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My Final Realization Of What bothered Me About The Naruto Manga


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#41 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 11:18 PM

I thought of that and it wouldn't surprise me. If anything, he should've been a Hokage during war arc.

He even was Hokage temporarily after Danzo was ousted at the Summit (and then killed by Sasuke) until Tsunade had recovered from her coma.

 

not to mention he played favorites leaving 2 out of 3 in the dust

Coupled with the fact that Kakashi was still living in the past with the way he was completely (subconsciously or not) overlapping his old team with Team Seven when there was only extremely basic similarities between each member.

Naruto / Obito - the goofball dead last.
Sakura / Rin - the girl with the crush
Sasuke / Kakashi - the loner

...but beyond that, they were very different.

Unlike Naruto, Obito had a family and Clan to turn to. Sure, he was the dead last and probably looked down upon by a lot of other Uchiha Clan members, but he was still able to become a Chunin before ever awakening the Sharingan, had a sensei who paid equal attention to him as the rest of the team and believed in him, and, again, the fact that he had a family/Clan in existence as opposed to nobody is a huge difference in shaping how one grows up. Not to mention that Obito was just naturally the way he was whereas Naruto only pretended to be so happy, goofy, and mischievous, using it as a mask in order to gain any sort of acknowledgement that he could from the village.

Unlike Sakura, Rin did not let her crush on Kakashi completely rule over every aspect of her life. She knew to keep her personal crush separate from her duties as a kunoichi and took her career seriously, not intending to simply be a damsel to be rescued all the time by Kakashi. She also didn't treat Obito badly at all as far as we know and showed that she still deeply cared for him.

Unlike Kakashi, Sasuke was a loner because he purposely pushed everyone away because he believed everyone else would make him weaker by slowing him down whereas Kakashi simply turned people off because he became a complete stickler for the "rules" due to his father's suicide. Otherwise, Kakashi's loyalty to Konoha was beyond question, he didn't see everyone else as stepping stones in ascending to higher power, he didn't seek revenge on everyone he believed to be responsible for his father's suicide, and he, at least back then, changed for the better when he actually realized how wrong he was about things (through Obito's "death"), leading to the guy we are introduced to in the manga.


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#42 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 12:54 AM

Honestly, you could also blame the third for the team 7. When you look at the teams and I think Tsunade mentions this once when going over them. The third just pair similar teams together hoping they get results. It works in theory. Gai was give a team of martial artist and was allowed to train them by focusing on physical training. Lee was turned into a mini guy, Neji was a genius, and tenten was a weapon expert that the third praise her abilities. Team Asuma  is based on tradition of putting a Sarutobi in charge of their former vassals and creating the next generation of Ino-Shika-Cho. Team 8 was a tracking team with expert on genjutsu leading 3 people that had various tracking skills. Team 7 was a continuation of the first hokage line of teaching. The problem with team 7 is Kakashi.

 

Kakashi really is an apathetic man who is at best just following his old mentor's method and didn't adapt to his team. Look at how he trained Naruto (tree walking and wind manipulation) compared to Asuma and Jiraiya. Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the rasengan by basically giving physical demonstration, and letting Naruto figure it out. Asmua after Naruto got stuck on wind manipulation was able to help Naruto through a physical demonstration, and then explaining it afterwards . Kakashi does a long complex explanation, then realize Naruto isn't getting it so he tries a simpler explanation(or get Sakura or Asuma to explain it instead), then realize Naruto STILL doesn't get and Finally does the physical demonstration, and finishes of with another explanation. He taught Naruto three things during the story line Tree walking, Shadow clone's trick, and wind manipulation. And that what he more or less did for each one. That worked for Sakura and Sasuke but it clearly didn't work for Naruto until the physical demonstration. As for Sakura he is not in charge of her love life(which is both ironic and hypocritical seeing as that what he does by the end). But he didn't give her any direction for her to focus on. Sasuke he gave that kitten speech and then went on a mission instead of sending some to keep an eye on Sasuke.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 09 January 2016 - 04:18 PM.


#43 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 01:03 AM

Honestly you could also blame the third for the team 7. When you look at the teams and i think Tsunade mention this once when going over them. The third just pair similar team together hoping they get results. it works in theory. Gai was give a team of martial artist and was allowed to train them by focusing on physical training. Lee was turned into a mini guy, Neji was a genius, and tenten was a weapon expert that the third praise her abilities. Team asuma  is based on tradition of putting a Sarutobi in charge of their former vassals and creating the next generation of Ino-Shika-Cho. Team 8 was a tracking team with expert on genjutsu leading 3 people that had various tracking skills. team 7 was a continuation of the first hokage line of teaching. The problem with team 7 is kakashi.

