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#24761 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:55 PM

 

Some of these aren't true. He never said he decided NS early on, nor did he say SS was toxic. The last one is a misunderstanding, I.E., it would be shallow for Sakura to move from Naruto, a shallow sort of love, which wouldn't have helped her character.

 

It's not lying, it's possibly memory isn't 100% on, but he's still rather consistent, and he .. does care? This narrative of not caring is just silly. 

If he cared, he would've never let the final chapter and the Last be like they where. We told you one hundred times it's NOT ABOUT SHIPPING. The ending and the movie contradict the overall history and transform characters beliefs and personalities, something finales should NEVER DO.


“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#24762 James S Cassidy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:12 PM

If he cared, he would've never let the final chapter and the Last be like they where. We told you one hundred times it's NOT ABOUT SHIPPING. The ending and the movie contradict the overall history and transform characters beliefs and personalities, something finales should NEVER DO.

This all sounds extremely similar to every argument I ever had with a pro-ender.

In the end, pro-enders just boil it down to "Well, you're just mad cause your pairing didn't happen." Sounds familiar, Analyzer?

And in all this confusion, one question has still been not answered.

If it was all planned from the beginning...why did they need Naruto the Last in the first place to "explain it all?"


Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 August 2017 - 08:14 PM.

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#24763 T XD

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:28 PM

Some of these aren't true. He never said he decided NS early on, nor did he say SS was toxic. The last one is a misunderstanding, I.E., it would be shallow for Sakura to move from Naruto, a shallow sort of love, which wouldn't have helped her character.

It's not lying, it's possibly memory isn't 100% on, but he's still rather consistent, and he .. does care? This narrative of not caring is just silly.

No offense with what I'm going to say .

You need to be factual, not going in circles, and not putting your own projection into what's right and wrong in the manga.

I'm saying that cause you've shown to not fully know what and how consistency is, good writing, storytelling techniques of manga, and characters' consistency with their roles while being fairly stubborn with thinking that most of what's said is about shipping pairings.

- He said that about NS in two inetrviews. Look it up.  Also, one of them is mentioned above a few posts by chance.

- Yes, he said SS is toxic in an interview. Look it up or ask Bail to give it to you.

- Sakura moving on from Sasuke would've helped her character as it was seen in events throughout the manga that her character suffered from.

- The narrative you pointed out to was not a narrative. It was a mention of possibilities.


Edited by T XD, 09 August 2017 - 08:52 PM.


#24764 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:33 PM

@Analyzer, I simply can't, not because I want to refer or explain how the pairings affected this or that, there are several other problems (the circle of hatred plotline dropped and replaced by the curse of hatred, the stupid changing Sharingan's rules, the asspulls powers of Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi and Hinata), all of this things damage the history, but the pairings is a different thing overall.

Listen, is the last chapter of the series, the last moment we are gonna see our "protagonist" (and I use air quotes because his role kinda got overshadowed by Sasuke for most of Shippuden) and instead of finish it with the archivement of his dream (regardless who the hell he makes babies with or who their babies are).
We are treated with, "hey everyone's married here are all the "winner" couples and who their kids are, look forward to next paart!!!"
A finale is something that's suppoused to add closure and be the last stop of the hero's journey, but instead all we got was advertisement and kids, kids everywhere we didn't need to see.
Look Analyzer, it's impossible to make arguments on how this series got screwed over without including the pairings because,  they were the main focus of the series "ending" and also, as James once said, it was what they turned this finale into "pairings" nothing more, and nothing less.


Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 09 August 2017 - 08:34 PM.

“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#24765 James S Cassidy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:00 PM

@Analyzer, I simply can't, not because I want to refer or explain how the pairings affected this or that, there are several other problems (the circle of hatred plotline dropped and replaced by the curse of hatred, the stupid changing Sharingan's rules, the asspulls powers of Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi and Hinata), all of this things damage the history, but the pairings is a different thing overall.

