190 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

So I just read an article about the popularity of 'Baifumei' as a look in China. Baifumei is basically pale, rich and beautiful, with girls looks focusing on pale skin, large eyes, rosebud lips and an oval face. Also described in the look are really thin bodies (with the exception, of course, of big boobs). 

 

So all of this reminded me forcefully of Hinata. Especially the makeover she got in "The Last," from an overly curvy, normal-sized girl in the manga to the waifish child-like girl in the movie. And in the manga epilogue, she noticeably stayed young and girlishly modest while everyone else got older and/or more overtly womanly.

 

I've also read recently about the cultural pressure in Japan toward more feminine, modest girls who only aspire to be future wives/moms (meaning Hinata, who embodies traditional Japan and its values as a clan princess) over active/modern types like Sakura portrays.

 

So I was wondering...was Hinata's move into the heroine slot and the backlash against Sakura a result of these cultural pressures? Did they make Hinata the love interest because she fits the role of the baifumei girl? 

 

And is Naruto now the "gao fu shuai" - literally translated to tall, rich, handsome — which is the ultimate counterpart to the baifumei girl?

 

And all of this got me wondering.... Was Kishimoto pandering to Chinese and Japanese audiences when he recast Hinata as a baifumei princess? How popular is Naruto in China? Would it be worth it? Would it be a monetary coup to make a movie that's a sappy ideal girl/ideal boy love story versus a movie/manga ending that paired the hero with an athletic modern girl who's relationship follows the Japanese tsundere trope?

 

There's been a lot of talk about NH being a favorite Western ship and that Kishimoto finally bowed to pressure from the NH fans. But what if was more culturally based that that? What if they were instead trying to target Chinese/Japanese girls through Hinata in "The Last," just as the manga had always been aimed at boys through Naruto? 

 

In a nutshell, Hinata's looks, though plain at the beginning of the manga, have been morphed into a known and named popular look among some Asian girls. However you'd be hard-pressed to find a real-life Sakura style to emulate, outside of her pink hair.

 

So - how big a role did this play in Hinata's makeover from forgettable side character to the byakugan princess? Did the marketing team take popular styles into account when remaking Hinata into the new female lead? Is Naruto popular enough in China that they tried make a girl character that represented the fashionable baifumei look, then rebuild Naruto as a romance instead of a bro-mance?

 

Thoughts?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

So I just read an article about the popularity of 'Baifumei' as a look in China. Baifumei is basically pale, rich and beautiful, with girls looks focusing on pale skin, large eyes, rosebud lips and an oval face. Also described in the look are really thin bodies (with the exception, of course, of big boobs). 

 

So all of this reminded me forcefully of Hinata. Especially the makeover she got in "The Last," from an overly curvy, normal-sized girl in the manga to the waifish child-like girl in the movie. And in the manga epilogue, she noticeably stayed young and girlishly modest while everyone else got older and/or more overtly womanly.

 

I've also read recently about the cultural pressure in Japan toward more feminine, modest girls who only aspire to be future wives/moms (meaning Hinata, who embodies traditional Japan and its values as a clan princess) over active/modern types like Sakura portrays.

 

So I was wondering...was Hinata's move into the heroine slot and the backlash against Sakura a result of these cultural pressures? Did they make Hinata the love interest because she fits the role of the baifumei girl? 

 

And is Naruto now the "gao fu shuai" - literally translated to tall, rich, handsome — which is the ultimate counterpart to the baifumei girl?

 

And all of this got me wondering.... Was Kishimoto pandering to Chinese and Japanese audiences when he recast Hinata as a baifumei princess? How popular is Naruto in China? Would it be worth it? Would it be a monetary coup to make a movie that's a sappy ideal girl/ideal boy love story versus a movie/manga ending that paired the hero with an athletic modern girl who's relationship follows the Japanese tsundere trope?

 

There's been a lot of talk about NH being a favorite Western ship and that Kishimoto finally bowed to pressure from the NH fans. But what if was more culturally based that that? What if they were instead trying to target Chinese/Japanese girls through Hinata in "The Last," just as the manga had always been aimed at boys through Naruto? 

 

In a nutshell, Hinata's looks, though plain at the beginning of the manga, have been morphed into a known and named popular look among some Asian girls. However you'd be hard-pressed to find a real-life Sakura style to emulate, outside of her pink hair.