 

Kakashi really is an apathetic man who is at best just following his old mentor's method and didn't adapt to his team. Look at how he trained Naruto (tree walking and wind manipulation) compared to Asuma and Jiraiya. Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the rasengan by basically giving physical demonstration, and letting Naruto figure it out. Asmua after Naruto got stuck on wind manipulation was able to help Naruto through a physical demonstration, and then explaining it afterwards . Kakashi does a long complex explanation, then realize Naruto isn't getting it so he tries a simpler explanation(or get sakura or Asmua to explain it instead), then realize Naruto STILL doesn't get and Finally does the physical demonstration, and finishes of with another explanation. He taught Naruto three thing during the story line Tree walking, Shadow clone's trick, and wind manipulation. And that what he more or less did for each one. That worked for Sakura and Sasuke but it clearly didn't work for Naruto until the physical demonstration. As for Sakura he is not in charge of her love life(which is bother ironic and hypocritical seeing as that what he does by the end). But he didn't give her any direction for her to focus on. Sasuke he gave that kitten speech and then went on a mission instead of sending some to keep an eye on Sasuke.

Funny that you mentioned about TenTen, because it reminds me that Kishi is no show, but tell. It's never the former nor both, especially for women. Tsunade couldn't back up her claim and got beaten twice or thrice, Sakura showed but felt useless again, and TenTen....exists.



#44 Phantom_999

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:27 AM

Do you agree that Naruto destiny is to be the child of prophecy ??

If i remember correctly the child of prophecy is :

1. The one who will bring peace to the ninja world

2. Reincarnation / descendant of legendary shinobi Ashura (or Indra, i don't remember)

 

I mean what's the point of this hype of child of prophecy?? if in part 1 in chuunin exam they always said a Dropout will surpasses a genius with hard work if in the end Naruto is reincarnation of one of the legendary shinobi??. When Naruto fight againts Neji in chuunin exam he told him to stop blaming fate for everything 'Unlike me you are a genius'. I think looking back at that word now after all this time is a bit ironic, you will die in the end anyway as a slave branch family and as a cupid, that is your fate. Naruto is suppose to be like Goku, he is not a reincarnation of any legend or a genius he is a real dropout from the lowest ranking warrior in planet vegeta, a baby that has no talent with only 1 batle power unlike baby Broly who has 10.000 battle power the moment he was born as a genius, but in the end surpasses the genius Prince Vegeta and become the strongest saiyan and strongest in the universe just with hard work alone.

Unlike Naruto we never even see him once win a fight against Sasuke, he will forever stay in his shadow. He lose everything in every aspect, Sasuke is equal or stronger than him no matter how hard he train and work, he lost the girl of his dream to his rival sasuke no matter how many sacrifice and hard work he try to make her happy, and in the end he become a hokage but he is not free he is trapped in the village .. i think Danzou will be happy since he wants to lock him as a jinchuriki in the village, while Sasuke get his freedom to travel around the world, and on the top of it all he is even more ugly than before while Sasuke getting even more handsome than before.

 

 

 

He really doesn't simply accept things as they are. I think the real issue is that the issue is solved in superficial way and it's really solved well before the final chapter. This issue is combined with the fact that Kishimoto clearly has no idea what a post-ninja world is supposed to look like in a ninja manga. To be fair, I'm not sure there is an adequate resolution to that, but this issue is very apparent in the final chapter.

The change of the world really begins during the Kage Summit and ends when everyone is inspired to follow Naruto. So, he changes the world, but it's unsatisfying because it's so close to a none answer. It really is not much more than the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

I've said before that one of his worst, but defensible, decisions was to take a personal conflict and turn it into a world wide one. The cycle of hate worked much better when it was a component of the Naruto/Sasuke conflict. Because of Part 1, when knew why they were at odds. When the five nations, we knew they were at odds significantly enough to have generate multiple great wars, but the "why" is missing. Was it cultural? Territorial? Economic? Some combination? No clue. Without that knowledge its impossible to tell whether their initial decision to follow Naruto and for it to stand for 15 years is reasonable. Even in the end, we see only individuals get along.

