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#24761 T XD

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:39 PM

 

What exactly am I saying that is not supported by the Manga? The Red Herring is backed up by the author's own words, so it's certainly a reference on what the interpretation is supposed to be.

 

The Lead up is there. It's a show not tell situation, the words aren't explicitly said, nor need to be. Taking it as a whole and what the Last tells us, it's not an invalid interpretation. 

What we were talking about all along ? Your claim that Naruto had a romantic development towards Hinata. A red herring doesn't consist of a heavy development like NS. A red herring is showing that a character have shown at least somewhere an interest towards another which none of that happened. What did the author say about red herring ? Link it to me.

 

It's a not tell situation and words aren't said : are your own projection concerning NH. Taking the manga as a whole, NH doesn't have a ground; As in Naruto's part doesn't tell, think or show having feelings towards Hinata, as in a reader doesn't see that he's beginning to see her in a romantic light.

If you've read other manga and watch other anime who have in part concerned with having a couple planned, there's nothing like NH cause it doesn't work with its context, consistency, two ways romance and the protagonist's stand on the case.



#24762 Analyzer

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 11:47 PM

What we were talking about all along ? Your claim that Naruto had a romantic development towards Hinata. A red herring doesn't consist of a heavy development like NS. A red herring is showing that a character have shown at least somewhere an interest towards another which none of that happened. What did the author say about red herring ? Link it to me.

 

It's a not tell situation and words aren't said : are your own projection concerning NH. Taking the manga as a whole, NH doesn't have a ground; As in Naruto's part doesn't tell, think or show having feelings towards Hinata, as in a reader doesn't see that he's beginning to see her in a romantic light.

If you've read other manga and watch other anime who have in part concerned with having a couple planned, there's nothing like NH cause it doesn't work with its context, consistency, two ways romance and the protagonist's stand on the case.

 

But NS doesn't have heavy development that implies they get together down the road, or enough to form a postulation for it. Everything post Fake confession is pretty much a Red Herring. It's a misleading clue, which Kishimoto usually shows is not a clue through humor, but not everyone sees that.

 

Read the 2014 Interview specifically, though the 2016/2017 interview is pretty much in line with it as well. I'm not familiar with the forum tools, but googling either one will give you that information, probably posted on the forum as well.

 

Anyway, NH is shown with intensity. You have it shown with Naruto's looks of admiration, which are really, the start of it. Then later, you have the Pain Arc, where it literally says that its Naruto's worst feelings he ever felt. But this line works, and this is the clue-in of love by the way, because of all the build/up interaction with Hinata in prior Arcs. The Last tells and shows us that Naruto did love Hinata, but did not realize that. The Book of the Last pretty much states this, the movie shows it.



#24763 T XD

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Posted Yesterday, 12:09 AM

 

But NS doesn't have heavy development that implies they get together down the road, or enough to form a postulation for it. Everything post Fake confession is pretty much a Red Herring. It's a misleading clue, which Kishimoto usually shows is not a clue through humor, but not everyone sees that.

 

Read the 2014 Interview specifically, though the 2016/2017 interview is pretty much in line with it as well. I'm not familiar with the forum tools, but googling either one will give you that information, probably posted on the forum as well.

 

Anyway, NH is shown with intensity. You have it shown with Naruto's looks of admiration, which are really, the start of it. Then later, you have the Pain Arc, where it literally says that its Naruto's worst feelings he ever felt. But this line works, and this is the clue-in of love by the way, because of all the build/up interaction with Hinata in prior Arcs. The Last tells and shows us that Naruto did love Hinata, but did not realize that. The Book of the Last pretty much states this, the movie shows it.

Your point of view of NS and Naruto's feelings for Hinata are not depicted in that way in the manga. You're still taking things outside of context, characters' roles/ what they said / how they were depicted, and Naruto's stand on the matter.

 

The 2014 interview said Neji was used for Naruto to acknowledge her and as a cupid. Not Naruto having feelings for her. One could argue a potential for NH in the future. It's till 700 and The Last was made for Naruto to start having feelings for her and make NH.


Edited by T XD, Yesterday, 12:15 AM.


#24764 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 01:14 AM

Your point of view of NS and Naruto's feelings for Hinata are not depicted in that way in the manga. You're still taking things outside of context, characters' roles/ what they said / how they were depicted, and Naruto's stand on the matter.