 

So - how big a role did this play in Hinata's makeover from forgettable side character to the byakugan princess? Did the marketing team take popular styles into account when remaking Hinata into the new female lead? Is Naruto popular enough in China that they tried make a girl character that represented the fashionable baifumei look, then rebuild Naruto as a romance instead of a bro-mance?

 

Thoughts?

 

Tricksie, you may have a valid point... honestly, if that is the case, it'd be really, REALLY stupid to have done something like this so suddenly just because of a certain look. Besides, we also got this whole feeling it was Hinata's sudden rise in popularity that she ended up becoming the new love interest for Naruto, even if it still stinks to high heaven as can be.

 

If they wanted to do things right, they should have let Kishi's story remain untapped. And really, there's a picture from a community I have joined or are aware of on Facebook that just had been shown to nail how I feel the ending also was done;

 

https://www.facebook...?type=3

 

Basically, his editors, Studio Pierrot, and the rabid fans as well as this possibility of yours are the reasons why Naruto's ending has now turned the rest of the series into nothing but crap.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

You do have a point, but i recalled last year in the Great Discussion thread that someone posted an article about Sakura being hated in Japan all because SS happened and there a poll on the big three pairings. SS remained at no 1 while shockingly NS was no 2 in the rankings.This was well after the ending of Naruto. And it makes me wonder if NS is still popular in China?

[BlackBird19]

I'd have to say that yes, I've always felt that the decision makers imparted some of their traditional male views from their culture to help make the final decision on the main canon pairings. Sakura's utter devotion to Sasuke no matter what he does and Hinata's depiction as a quiet, timid and loyal housewife screams the traditional ideal wife.

 

Japan is one of those countries that holds on to it's cultural traditions as much as it can while being highly advanced industrially. A patriarchal society being one those traditions it clings to. However these old world views by men in Japan have played a large role in the Japanese becoming one of the oldest populations, age wise, in the world. Japanese women are no longer looking for relationships at young ages so as to be able to have careers or as a way to rebel against cultural pressures to be a certain way. 

 

So it wouldn't be a surprise to me that they would be all for depicting what they feel are traditional relationships between men and women in that somewhat feudal era world they created. Especially to a younger, more impressionable audience.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

 

Tricksie, you may have a valid point... honestly, if that is the case, it'd be really, REALLY stupid to have done something like this so suddenly just because of a certain look. Besides, we also got this whole feeling it was Hinata's sudden rise in popularity that she ended up becoming the new love interest for Naruto, even if it still stinks to high heaven as can be.

 

If they wanted to do things right, they should have let Kishi's story remain untapped. And really, there's a picture from a community I have joined or are aware of on Facebook that just had been shown to nail how I feel the ending also was done;

 

https://www.facebook...?type=3

 

Basically, his editors, Studio Pierrot, and the rabid fans as well as this possibility of yours are the reasons why Naruto's ending has now turned the rest of the series into nothing but crap.

 

Who is saying that in the article that is on that FB page? Is it one of the SP staff (because i see the SP stamp) or Kishi himself?

[Phantom_999]

So I just read an article about the popularity of 'Baifumei' as a look in China. Baifumei is basically pale, rich and beautiful, with girls looks focusing on pale skin, large eyes, rosebud lips and an oval face. Also described in the look are really thin bodies (with the exception, of course, of big boobs). 

 

So all of this reminded me forcefully of Hinata. Especially the makeover she got in "The Last," from an overly curvy, normal-sized girl in the manga to the waifish child-like girl in the movie. And in the manga epilogue, she noticeably stayed young and girlishly modest while everyone else got older and/or more overtly womanly.

 

I've also read recently about the cultural pressure in Japan toward more feminine, modest girls who only aspire to be future wives/moms (meaning Hinata, who embodies traditional Japan and its values as a clan princess) over active/modern types like Sakura portrays.

 

So I was wondering...was Hinata's move into the heroine slot and the backlash against Sakura a result of these cultural pressures? Did they make Hinata the love interest because she fits the role of the baifumei girl? 

 

And is Naruto now the "gao fu shuai" - literally translated to tall, rich, handsome — which is the ultimate counterpart to the baifumei girl?

 

And all of this got me wondering.... Was Kishimoto pandering to Chinese and Japanese audiences when he recast Hinata as a baifumei princess? How popular is Naruto in China? Would it be worth it? Would it be a monetary coup to make a movie that's a sappy ideal girl/ideal boy love story versus a movie/manga ending that paired the hero with an athletic modern girl who's relationship follows the Japanese tsundere trope?

