27 replies to this topic

[TrueSacrifice]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't see anything recently.

As my topic title asks is Sasuke responsible for his actions i.e. murder, attempted murder, treason etc. or is he simply a victim of circumstance and should be absolved as such? As we recently learned one of the fundamental flaws of the Uchiha clan is that their love leads them to extreme actions. In Sasuke's case it was love of his brother to get revenge on the people responsible for using him.

If you ask me Sasuke should be held responsible and is responsible for his own actions. Yes he was manipulated but he was never put under mind control or anything. Everything he did was of his own will.

Now this doesn't mean that I think he shouldn't be nor cannot be forgiven. I'm just saying his actions shouldn't be swept under the rug just because some bad things happened to him.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't see anything recently.

As my topic title asks is Sasuke responsible for his actions i.e. murder, attempted murder, treason etc. or is he simply a victim of circumstance and should be absolved as such? As we recently learned one of the fundamental flaws of the Uchiha clan is that their love leads them to extreme actions. In Sasuke's case it was love of his brother to get revenge on the people responsible for using him.

If you ask me Sasuke should be held responsible and is responsible for his own actions. Yes he was manipulated but he was never put under mind control or anything. Everything he did was of his own will.

Now this doesn't mean that I think he shouldn't be nor cannot be forgiven. I'm just saying his actions shouldn't be swept under the rug just because some bad things happened to him.

Yes, he is responsible. He made the choice to join Orochimaru. He made the choice to rebel Konoha and kill a member (Danzou). He may be seen as not so good, he's still part of Konoha, especially in government. He almost killed Naruto, he joined Akatsuki for his selfish desire. He had choices and he chose to be anti-hero. The main issue now for Naruto is to keep him alive and make sure he no longer do anything bad again. It's like Tobi said, he chose to be avenger and that's how he does it. Tobi only told him the story to make him understand that life isn't easy and Itachi went through with it.

[merryGOflava]

yea he's responsible.

we don't know how bad his consequences will be but, he's responsible

[TrueSacrifice]

yea he's responsible.

we don't know how bad his consequences will be but, he's responsible

That's the question. What will his consequences be? What should they be?

[TouKen4Life3g]

That's the question. What will his consequences be? What should they be?

Banishment. Whether he wants to return or not, all the crimes he has caused will make him banished. But at least he can protect it still without notice.

[Atheck]

Naturally he is. Sasuke's crimes extend to treason, affiliation with a defected madman, numerous attempted murders (several of them including Kage leaders and their bodyguards), affiliation with a terrorist organization, attempted kidnapping of a village's vital security element, murder (19 deaths altogether, 21 if you count the original White Zetsu and Danzo), destruction of foreign property, and encroachment into an international meeting between world leaders. He's a product of his environment which wasn't exactly the most favourable of possibilities but ultimately everything he's ever done has been conscientiously selected by himself. He wanted to commit those crimes and he chose to forsake a life of potential happiness for the sake of satiating this primal desire for vengeance. Granted he had outside influences such as Orochimaru, Itachi, and Tobi but it was still ultimately his decision on whether he chose to engulf himself in darkness or not.

As for potential repercussions? Of course he likely will not receive any punishment whatsoever. Not only because of his future actions that will have assisted the alliance in surviving the apocalypse but also it will be due to the alliance crediting him with having stopped the ET (Onoki stating that anyone who did such is a hero even though it yielded little benefit at that point with the only notable benefits being the disappearance of Kimimaro and Chiyo), "killing" Itachi, killing Deidara, "killing" Oro, and even killing Zabuza back in P1 as well because the world attributes his death to someone who was a Genin at the time and not the legendary copy ninja, Kakashi, who also was present during the fight and had been the one to actually fight Zabuza.