Listen, is the last chapter of the series, the last moment we are gonna see our "protagonist" (and I use air quotes because his role kinda got overshadowed by Sasuke for most of Shippuden) and instead of finish it with the archivement of his dream (regardless who the hell he makes babies with or who their babies are).
We are treated with, "hey everyone's married here are all the "winner" couples and who their kids are, look forward to next paart!!!"
A finale is something that's suppoused to add closure and be the last stop of the hero's journey, but instead all we got was advertisement and kids, kids everywhere we didn't need to see.
Look Analyzer, it's impossible to make arguments on how this series got screwed over without including the pairings because,  they were the main focus of the series "ending" and also, as James once said, it was what they turned this finale into "pairings" nothing more, and nothing less.

I am just gonna add what I saw another Naruto fan say
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#24766 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:09 PM

Actually, I've been thinking about how vastly different the ending was from the beginning. And that if Kishi had it to do over again (and still chose the same ending) — like if he was able to retcon the whole series, starting with where he is now — would he even chose Naruto and Sakura to be the leads? Or would it be twin stories about Sasuke's struggle and Hinata's timidity, with Sakura and Naruto just being the secondary characters to fulfill their storylines?

 

If Kishi had it to do all over again, would he even set the story about Naruto and Sakura? Or would it straight up be about Sasuke and Hinata?

Let say this involves time travel and sending kishimoto straight to the past, because now a days I don't think he will want to redo Naruto all over again as much as he would just wish to leave. It depended on when he decided to do it all over again.

 

If he was sent back right before or after the ending he would probably have made Hinata the third teammate since she was so popular, and what apparently the fans wanted. Which I did a post about that sometime ago exploring the possibility. The main problem with this is it immediately breaks the narrative that Naruto was ever alone because the third most important character in the story would literally be his cheerleader from the beginning.

 

If he went after the last but before the Boruto movie. I imagine that he would try to improve both Sakura and Hinata, then let the fans decide which one ends up with who. This would be even worst since this expands the pairing conflict that really only heated up after the pein arc and to a boiling point in the war arc to throughout the entire story.

 

Now a days? He would probably just get rid of hinata because of all the hassle she cause. He can't get rid of Sakura since she is based off his wife, and she clearly liked that.

 

throughout all those i do see him general trying to improve the story and where he think he could have made it better, which includes that Naruto Sasuke rivalry.

That's one of the fault of changing the entire tone. It's like part 1 was easier to follow. I'm not saying it has to stay focus on Naruto forever. I'm saying the rest didn't feel like fun anymore. It's like we're stuck in serious arc without cracking jokes. It's different to say the least.

The chunin exam railroaded Kishimoto's manga. Once Sasuke got the curse seal, it was only a matter of time till he left the village. So then part 2 became Naruto chasing after Sasuke for the rest of the manga.

 

 

Yeah,  I've been busy but I never forgot about this place <3. I think I just needed a little bit of time to accept this terrible ending to a series I've been watching since I was...11 or 12? Yea. Might be younger than that tbh.  

 

 

Honestly, and this might be me personally, but like I said before actions speak much louder than words. To say that it's because he's emotionally/socially stunted is just an excuse to me. Know why? Look back at the Sasuke we got to know in part 1. He was all about getting stronger to avenge his clan...yet he almost died protecting a friend (Naruto). In other words, despite it being a part of Sasuke's character to be serious and focused on what he must do, he has shown that he can show how much he cares about the ones he loves when it comes time to do so, even if it means not accomplishing whatever goal he has in mind. Following from this, surely he would be able to tell and feel, as you say, that he's abandoning his family in the process of doing his mission and at least, AT LEAST, show that he's thinking about them in some way. The problem is...he hasn't. Because, unlike Naruto, Sakura and Salad are not a priority to him. He.just.doesn't.care.on.the.level.he's.supposed.to. I think that's the more accurate way to put it. I'm not trying to say if either of them were in danger he wouldn't help if he happened to be there or something like that. 

He was married to Sakura to make a daughter for nH's son to marry. Kishimoto doesn't like the parring in part on how he originally wrote the pairing -that it was incredibly negative and wasn't suppose to happen-, and in part because Sakura and Sasuke are based of his wife and brother.