In WWII, when Japan and Germany were defeated, the conflict between the West and the USSR resumed. The only thing that joined them was a mutual enemy that temporarily superseded their existed conflicts. With that threat abated their conflict resumed. So whether their immediately alliance would last? Who knows because nobody knows why the conflicts existed to begin with. Developing that takes lots of time and that is one reason I believe expanding the Naruto/Sasuke conflict to a worldwide one was a mistake.

For me, it's hard to accept that its that simple. Moreover, because it ends the cycle of hate, the characters and author are relieved of the need to answer any hard questions. It's not as if there is a universal answer to the cycle of hate, but other than his confrontation with Nagato when does anyone seriously have to resolve their hate. I guess with Naruto and Obito? Sasuke and Naruto never really do. They fight, they draw, and Sasuke decides, fine, I'll try it your way. Is there really ever any true resolution?

Their alliance of convenience is the change, but it's a superficial solution that can't be evaluated because we know so little about the underlying issues between the character and villages.

 

Well it's long been established that that this incompetent writer took a dump on his own story since long ago. BECAUSE with out with out an editor, he can't write! *gasp* Oh sure he's developing all these complex themes and plots but ultimately he focusing his entire kittening universe on the epic and tragic (sniffles sobs* sarcastically) bromance of Naruto and Sasuke. Yup he's just taking one kittening personal conflict and escalating it into a world wide problem. :down: honestly that premise failed to impress me for the last few years I was just following it just to see the conclusion 


Edited by Phantom_999, 09 January 2016 - 11:30 AM.

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#45 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 03:54 PM

Honestly you could also blame the third for the team 7. When you look at the teams and i think Tsunade mention this once when going over them. The third just pair similar team together hoping they get results. it works in theory. Gai was give a team of martial artist and was allowed to train them by focusing on physical training. Lee was turned into a mini guy, Neji was a genius, and tenten was a weapon expert that the third praise her abilities. Team asuma  is based on tradition of putting a Sarutobi in charge of their former vassals and creating the next generation of Ino-Shika-Cho. Team 8 was a tracking team with expert on genjutsu leading 3 people that had various tracking skills. team 7 was a continuation of the first hokage line of teaching. The problem with team 7 is kakashi.

 

Kakashi really is an apathetic man who is at best just following his old mentor's method and didn't adapt to his team. Look at how he trained Naruto (tree walking and wind manipulation) compared to Asuma and Jiraiya. Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the rasengan by basically giving physical demonstration, and letting Naruto figure it out. Asmua after Naruto got stuck on wind manipulation was able to help Naruto through a physical demonstration, and then explaining it afterwards . Kakashi does a long complex explanation, then realize Naruto isn't getting it so he tries a simpler explanation(or get sakura or Asmua to explain it instead), then realize Naruto STILL doesn't get and Finally does the physical demonstration, and finishes of with another explanation. He taught Naruto three thing during the story line Tree walking, Shadow clone's trick, and wind manipulation. And that what he more or less did for each one. That worked for Sakura and Sasuke but it clearly didn't work for Naruto until the physical demonstration. As for Sakura he is not in charge of her love life(which is bother ironic and hypocritical seeing as that what he does by the end). But he didn't give her any direction for her to focus on. Sasuke he gave that kitten speech and then went on a mission instead of sending some to keep an eye on Sasuke.

Yeah, that's something I talk to a lot with Bryon - just how overspecialized the teams of Konoha tend to be rather than well-balanced, or at least having those specialized teams become more balanced by having them learn other skills outside of their specialties. Otherwise, if any one of them ends up in a situation without someone being able to cover for their obvious weakness, they are taken out rather quickly because their specialty was all they had/relied on with nothing to fall back on (besides basics) and the team literally loses a third of their strength.

Like, for example, Tenten was lucky that Temari wasn't aiming to kill her in the Chunin Exams or else, had they been enemies seeking to kill each other on the battlefield, she would have been toast and Team Gai would have lost their only ranged specialist, leaving them wide open to be taken out from a distance by their enemies with no way of effectively fighting back and most likely leading to their deaths. This is what lead to Neji developing the Air Palm to give himself at least one slightly ranged attack and not solely relying on melee with the Jyuken, and Tenten learning how to actually wield some of her weapons for melee combat rather than simply throwing them all from a distance.