[TrueSacrifice]

Naturally he is. Sasuke's crimes extend to treason, affiliation with a defected madman, numerous attempted murders (several of them including Kage leaders and their bodyguards), affiliation with a terrorist organization, attempted kidnapping of a village's vital security element, murder (19 deaths altogether, 21 if you count the original White Zetsu and Danzo), destruction of foreign property, and encroachment into an international meeting between world leaders. He's a product of his environment which wasn't exactly the most favourable of possibilities but ultimately everything he's ever done has been conscientiously selected by himself. He wanted to commit those crimes and he chose to forsake a life of potential happiness for the sake of satiating this primal desire for vengeance. Granted he had outside influences such as Orochimaru, Itachi, and Tobi but it was still ultimately his decision on whether he chose to engulf himself in darkness or not.

As for potential repercussions? Of course he likely will not receive any punishment whatsoever. Not only because of his future actions that will have assisted the alliance in surviving the apocalypse but also it will be due to the alliance crediting him with having stopped the ET (Onoki stating that anyone who did such is a hero even though it yielded little benefit at that point with the only notable benefits being the disappearance of Kimimaro and Chiyo), "killing" Itachi, killing Deidara, "killing" Oro, and even killing Zabuza back in P1 as well because the world attributes his death to someone who was a Genin at the time and not the legendary copy ninja, Kakashi, who also was present during the fight and had been the one to actually fight Zabuza.

I can see Sasuke getting off scot free only due to the intervention of Naruto. He will make everyone see what Sasuke had to go through and how that shaped him. He will succeed where Hashirama failed. I don't think this should happen but this is how I think it's going to happen.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I can see Sasuke getting off scot free only due to the intervention of Naruto. He will make everyone see what Sasuke had to go through and how that shaped him. He will succeed where Hashirama failed. I don't think this should happen but this is how I think it's going to happen.

Didn't Madara left on his own term? The difference it will be that instead of killing Sasuke to save peace, bring him redemption and settle peace not for everyone but for themselves. It depends on what happens next. If he becomes the final battle with something on the line, he can't be redeemed. If he does all good and not one small ounce of badness, then maybe just maybe he can get away, but we have to wait and see.

[James S Cassidy]

He is, just as Obito is responsible for his, Orochimaru is for his, and so forth. I do dislike people who say that he is not responsible due to the ole Uchiha massacre thing, but come on. They can forgive Sasuke, but not Obito who I could argue went through the same ordeal (metaphorically speaking)?

Will he be punished? Sadly, no. Why? Naruto. Naruto will not let Sasuke be punished because he "understands him." It is kind of ironic and shows how biased Naruto can be when he is so willing to take out Obito, but not so willing to take out Sasuke. I know the argument would be "Well, Sasuke is Naruto's best friend." Yeah, Obito is Kakashi's best friend. Maybe Kakashi wants to save him too? It is a weird biased that we show mercy to friends and family when they do wrong, but not show mercy to anyone else. Someone is someone's friend and family somewhere, but it shouldn't excuse their actions.

[TouKen4Life3g]

He is, just as Obito is responsible for his, Orochimaru is for his, and so forth. I do dislike people who say that he is not responsible due to the ole Uchiha massacre thing, but come on. They can forgive Sasuke, but not Obito who I could argue went through the same ordeal (metaphorically speaking)?

Will he be punished? Sadly, no. Why? Naruto. Naruto will not let Sasuke be punished because he "understands him." It is kind of ironic and shows how biased Naruto can be when he is so willing to take out Obito, but not so willing to take out Sasuke. I know the argument would be "Well, Sasuke is Naruto's best friend." Yeah, Obito is Kakashi's best friend. Maybe Kakashi wants to save him too? It is a weird biased that we show mercy to friends and family when they do wrong, but not show mercy to anyone else. Someone is someone's friend and family somewhere, but it shouldn't excuse their actions.

I don't know, it felt like Naruto accepted that Sasuke has indeed done bad things and now, he must fight him to stop him. I can see him defending Sasuke in some measure, but Sasuke has to pay consequences. Naruto just won't allow death to be the answer, but rather a chance. The thing is that Kishi seems to make consequences to those who has done wrong things. Nagato changed but pay the price of life to redeem. Put it this way, you can turn good but the consequence must happen. The only question is what for Sasuke. Again, if Sasuke does another bad deed in this arc or if possible, the next, no way he will be forgiven by all, just Team 7. So yeah, Sasuke better stay on good terms and that's what we are wondering today. Is he going to stay on good term? Is he going to do another bad deed? Is there more than meets the eyes? When Sasuke shows up, better get ready for answers.