 

There's been a lot of talk about NH being a favorite Western ship and that Kishimoto finally bowed to pressure from the NH fans. But what if was more culturally based that that? What if they were instead trying to target Chinese/Japanese girls through Hinata in "The Last," just as the manga had always been aimed at boys through Naruto? 

 

In a nutshell, Hinata's looks, though plain at the beginning of the manga, have been morphed into a known and named popular look among some Asian girls. However you'd be hard-pressed to find a real-life Sakura style to emulate, outside of her pink hair.

 

So - how big a role did this play in Hinata's makeover from forgettable side character to the byakugan princess? Did the marketing team take popular styles into account when remaking Hinata into the new female lead? Is Naruto popular enough in China that they tried make a girl character that represented the fashionable baifumei look, then rebuild Naruto as a romance instead of a bro-mance?

 

Thoughts?

 

Oh I have no doubt that played it's part Tricksie. I'd even say you found the gist of it  It may be due to the fact that Hinata represents ideal East Asian perception of beauty and that could be a huge factor on why she was bumped up to main heroine status. That said while all of this makes everything seem much more understandable, It doesn'treally change or disprove the argument that Kishi just took the easy way out and went straight for popularity. No matter how much it would ruin or change his story, no matter how much he would piss off fans of the series, he just went along with this ridiculous idea and, well here we are. Now I know that you're not defending Kishi's decision or anything, but I just want to say it anyway. Regardless of the reason or cultural differences, the fact of the matter is the romance between Naruto and Hinata makes no sense. There was no build up, no hints and definitely no reciprocation at all up til the end which is why it is so unsatisfying and pathetic. Besides, the appeal of "baifumei" didn't stop a lot of other manga/anime from hooking up the main lead with a tsundere did it? And why did they hook up with the tsundere? cause the story foreshadows it and there is always build up towards it. It is a really interesting find over all, don't get me wrong  I'm just stating that no matter what the reason or justification, Kishi ultimately betrayed his own writing and this is the result

Edited by Phantom_999, 28 January 2016 - 06:07 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

Who is saying that in the article that is on that FB page? Is it one of the SP staff (because i see the SP stamp) or Kishi himself?

 

I wish I knew Fox, but I don't. =/

[Yyubie]

@Tricksie

It still doesn't erase the bitter fact that Kishi didn't develop the cannon pairing and instead he keep developing the non cannon pairing. NH could be good if at least have some good development, why misleading the reader and keep developing the ship that will sink no matter what in the end more important than making the suppose to be cannon ship more elegant in the end?

Why the beloved princess "Baifumei" hit a small rock and trip and kiss the dirt while the hated and unpopular girl give kiss of life to the "Gao fu Shuai" ?

[Shadow1275]

Perhaps but what got him incredible popularity and fame in the first place? Interesting characters, storytelling, world building, and PROPER ROMANCE WRITING (Even if Sakura loving Sasuke makes zero sense at the point of her first confession). Up until LOI Naruto was always among the top 3, but everyone agrees that the war arc brought the series down to barely cracking the top ten. So what happens when you read the writing on the wall? Your main editor Yahagi has left Naruto, Your main plot point (Naruto gaining respect from the village) is finished and the Akatski are gone. What do you do? In Kishi's case he tried everything. Nostalgia with villains such as Zabuza, reusing the same formula with his villains, Sasuke for the fangirls, and it failed because Yahagi who was the ture master of storytelling was gone. So what do you do? You pander to the otaku, and the beta males, and the Sasuke fangirls and put your series in a position where it can be milked as much as possible.

 

But he forgot that shiptease and airings are pointless if they have no logic behind them. And honestly the fact that he chose to go with SS and NH when his series was most popular when Naruto was ignoring Hinata and Sasuke was rejecting Sakura shows he dngaf.

[db84x]

In Japan, Hinata current type character called Yamato Nadeshiko, it evolve from Shrinking Violet type character.

 

@ BlackBird19

I agree, especially when Kishi borrow heavily Japan culture for develop Naruto.  Intrusion Japan cultural value is unavoidable outcome.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I have no doubt that culture also played a role. It just so happens that a lot of western fans also prefer that type of woman for some reason - submissive, obedient, quiet, etc. while still (can very to person to person) good-looking.

