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Let's talk about Sexism

misconceptions reasons and my thoughts

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#21 sushi.

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:43 PM

This thread is mostly men trying to wash away the entire problem and history by making it gender neutral. When talking feminism and sexism, women should have the stage. And don't throw a kittenin' dictionary in my face. Sexism is not simply being rude to someone based on their gender.

Tumblr, whose common target for insults and blatant sexism are Straight, White Males..... While simultaneously praising straight, white males such as Benedict Cumberbatch and Tom Hiddleston.  

 

Came there for Pacific Rim fanart, stayed for the amusing irony.

Wll, Our faves are problematic. :P They're still our faves however.

 

Phantom999; Misandry is not a real threat, it leads not nothing. Misogyny is, and the recent Isla Vista case is a perfect example. Or when a girl said no about going to prom, and the guy stabbed her in the neck. Please do not treat misandry and misogyny as they are on the same level.


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#22 shadow_Uzumaki

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:46 PM

Words cannot express how accurate this is. 

Actually, the amusement's worn off after a month.  I just followed someone's account because of the awesome PacRim stuff she was linking, but I'm now being over-saturated by Dragon Age (which sucks because I love the series and over-exposure is actually making me less likely to get DA:I), hardcore shipping about shows I've never heard before (which is fine, but it's frequently yaoi pairings), random head-canons, and the aforementioned digs at Straight, White, Males....while she's posting and praising stuff about Handsome, Straight, White, Males.....

 

And all this from one person..... 

 

Spoilered for use of V body part word in URL
 The link above is what really grinded my gears....


Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 25 June 2014 - 07:47 PM.


#23 questdrivencollie

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    "If I stumble, take a tumble
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    And if I fall I’ll give it my all
    ‘Cause the fall is half the fight "

Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

True, misandry isn't threat because even though some want to seriously suppress men the same way women are/were suppressed, it's not prominent enough in society for it to happen on any large or lawful level. It's not going to happen anytime soon. But it does exist in the hearts of some, and it's just as wrong and should be treated as such. Tomorrow's values start in the hearts of today's people, even if only slowly and even if only a few hold the idea initially.


Edited by questdrivencollie, 25 June 2014 - 07:51 PM.

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#24 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:54 PM

It's worth noting that there's a reason why we still get those episode, chapter, etc in media where we have the girl standing up for herself. I guess the problem is still big but I find it being overused as well. It's like bully, don't worry on media doing some because it's either for good laugh that no one takes it serious let alone it's complete fiction or even the one that is trying to address the message gets penalized. Sexism is getting loose and I do admire the people that are against it, but don't think too much on it, especially if it has another way of saying.

#25 Phantom_999

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:38 PM

Phantom999; Misandry is not a real threat, it leads not nothing. Misogyny is, and the recent Isla Vista case is a perfect example. Or when a girl said no about going to prom, and the guy stabbed her in the neck. Please do not treat misandry and misogyny as they are on the same level.

 

Okaaaaaaaaaaay...................... So men are just superficial egomaniacs that have a superiority complex, don't have any kinds of feelings and cannot be the victims of any physical or emotional abuse? It is only women that are the victims of such abuse,and sexism plus equal rights should only be directed at women? So that basically sums up as Men are scum bags that mistreat women and do not deserve to have sympathy against them because They are the only ones causing suffering? and on the opposite end Women are in fact the delicate weak little things that they are portrayed as and must be protected, because they can't defend themselves against the abuse, and are flawless and innocent compared to men? That is how it sounds like when you dismiss misandry as petty and believe that mysogyny victims are the only sympathetic individuals. So if a Women stabs and kills a man for cheating on her or not going to the prom with her, it is considered okay? Women's actions are always completely justified because they are not violent or aggressive things by nature and only men are? I would like to point out that abuse against men is hardly if ever brought up because of that notion that men have to be strong and that showing emotional weakness is considered a disgrace, plus if a man is killed by a woman then the assumption is "he deserves it". And no, this is not about men brushing off history of violence against women, but acknowledging that you can't have or justify one without the other. If feminism is about bringing women up and knocking men down then how is that any different from the way women are treated then? You see the contradiction? If Women are supposed to be empowered by looking down on men and disregard problems against men is that supposed to make things better? It actually makes men feel justified against oppressing women if women were to do the same in kind. No one wins like that it only creates an endless loop of sexism. That's all I'm saying. If you think that abuse against men is no big deal, there are lots of men that don't think abuse against women is a big deal either. Is that justified? If not than why would you think like that, never mind applying it to just one group? If you don't like the notion that women are supposed to be weak, meek, and supporting, why would you say men are supposed to be tough assertive, and independent. Again, that is what is sounds like if you dismiss misandry and only focus on misogyny.  


