54175 replies to this topic

[DrK]

Not really. Look neither of us are going to watch that video, so we are going off a summary lucky made of what he said. Now he could be recanting his position, but Lucky doesn't mention that which I assume he would if he did.

 

All foreverworld is saying is, "its a shame nH didn't get as much development as HA is getting." Not that nH shouldn't have happened and NS should have happened instead. He still likely thinks nH is better than NS; he ultimately just wishing it got more screen time and development.

 

The people that were obsessed with nH were because it was their revenge against being friend-zoned when they were young.

Okay but that is not even close to the words Lucky used... You are reading this stuff into it because of your (I'm sure horrible and toxic) experiences with NH fans, which I think you have more of than me. And I am sorry for this fact but also grateful for it.

 

So you may be right, in fact it's probably more likely that you are. TBH I don't know anything about him beyond just the vague idea of being a NH youtube guy. I don't even know what that entails (please do not tell me.)

 

My post wasn't really meant to be argumentative (since it's kind of absurd to do that over something neither of us are willing to watch), but I still stand by the statement that even a somewhat maladjusted human being would follow the line of logic that I laid out. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

That said. YES Samurai 8's romance is better. But so what? they are only admitting it because there is no "Sakura to poop on" and so far no love triangles exist. If things stood as they were like In Naruto I am sure they would be drooling and touching themselves over whatever "Hinata" Samurai 8 would have too. I can't trust these nut jobs to be objective over anything unless it is something they want to see or they look back on it long after the damage has been done. If I seem unsympathetic, that is because like I said, these weebs otaku wannabes helped ruin Naruto for me. therefore I give no kittens to what they have to say now. I'm just stating how I feel.  

 

I said good job on this already, but at the same time, you also nailed it because of the fact that they would be like you said if there was a love triangle going on in the long run. And being objective, they wouldn't be really, considering the crap they did to ruin Naruto and how it was going just to make themselves feel better.

 

 

All foreverworld is saying is, "its a shame nH didn't get as much development as HA is getting." Not that nH shouldn't have happened and NS should have happened instead. He still likely thinks nH is better than NS; he ultimately just wishing it got more screen time and development.

 

The people that were obsessed with nH were because it was their revenge against being friend-zoned when they were young.

 

Exactly. It feels like to them it's just about wish fulfillment, like anyone in their group (or rather cult) who wants Hinata to "win" Naruto just because of feeling sorry for her, but not thinking of the other characters' feelings.

[Phantom_999]

I am not watching foreverworld. I have seen a handful of his videos and that was enough for me; also he must not be that big a youtuber because I haven't seen him recommended to me for years now. But saying that it has been six years since Naruto ended, from what I understand his has been trying to lose weight, and had a girlfriend at some point. That may have changed his views somewhat.
 
But please note that even by your phrasing; he is not saying nH/SS shouldn't have happened (,and that NS should have happened). Just that Hachi/Anna have a better written romance than those two pairings. (Well, really just nH.) Which could just be him trying to praise Samurai 8 so people go read it.

 
*Chuckle* You're right of course. But then that is admitting that NH HAD the time to develop and grow and show mutual feelings and emotional bonding between the two. 700 chapters worth. That is admitting that Kishi had all that time to develop things between the 2 but didn't. That is ultimately telling themselves that they were baited for a couple made out of thin air and if that couple were to be a proper couple  Kishi should have focused on it. But what did he do? EVERY So called development for Hinata to get one step closer to Naruto is instantly trumped and taken away by Sakura after.
 
Lets's review those moments shall we? The prime examples are Hinata's confession and the hand holding scene. What happened after Hinata confessed her feelings and was struck down by Pain? (the Yahiko body one) Sakura hugged Naruto in front of the entire village. She didn't need to do that, she could have just told him "thank you" after hitting him for being reckless as usual but she hugged him in front of all the villagers which would have been super embarrassing to her as is. Plus Hinata seemed accepting of it. And after they held hands  during Neji's death? Minato jumped in  afterwards while Sakura was healing Naruto and asked if she was Naruto's girlfriend and Naruto went "um, yeah you could say that" and Sakura headbutted him but didn't say "no".  Where was the "No , I actually like someone else?" Kishi could have done that and is would have been a monumental development for and prove once and for all Naruto and Sakura's established relationship is "just friends", but he was stringing everyone along for the ride. Plus before those moments Hinata was only seen during her reintroduction to show case how the rest of K11 has grown and during the mission to try retrieve Sasuke again which ended in failure. She is never seen when Naruto is casually hanging around the village. Not to mention, the biggest scene between Sakura and Naruto from before chapter 450  is when she offered to feed him his ramen after having his arm casted for damage using his Rasenshuriken. No Hinata to be seen in the vicinity during that moment. 
 