#24767 Qia

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:17 PM

Actually even if ns had happened I still wouldn't like the ending if it was kept in the same way . There were certain things like what happened with orochimaru and taka, that left a bad taste in my mouth as well. Also was there really a need to pair almost every single person up. Jfc. And they all seem to have kids. Way too cheesy for me and kind of unrealistic since not everyone wants kids. I'm ignoring tenten here because we still don't know who rock Lee's wife is right? Also..I kinda wanted Sasuke to either die or just...not get away easily with the things he did.

Edited by Qia, 09 August 2017 - 09:18 PM.

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#24768 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:21 PM

It's great to time it perfectly with kids being same age.

#24769 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:23 PM

Like the old saying goes "It's about the journey, not the destination"
However Naruto's journey destination negates most of the actual journey:
-Naruto wanted to become Hokage, we don't see his ceremony in the manga, instead we see it in a one-shot that is merely comic relief about one of his kids.
-Naruto wanted to bring Sasuke back to the village so that team 7 could be whole again, instead Sasuke lefts in search of "redemption" something he could also archived if he stayed protecting the village which was one his home and that his brother gave his life and reputation to help.
-Naruto wanted to be with Sakura romantically, turns out Naruto never loved Sakura, instead she viewed her as a prize to win and never even knew what romantic love was (according to the Last, at least)
-Naruto wanted to honor his master's memory and fulfill his wish, the plotpoint gets dropped in favor of plotpoint two which, again, didn't get resolved.

I'd like to see pro-enders as team "destination" and anti-enders as "team-journey". If you truly cared about, the characters, their dreams, their battles and their lives of this series, you can't accept how things  turns out, everyone is way to different from who they were before.
However, if you are pro-ender you maybe liked it because some of your ships were made canon, some of your favorite characters are as you imagined who grew up to be, or something else, I don't know it doesn't matter to me personally.

@Analyzer listen, if you are okay with the current state of affairs of this series, fine by me, your opinion is yours.
But I asked of you to please refrain starting debates for no reason merely based on "I think your opinions are wrong" , I'm telling you politely, you will not be able to change anybodies mind here so I ask for you to stop with that, the bashing argument and the conspiracy theory one too.


Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 09 August 2017 - 09:42 PM.

“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#24770 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:25 PM

James those interviews that person used were the ones people stated were often mistranslated. The person outright said that they were ignoring interviews that were considered false by the general fanbase. The general fanbase is now pro ending nH fans, so any interview that contradicts the narrative of Hinata was always the heroine is clearly false. So they focused on the ones that were negative to Sakura and avoided the ones where kishimoto made either demeaning comments about Hinata or that she only became the love interest at this time or that.

 

I think you already know by now, but Kishimoto was contradictory regarding the establishment of pairings.

 

He said he decided early on for NH then in another interview he said from the middle. Another interview, he said he felt pity for Hinata. Another one where he said he decided NS early on. Another one where he said SS is toxic. Another one where he said he decided on NH cause he thought that it would look bad for Sakura to be with Naruto if she moved on from Sasuke.

These are what I remember for now.

 

As you see, either he's lying, doesn't remember what he said in each interview, or doesn't care.

All these from what I recall are true which is one of the reasons why the fans particularly the Japanese fans have left the fanbase. Since all the contradictory statements means Kishimoto is lying about something.

No offense with what I'm going to say .

You need to be factual, not going in circles, and not putting your own projection into what's right and wrong in the manga.

I'm saying that cause you've shown to not fully know what and how consistency is, good writing, storytelling techniques of manga, and characters' consistency with their roles while being fairly stubborn with thinking that most of what's said is about shipping pairings.

- He said that about NS in two inetrviews. Look it up.  Also, one of them is mentioned above a few posts by chance.

- Yes, he said SS is toxic in an interview. Look it up or ask Bail to give it to you.

- Sakura moving on from Sasuke would've helped her character as it was seen in events throughout the manga that her character suffered from.

- The narrative you pointed out to was not a narrative. It was a mention of possibilities.

I don't have the source for the SS pairing interview. We had a thread about it when it first came out over two years ago. It was the interview close to the opening of the Boruto movie. He had another one with his brother about the gaiden where he was actually trying with Salad to prove he wasn't sexist because he was upset about people claiming that he was once.

 

 

This is all speculation, there's zero evidence that Kishimoto thinks like this at all?

 

What if situations with the Author going to the past or re-doing the situation is just speculation.

