Menma is from an alternate universe where Naruto and Sakura were married. Now, if he is on his own, it may mean that he accidentally got transported into the actual universe and/or he had the same fate as Naruto (in where his parents sacrificed himself for him somehow). In any case, the answer will be revealed as the story progresses so I'll wait patiently for it, hehehe.

Also didn't the Sakura equivalent get with the Naruto equivalent? It's been awhile. Seems like the Sasuke equivalent didn't care about her like Sasuke didn't care about Sakura.

Well, advising that I will mention Spoilers of the manga...





....Spoilers ahead (sorry, don't know how to use spoiler tags from the phone)....










Although they do not end up together, she does write letters to him at the end and although at one point he paraphrased "Haruko, I love Basketball", making it sound somewhat like a confession, Haruko did blush at this, so it can be safely assumed that they both have feelings for each other. Also, at one point Haruko realized that she had to get over Rukawa since he was only focused on playing basketball and had no interest in romance. So yeah, very similar in many aspects but in Slam Dunk it was handled better.

Here a question for everyone; what is the bases for Naruto and Sasuke rivalry, and friendship?

At first they were kinda similar to Hanamichi Sakuragi and Kaede Rukawa from Slam Dunk: Dumb vs Smart, Unpopular vs Popular, both hot-headed heroes interested in the girl who would only stare at the cold guy (though Naruto eventually developed genuine feelings for Sakura, and Hanamichi for Haruko Akagi) and of course, the cold guy would not care at first until the hot-headed bothered enough.

Then a bit of acknowledgement came as they could see that they could both push each other further to grow stronger, thus making them both work hard so that they would not fall behind.

But eventually, in Naruto everything kinda got thrown off due to other dramatic plots and whatnot. If you ask me, if you want to see how in my opinion Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry should have developed (and even part of Sakura's development too), just read the Slam Dunk manga.

EDIT: changed the name of the female lead of Slam Dunk. Don't know why I confused it XD

Yep, I noticed that too, but since the end of pein invassion Hinata became a complete selfish void of a person, didn't care about Neji's death (If she actually did she should had been cryiing broken instead of getting sweet hand to hand action with her crush), then we have the movie that took her selfishiness on a whole new level where she basically makes the main character discard his dead mother's memento(regardless if Naruto did it of his own will, the fact that she wanted to him to wear HER stupid scarf created the problem). 
Seriously, If I were Kushina and I noticed what he had done, I wouldn't even bother to beat his ass senseless, I would just say to him "If this is what you value, I don't want nothing to do with you, leave now, I don't ever want to see you or call you son again" . Ultimate Scumbag, indeed, discarding his mother's memento, GIVE ME A F@$!#$# BREAK.
 
 
Yeah, yeah you say this all the time.

When you think about it, this is basically Naruto going against what his mom advised him to "find someone like her", which kinda reinforces the idea of having to destroy everything else in order to make NH canon.

And if you were to ask me, I would not have minded NH to be canon, as long as you would have developed Hinata to become a better character (I mean, eliminating the Branch system in memory of Neji would have been a nice ending for her, if you ask me. She wouldn't even have to be the leader of her clan, but be an influential person for her clan would have been great). Toss in more interactions between Naruto and Hinata throughout the manga and it would have worked fine. But none of this happened, and with the portrayal of the next generation, to me it makes matters worse because we don't really see the chemistry between the canon couples.

 
Sasuke knew Kakashi had Sakura. Saying Sasuke let Sakura nearly die isn't accurate, and as cold as his point is, he is right in ensuring Naruto is safe.
 
On the rest, I would argue it is a point of view on what strength is. I do not agree that enduring Sasuke's dark treatment is weakness, I would call her endurance a strength and sympathetic point. It also isn't my point, as I was specifically addressing Sakura catching up to her team-mates, which is something done with Sasuke around. 
 
Plus Sasuke treated Naruto similarly, and others, so I find it unfair to hyperfocus and then conclude Sakura is weak for enduring. I instead believe the very concept of enduring is strength, -especially- since Sasuke did indeed see the light at the end.
 
Essentially, all of this makes Sakura not weak, but compassionate. Compassion is NOT weakness, nor love, thus my irritant to the descriptor. Toughness should not be regarded more of a strength than soft compassion. 
 