Edited by Phantom_999, 25 June 2014 - 08:52 PM.

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#26 questdrivencollie

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    "If I stumble, take a tumble
    Go ahead serve me another
    And if I fall I’ll give it my all
    ‘Cause the fall is half the fight "

Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:46 PM

One person whom I won't mention accused FMA (one of my favorite anime/manga) of being sexist.

If you ask me, FMA has quite a few strong independent women, both good guys and bad guys. Sexism is the last thing I'd accuse this manga of.

But, no, this person wanted Ed and Al to be female, and Winry who "stayed at home waiting on their return" to be male. They acted as if having any strong male, God forbid the main characters, made it sexist beyond belief.


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#27 Iwantbuns

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:49 PM

Females are annoying too... Sometimes I wish we didn't have genders.

 

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we were all namekians? 


Edited by Iwantbuns, 25 June 2014 - 08:51 PM.

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Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#28 questdrivencollie

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    "If I stumble, take a tumble
    Go ahead serve me another
    And if I fall I’ll give it my all
    ‘Cause the fall is half the fight "

Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:52 PM

People would find other things to suppress others over if not that. :/ People just want an excuse to be in control.


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#29 Iwantbuns

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:13 PM

The human race in general... is just really controlling. It's like we all have it in us to want to feel more superior than others. I think it's natural.. but people shouldn't put traits like that on only one gender. Both genders are at fault when it comes to sexism.

 

But in terms of physical strength, guys are more superior than girls. And girls that act like that are probably just jealous or something, and want to feel like they're better than guys. That's just so immature. 

 

In terms of maturity though, girls are actually supposed to be better. I don't know if it has to do with influence or emotional feelings clouding judgement, but girls these days seem to be more.. immature. 

 

I'm not saying this for every single person that's a part of either of these genders, I'm just saying in general.


Edited by Iwantbuns, 25 June 2014 - 09:13 PM.

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Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#30 Nate River

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:20 PM

Okaaaaaaaaaaay...................... So men are just superficial egomaniacs that have a superiority complex, don't have any kinds of feelings and cannot be the victims of any physical or emotional abuse? It is only women that are the victims of such abuse,and sexism plus equal rights should only be directed at women? So that basically sums up as Men are scum bags that mistreat women and do not deserve to have sympathy against them because They are the only ones causing suffering? and on the opposite end Women are in fact the delicate weak little things that they are portrayed as and must be protected, because they can't defend themselves against the abuse, and are flawless and innocent compared to men? That is how it sounds like when you dismiss misandry as petty and believe that mysogyny victims are the only sympathetic individuals. So if a Women stabs and kills a man for cheating on her or not going to the prom with her, it is considered okay? Women's actions are always completely justified because they are not violent or aggressive things by nature and only men are? I would like to point out that abuse against men is hardly if ever brought up because of that notion that men have to be strong and that showing emotional weakness is considered a disgrace, plus if a man is killed by a woman then the assumption is "he deserves it". And no, this is not about men brushing off history of violence against women, but acknowledging that you can't have or justify one without the other. If feminism is about bringing women up and knocking men down then how is that any different from the way women are treated then? You see the contradiction? If Women are supposed to be empowered by looking down on men and disregard problems against men is that supposed to make things better? It actually makes men feel justified against oppressing women if women were to do the same in kind. No one wins like that it only creates an endless loop of sexism. That's all I'm saying. If you think that abuse against men is no big deal, there are lots of men that don't think abuse against women is a big deal either. Is that justified? If not than why would you think like that, never mind applying it to just one group? If you don't like the notion that women are supposed to be weak, meek, and supporting, why would you say men are supposed to be tough assertive, and independent. Again, that is what is sounds like if you dismiss misandry and only focus on misogyny.


Ah, my eyes. That block of text is killing me. I beseech you for paragraph breaks.
 

So men are just superficial egomaniacs that have a superiority complex, don't have any kinds of feelings and cannot be the victims of any physical or emotional abuse?


Nah, the implication of her statement is worse than that. That one piece of crap stabbed her for not going to prom, so I guess by extension because I didn't go to mine (which is true) I have secret desires to murder those who may of shunned me because I, too, am a guy. Hey, did you go prom? Maybe we should check your closet for some dead bodies. It uses a specific incident to smear everyone.