 

Personally, no, I don't think he would do this. And no, Sarada was not made just for marriage.

Yes, clearly the word "probably" and "I would imagine" would imply a person was speculating. Brilliant deduction. Thank you for point that out.

 

Yes, SS happened because of pairing the spares and making a daughter for nh's son to marry. Kishimoto decided to add to her in the gaiden as well as turn into a ten chapter miniseries from it original one shot because he wanted to try to show he was not a sexist.



#24771 Qia

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:31 PM

About the whole wanting to see Narutos ceremony when becoming hokage. ..I didn't mind thathat not being in the end because the sole reason why he wanted to be come hokage was to receive acknowledgment from the people around him which we got to see after pein was defeated anyway

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#24772 James S Cassidy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:36 PM

James those interviews that person used were the ones people stated were often mistranslated. The person outright said that they were ignoring interviews that were considered false by the general fanbase. The general fanbase is now pro ending nH fans, so any interview that contradicts the narrative of Hinata was always the heroine is clearly false. So they focused on the ones that were negative to Sakura and avoided the ones where kishimoto made either demeaning comments about Hinata or that she only became the love interest at this time or that.

Like I said, it was only a fraction. It is not the whole interviews. There are plenty of more interviews and the like that go into further detail, but that requires extensive digging that I have no time for at the moment.

Also, always funny how everything is a "mistranslation." So if they know all of this is a "mistranslation" then what are the real translations? Everyone in the Naruto fandom is so quick to debunk, but are always slow in providing the REAL stuff.

If anything, Naruto is now one big cluster kitten of "mistranslated interpretational nonsense."
Nobody has the "real translations," nobody has the "real idea," nobody has anything. It is one big huge cluster kitten.

Might as well say this is all a Infinite Tsukuyomi.
 

 

 

About the whole wanting to see Narutos ceremony when becoming hokage. ..I didn't mind thathat not being in the end because the sole reason why he wanted to be come hokage was to receive acknowledgment from the people around him which we got to see after pein was defeated anyway

Maybe, but there was no need to turn something that everyone wanted to see into a laughing stock and a means to showcase Hinata's brats.

Nothing changes the fact that Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura....all they are, all they fought for, and everything they built up to be....was side-stepped for "Hinakittens and her obsessions." Naruto's couldn't even be officially be Hokage without Hinata hogging the spotlight. It is the most disgusting things ever and it is horrible.

"This is why we can't have nice things."
-Old ancient proverb

Why call the manga "Naruto" if it was never gonna be about him?


Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 August 2017 - 09:39 PM.

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#24773 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:36 PM

About the whole wanting to see Narutos ceremony when becoming hokage. ..I didn't mind thathat not being in the end because the sole reason why he wanted to be come hokage was to receive acknowledgment from the people around him which we got to see after pein was defeated anyway

Sorry I disagree, I still wanted to see him archiving his dream regardless(probably because he was my favorite character). Makes sense that just after that arc, the series started going downhill, huh?


“There are many types of monsters in this world, monsters who will not show themselves and who cause trouble. Monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood, and, monsters who always tell lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance, they are much more cunning than other monsters. They pose as humans, even though they have no understanding of the human heart. They eat, even though they've never experienced hunger. They study even though the have no interest in academics. They seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such a monster, I would likely be eaten by it, because in truth, I am that monster.”   -L. Lawliet

 

#24774 T XD

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:38 PM

 

1: Where? All interviews I found said -considered. Show me.

 

2: Show me.

 

3: Who Sakura ended up with is irrelevant to her character growth, because none of her development was angled that way.

 

4: As long as we understand it is only speculation. Frankly though, an author not caring about their work they invested years in is...far-fetched at best.

- One of the two is in the previous page. Have you read everything what was posted in the previous page ?

 

- Google it or search in the forums.

 

- Part of Sakura's character growth was significantly related to her attachment to Sasuke since Part 1. At least reread some of her parts during Part 1.

 

- As long as you reread what I said in my first post that I mentioned possibilities. No narrative nor speculation.


Edited by T XD, 09 August 2017 - 09:43 PM.


#24775 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:42 PM

Remind me to keep sources. I don't lie and I know these are facts.