 

The 2014 interview said Neji was used for Naruto to acknowledge her and as a cupid. Not Naruto having feelings for her. One could argue a potential for NH in the future. It's till 700 and The Last was made for Naruto to start having feelings for her and make NH.

 

615 did give NH another moment within the Manga yes, but that is not Neji's sole reason of use, as discussed before by me.

 

Not understanding the first sentence either, because the Manga in its end, shows two people together, and NS not. The Manga concludes and fits my statement, really, the Last just hammers in a point that others might have missed: He did love her, but did not understand it.



#24765 T XD

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Posted Yesterday, 02:07 AM

I have reached the decision to end the debate cause we're going nowhere with this. Thank you for your time.



#24766 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted Yesterday, 02:29 AM

Kishimoto himself said Neji's death was done for NH hence chapter 615. It can't be speculated, it's now fact. Unless he lied but that's unnecessary. Well, that action was but you get my point. The sad thing is most of my argument is based on his own words, including infamous female characters writing.

#24767 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 04:16 AM

Kishimoto himself said Neji's death was done for NH hence chapter 615. It can't be speculated, it's now fact. Unless he lied but that's unnecessary. Well, that action was but you get my point. The sad thing is most of my argument is based on his own words, including infamous female characters writing.

 

Right, but he did not say that was the sole reason. It does push the pairing, in a sense of what happened in 614/615 to remind you "Hey, this is the plan", but that's not the sole purpose of the death. That's my point.



#24768 VanitasDS76491

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Posted Yesterday, 11:06 AM

I have reached the decision to end the debate cause we're going nowhere with this. Thank you for your time.


I'm more surprised we can still agure with this person. Plus their claims about the last are brought in too late in the story with that movie and nothing in that makes sense. Talk to analyzer is talking to brick wall.

#24769 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted Yesterday, 11:33 AM

 
Right, but he did not say that was the sole reason. It does push the pairing, in a sense of what happened in 614/615 to remind you "Hey, this is the plan", but that's not the sole purpose of the death. That's my point.

I tend to think it is. I mean it was a weird transition when Naruto got close to Madara and Obito, only to start over. It was suggesting that the next time we see them, it's going to be something crazy, but after series of flashback, it's back to the drawing board. Hell, the earlier mention don't even feel it happened. Granted that's one of the many problems of the arc, but the part is it don't feel anything rewarding. Tacked on if you may.

#24770 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 03:06 PM

I tend to think it is. I mean it was a weird transition when Naruto got close to Madara and Obito, only to start over. It was suggesting that the next time we see them, it's going to be something crazy, but after series of flashback, it's back to the drawing board. Hell, the earlier mention don't even feel it happened. Granted that's one of the many problems of the arc, but the part is it don't feel anything rewarding. Tacked on if you may.

 

Not really. The Alliance's attempt obviously failed, because Ten Tails wasn't at full power yet, and Kishimoto really wanted to show the devastation of it, and war. It turns into a fierce chess match, where the battle goes back and forth as each side strategies to gain the upper hand and victory over the other. No one really had died that wasn't old, not all of the K11 can survive everything. So yeah, a death amongst them worked well, and Neji was a good pick for it. So it works up build up, and shows it won't be that easy. 

 

Really, the War Arc's problem is pacing, it trucks to slow at really what came before the Alliance all coming to face Obito down, but before that you have all of these reincarnated people and Kabuto, multiple face-offs against Obito and Madara before as well, and the final battle with Obito then Madara, then Kaguya rages on for over a hundred chapters. If you liked action, you were pleased, but if you were more in it for plot, you'd notice the drudgery. A movie mind, and the anime if it avoided fillers, does this more justice, and for that medium, the pacing wouldn't be an issue. 


Edited by Analyzer, Yesterday, 03:12 PM.


#24771 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted Yesterday, 03:20 PM

It doesn't take away from Kishi's initial idea. One of the problems is that when we think he is doing something clever, he never reflects upon that; rather we are overthinking. Scene is clear for us to know what he is illustrating at times, but others seems like we are reaching and quite honestly, majority of the fan base is the victim of it. It's one of the major problem of his writing because we don't know where he was going at it in a bad way. There's change of path and twist. His twist is often convoluted despite how it can be predictable which is ironic. Itachi is the prime example. Obito felt like a reach with the idea that he somehow grew tall and obtain a deep voice in a year or less.

