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#421 DrK

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:57 PM

Naruto is arguably just as selfish as he started the manga as, and I've even seen people say he only has empathy when he sees himself reflected in his foes.

Everyone became selfish. Sakura selfishly continued to pursue Sasuke without caring how Naruto or even Sasuke felt about it. Sasuke decided to accept Sakura's servitude without caring how Sakura or Naruto might be affected by it. But yes, Naruto is the worst of all. He selfishly pushed Sakura towards Sasuke without even caring about how it would affect Sakura to keep chasing after a murderer. Sakura wanted a safe port in a storm which was Naruto. Sasuke did nothing but hurt her and Sakura acknowledged this. She wanted to be with Naruto and leave whatever childish feelings she had for Sasuke in the past. Naruto won't accept this. He has to get Sasuke under his control and the idea of abandoning him is something he finds repulsive.

 

Sasuke was on a quest to kill Itachi in hopes of eventually coming to terms with what happened to his family. Just let him do it. If you have to fight him at some point then so be it. Why do you want to control his life? It's something Sasuke feels that he has to do. Who are you to stop him? How is it worth poisoning your relationship with Sakura just to manipulate her into continuing to chase after Sasuke? She wasn't much help anyways.

 

Sakura nearly got killed IMMEDIATELY because of this deranged and selfish decision.

 

Her decision tree was:

                                                                                       If he accepts, go back to Konoha with Naruto. Don't try to kill Sasuke.

Confess to Naruto to get him to stop chasing Sasuke. /

                                                                                      \ If he declines, try to kill Sasuke.

 

She would not have tried to kill Sasuke if Naruto had been reasonable. If she just had to kill Sasuke because she loved him, why was it that she would have taken Naruto back to the village and as a result, not try to kill Sasuke? It's clear that once again, her care for Naruto won out over this supposed great love for Sasuke. But did Naruto give a damn? No.


Edited by DrK, 21 December 2017 - 12:16 AM.


#422 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:15 AM

It also continues the trend of people just being completely unwilling to let go of the past and move on, letting it constantly influence their actions and choices in the present, which usually ends up having negative effects in the future.

Sakura was finally willing to let go of Sasuke and move on to Naruto based on the reality of things, showing her general trend, up to that point anyway, of growing up and maturing, but Naruto, being the naive, still immature idiot he CHOSE and STILL CHOOSES to be, just can't and refuses to understand this change since, initially, both he and Sakura were under the naive impression that they could simply bring Sasuke back and then everything would go right back to how they were before he left; restoring the status quo basically (which they both succeed at doing, sadly). It's almost like he believes that if HE HIMSELF is not the one to induce the change in a person in some way, then it MUST be fake or a lie.

 

It also goes to my point of how Naruto didn't love himself enough to believe in Sakura's feelings for him.



#423 DrK

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 03:04 AM

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#424 RulesofNature

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 03:26 AM

 

It also goes to my point of how Naruto didn't love himself enough to believe in Sakura's feelings for him.

 

This would be a very interesting thing to explore. Naruto spent his entire childhood struggling to gain acknowledgement from those around him but in the end he can't even acknowledge himself. He didn't feel himself worthy of Sakura-chan's love, so he rationalized it as a trick. He pushed her away and after learning of Hinata's feelings for him, pushed himself into a relationship with her. But that self-loathing is still there, that little voice in the back of his head telling him he wasn't good enough for the girl he really loved and settled. He tries to keep it together for the children, but the situation is too much. He can't stand himself for lying to himself, he has issues bringing children into the world through this marriage and even feels guilty over manipulating Hinata into thinking he loved her. It's why he throws himself into his job once he becomes Hokage, leading to a deteriorating situation at home. This could also factor into his relationship with Sarada, as she is the child of the woman he loved rather than those of the person he hates the most.

 

Granted, SP will never in a million years do this but it makes good fanfic fuel.


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#425 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:46 AM

 

It's pretty much a case of how Naruto is intended to be written coming into conflict with how he is actually written. He's supposed to grow into this compassion, empathetic character that other ninjas gather around. He can connect with his enemies and even help lead them out of the darkness, like Luke did for Vader or the "you're stronger than you think you are" scene from All Star Superman. He's supposed to go from the boy who wanted to be Hokage for the respect and recognition to a caring, selfless individual.

 

Then you get Naruto flipping out because people want Sasuke dead for all the things he's done. You get the revelation that his attraction to Sakura was just him trying to one-up Sasuke, something Sakura thought before she got to know him in a scene that painted her as a massive kitten in the eyes of the fandom. Naruto wanted Sasuke back because of his own desires. Even NaruHina fans repaint the situation of the Uzumaki home with Naruto looking at the troublemaker Boruto with an expression that says "that's my boy" rather than angrily yelling at him while telling him to endure his loneliness. Naruto is arguably just as selfish as he started the manga as, and I've even seen people say he only has empathy when he sees himself reflected in his foes. He doesn't put himself into other people's shoes, he only sees someone who has the same shoes as he does.