Also adding in the fact that Sakura crying for him at least three times. During the scene when she heard Naruto will die if Akatsuki gets him and takes away the tailed beast inside him, when she saw his 4 tailed form and Kabuto was spelling out for her that is the extent Naruto was willing to go to bring Sasuke back to the village, and when she tearfully lamented that all she can do for Naruto is something small like healing his injuries only and Yamato tells her that putting her feelings into what she does is what counts. That is showing huge development from Sakura not only as a love interest but also as a person. Hinata gets no such moments to humanize her and show that her feelings are beyond "just a crush."
 
what I'm getting at with all of that is sure, forneverworld can admit NH should have and could have been done better and not be slapped together last second. But that is admitting the development between them is none existent that that is also admitting that Sakura had the most development with Naruto, and that was intentional. If Hinata was suppose to have has some development to actually show a progressing relationship with Naruto it should have been done long ago. NOTHING HAPPEN. So is he admitting NaruSaku fans or hell, even neutral fans were right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's a VERY BIG pill to swallow I tell you

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 March 2020 - 11:17 AM.

[DrK]

 
*Chuckle* You're right of course. But then that is admitting that NH HAD the time to develop and grow and show mutual feelings and emotional bonding between the two. 700 chapters worth. That is admitting that Kishi had all that time to develop things between the 2 but didn't. That is ultimately telling themselves that they were baited for a couple made out of thin air and if that couple were to be a proper couple  Kishi should have focused on it. But what did he do? EVERY So called development for Hinata to get one step closer to Naruto is instantly trumped and taken away by Sakura after.

And then all the development from Sakura was instantly trumped and taken away by Hinata after!

 

No wait it was taken away by Sakura herself in a disgusting and nauseating chapter near the end... And Hinata didn't do anything.

Edited by DrK, 03 March 2020 - 10:33 PM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I always looked at Chapter 693 differently. I always looked at it as Sakura-Chan trying to protect Naruto since Sasuke was talking about killing all of the Bijuu including Naruto. She essentially sacrificed her feelings for Naruto just to protect him. I read a lot from 690-693 to come to that conclusion.  That's how I saw it. 

[DrK]

I always looked at Chapter 693 differently. I always looked at it as Sakura-Chan trying to protect Naruto since Sasuke was talking about killing all of the Bijuu including Naruto. She essentially sacrificed her feelings for Naruto just to protect him. I read a lot from 690-693 to come to that conclusion.  That's how I saw it. 

Yeah but even if that were true it doesn't really matter to me. TBH I dislike the idea of Naruto and Sakura flagellating themselves for their whole lives based on missed signals or whatever other stupid crap more than I dislike what actually happened. It's not like after Naruto not-really-defeated him, Sasuke was like "Okay I won't kill you, but if Sakura says that she likes you then I will." Nothing was stopping her afterwards and you know that Naruto didn't act on the Hinata thing for a ridiculously long time (arguably not at all until she guilted and gaslighted him with a genjutsu)

[tricksie]

I always looked at Chapter 693 differently. I always looked at it as Sakura-Chan trying to protect Naruto since Sasuke was talking about killing all of the Bijuu including Naruto. She essentially sacrificed her feelings for Naruto just to protect him. I read a lot from 690-693 to come to that conclusion.  That's how I saw it. 

Both Naruto and Sakura are big self-sacrificers in the story. Naruto gives up everything over and over again for Sasuke. Even pursuing Sakura. 

 

And Sakura gave up everything for a partner/father who abandons her. She gave up her career to be a sahm mom. She gave up her chance at a normal life/family with a good partner/father to wait around for Sasuke.