#24776 LuckyChi7

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:44 PM

Well I think it's time to brighten up everyone's day: 

 

 

after_school_by_jirucchi-d5lrt8l.jpg

 

 

 

and now for a doujin :D

 

 

i_need_you_p1_by_celious.jpg

 

 

i_need_you_p2_by_celious.jpg

 

 

i_need_you_p3_by_celious.jpg


8ba875d573fdb80ef2985b4ae933e5df755cd797

 

 

WE'RE IN THIS TOGETHER YOU & ME!

 


#24777 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:47 PM

it's sad that I have a new PC and all of my bookmarks with sources are gone. I remember a Chinese article that supposedly bashes the Last. The comment section is all English and that got me laughing. I shouldn't but come on. Just ignore it.

#24778 Qia

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:03 PM

 

 

Maybe, but there was no need to turn something that everyone wanted to see into a laughing stock and a means to showcase Hinata's brats.

Nothing changes the fact that Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura....all they are, all they fought for, and everything they built up to be....was side-stepped for "Hinakittens and her obsessions." Naruto's couldn't even be officially be Hokage without Hinata hogging the spotlight. It is the most disgusting things ever and it is horrible.

"This is why we can't have nice things."
-Old ancient proverb

Why call the manga "Naruto" if it was never gonna be about him?

Harsh, but I agree. mainly when it comes to Sakura and the fact that, even though we were TOLD in the end about how strong she was...all we really got was her at home cleaning the house. That was definitely a slap in the face for me, especially since she's supposed to be the heroine of the manga whether it was planned as so at the very start or not. 

 

Man...I know Analyzer you keep saying that there;s nobody playing favorites in this...but when I compare Hinata's personal growth and Sakura's it's saddening to see. I know to you she's supposed to be all motherly and stuff but that's not all Sakura is. She's supposed to be, close to the endpoint of the manga, someone who can stand up for herself and the people she cares about even in the face of the person she loves. Yet we don't get that at all. We don't get her saying that "No, Sasuke you're wrong. I am not useless." Instead of just saying things that she's basically already said before. That she loves him and wishes that she could have helped him. It's the same old story. Same old Sakura sort of talking down herself and defining her worth through her inability to save Sasuke or get some kind of reaction out of him even at the end. Same old being knocked out by him.  :ermm: Pathetic. 


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#24779 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:21 PM

Just watched the latest episode. They really try to soften up that story.



#24780 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:23 PM

Like the old saying goes "It's about the journey, not the destination"
However Naruto's journey destination negates most of the actual journey:
-Naruto wanted to become Hokage, we don't see his ceremony in the manga, instead we see it in a one-shot that is merely comic relief about one of his kids.
-Naruto wanted to bring Sasuke back to the village so that team 7 could be whole again, instead Sasuke lefts in search of "redemption" something he could also archived if he stayed protecting the village which was one his home and that his brother gave his life and reputation to help.
-Naruto wanted to be with Sakura romantically, turns out Naruto never loved Sakura, instead she viewed her as a prize to win and never even knew what romantic love was (according to the Last, at least)
-Naruto wanted to honor his master's memory and fulfill his wish, the plotpoint gets dropped in favor of plotpoint two which, again, didn't get resolved.

I'd like to see pro-enders as team "destination" and anti-enders as "team-journey". If you truly cared about, the characters, their dreams, their battles and their lives of this series, you can't accept how things  turns out, everyone is way to different from who they were before.
However, if you are pro-ender you maybe liked it because some of your ships were made canon, some of your favorite characters are as you imagined who grew up to be, or something else, I don't know it doesn't matter to me personally.

@Analyzer listen, if you are okay with the current state of affairs of this series, fine by me, your opinion is yours.
But I asked of you to please refrain starting debates for no reason merely based on "I think your opinions are wrong" , I'm telling you politely, you will not be able to change anybodies mind here so I ask for you to stop with that, the bashing argument and the conspiracy theory one too.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the relationship between Naruto and Sakura was an element of the story independent of its status of a ship and thus warranted proper story resolution. It didn't get any and the Promie Of A Lifetime was swept under the rug without so much as a thank you from Sakura. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible storytelling. Just awful.


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Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!






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