Yeah, Naruto should have gone through something akin to Peter in Spider-Man: Homecoming, when Peter, in his overzealous drive to prove himself to Tony and earn a spot on the Avengers, he not only ends up screwing up an undercover sting set up by Tony to catch Toomes and his crew (which ended up showing a lack of faith in others), but almost gets everyone else on that ship killed too, and then, to top it all off, ends up saying how he's nothing without his suit, which leads to one of my favorite Tony quotes, "If you think you're nothing without the suit, then you shouldn't be wearing it", leading to Peter having to learn that it was always his own strength and will that made him strong, allowing him to confront and defeat Toomes, and even earning a spot on the Avengers like he wanted, only to, thanks to his own maturation, turn it down and opt to gain more experience "closer to the ground" first.

You could easily replace Peter with Naruto, and the Spider-Man suit with his position as Hokage and/or Kurama and his chakra, and make things more interesting, where Naruto could, once again, have to learn to win with his own power, like how he started to with his elemental training after the four-tailed incident and not rely on a "suit" (position / Kurama cloak).

And that was most likely me who brought up Naruto's "empathy" only towards others who were like bad foils of himself as I've brought it up several times here recently, lol. I mean, you notice that almost every antagonist or cynical person he tries hard to change with Talk no Jutsu is someone that Naruto could have potentially become if the circumstances weren't slightly different, but when it comes to virtually anyone else who isn't relatable to him on such a personal level, whether it was the main story (Madara, Kabuto, Orochimaru, etc.), anime original fillers (Raiga, for example), or (non-canon) movies (Koyuki, Toneri, etc.), Naruto doesn't try anywhere near as hard to change / help them.

The Raiga example, out of examples off the top of my head anyway, really stands out because that anime original filler also blatantly showed overlapping parallels between him and Ranmaru with Zabuza and Haku, complete with numerous flashbacks, and yet where Naruto poured out his heart and caused Zabuza to cry and admit how much he truly cared about Haku rather than try to kill Zabuza, Naruto didn't seem to have any qualms about just beating Raiga down, leading to Raiga's death by suicide with his own swords and freeing Ranmaru from him, showing that SP just completely ignored Naruto's empathetic nature and focused only on him seeming to be more about failing to save Haku, probably as a connection to failing to "save" Sasuke, which was reading things completely incorrectly..

 

Everyone became selfish. Sakura selfishly continued to pursue Sasuke without caring how Naruto or even Sasuke felt about it. Sasuke decided to accept Sakura's servitude without caring how Sakura or Naruto might be affected by it. But yes, Naruto is the worst of all. He selfishly pushed Sakura towards Sasuke without even caring about how it would affect Sakura to keep chasing after a murderer. Sakura wanted a safe port in a storm which was Naruto. Sasuke did nothing but hurt her and Sakura acknowledged this. She wanted to be with Naruto and leave whatever childish feelings she had for Sasuke in the past. Naruto won't accept this. He has to get Sasuke under his control and the idea of abandoning him is something he finds repulsive.

 

Sasuke was on a quest to kill Itachi in hopes of eventually coming to terms with what happened to his family. Just let him do it. If you have to fight him at some point then so be it. Why do you want to control his life? It's something Sasuke feels that he has to do. Who are you to stop him? How is it worth poisoning your relationship with Sakura just to manipulate her into continuing to chase after Sasuke? She wasn't much help anyways.

 

Sakura nearly got killed IMMEDIATELY because of this deranged and selfish decision.

 

Her decision tree was:

                                                                                       If he accepts, go back to Konoha with Naruto. Don't try to kill Sasuke.

Confess to Naruto to get him to stop chasing Sasuke. /

                                                                                      \ If he declines, try to kill Sasuke.

 

She would not have tried to kill Sasuke if Naruto had been reasonable. If she just had to kill Sasuke because she loved him, why was it that she would have taken Naruto back to the village and as a result, not try to kill Sasuke? It's clear that once again, her care for Naruto won out over this supposed great love for Sasuke. But did Naruto give a damn? No.

And as I brought up before, Naruto (and others) show their hypocrisy when they seem to have no problem with Team 10, Shikamaru especially, seeking revenge on Kakuzu and Hidan for Asuma's death, and even actively assisting them in seeking them out and fighting them. And then you got Shikamaru being a hypocrite (again) when he talks about the cycle of revenge that would happen if Kumo were to hunt down and kill Sasuke. (Most of the rookies would want revenge on them for killing Sasuke, then Kumo would want revenge for them killing their shinobi, etc.)