Personally, whenever I think about it, I find that kind of woman to be boring and, if anything, thinking that seeking out such a woman to be with would make me look pathetic, like I was required to be with a woman who is perceived to be weaker than me in order to make myself look better to myself and others, almost like some abusive boyfriends/husbands can be, but without the actual abuse involved; feeling the need to never be questioned, the need to be in power and control, and so on, and obviously, you will have a far more difficult time (and/or not have the patience to) "break(ing) in" a woman who is willing to "fight back" so to speak.

[Moon_Girl]

In Japan, Hinata current type character called Yamato Nadeshiko, it evolve from Shrinking Violet type character.

 

@ BlackBird19

I agree, especially when Kishi borrow heavily Japan culture for develop Naruto.  Intrusion Japan cultural value is unavoidable outcome.

 

@Bolded

This. I was gonna post that, but you beat me to it.

 

She's basically everything people have said from the beginning. The fantasy of a pretty, thin, curvy, big boobed, shy, innocent, pure, pretty, (debatable. More like a soulless doll) submissive, underdog, girl that won't talk back and will devote her existence to the man she obsesses loves and will do anything and everything for him. No other purpose in life but to live for their crush/love/obsession/ect. 

 

Just like Sasuke/SS fangirls live out their fantasies through Sakura, Hinata/NH fanboys live their fantasies through Naruto.

The rest are pretty much "AW SAKURA IS SO DEVOTED TO SASUKE!! EVEN THOUGH HE'S JUST BLINDED BY THE DARKNESS. SHE DESERVES HIM. TRU LUV!!!1!1!!!" and "AW HINATA IS SO SHY AND CUTE SHE TRIES SO HARD FOR NARUTO SHE DESERVES HIM!! TRU LUV!!1!!11!"

 

Character development, relationship development, chemistry, canon, consistency, foreshadowing, good story telling and other character's feelings (Naruto and Sasuke's feelings never mattered to SS/NH as long as their girls got their boytoys) don't matter at all to them. Never has. Never will. Sprinkle on an author who can't think for himself, stand up for himself, easily influenced/mislead and to top it off, lies, and you get this rotten trash pile of an ending. 

 

Despite the Naruto ending, the fact that Kishimoto "listened" to the fan's whining really hacks me off. No author should ever have their story influenced by the fans. That's how you get a crappy story. An author shouldn't stray from their original idea and plans to please the fans. A good author sticks to his plans and stands firm in his story. He just haaaad to listen to all the Hinaturd wankers and go "o ok, if it makes me lots of muniez. obv this is wot ppl want. lol'

 

Hinata has pretty much ruined that archetype for me. The shy, shrinking violet with a crush. Now I just can't stand it anymore. Any character like that gets an auto dislike/hate.  I don't care about the character nor am I interested in them. Nor do I care if they develop. Any hint of the shy, moe girl with a crush is an instant turn off.

Edited by Moon_Girl, 28 January 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[db84x]

@ Moon_Girl

Naruto courting on kid and preteen, adult tend leave Naruto except they became shipper.  About plan, NH is Kishi plan since beginning but a lot of thing made it hold until Pain Arc (You know editor, Yuka etc).  Shuheisa give him way because it not obstruct fans favorite SS.

 

Current Naruto fandom will always consist on kid, preteen and shipper (NH, SS and affiliate only).  Kishi made it more specif by show his repressed inner shipper when he ask about it.

Edited by db84x, 28 January 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Yes, that cultural aspect has had an effect on the story. It the reason why SP and kishi's later staff was so obsessed with her. It the reason why they wanted her to have more of a role and why they wanted her to become the heroine of the story. As for it affecting the ending. It had a part but at the end of the day they care more about the belief that hinata was popular in the west, and would bring in the big bucks than trying to appease the eastern fans.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 28 January 2016 - 06:01 PM.

[Hanabi]

I'll have to say no because hinata's look has always been the stereotypical hime look, and imo hinata/sakura just fall into the common trope; red blue oni.

It's just that in this case Studio pierot admit shes their fave chara and manga-wise she's just a side chara which is lucky, coz she didn't have to be dragged through the mud as much as other prominent chara like sakura.

Sakura's fall and Hinata's rise to prominence is only because kishi didn't care about his characters. He only went with the flow, e.g. killing neji like no big deal coz people want death in the war arc / he found out hinata fans are loud in 2010 interview (in his own words)

Edited by Hanabi, 28 January 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[NeonRanger]

I really agree with Tricksie. But I'll go a bit further. The ending had to do a lot with Kishi's culture. You already read the interview about Sakura being a heroine. The Japanese hated her confession to Naruto. In Japan, unconditional love is looked at more highly.