 
Some Fact Checks before I get to the point addressed to myself:
 
Anyone who is saying that Naruto and Sakura "Gave up on themselves" is wrong. No ifs, buts. You're wrong.
Anyone who is implying Naruto is unhappy is wrong. No ifs, buts. You're wrong. You're making stuff up.
If you're saying Naruto doesn't smile around his family, you're also wrong. No ifs, buts. You're wrong. Making stuff up. Cherry Picking perhaps. 
Anyone claiming Kishimoto is trying to send secret messages, or a fluke, is speaking without evidence.
 
Your interpretation of Hinata also is really, really off tainted by preconceived bias. You've never really portrayed her fairly, and I don't think you ever will be capable of it.
 
And some plain subjectivity on my part: 
 
I flat out disagree that Anyone needs to be put in their place. I actually highly dislike fanon NS portrayals that work this way when its employed in a serious fashion. 
I also flat out continue to disagree with your thoughts on the fandom, or that there is "subservience". You're creating an interpretation of characters that lacks evidence or support.
 
Now to address your part, there are way more people here, on these forums, implying or thinking poorly of Sakura for her choice. Of course there are some in other places, Sakura and Sasuke for that matter have always been divisive characters. 
 
No, the creators haven't reduced the series to shipping bait, or the fans. That's all you -see-. You're glossing over everything else, and it's really not hard to see it. Of course shippers celebrate their pairings, and they talk about the current ongoings in the manga, or anime. 
 
Perhaps ask why they praise the series? Because very few would say their pairing alone, or even as a major reason.
 
I've done my research, a ton of it. No, I will never see the fandom as you see it, because I lack the hatred you have, and never want it, honestly. I'm honestly more hopeful you can let go of it sometime and see the series in more of a fair light, rather than spewing vile at it that's quite untrue most of the time.
 
My primary argument to your posts is summed up with: Evidence? And you have yet, and cannot, provide it, for your primary claim of "Secret messages of the characters not being true and against Kishimoto's wishes". 

Wow, you and Kishi have a lot un common you know... And that's not me praising you.

The evidence that you so much want is in the manga itself. You have been presented with missing plot points (bench scene), character behaviors (puppy eyes to try and get a kiss), comparisons to human nature (You would NOT love someone who tries to MURDER you, period), inconsistencies in Kishi's interviews (I planned NH from the middle... I planned it from the beginning), and yet you still try to say that we are wrong. Really, it makes me wonder if you are just Kishi's new editor (after the one who helped him until the Pain Arc left), which I'm pretty sure would behave just like you. But you know what, it doesn't matter, since you have tried so hard to deny the facts that no one can take you seriously anymore. I commend you for being persistent, but that's basically the only thing I can consider to be a virtue about you. Well, keep trying sister Analyzer.

Moving on...


Something Sakura should have asked... Very simple... Was the person who praised her forehead, and basically have her the confidence from the very start of the series truly Sasuke?

Who was encouraging her vs who was causing her pain?

Who was putting his needs aside for her vs who puts his needs first before her?

Who trusted her abilities vs who considered her weak?

Who protected her vs who harmed her? (And you can bring the Tenchi Bridge Arc here but what happened right after? Naruto got called out by Yamato)

And keep doing the comparisons... The difference becomes very obvious.

Well, to be fair and to give the guy credit...he did fight his brother Sasuke while being mostly blind while being extremely sick to the point that he should have been dead, but through sheer will power stayed alive long enough.

Sasuke didn't even beat Itachi. Itachi dropped dead.

I know this doesn't say much, but considering that Itachi basically had every handicap against him and Sasuke still couldn't match him either proves how good Itachi was or how bad Sasuke is.

It's like how Goku couldn't beat Cell. I know people want to think GOku is all powerful and all, but we many fans forget that Goku couldn't beat Cell and had trouble fighting Buu and needed tons of help with that one. Even now in the tournament he is getting his ass handed to him by Universe 6s Saiyans.
 
By the way, I saw this in my travels


By the way, Spoiler....Ichigo lost to Naruto in Death Battle.

All I can say about this DB is that Broomstick called in two facts:

1-Burrito

2-Sasuke being Naruto's closet boyfriend, hahahahahahahaha

 
Man, I knew the vitriole for Hinata was HIGH after her hijacking the ending and the heroine role, but even I don't want to kill her off. It's not that I hate Hinata, I just hate how her potential got wasted just because fans couldn't see her flaws.

Flaws? What flaws? She's so innocent and so pure and so brave and she was always trying to improve herself and she followed Naruto's nindo and she is such a good wife and... She has these big... OO... Eyes...