What makes it worse is that, while not to say Asuma's death means nothing at all, it was NOTHING COMPARED to what Sasuke had lost. Asuma was a grown man, actively in the field, with a large bounty on his head, and in a profession where they are (or should have been) taught to EXPECT a good possibility of death, and was able to fight back and simply lost. The Uchiha Clan, while they may have been plotting the coup, had not yet been doing anything when Itachi (and "Madara") had begun slaughtering them; basically ambushing them, killing them in their homes and a number of them most likely in their beds, in their sleep, where they had NO chance of fighting back or at least defending themselves, and on top of that, you had Sasuke's mind screwed with by Itachi, who mocked him on top of showing the murder of their parents over and over again.

Yet, it's Sasuke's thirst for revenge that most felt needed to be tamped down whereas Shikamaru's thirst for revenge (to which he was even willing to defy direct orders not to pursue Kakuzu and Hidan, which, in the military dictatorship that makes up the shinobi world, could easily amount to sedition, if not treason) was just fine for most of those same people.


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#426 DrK

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:44 AM

And as I brought up before, Naruto (and others) show their hypocrisy when they seem to have no problem with Team 10, Shikamaru especially, seeking revenge on Kakuzu and Hidan for Asuma's death, and even actively assisting them in seeking them out and fighting them. And then you got Shikamaru being a hypocrite (again) when he talks about the cycle of revenge that would happen if Kumo were to hunt down and kill Sasuke. (Most of the rookies would want revenge on them for killing Sasuke, then Kumo would want revenge for them killing their shinobi, etc.)

 

Shikamaru just says that Sakura and Ino would want revenge. But I feel like Kishi wasn't thinking at all when he wrote that. The one who would have been angry was Naruto, but his hands would be tied because of his inability to actually kill anyone. And if Naruto hadn't alienated Sakura for no reason, she would obviously have moved on prior to Sasuke being killed. So then it's just Ino. I kinda doubt that Konoha will start a war over the tears of Ino. Even if it's all 3 of them, that's still only 3 people. No one else would be an issue.


Edited by DrK, 21 December 2017 - 04:32 PM.


#427 James S Cassidy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:58 PM

And I will sya it all again...."All because Naruto and Hinata was forced to be put together." Because Kishimoto couldn't make the decision on his own and was told to "keep pushing it" to the end.

If it was me, if it truly was me and they wanted me to put NH together because they would make a movie about it....I would have made Naruto and Sakura canon and said "What now, b*****s?" Then laugh as they either have to change the movie entirely, make it non-canon, or some how had to save face.

I mean, really, it is my story and my canon, so why would I need to follow what everyone else says?


Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 December 2017 - 10:59 PM.

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#428 Gravenimage

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:40 PM

And I will sya it all again...."All because Naruto and Hinata was forced to be put together." Because Kishimoto couldn't make the decision on his own and was told to "keep pushing it" to the end.

If it was me, if it truly was me and they wanted me to put NH together because they would make a movie about it....I would have made Naruto and Sakura canon and said "What now, b*****s?" Then laugh as they either have to change the movie entirely, make it non-canon, or some how had to save face.

I mean, really, it is my story and my canon, so why would I need to follow what everyone else says?

 

Because he lack balls and he did said he was in for the money. 


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#429 DrK

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:10 AM

Kishimoto betrayed Sakura. A young girl who was idealistic and cared about her friends turned into an obsessed psycho groupie. And he based the character on his wife for crying out loud. It's appalling.

 

It makes no sense to me that he would put this much effort into the romance subplot and then just allow other people to destroy it.


Edited by DrK, 23 December 2017 - 12:45 AM.


#430 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:37 AM

And I will sya it all again...."All because Naruto and Hinata was forced to be put together." Because Kishimoto couldn't make the decision on his own and was told to "keep pushing it" to the end.

If it was me, if it truly was me and they wanted me to put NH together because they would make a movie about it....I would have made Naruto and Sakura canon and said "What now, b*****s?" Then laugh as they either have to change the movie entirely, make it non-canon, or some how had to save face.

I mean, really, it is my story and my canon, so why would I need to follow what everyone else says?

Yep, he had all the cards. Anything SP could try to threaten him with would be bluffs. They couldn't fire him because of Naruto being their cash cow at the time and fans would backlash enormously. Same with threatening to no longer publish Naruto; people would have just followed Kishi to wherever he went to keep reading, and so on. Instead of using those cards, though, he simply folded.