Or, supposedly most importantly, look at Naruto. As I keep saying, Naruto never truly won most of his battles due to battle skill or anything like that, but merely moments of stupidity at Kishi's convenience, Talk no Jutsu, or simply overwhelming opponents with brute strength via Kurama chakra and attrition with the opponent running low/out of chakra long before him, but as we see against Sasuke the first time in Part Two, once Kurama's chakra was taken out of the equation by Sasuke's Sharingan, Naruto has absolutely nothing else to fall back on besides things Sasuke and others had already seen (a bunch of times) before (only a bit bigger in the case of the Odama Rasengan) because he was never taught nor bothered trying to learn anything else besides what he already had, which was very, very little (even Sasuke at least learned to wield a sword, how to more effectively use his Sharingan, and created variants of the Chidori rather than relying solely on the Chidori itself). Even Sage Mode itself, alone, ends up quickly being made obsolete and requiring Naruto to mix in Kurama's chakra to boost his power, and even against Nagato, even with Sage Mode, Naruto still ended up technically losing until Hinata's stupidity made him unleash Kurama's chakra, causing Nagato to waste most of his own chakra on several failed jutsu while Naruto is able to conveniently be made full strength again because of Minato seal hax and Kage Bunshin Sage power, and Nagato's moment of stupidity at the very end to allow Naruto to hit him with the Rasengan.

And the fault largely falls on the senseis. In fact, almost all of Konoha's senseis of that generation, when it came to their own teams anyway, seemed pretty lackluster in one way or another.

Already talked about Kakashi.

 

Asuma was way too laid back, seeming content to only observe his team while simply letting them learn from their respective clans for enhancing their own kekkei genkai-based abilities rather than actually teach them much himself besides the basics (if even that).

Kurenai seemed similar with Team Eight outside of Hinata, of whom she took a much more personal interest in due to pity, and perhaps maternal instinct.

Gai was the best of the team senseis in terms of attitude at least, but let's face it, he's largely a much more physical and melee-oriented guy himself, so I doubt he could have done anything with Neji when it comes to the Jyuken and he is certainly no weapons specialist like Tenten, so all he could really do was train them more physically like he is used to doing for himself and Lee.

 

Jiraiya clearly never bothered trying to teach Naruto anything new, opting instead to focus entirely on having Naruto learning to unleash and control more of Kurama's chakra, but when that obviously failed, he still never bothered to try to teach Naruto anything else to make up for his deficiencies without it, which is extra stupid when you consider he was supposed to be preparing Naruto to take on S-Rank, Kage-class criminals who were, aside from being as powerful, if not more powerful than Jiraiya himself, were also hand-picked for their power, skills, and more effective anti-Biju/Jinchuriki abilities, while all were able to be controlled by a, at the time, single, mysterious individual who could only be assumed to be much stronger than even ones like Itachi and Kisame.

 

Even Iruka, who was usually the attempted voice of reason at times, like when he argued against Team Seven being given a C-Rank mission so soon or against having the Konoha rookies enter the Chunin Exams due to their inexperience, thus much higher risk of being hurt or even killed, and such, and you'd think would be the one to keep at least Naruto conscious of the reality of things, was willing to simply stand aside and let Naruto ditch Kurama chakra training early to go play hero in the war rather than try to get him to see that the war wasn't solely all about Naruto himself.

The only ones who seemed to take sensei duties completely seriously and got far more advanced results compared to everyone else, including Naruto, were Tsunade with Sakura (as we saw, Tsunade had no qualms about Sakura getting injured during dodge training and also helped her mature mentally and emotionally, as we saw with early Part Two before Kishi screwed it all up) and, ironically, Orochimaru with Sasuke (becoming more patient, far better control with the Curse Seal, actually using pretty effective Genjutsu rather than brute ninjutsu power, and so on) when you look at the early Part Two results.


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#46 db84x

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 04:04 PM

Actually it natural in WSJ, popular series controlled by their fans sentiment due TOC system. Kishi already teased to apply NS formula but it just not sell well in WSJ reader since Naruto setting isn't school life setting anymore but heroic battle.


Edited by db84x, 09 January 2016 - 04:06 PM.


#47 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 04:11 PM

Naruto was the most controlled work I ever seen so far and I read crap load of them. It almost got me that this was a new standard. Hell, I'll go as far as saying that this must be a legit reason to say anime is dead. But I bounce back and it's just Naruto. So whatever in the end.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 09 January 2016 - 04:13 PM.


#48 rocci

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 06:59 PM

@touken
That because kishi isn't a good writer.
There's always be compromise and good writer will make the most out of it.

@dbx
Lol, Like romance is the most selling point of this manga.
With or without romance naruto will sell well, since this manga already reach immortality status.
Naruto never set as romcom school life manga.
Based on shonen law NS should become the canon pairing.
Favoritism play large part in this case.