[James S Cassidy]

I don't know, it felt like Naruto accepted that Sasuke has indeed done bad things and now, he must fight him to stop him. I can see him defending Sasuke in some measure, but Sasuke has to pay consequences. Naruto just won't allow death to be the answer, but rather a chance. The thing is that Kishi seems to make consequences to those who has done wrong things. Nagato changed but pay the price of life to redeem. Put it this way, you can turn good but the consequence must happen. The only question is what for Sasuke. Again, if Sasuke does another bad deed in this arc or if possible, the next, no way he will be forgiven by all, just Team 7. So yeah, Sasuke better stay on good terms and that's what we are wondering today. Is he going to stay on good term? Is he going to do another bad deed? Is there more than meets the eyes? When Sasuke shows up, better get ready for answers.

Naruto is not that accepting seeing how he can't even accept that Sasuke might not be redeemable. He is so unaccepting of this fact that he is willing to risk his whole life on it and give up his dreams and his love for it. He can't even accept this war is not just about him. He couldn't even accept the concept that people choose the live the way they want to...or die like they want to. Look at Neji's death, did he look like a man who accepted the reality?

We always assume Naruto can "handle" or "accept" things, but we are constantly proven wrong when he does the opposite when the time that advice is deemed most appropriate.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 May 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Naruto is not that accepting seeing how he can't even accept that Sasuke might not be redeemable. He is so unaccepting of this fact that he is willing to risk his whole life on it and give up his dreams and his love for it. He can't even accept this war is not just about him. He couldn't even accept the concept that people choose the live the way they want to...or die like they want to. Look at Neji's death, did he look like a man who accepted the reality?

We always assume Naruto can "handle" or "accept" things, but we are constantly proven wrong when he does the opposite when the time that advice is deemed most appropriate.

That's true. But still, if that's the case, if the majority voted for Sasuke to get whatever he gets, he has to accept it though if it was death row, then no. Unless he'll make himself look like a renegade guy who threatens anyone who wants to harm Sasuke in which many is against him, then I guess he can take it like that. Right now, I want to see where Sasuke stand. If he ended up doing another bad deed, no way in hell people could forgive him, especially if it's the world in stake. Yes, Naruto can, but again, reality says that not everyone can. Hashirama's story is the same, but the one difference is that he killed Madara for protection of peace, which shouldn't be that way. In other words, it's not given that he will return to village but given to be good. Right now, maybe or maybe not, Naruto/Sasuke stands in the phase of both rival, a leader and outsider, seeking true peace. So pretty much to me, it's all up to Sasuke. Another bad deed, redemption from all (excluding the obvious people) is gone.

[Branden]

It's entirely possible for Sasuke to be forgiven. If one speech from Gaara can cease the hatred of the entire ninja world then one speech from Naruto can get them to forgive Sasuke.

Plus, if Naruto told them to forgive Sasuke how would they stop him? Say they're going to kill Sasuke? Start an entire war because they are mad about somebody who use to be a killer? By that same logic they would declare war on every single nation for all the death and destruction they've caused in the past.

Bottom line is, they shinobi alliance has proven that they can forgive past actions, so there's no reason not to believe that they can do it again.

And honestly, given that Sasuke is on his way to save the alliance, I think the least they could do is forgive him.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It's entirely possible for Sasuke to be forgiven. If one speech from Gaara can cease the hatred of the entire ninja world then one speech from Naruto can get them to forgive Sasuke.

Plus, if Naruto told them to forgive Sasuke how would they stop him? Say they're going to kill Sasuke? Start an entire war because they are mad about somebody who use to be a killer? By that same logic they would declare war on every single nation for all the death and destruction they've caused in the past.

Bottom line is, they shinobi alliance has proven that they can forgive past actions, so there's no reason not to believe that they can do it again.

And honestly, given that Sasuke is on his way to save the alliance, I think the least they could do is forgive him.