 

Pacing among them but there are a lot of problems that it feels like a bible at this point. The series essentially just become another action series with a mindless intention rather than being smart about it. It's like a summer film, now that there are two type of entertainment. Naruto falls under like Transformers more so than Fast series or Comic Book based. Have it ended at Obito only, the war wouldn't be that bad. And it's hard to excuse the rest of 100 chapters worth of absurdity.



#24772 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM

Kaguya personally, was a nice idea with imperfect execution. Obito only sounds okay, but this is an overhaul at hand, so hard to predict how it would have turned out, but it would have helped with pacing.

Overthinking is entirely a reader's fault, and of no blame of an authors.

#24773 Phantom_999

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Posted Yesterday, 06:34 PM

You know what's ironic about saying that? :mellow: You may well be over analyzing things yourself. you take what is written and shown to us in the story and put up your own interpretations to it. You say that Naruto was hinted to reciprocate Hinata's feelings in the manga when there was no indication of it in his inner monologues or his actions. You say that Sakura's interactions with Naruto are only platonic, when she displayed no such affectionate behaviour to any other male character except Sasuke who actively scorned her. You say that Hinata is not all about Naruto when her inner monologues are full of Naruto-kun this, Naruto-kun that, or about how she wants to be like Naruto and wants to show her worth TO HIM, and no one else. you say that Sasuke and Sakura are not in an abusive relationship when 1) Sasuke did not ever care about her self esteem issues and rarely if ever offered positive encouragement towards her, 2) nothing indicates that their relationship is a healthy and meaningful one, as even the comedy moments between them are just PLAIN SAD, and 3) F.Y.I. leaving for a decade and not even bothering to contact your spouse or child nor even let them know where you are or how you're doing is considered neglect and neglect is considered form of abuse too. 


Edited by Phantom_999, Yesterday, 06:36 PM.

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#24774 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 07:12 PM

You know what's ironic about saying that? :mellow: You may well be over analyzing things yourself. you take what is written and shown to us in the story and put up your own interpretations to it. You say that Naruto was hinted to reciprocate Hinata's feelings in the manga when there was no indication of it in his inner monologues or his actions. You say that Sakura's interactions with Naruto are only platonic, when she displayed no such affectionate behaviour to any other male character except Sasuke who actively scorned her. You say that Hinata is not all about Naruto when her inner monologues are full of Naruto-kun this, Naruto-kun that, or about how she wants to be like Naruto and wants to show her worth TO HIM, and no one else. you say that Sasuke and Sakura are not in an abusive relationship when 1) Sasuke did not ever care about her self esteem issues and rarely if ever offered positive encouragement towards her, 2) nothing indicates that their relationship is a healthy and meaningful one, as even the comedy moments between them are just PLAIN SAD, and 3) F.Y.I. leaving for a decade and not even bothering to contact your spouse or child nor even let them know where you are or how you're doing is considered neglect and neglect is considered form of abuse too. 

 

This is all, in varying degrees, a flawed analysis, and we'll punch each out one by one here:

 

1: Naruto was not shown to reciprocate Hinata's feelings. What do you mean? There was growing love, but there was no reciprocation as in forming a relationship. True romance didn't happen until the Last for this pair. But as things show us, which goes in line with what's in the Manga, Naruto didn't understand his own feelings as love.

 

2: This actually isn't quite true either, as when she is in a caregiving role, she does attempt to assist (Lee is an early example). She does care for Naruto, the relationship is unique, just understand that it is platonic.When in I must break all bonds sort of place, Sasuke scorns everyone, by the way, and certainly stops this in 698/699.

 

3: Hinata is still not all about Naruto, she is shown to care for other people and things. She is a supporting character to Naruto, which isn't a negative thing, so not sure if we're criticizing her because she's a support character that isn't main, or other reasons.

 

4: Breaking down to A/B/C:

A: Still not how abusive relationship works by the way, but self-esteem is a personal thing, Sasuke, and Naruto, actually pushed for Sakura to try to keep up with them, with their own streaking ahead in their abilities and desires. So...what foundation is this from?

B: Their relationship improves. It's still not abusive?

C: Sasuke isn't a great father, we can say this. But he is tasked with something important, and no, neglect in this particular case is not necessarily abusive.