@halfdemoninuyasha
Naruto is a trickster, most of his fight win by that. That's his battle skill and Kyubi is his arsenal.
Sasuke is regard as genius but he only learn two elemental ninjutsu. Doesn't sound genius to me.
Sensei is not a problem, but kishi uncreative and lack of battle is what make this happen.

Edited by rocci, 09 January 2016 - 07:13 PM.


#49 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 09:22 PM

@halfdemoninuyasha
Naruto is a trickster, most of his fight win by that. That's his battle skill and Kyubi is his arsenal.
Sasuke is regard as genius but he only learn two elemental ninjutsu. Doesn't sound genius to me.
Sensei is not a problem, but kishi uncreative and lack of battle is what make this happen.

 

Being a trickster would be a valid explanation if Naruto used various tricks. He didn't. He was a constant one-trick pony with Henge + Kage Bunshin ( + Rasengan attack). For a group consisting of such powerful and/or smart shinobi like Akatsuki, and with Zetsu spying on all the Jinchuriki and such, they all should have been up to date on Naruto's repetitive fighting style and abilities and been prepared, especially someone as experienced as Kakuzu or the supposed "leader" like Nagato.

And being a "genius" does not necessarily mean coming up with dozens of unique moves in a short time, but can mean various things. Shikamaru was a "genius" simply because of his brain power, but he was far from any sort of battle genius.

And yes, in-universe, the senseis are a problem.


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#50 rocci

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:03 PM

@halfdemoninuyasha
He has variation of rasengan, kage bushin, and henge.
What is the variation will he get? Wind jutsu, seal, and minato tele.
And it only become one long trick pony.

One is lazy genius while another is a genius who has revenge motivation and regard stregth above all. And he could do fire jutsu at the age of 7/8 and learn chidori for a month. What stop him from learn another ninjutsu in the span of 5 years before the series start.
Shikamaru is lazy and neji is too specialized.

Sensei suck because kishi.
Why kishi doesn't give naruto sm or elemental rasengan from the start of part 2? Because we could read naruto training arc.

Edited by rocci, 09 January 2016 - 11:09 PM.


#51 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:06 PM

@halfdemoninuyasha
He has variation of rasengan, kage bushin, and henge.
What is the variation will he get? Wind jutsu, seal, and minato tele.
And it only become one long trick pony.

If only he did more. What's odd is that the seals they got from Hagoromo or whatever seems like a power up, only to end up a sealer as well. Refresh my memory if I missed something. Like "Damn, we have to fight her. Good thing we have seals."

#52 rocci

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:10 PM

If only he did more. What's odd is that the seals they got from Hagoromo or whatever seems like a power up, only to end up a sealer as well. Refresh my memory if I missed something. Like "Damn, we have to fight her. Good thing we have seals."

It's temporary boost.
Rinnegan for sasuke and rikudo mode for naruto are the true power up.
And kishi half ass it.

#53 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:12 PM

It's temporary boost.
Rinnegan for sasuke and rikudo mode for naruto are the true power up.
And kishi half ass it.

Seals sure but after that, they kept it. Well, Sasuke did.

#54 rocci

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 11:15 PM

Seals sure but after that, they kept it. Well, Sasuke did.

Naruto did it too.
The power to use all of the bijuu power. Like sand rasengan (lel)

#55 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 12:52 AM

Naruto did it too.
The power to use all of the bijuu power. Like sand rasengan (lel)

It's rather funny because he can waste them and never return unless he goes to them. But Sasuke, he has it forever. So Naruto won against him at the perfect time.

#56 rocci

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 01:52 AM

It's rather funny because he can waste them and never return unless he goes to them. But Sasuke, he has it forever. So Naruto won against him at the perfect time.

Wait, he can't do that mode again, how?

#57 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 02:07 AM

Wait, he can't do that mode again, how?

He needs all bijuus chakra again. Unless I'm missing something. He didn't go to that mode in The Last.

#58 rocci

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 02:20 AM

He needs all bijuus chakra again. Unless I'm missing something. He didn't go to that mode in The Last.

Well, I don't read or watch any naruto relate content anymore, so I will just trust you.

I read in the web that naruto is capable to tank high level attack in the last.

#59 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 02:55 AM

Well, I don't read or watch any naruto relate content anymore, so I will just trust you.

I read in the web that naruto is capable to tank high level attack in the last.

Well, the man can breathe in space, so....yeah....



#60 rocci

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 03:42 AM

Well, the man can breathe in space, so....yeah....

That what make me think he still has the mode.




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