At my old job, I remember getting a case where a girl lied that she had been raped because she fear of what her parents would think when they found out she had sex with him. She lated admitted as such and we had the text messages that backed it up, too. She accused him of a 2-20 (+life time registration) offense because she was afraid of her parents. It'd be like holding that up as evidence that all or even most women lie about sexual assault, which would be a crap argument. That she did does not prove others do.

#31 sushi.

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:24 PM

Phantom999, you put so many words in my mouth I don't even know where to begin.
First, I do not think one gender is weaker or more innocent than another. That is not the point here. I'm talking about the inequality of the power imbalances between the genders in our society, and misogyny is not just abuse.
 
And yes, of course abuse of men is wrong. I mentioned only a few examples of why violence of women is a much bigger problem than violence of men. You gender-reversed those examples, which actually happened, but what you are talking about are what-if situations. Which only proves my point.
 
My point is that abuse of men is bad, but not a social issue on the basis of their gender. Nor is it institutionalized enough in our society to have another label than just abuse. You should google the statistics, and male entitlement.
 
Tell me, do you believe heterophobia/reverse racism/cisphobia, etc. is real as well? Just curious. :3

Edited by sushi., 25 June 2014 - 10:32 PM.

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#32 KnS

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:42 PM

Sexism does not go both ways. Only against women. It is a form of systematical opression. There is no 'ism' against men.

 

I agree that male stereotypes are harmful, but it isn't sexism. You need to pick another name. The world simply values masculinity more than femininity.

 

I can't agree with an absolute like this at all.  It's simply not true, logically or in my own experience.

 

It is a racist and sexist argument because it takes the race/sex of the speaker and devalues them solely on that grounds.

 

Truth.

 

Tumblr, whose common target for insults and blatant sexism are Straight, White Males..... 

 

Throw in "middle-class taxpayer" and you've got the trifecta.

 

 

Hmm.  I'm not sure why I'm wading into this water, but... yeah.
 
Speaking as an American woman (which I am) with access to the bounty of opportunity provided by the great nation and society in which I am blessed to live, there aren't many things that irritate me more than a woman who decries sexism.
 
I have worked in a male-dominated field all my career, but can honestly say I have never encountered sexism.  Certainly not the sort that would limit my opportunities, freedom, or personal expression and comfort.  And I've been around a long while, holding jobs such as gas station attendant and farm tractor driver before my work in IT.
 
The thing most girls/women conveniently forget is that men are men, and likewise men are not women.  They have different styles and interaction dynamics.  Women want to be treated "equal" to men, and yet still want men to treat them differently -- in other words, not treat them the way they would treat other men.
 
I wish I had $20 for every time I've had to work with a woman who screams sexism the instant she doesn't get an opportunity she subjectively believes she deserves.  It doesn't even matter if she doesn't actually want the opportunity, or has never shown any interest in it; it only matters if the opportunity was given to a man before it was offered to her.  
 
Example.  A few years ago I was working with a snotty, entitled 20-something who actually reported our terrific boss (a man) to HR because he could take two of his ten employees golfing with a big vendor, and chose the two he knew were avid golfers in their free time -- and both happened to be men.  When HR called him to investigate based on her complaint, he offered her one of the two golf spots and she declined saying, "I don't golf.  I just felt I should have been asked."
 
In my book, that right there is just stupid, entitled bitchiness.  Plain and simple.
 
I also wish I had $20 for every time I've had to work with a woman who screams and stomps her foot like a child -- or worse, runs to the ladies room to cry -- the instant a man treats her the way he would treat another man.  Doing so makes him "insensitive" and her environment "a hostile workplace."  Please.
 
Example.  A middle-aged woman I used to work with actually complained to her supervisor because a co-worker called her "ma'am."  Never mind that he was a 25-year Navy veteran and to him it was a sign of respect.  No, he was reported for making her feel "old."
 
In my experience, women are their own worst enemy when it comes to how they are perceived and subsequently treated by men.  Not all but MANY women exhibit ridiculous and embarrassing behavior, all in the name of feminism and the theoretically righteous campaign against sexism in the workplace.  They demand equality but can't really take it, and then expect some magical sort of respect because of their sex.  I've seen it time and again. 
 
How is that equal?  How is that not a hidden form of sexism on the part of women?  To continually set men up in a game they can't win, and when they fail the women are always the victim?
 