 

After the end of the story...SAKURA TURNS INTO NARUTO! lol

 

Actually, whatever feelings exist between Naruto and Sakura, they are never discussed. Naruto never fulfills his quest to pursue her. But he never says he stopped loving her. It's just dropped. And Sakura's confession is never proved nor disproved. Sure, there's a sketchy one-night tryst with Sasuke that results in a child (who grows up to think she might not be Sakura's). Sakura raises her dutifully as an Uchiha. But no where is there evidence of overwhelming love for Sasuke. Or a point where she definitively stopped loving Naruto. Her very clear feelings for Naruto are just dropped.

 

But at least Sakura told him. Naruto will always be the one who never told her his true feelings when he had the chance. 

 

If it weren't for Sasuke, Naruto would have told her. And if it weren't for Sasuke, Sakura most certainly would have chosen her own happiness with Naruto instead of maintaining a clan legacy that the last clan member apparently didn't care about at all.

 

If you took Sasuke out of the picture, then Naruto and Sakura's storyline would have certainly changed. But the biggest change would have been that the obstacle to their mutual happiness would have been removed. 

 

And of course, let's not forget the other obstacle in the end. Hinata. If we removed her from the 700-chapter storyline, it wouldn't change Naruto and Sakura's story one bit. That should show how important she was in Naruto's life!!!

[DrK]

Both Naruto and Sakura are big self-sacrificers in the story. Naruto gives up everything over and over again for Sasuke. Even pursuing Sakura. 

 

And Sakura gave up everything for a partner/father who abandons her. She gave up her career to be a sahm mom. She gave up her chance at a normal life/family with a good partner/father to wait around for Sasuke.

Like I said... Disgusting and nauseating.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Both Naruto and Sakura are big self-sacrificers in the story. Naruto gives up everything over and over again for Sasuke. Even pursuing Sakura. 

 

And Sakura gave up everything for a partner/father who abandons her. She gave up her career to be a sahm mom. She gave up her chance at a normal life/family with a good partner/father to wait around for Sasuke.

 

After the end of the story...SAKURA TURNS INTO NARUTO! lol

 

Actually, whatever feelings exist between Naruto and Sakura, they are never discussed. Naruto never fulfills his quest to pursue her. But he never says he stopped loving her. It's just dropped. And Sakura's confession is never proved nor disproved. Sure, there's a sketchy one-night tryst with Sasuke that results in a child (who grows up to think she might not be Sakura's). Sakura raises her dutifully as an Uchiha. But no where is there evidence of overwhelming love for Sasuke. Or a point where she definitively stopped loving Naruto. Her very clear feelings for Naruto are just dropped.

 

But at least Sakura told him. Naruto will always be the one who never told her his true feelings when he had the chance. 

 

If it weren't for Sasuke, Naruto would have told her. And if it weren't for Sasuke, Sakura most certainly would have chosen her own happiness with Naruto instead of maintaining a clan legacy that the last clan member apparently didn't care about at all.

 

If you took Sasuke out of the picture, then Naruto and Sakura's storyline would have certainly changed. But the biggest change would have been that the obstacle to their mutual happiness would have been removed. 

 

And of course, let's not forget the other obstacle in the end. Hinata. If we removed her from the 700-chapter storyline, it wouldn't change Naruto and Sakura's story one bit. That should show how important she was in Naruto's life!!!

 

Well said, Tricksie. And that in there lies the rub. The fact that everything is just thrown away for a side character, or throwing away the things that made Naruto good, and only just amplifying the bad things in the process too. Also makes a guy wonder if Kishimoto did that as a sign that he wasn't happy deep down in the end, since we never see real happiness from Naruto and Sakura, even in stuff he's written and drawn. Like with Sakura, you see her looking sad when Sasuke claims Sarada is what connects them, and Naruto even on his "first date" with Hinata didn't look too happy when she suggested Ichiraku when she saw how little money he had...

 

So something tells me he knew it was forced, but he kept his mouth shut and refused to be more assertive. I also can imagine that is why right now with Samurai 8 that he's just sticking to writing and not also drawing the series, so he doesn't burn himself out again. And in turn, he likely has better editors at Shonen Jump who aren't gonna make him turn his work into something else just to satisfy their own goddamn egos and lust for money.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Of Course Kishi knew it was forced but he won't admit it. He has too much pride to admit he was wrong. Writers are like Coaches and politicians. They're the most stubborn people on Earth.