 

That's why SNS/SS is popular in the Eastern pats rather than NS/NH. Naruto/ Sakura continued to love Sasuke even at his worst. In Japan once a girl confessed her love chapter (ch 181), the guy must respond first before she can move on. Which is why moving on to another person without knowledge of how the other feels is viewed negatively. 

 

For Hinata, she is still a popular character despite The Last reception. Like Tricksie mention, girls like Hinata are looked up by Japanese girls and are the Idealistic type for Japanese boys. Sakura was liked too, but SP characterized her badly. Manga alone Sakura is okay, but the anime emphasized it. Sakura is boisterous for typical Japanese, but her love for Team 7 & manga was what kept her relevant until SP started wanking Hinata. 

 

NS is also noticed in Japan, but it's smaller compared to SNS/ SS, but it is more noticeable internationally. Shockingly the west also perceives SS/SNS and NH as the better ship when according to western standards NS is better. 

 

Also db84x, is right, as of lately, and a couple years before, Sakura type characters are becoming more unpopular in Japan. And it's not popular in the West. 

 

Kishi is also a traditional Japanese man, which means he's conservative in a way. Sexism and traditional values also is still very common in Japan. If you saw Sarada's new outfit, unfortunately this is what is considered attractive for little girls. 

 

Kishi still gave in to popularity, but that's was due to the West. JP overall cares nothing about ships, so NS could have happened the very same. SP/ SJ saw the popularity NH had over the West, so canon. Kishi had no issues because of his beliefs and just agreed.

[NeonRanger]

You do have a point, but i recalled last year in the Great Discussion thread that someone posted an article about Sakura being hated in Japan all because SS happened and there a poll on the big three pairings. SS remained at no 1 while shockingly NS was no 2 in the rankings.This was well after the ending of Naruto. And it makes me wonder if NS is still popular in China?

 

It was a Chinese article. There was no poll about hated couples with SS in #1 and NS #2. There is a poll on which ship shouldn't be married/ together in JP. SS is #6 (206 people) and NH is #10 (132). But that doesn't help because of bias. I tried translating (Google, lol) the comments, majority who hated are SNS shippers and Yaoi shippers in general. There was also a ship war because Asuma x Krito was voted #1 as well as some ship in Detective Conan which was voted high in rankings, people were pissed off. 

 

NS is popular in China, it was ranked #19 in popular ships. NH was #39 but SS was ranked #12. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 28 January 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

The thing is the ending wasn't for SS it was for nH. Most of the people that worked on the anime in Japan figured that the story would end with certain pairing because of either NS or SS. Instead it was because of nH which more popular in the west.

[NeonRanger]

The thing is the ending wasn't for SS it was for nH. Most of the people that worked on the anime in Japan figured that the story would end with certain pairing because of either NS or SS. Instead it was because of nH which more popular in the west.

 

Pretty much. SasuSakuNaru is pretty much popular in Japan, but Kishi/SP/SJ were looking at the West because that's were Naruto makes a lot of profit. And NH is everywhere in the West (by that I mean a lot of cosplayers, fan art, rabid fan base). And they decided to kill two birds with one stone because SNS/SS also have a large base. 

 

NS was fine in JP, but smaller in the West compared to NH, and Naruto makes money in the West. They will obviously go with the one with more chance of profit. 

 

Still traditional values had a lot to do with the ending, but NH also had a major factor in establishing it. I don't know which would have been canon (NS/SS) if Hinata was never in the picture, but Hinata (her fans) pretty much established the ending we have now. 

[Bail o' Lies]

 

Pretty much. SasuSakuNaru is pretty much popular in Japan, but Kishi/SP/SJ were looking at the West because that's were Naruto makes a lot of profit. And NH is everywhere in the West (by that I mean a lot of cosplayers, fan art, rabid fan base). And they decided to kill two birds with one stone because SNS/SS also have a large base. 

 

NS was fine in JP, but smaller in the West compared to NH, and Naruto makes money in the West. They will obviously go with the one with more chance of profit. 

 

Still traditional values had a lot to do with the ending, but NH also had a major factor in establishing it. I don't know which would have been canon (NS/SS) if Hinata was never in the picture, but Hinata (her fans) pretty much established the ending we have now. 

And all the problems with it such as the decline in reputation and sales.