Whiny, prissy-pants, entitlement behavior is not the road to equality and freedom from sexism, ladies.  I'm living proof that if you accept men as men and allow them to be men, you can compete for any opportunity you want.  The key word there is compete.  
 
I might sound like a misogynist myself, but I'm not.  I've just seen too much absurd, double-standard behavior from women who don't get why no one takes them seriously.
 
Just my opinion.


#33 Qia

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:59 PM

As much as I understand what sexism means by the simple definition given through research on google, I still feel like I'm ignorant when it comes to certain things with the subject. For instance, I've never truly understood the phrase "Sexism can't go both ways" (which is also applied to racism when it comes to black---->white). Even after people explain it, I'm still confused in the end because their explanation practically goes against how the term is defined. Take sexism for one thing: Sexism is the prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. However, realize that it doesn't say only women but typically against them. So how is it possible that the basic definition of the word is ignored and only applied to women when this is something that occurs with both sex?  :wot: 

 

Here's another question: why should it matter if abuse occurs more often with one sex than another? Shouldn't we, as a society, work towards ending abuse in general rather than complain about how much, statistically, it affects women more? 


Edited by Qia, 25 June 2014 - 11:03 PM.

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#34 Broken Figurine

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:41 AM

When a man is meeting a woman online, his greatest fear is that she's unattractive/fat.

When a woman meets a man online, her biggest fear is that he'll kill her.

 

98% of all violent crime in North America are committed by young men. 

 

Today, courts can still bring up a woman's sexual history when dealing with rape issues. I know that men also face certain issues when dealing with rape, why? Because the idea that he was forced into/overpowered by/would refuse sex is a threat to masculinity. 

 

Women are more likely to be approached by men soliciting them for sexual interest. Repeatedly, and most had their first time being approached by a man when they were minors. Then, they are given rules about not inviting this kind of attention. Don't wear this, don't act like this, don't go out at these times, don't make eye contact. However, we have to tread carefully, because we don't want to act like a kitten. He's just being nice--it's a compliment. Nevermind this is a total stranger approaching you, unsolicited.

 

Nevermind that you've already told him he has a boyfriend. Nevermind that you made this up because past experience tells you that if his ego is threatened, this encounter is going to turn nasty. What threatens his ego? The fact that you have the audacity not to be interested in him. 

 

Not all boys are like that, but I don't hear this being a problem among male friends... and it's really common. Incredibly common. Sure, they're 'creeps', but why so prevalent? Why more men then women? Because of testostorone? Are men inherently more aggressive, forward, and entitled? Is it natural to one minute be all "hey baby" and then next "wow, why are you being such a kitten?" "you know what, you're not even that pretty anyway"

 

A popular youtube video portrayed women uncomfortable in a gym setting because guys felt inclined to talk to her constantly, despite very obvious social cues--and it wasn't just this one 'gross guy who obviously doesn't represent men as a whole'. The comment section was disgusting. "Maybe some girls needs to stop being such an antisocial kitten?" "What if I just want to be left alone?" "Men will hit on you anywhere, and everywhere :)" 

 

I really don't like discussing this topic with people who have clearly never taken a gender or equity course in their lives, or... been a woman in these situations. There's a strong denial of rape culture. 

 

Men have their issues too. There's something called a hegenomy; a power structure. Power is never in the hands of an individual, but in a system. We idolize the Type A male--the angry, driven, cold, competitive manly man who will come out victorious and will leave everything else ablaze. He is not a nurturer. He is not expressive, but highly instrumental. He is not queer. He does not show weakness. Success is his number one motive. 

 

Nevermind that this is not the healthiest person--and that an adrogynous male, who scores high in expressiveness (a generally 'feminine' trait) AND instrumentalist (generally 'masculine'). They have the happiest marriages, and raise the best children in society. Sure, it takes all types, but because of this ideal both men and women suffer.

 

Boys are raised by their fathers to 'give em hell' and to be aggressive. If men act feminine they're brought down, because they're 'like women'. Women who act masculine are either 'exalted' for stepping out of traditional subservient roles, or they're deemed unattractive and unworthy for male attention. It's why men are being pushed to get big, to take up space, to have muscle and appear strong where women's concerns are being skinny, taking up less space, not getting in the way. 