[DrK]

Of Course Kishi knew it was forced but he won't admit it. He has too much pride to admit he was wrong. Writers are like Coaches and politicians. They're the most stubborn people on Earth.

I mean, if the guy lied to his wife, he's not going to stop lying when it's just to a group of random faceless fans that he doesn't and never will know personally.

[Moon_Girl]

Showing hanabi is better than hinata even with less screen time. I always found hanabi more interesting than hinata.

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.

If that's not the picture perfect example of what this series has turned into, I don't know what is.

[Illnevergiveup3]

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.

If that's not the picture perfect example of what this series has turned into, I don't know what is.

let me guess, the fight magically went into a standstill, as Hanabi watched Hinata sit there for at least 20 minutes having flashbacks about Naruto's hand to pump herself up, instead of Hanabi finishing her off? Hanabi should have slapped Hinata's head around until it faced the opposite direction.

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 06 March 2020 - 02:05 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.

If that's not the picture perfect example of what this series has turned into, I don't know what is.

 

Oh, good God... X_X

[VanitasDS76491]

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.
If that's not the picture perfect example of what this series has turned into, I don't know what is.

Storm 4 adventure Mode had hanabi following Naruto around to see why hinata likes him and you fight her three times.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I am serious when I say that her head needs to slapped around in the opposite direction. With lethal force.

[DrK]

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.

Hinata is different from other heroines because rather than stand at the hero's side, she supports him from in the shadows.

 

Or something.

[Bail o' Lies]

What's sad is that they've ruined that as well.
I don't know all the details, but there was an official novel where Hanabi and Hinata go to a hot spring and Hanabi disapproves of Hinata's relationship with Naruto. So they have a fighting match. In the hot springs.
And of course, mary-sue-hime wins because of her love for Naruto or something.

If that's not the picture perfect example of what this series has turned into, I don't know what is.

Oh, that was that Boruto manga that came a year or two ago? Everyone stop caring about those here a few years ago so we never really talked about the details.

[tricksie]

you know, just thinking back over the arc of the manga, motivations etc.... (not cause I'm busy finishing fics! lol) 

 

But it occurred to me that instead of Naruto mooning of Sasuke all the time, and refusing his love for Sakura because of whatever he believes she feels for him, it would have made so much more sense for him to give up his love for Sakura and encourage her to pursue Sasuke for the very simple fact that NARUTO HAS A FOX DEMON INSIDE HIM. And Sasuke doesn't. 

 

If Naruto loved her, then he'd want her to have a chance at a normal life with someone like Sasuke. (Of course, I'm stepping around the fact that Sasuke's psychotic through most of the manga.) But it would make so much more sense for Naruto to admit that he probably wasn't anyone's first choice...especially in a village where everyone supposedly hated him. And even if Sakura did love him back, it would be hard for her to be hated by her village too, or to watch as he fought back others for the rest of his life who wanted his power.

 

If he loved her, then he'd want her to have a chance at a normal life. It would make perfect sense for him to think she'd have a better shot at it with Sasuke than with him. Instead of...'you said you liked Sasuke once when we were 12. And now there are no takebacks. I'm off to marry Hinata. So byeee....'

 

just a thought about how differently it could have all gone down.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I think if Kishi really wrote the story the way he wanted, Naruto would have fulfilled his promise and then felt worthy enough to actually pursue her in the way he wants. Yes, he was selfless as HELL, but he still asked her on dates, playfully or not, he was about to take her on her offer. But, not at the risk of her lying to herself and him not having her the right way. That was his goal all along. To bring Sasuke back for her, and THEN pursue her how he wanted. He wants her the right way. Where she loves him like he loves her. Then he could Confess to her and make her his. If Kurama did not become Naruto's best buddy, then that could be another selfless route Naruto could have took on for her happiness. Even though, I would hate to see him do that.

I like the Naruto in Chapter 181 I believe, who stated all of his goals, including getting Sakura-Chan to love him, and was determined to get them done at all costs. The type of character Naruto is, I want him to achieve EVERYTHING, because he never stops until he achieves it, and that includes the woman he loves.

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 09 March 2020 - 08:07 PM.