Anyway, I think that is what makes this ending even worse. Basically, take all the character's flaws (fangirling, obsession, doing everything for yourself instead of relying on teamwork, becoming strong because you were given powers and not because of protecting ideals and people, etc.), Crank them up to 11, and portray them as "the happy ending". Is not even about pairings, but about giving the characters a proper ending. Want to see an ending that I feel kinda delivers this: go watch Slam Dunk (manga) and let me know.

 
I know, right? That entire scene is just BEYOND out of character for everybody. Here Sasuke nearly killed Sakura and Naruto more or less blows it off as not being a big deal. Because he UNDERSTANDS why Sasuke is doing what he's doing. He UNDERSTANDS it all, so it's okay. No anger. Nothing. All we get is one line of dialogue from Naruto that is the equivalent to a parent telling their child to 'cut it out' after seeing said child play with the light switch for a few seconds. What? The real Naruto would've at BARE MINIMUM haymakered the dude through a brick wall before giving him a tongue lashing. It makes you wonder how Naruto would've reacted had he actually killed her.
 
Then the whole "We'll die together" BS. Truly the most aggravating moment in the entire series for me. Even worse than Sakura's character derailment meltdown in 693. This is the guy who never gives up. Who promised he'd bring Sasuke back no matter what. Whose nindo is keeping his word. For the real Naruto, the thought of dying would never even have crossed his mind. And he wouldn't give a damn what some hocus pocus rasengan/chidori clash induced acid trip told him. He's bringing Sasuke back even if it means dragging his ass back and that's final. This is the dude who is not supposed to give a rat's ass about fate (until the author ruined that too anyway). Just as bad is Sakura's reaction as Naruto spouts all of this unhinged horsesh-t. She has no problems with it whatsoever. Instead, she's in awe about it. Her best friend is spouting incoherent bullsh-t about dying alongside the man she claims to love and THIS is her reaction?
 

 
 

Hence why the comments "Sakura is so useless" pops up. It was thanks to all the actions that happened post-Pain-Arc which Anti-Sakura people use as their evidence.

Plus what you mentioned earlier reminded me exactly what happened in Gaara's Arc. He was dragging himself with his chin in order to beat some sense into Gaara. What happened next? Well, we saw Gaara's change. So it is quite bad to see Naruto be that obsessed with Sasuke.

And say what needs to be said about Itachi, but I did like his talk with Naruto about probably having to kill Sasuke if it means protecting Konoha. I feel like that observation would have delivered a more powerful story and ending that what we got.

And of course, Sakura's words at the end of Part 1 (we'll do this together) went... Pretty much nowhere with this scene.

If you think this, then you have no idea. I've seen plenty of things like this in my line of work.
 

This part right here caught my attention. If your line of work is somewhat similar to what I have studied, then I agree to a point.

Usually, women who stick to these kind of relationships have some sort of self-esteem issues (maybe they have just gotten used to the routine or they fear being alone if they leave the relationship), or they have not develop enough confidence to stand up and either stop the line of neglecting and actually ask for what they feel they deserve.

And when we see that these type of relationships are not healthy, we do get frustrated to see Sakura like this. Heck, even Naruto's relationship is not a healthy one. Is this the happy ending that was apparently planned? Then why showcase it as an unhappy one, with not one, but two unstable relationships. Maybe it is for the sake of pushing the drama and the story, but quite honestly, it is not doing much progress.

And when we see that both Naruto and Sakura were stronger in terms of determination all the way to the Pain Arc, hence why in the end many of us are disappointed: because we expected that both Naruto and Sakura, after all they endured, would be strong enough to get into a healthy relationship. Not a perfect one, but a healthy one. And which two people were strong enough and spend enough time together to get into this type of relationship?

Anyway, trying to get back into topic: if we're talking about Naruto before the Pain Arc, I don't think he would hesitate to take down Sasuke. After all, he would choose to protect Konoha first. After that, he saw what Chiyo could do, so I believe he would find a way to bring her back to life if Sasuke didn't do much to her body. Post-Pain Arc Naruto would still try to save him despite whatever he does. After all, chapter 693 proved that when he basically didn't react after Sasuke put Sakura out cold.

But Sarada is her child...

Yeah, and I have a bridge to sell XD

Anyway, here's another topic to talk about: How would you personally resolve the bench scene? Many of us have different scenarios, so let's see how similar or different can they be.

 

That was... So lame... And the first date at Ichiraku, really? Sakura would probably do the same as Naru from Love Hina and made Naruto take her to a good place instead. The second date would be OK at Ichiraku, though.