 

Most of us were raised in this society. It's sort of the issue of fish not feeling wet because they can't feel/understand that they live in water. They're little, microissues that add up every day. It's in the language we use, in the way we raise our children, in the way we divide toys, in the way we handle our justice system. The privilege is with men, because they're our ideal standard. There are gendered issues and yeah, you're going to see some ways that it could work out in a woman's favour. For instance, paying for a dinner. It used to be unthinkable for a woman to pay for dinner because /she didn't have the income/. Women are less likely to have a higher salary than a man. That doesn't mean that they can't pay for their own meals now, but some people have that mentality. Women can't take a man seriously if he won't pay. Some men will insist to foot the bill. 

 

That's what I have to say about this. As for "why should it matter that it happens toward one sex more", because that's the thing--why? If we were truly living in a gender-equal society, why such horrible abuse happening disproportionately toward women and children, by men? Women are and can be abusive too, but if this was just about "some horrible people are abusive and others are not, let's end it" why do a majority of those horrible people seem to be men? Understanding the problem is a step in fixing it. 



#35 Syn11

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:00 AM

I've encountered some vivid displays of sexism personally, but I'm a very stubborn human being, so I don't let anyone push me around. Life's full of situations when gender/sex shouldn't matter, yet many people still perceive their every waking moment through that category. It's like they can't be anything else but a man or a woman. Instead of basing our judgement on a quality of our interest, we habitually skip to a whole class. For example, when you need a worker who can cook, you should search for someone who knows how to cook properly, and it shouldn't matter whether it's a man or a woman (the latter screams potential maternity leave for employers). In reality, the ability to cook is not essentialy or exclusively related to a particular gender. Unfortunately, the majority are not taught to discern such kind of things. And that type of thinking (among other reasons) leads to sexism. 

 

If sexism goes both ways (although consequences may differ for men and women), sexual harassment is mostly a woman's burden. And it's something that disgusts and at times scares me because almost every female I know had to suffer repeatedly from unwanted and unwarranted "male attention", even if it was intended as a positive act. Women are not sexual objects that exist for men to satiate their physical and social needs. Respect demands respect.

 

By the way, the sexism and sexual harrassment are burning issues in Japan. Their society has been historically androcentric/misogynist and remains that way.

 

Kishimoto's manga isn't sexist (generally speaking, not counting the exploit of several stereotypes mainly for comic relief), but it is naive, male-orientated and selective. Why? Women's problems are barely reflected, Sakura's and Chiyo's interaction probably being the exception. Also, the shounen genre dictates the rules.                 


Edited by Syn11, 26 June 2014 - 02:18 AM.

 


#36 ciardha

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:48 AM

http://feministing.c...treet-harassed/

 

This is a snapshot of what "everyday sexism" is for women in the US.

 

I also highly recommend following Jessica Valenti's columns on the Guardian online http://www.theguardi...-valenti-column


Edited by ciardha, 26 June 2014 - 03:59 AM.

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#37 James S Cassidy

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:00 AM

Yeah, so I guess to some of you, this is okay right?

FYI: There is nudity in this, but it is not porn. It's more of a political statement.

video


Edited by James S Cassidy, 26 June 2014 - 06:06 AM.

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#38 Qia

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:29 AM

Umm I don't really get the point you're trying to make James. I've seen that video before too. In fact, I used it for a presentation on sexism in college. Nobody's saying men should be treated like that...but it just shows the way women are.  :confused: It's not to say that women, at every turn, are treated this way like the video depicts. But it happens. 


Edited by Qia, 26 June 2014 - 06:35 AM.

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#39 James S Cassidy

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:43 AM

Umm I don't really get the point you're trying to make James. I've seen that video before too. In fact, I used it for a presentation on sexism in college. Nobody's saying men should be treated like that...but it just shows the way women are.  :confused: It's not to say that women, at every turn, are treated this way like the video depicts. But it happens. 

The point is that if a person believes that treating men like is okay; that if the situation was reverse makes things "better," then it just proves that that person who screams sexism at everything believing that they are always oppressed are themselves sexist.

The point of these videos is that the action itself is wrong regardless if it was towards men or women.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 26 June 2014 - 06:53 AM.

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#40 Lucky Star

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:59 AM

I never post on this site but some of these responses...wow. 

 

About the video...no one is arguing men should be treated that way and I'm not sure where the conclusion came from that those who feel they are oppressed  wish the complete opposite to happen. The fact is, the video is a reality that women face daily (a very westro centric view ofc) and it's wrong yet it's still prominent and embedded in our society and how we think because of the structural, cultural mechanisms of misogyny.

 

I'm not really understanding your point (and many people on this thread tbh) but misandry and reverse racism don't exist at all.


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