If Sasuke don't do anything bad, then it's possible. He better stay that way, but somehow I got a bad feeling that it's not that simple.

[Dkey]

Short term Sasuke will have the same fate Madara had. He will be bansihed by everybod maybe the only village that wouldn't would be Konoha, but that's because the hokage is Tsunade/Kakashi/Naruto so it goes back to what Naruto wants. Hashirama forced his clan to go to peace with the Uchiha, it was a good decision but it didn't cure old hatreds.


All villains in the series ( except 3-4 small exceptions) chose to do evil because of past grievances but it was their decision so they consciously chose to do what they wanted to do. Even thou they were in the wrong. The same can be said of Sasuke. The other labeled him a criminal and consider him dangerous while Naruto doesn't.

[Atheck]

It's entirely possible for Sasuke to be forgiven. If one speech from Gaara can cease the hatred of the entire ninja world then one speech from Naruto can get them to forgive Sasuke.

The difference with this is that many of those individuals whom Gaara was communicating with acted against each other out of obligation for their respective nations in past conflicts. Sasuke's justifications, whilst it may be appealing to himself and Tobi, are detrimental to everyone else and they're completely irrational.

Plus, if Naruto told them to forgive Sasuke how would they stop him? Say they're going to kill Sasuke? Start an entire war because they are mad about somebody who use to be a killer? By that same logic they would declare war on every single nation for all the death and destruction they've caused in the past.

There's a difference between fighting and killing during times of war when you're merely carrying out the instructions provided by your superior and threatening to massacre an entire village, including women and children, who had no part in the destruction of your clan. I can understand Sasuke not wanting to be affiliated with Konoha or to serve in their military. In fact given the circumstances of Konoha's leaders being the reason for his clan's death I would actually support it if he chose to simply remain as a wandering ninja without any formal ties to a nation. It's the least Konoha could grant him after his clan was killed. But to encroach upon the sovereign borders of other nations and assault innocent people who did nothing to you just for the sake of "testing your abilities" is completely unjustifiable. The same applies to the samurai whom he killed and there is no previous political intricacies to justify Sasuke since the Land of Iron had been neutral in world affairs up until the current war.

Bottom line is, they shinobi alliance has proven that they can forgive past actions, so there's no reason not to believe that they can do it again.

Of course. I have no doubt that he will be vindicated of any past transgressions with the only possible dissidents being Raikage and Onoki. I'm sure the silenced voices of those whom Sasuke has murdered would be in agreement as well. I'm now curious to see what your opinion is of others being exonerated from their crimes. Do you think Orochimaru should be given a second chance? Despite all of his horrendous acts against nature and apathy for human life is he worthy of redemption as well in your eyes? What about Madara and Tobi? If they chose to repent should they not face justice as well? Does a single act of assistance, regardless of what their personal intentions may be, negate everything else they've ever done?

Where precisely do you draw the line between who is redeemable and who isn't? Do you even believe that concepts such as "justice" and "righteousness" should even exist? Are they merely subjective? How should the alliance interpret those concepts in your honest opinion?

And honestly, given that Sasuke is on his way to save the alliance, I think the least they could do is forgive him.

I think it'll give him a bargaining chip to use should anyone express sentiments of being against the notion even though this could potentially backfire since not only is Sasuke acting only out of obligation to Itachi and not of any genuine concern for the people he's rescuing but Orochimaru has been released and he's now in control of the zombie Hokages. Orochimaru, no doubt, is going to shift loyalties at the first possible moment and when that occurs Sasuke will technically be partially responsible for any deaths that are caused by Oro.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

He is, just as Obito is responsible for his, Orochimaru is for his, and so forth. I do dislike people who say that he is not responsible due to the ole Uchiha massacre thing, but come on. They can forgive Sasuke, but not Obito who I could argue went through the same ordeal (metaphorically speaking)?