 

Regards, 



#24775 Yyubie

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Posted Yesterday, 07:13 PM

Incorrect!! , False!! , I disagree!!. So far that is pretty much the only thing this person do , disagreeing with everyone , busy trying to correct everyone's opinion , busy defending the ending the last boruto and it's anime saying how good it is. Whenever someone express their opinion this person try to correct it ... why the need and the persistent??

 

It's just like for example there are 2 religion , religion A and religion B. I'm in religion A and i come to religion B society and tell them all "Hey your religion is fake and false , your god never exist and your way of teaching is wrong , you should all abandon religion B and join religion A just like me".


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#24776 The Doctor forever

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Posted Yesterday, 07:55 PM

Incorrect!! , False!! , I disagree!!. So far that is pretty much the only thing this person do , disagreeing with everyone , busy trying to correct everyone's opinion , busy defending the ending the last boruto and it's anime saying how good it is. Whenever someone express their opinion this person try to correct it ... why the need and the persistent??

 

It's just like for example there are 2 religion , religion A and religion B. I'm in religion A and i come to religion B society and tell them all "Hey your religion is fake and false , your god never exist and your way of teaching is wrong , you should all abandon religion B and join religion A just like me".

Because we ARE WRONG, that is how I am seeing it no matter what we say I mean if I said that what Hinata did in the whole Pain attack was stupid and dumb.

 

She would say I am wrong that this was all planned to show the readers that out of all of Konoha Hinata deeply loves Naruto hence why she is the only one to do anything while the others watch this shows the readers the love Hinata has for Naruto and that Naruto will see this and love her.

 

I can see why Evil100 left so has ultranx as well, soon all of us will be gone and in that way she will have won, its sad but I can see it, I can see this forum slowly dying off.

 

Say like I did a review on The Last like the nostalgia critic would do, she would say how wrong it is and how this is Naruto got with Hinata, again if it was done in the manga there would be no need for the Last at all, or something alone the lines did you watch the film.



#24777 Analyzer

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Posted Yesterday, 08:03 PM

Incorrect!! , False!! , I disagree!!. So far that is pretty much the only thing this person do , disagreeing with everyone , busy trying to correct everyone's opinion , busy defending the ending the last boruto and it's anime saying how good it is. Whenever someone express their opinion this person try to correct it ... why the need and the persistent??

 

It's just like for example there are 2 religion , religion A and religion B. I'm in religion A and i come to religion B society and tell them all "Hey your religion is fake and false , your god never exist and your way of teaching is wrong , you should all abandon religion B and join religion A just like me".

False. :) 

 

Snark done, I did want to elaborate on a point of SS made above, that a few people touch on but go the wrong way with it.

 

So largely, we see that Sasuke is largely absent in part 2. As we know, saving Sasuke is part of Sakura's desire, but it's overshadowed by Naruto, so her role is triviliazed, which is why Sakura doesn't participate in the final battle, with Naruto overshadowing her.  Then the focus on the Uchiha (Which kind of drags down the plot, as people note), doesn't play a part with Sakura either, instead furthering Sasuke's story. Nor does she have flashy or overly useful powers, alnd her abilities are used by Tsunade. And her intelligence is overshadowed by Shikamaru. Really, one fun and interesting fix for Sakura here, is to actually have her go with Sasuke after he kills Danzo, or even go with Sasuke earlier on. It gets her out of Naruto's shadow, and allows her to walk with Sasuke and try to do this caring/light sort of person with his darkness. (Obviously, if you were doing a NS re-write, I would not do the second idea). Sakura also could use some flashy power beyond her current set. 

 

This is actually one of Kishimoto's great flaws in the manga, a legitimate and fair one to point out: Sakura isn't relevant enough. Sakura hurts in relevance mainly because she's constantly overshadowed. Largely, the only real goal that isn't overshadowed by Sakura, is keeping up with her peers, which she does, but it's a bit harmed by these other overshadowing. There is this seeming struggle in how to keep Sakura relevant that's noticeable in the Manga. He gets there for a brief moment in Part 2, but never fully resolve this issue. 

 

Lastly, I see Evil constantly liking posts. They may not be posting, but they have hardly left the forums. 


Edited by Analyzer, Yesterday, 08:08 PM.


#24778 The Doctor forever

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Posted Yesterday, 08:16 PM

Lastly, I see Evil constantly liking posts. They may not be posting, but they have hardly left the forums. 

Because he gets PM's from people and he just comes back to answer and see what is going on, but make no mistake he is gone now.







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