190 replies to this topic

[rocci]

I disagree.

[db84x]

@ Niky

Every body have their own type, it very rude force our own preference into other.

 

@ NeonRanger

Agree, tsundere hatred is real.  But it not only because culture, it happen due in 80-90 all female protagonist dominate by tsundere.  Thats why originally Sakura not portray as tsundere until SP step in.

Edited by db84x, 29 January 2016 - 05:02 AM.

[rocci]

I never see Hinata as bafumei or Yamato nadeshiko nor did kishi ever make her into one.
She's a shrinking violet who become popular since the heroine getting hate and people like her more.

That kind of type always exist in the manga/anime, but for some reason they rarely become heroine.

People dislike tsundere because their violence or indecisiveness.
But they're popular in shonen or even seinen because of that.

[db84x]

@ Rocci
more precisely tsunder popular in 80 - 90, until anime manga fans sick with it.

Edited by db84x, 29 January 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[rocci]

No, they don't.

Tsundere still doing good.

[db84x]

As example is Sakura, masive hatred which she got just because she was injected with heavy tsundere trait by SP. And all of us knew what happen when Kishi fix her in the Last. All naruto fandom (except NS of course) now say she is a good character.

[rocci]

@db
Sakura is dislikeable because that's how kishi design her and kishi never give her compensation to balance her dislikeable side not did he develop her into one.
Tsundere play a part but not that big. Sakura hate come from kishi disability to write character and his carelessness.


Kishi doesn't fix her in the last, fandom just doesn't give a kitten about her character and shipper doesn't feel threaten on her character anymore.


Oh and if a tsundere character love naruto, she will get love more than Hinata by fan. But sp will still love Hinata.

[TouKen4Life3g]

There's much more to hate Sakura than your daily tsundere. Rocci made that clear.

[db84x]

Really honestly most of first reason we became NH or SS just because we bore with tsundere heroine. Sakura in manga is moderate tsundere while Sakura in anime is pure tsundere.

 

Later we speak about our boredom, we got carpet bombed by fanatic.  Thats when ship became personal battle and boredom solidified change into hatred.

 

Without fanatic act in past maybe NS have better chance.  

Edited by db84x, 29 January 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Naruto is very mainstream with worldwide audience, so it's louder to hear the dislike with tsundere.

[db84x]

I don't agree with dislike, it all start from boredom.  Later fanatic act, Kishi agenda (his original concept), Japan culture and etc enter the fray.   

[TouKen4Life3g]

Japan seems to disagree with other series. Reality is that USA saw Naruto another DBZ, a gateway to anime and Sakura is just an overall bad character.

[rocci]

@dk
Just because you bored with the concept of tsundere doesn't mean the other do the same.
Tsundere is just archetype character like shy girl, genki girl, aloof girl, yandere, ect.

Fanatic exist in everywhere and everything.

[hinataiscreepy]

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. I didn't notice before, but since the ending (the hate of a self-reliant type like Sakura and the worship of a weak, submissive girl like Hinata) I've seen the stereotype more and more in Japanese culture/media/manga/anime. I originally thought that the switch of Hinata to heroine of Sakura was just for cash, but now I think it's deeper.

 

And you're right about Kishimoto having traditional Japanese ideals, meaning conservative towards women. I don't think he was like that at the beginning of the manga — Look at Naruto in the pilot! He's about as far from conservative as you can get! — but Kishi's grown that way of the course of the series. And sexism in Japan in a serious thing: Women who dare to return back to work after having a child are called 'devil wives'!!! Crazy! And combine that with social attitudes towards dating now (the Japanese youth are shunning it), taking the traditional salary-man jobs and working 70 hours a week (again, Japanese youth are shunning it), and the future numbers that show a decrease in population from lack of procreating couples...you can see how there's a social tug-of-war between the old ways and the new.

 

I just wonder if it was an issue Kishimoto didn't care about back in 1999 when he was in his early 20s and creating the manga, versus now, in his early 40s, with kids of his own, at the end of the manga. Because the end pairing doesn't fit the beginning. 

 

And it's not a hard leap to make that the marketing teams would be happy pitching a docile, easy-on-the-eyes heroine such as Hinata over one like Sakura, who doesn't have a real-life counterpart in current Japanese culture. 

 

Also, that's not to say there aren't modern girls/women who like Sakura and NS in Japan. Just that they clearly weren't allowed in the room when the decision to switch heroines was being made. If there are even any women in positions of authority in that industry at all!

 

I agree, the combination of the hardcore shipping of NH from the West, the prevalence of a feminine beauty ideal and the conservative views of women's behavior and roles in society were just too much to fight against. And who pays for it in the end? Sakura who winds up a single parent, doomed to clean Sasuke's house for the rest of her days!! Because to go to work now would make her one of those 'devil wives' in Japanese culture.

 

Hinata looks plump and happy in her role, but Sakura's homemaker role rings hollow. It's not a happy ending. It's uncomfortable. I think Kishimoto unwittingly made a statement about the problem of gender equality and stereotypes in Japanese society right now. 

 

Its funny because I remember seeing in "you only live twice" a scene where one of the locals say that women always have to walk two steps behind their men. The sad thing is that young boys were likely raised that way in that era.

 

There is one character in One Piece that represents this issue its Tashigi. She is the traditional Japanese women who wants to rebel against the way women are seen in Japan and doesn't want to be considered a second class citizen. One of the samurais of the Wano kingdom (Japan) literally says to Nami that women always walk behind their men in his island. Its a clear reference to the old japan and its gender issues. 

 

What I am saying is that "Will Oda be able to defy and set up a new trend with Tashigi's character ?

Will he fail in the same way as Kishimoto ? Will Zoro's words' of encouragement to Kuina to defy gender norms be thrown out the toilet ?

 

I am worried because Tashigi's character is not very popular because she doesn't fit the ideal image of a woman. I am very excited and extremely scared of the Wano arc because I fear that the editors and executives will change that to glorify the manliness of Samurais.

Edited by hinataiscreepy, 29 January 2016 - 05:05 PM.

[Swagkura]

Please, I don't even see the tsundere thing as a valid reason for Sakura to get hated on. There's always been a double standard in Naruto with Sakura, where she'll get hate over the most dumbest sh**t while characters who do the same exact thing or something similar get praised for it. It's wack as hell at this point, but what can you do

[Bail o' Lies]

Please, I don't even see the tsundere thing as a valid reason for Sakura to get hated on. There's always been a double standard in Naruto with Sakura, where she'll get hate over the most dumbest sh**t while characters who do the same exact thing or something similar get praised for it. It's wack as hell at this point, but what can you do

The reason she is hated in the west is simple...the casual western fans got to watch it on TV.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 30 January 2016 - 03:46 AM.

[db84x]

@ Rocci

Boredom isn't hatred, based my experience hatred stem when pairing war became personal.  Even until now fanatic never learn.

 

@ Bail o' Lies

This time I agree with you, Sakura from manga is okay but Sakura from anime is worse.

Edited by db84x, 30 January 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

......even if saving you sends me to heaven,

[db84x]

Sorry if made you angry, I just explain why non canon couple who cuter than canon couple lost.  Usually they won, as long as their fans play nice.

[rocci]

Sorry if made you angry, I just explain why non canon couple who cuter than canon couple lost.  Usually they won, as long as their fans play nice.

NS doesn't happen because we're outnumber.