Will he be punished? Sadly, no. Why? Naruto. Naruto will not let Sasuke be punished because he "understands him." It is kind of ironic and shows how biased Naruto can be when he is so willing to take out Obito, but not so willing to take out Sasuke. I know the argument would be "Well, Sasuke is Naruto's best friend." Yeah, Obito is Kakashi's best friend. Maybe Kakashi wants to save him too? It is a weird biased that we show mercy to friends and family when they do wrong, but not show mercy to anyone else. Someone is someone's friend and family somewhere, but it shouldn't excuse their actions.

Actually he will not be punished because it's a shounen and Sasuke indirectly or directly will help them to win this war when their defeat is imminent thanks to our buddy Naruto.

[Branden]

*sigh*
what you're not understanding is that Sasuke has been deceived his whole life. he's been traumatized numerous times. Only now is Sasuke finally starting to free his mind from the forces of evil and you would say "Nope, we won't let you be a good person, instead you have to die evil so that we can all feel good." The reality of the situations is clear, the dead are dead, and nothing is going to fix that. If he's no longer a threat then he shouldn't be treated like one. now if Sasuke was still evil that's a different story, then he would be a threat and lethal force would be necessary to defend the nation.

[Atheck]

*sigh*
what you're not understanding is that Sasuke has been deceived his whole life.

Oh, I understand clearly but is there no justification for depriving others of their lives in the manner that Sasuke has or threatening to commit what equates to genocide.

he's been traumatized numerous times.

Almost every character in this series has some traumatic flaw that ultimately alters who they are. Orochimaru's parents died and that was his initial reasoning for aspiring to obtain immortality but now his mindset has become so distorted that he lost sight of his original objective. Nagato sought a means to bring about long lasting peace due to his horrific experiences with war but does that justify him literally wiping from the face of the earth anyone whom he was in contention with alongside their families or individuals they were associated with?

The point is you can't commit heinous crimes and use the excuse that your past was tragic as a crutch to somehow vindicate you of any transgressions that you may commit.

Only now is Sasuke finally starting to free his mind from the forces of evil

His motivations remain centered upon himself, his brother, and his clan. He acts out of obligation because protecting Konoha is what his brother, Itachi, wishes of him. Not out of any veritability to help others or because he wishes to protect those whom he used to claim were close to him. Helping Konoha is essentially a by-product of wanting to abide by his brother's wishes.

and you would say "Nope, we won't let you be a good person, instead you have to die evil so that we can all feel good."

Selecting to assist the alliance because of him feeling compelled to fulfill what Itachi desired him does not excuse his past actions. If Sasuke were truly remorseful, he would denounce the crimes he previously committed and accept whatever fate that is given to him by those who were harmed by him.

The reality of the situations is clear, the dead are dead, and nothing is going to fix that.

Yes, and so we should simply disregard the crimes committed against them and allow the man who killed them to walk away without any punishment. Even if this person is unstable and alters his loyalties at any moment when provided with a certain ethical influence by others.

If he's no longer a threat then he shouldn't be treated like one. now if Sasuke was still evil that's a different story, then he would be a threat and lethal force would be necessary to defend the nation.

The issue isn't whether he's evil or not, it's him receiving some sort of punishment to not allow these transgressions to go unanswered. To be honest I would be terrified of such a system who permitted murderers, proponents of genocide, and terrorist conspirators to walk away without any justice being provided simply because these individuals have "changed" their views, questionably might I add.

Edited by Atheck, 04 May 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Agree with above post.

If Sasuke wants a possible of redemption like in 75%, he better NOT do any bad things throughout the series from this point on. Unfortunately, the chance could be slim because we know Sasuke is doing this for Itachi, but it doesn't mean he's on good term with Konoha itself. He can be normal, but it's not like the redemption is done.

Also, the reason why I said could be slim is because Kishi has said they will fight in the end and it will be grand. Not only that, but the idea of Sasuke of being bothered that Naruto gotten so strong, the world can feel it without being a sensor. Let's face it, Naruto is too strong for Sasuke now because Naruto technically got two power-up in one arc while Sasuke got one but doesn't do much except no blind effect. So, if Kishi wants an equal battle, what does Kishi have to do? Well, I don't know but I got a bad feeling about it. Again, right now it seems too easy, something will happen and it could be holy s*** moment.