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#431 Yyubie

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

Everyone became selfish. Sakura selfishly continued to pursue Sasuke without caring how Naruto or even Sasuke felt about it. Sasuke decided to accept Sakura's servitude without caring how Sakura or Naruto might be affected by it. But yes, Naruto is the worst of all. He selfishly pushed Sakura towards Sasuke without even caring about how it would affect Sakura to keep chasing after a murderer. Sakura wanted a safe port in a storm which was Naruto. Sasuke did nothing but hurt her and Sakura acknowledged this. She wanted to be with Naruto and leave whatever childish feelings she had for Sasuke in the past. Naruto won't accept this. He has to get Sasuke under his control and the idea of abandoning him is something he finds repulsive.

 

Sasuke was on a quest to kill Itachi in hopes of eventually coming to terms with what happened to his family. Just let him do it. If you have to fight him at some point then so be it. Why do you want to control his life? It's something Sasuke feels that he has to do. Who are you to stop him? How is it worth poisoning your relationship with Sakura just to manipulate her into continuing to chase after Sasuke? She wasn't much help anyways.

 

Sakura nearly got killed IMMEDIATELY because of this deranged and selfish decision.

 

Her decision tree was:

                                                                                       If he accepts, go back to Konoha with Naruto. Don't try to kill Sasuke.

Confess to Naruto to get him to stop chasing Sasuke. /

                                                                                      \ If he declines, try to kill Sasuke.

 

She would not have tried to kill Sasuke if Naruto had been reasonable. If she just had to kill Sasuke because she loved him, why was it that she would have taken Naruto back to the village and as a result, not try to kill Sasuke? It's clear that once again, her care for Naruto won out over this supposed great love for Sasuke. But did Naruto give a damn? No.

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What's the the different here , Naruto and Sakura is also forcefully shove their will to Sasuke's throat , want to bring him back , because they both wants to be acknowledge by hm , Sakura wants her love to be accepted by him , and few other reason. It's not like Sasuke got kidnap or brainwash/mind control , he choose that path with his own free will and as a friend you should honor and respect that decision , grow up!! you can't stay kid forever , team 7 sooner or latter gonna break nothing is eternal , sadly Naruto and Sakura are in their little own world of denial that team 7 must always go back to those happy times together when they were kids. Irony , so what Naruto trying to say here is , Sasuke is not belongs to you , because he is MINE!!.


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#432 DrK

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:47 AM

 he choose that path with his own free will and as a friend you should honor and respect that decision , grow up!! you can't stay kid forever , team 7 sooner or latter gonna break nothing is eternal

Yeah, sometimes people have things they need to do on their own that don't involve you. You can't make someone into something they're not. Sasuke is not the kind of person they want him to be and he never will be. Though Sakura realized this to some extent, Naruto never did. And they're both miserable now because they illogically put him above everything else. If Naruto didn't get beaten up and humiliate himself, and Sakura didn't humiliate herself and later marry him, Sasuke would still be the same person doing the same things. He would still feel the exact same way about them. They accomplished nothing. It's pathetic and trying to paint it as a good thing is sick. It sends a horrible message.

 

Though you can say they absolutely deserve it. If Naruto cared more about Sasuke than Sakura after everything that happened, then kitten him. He can have his life as a self-loathing dictator. Same if Sakura cared more about Sasuke than Naruto. Grow up. He was never into you and you knew that.

 

The whole issue about Sasuke's feelings is something that every character as well as pro ending fan just tiptoes around. They think he can be moved. He can't. He had a brotherly bond with Naruto and cared about Sakura as a comrade, but that is based on things that happened long ago and cannot be changed. They cannot be strengthened by their sacrifices on his behalf because it's not like that. He would feel the same even if they both killed him at the end. Instead they "kill" themselves, in that the characters they were cease to be, while Sasuke remains the same. Disgusting.



#433 Phantom_999

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:59 AM

Yup, Sasuke is not Naruto's and Sakura's friend, he is their toy. Their man doll :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 23 December 2017 - 06:27 PM.

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#434 FireFox

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 03:06 PM

Yup, Sasuke is not Naruto's and Sakura's friend, he is their toy. their man doll :zaru:

 

I'll never understand why Naruto and Sakura were made to be so obsessed with Sasuke and I never liked the dysfunctional "dynamic" of T7 from the beginning, it never really did made any sense more so bc it was always revolved around Sasuke, and I always asked myself this question "What did Sasuke really do to deserve this obsessed devotion from Naruto & Sakura!?"  The answer is pretty simple he did absolutely nothing except belittle them both (for Sakura it was even worse) and their whole obsession with him and their "bond" as a team is based on shallow reasons, just bc Sasuke was the genius prince charming with a pedigree and everybody freaking loved him! Naruto made him his rival and Sakura made him her "love" trophy (she even turned her back to her bff Ino bc of it, who was the first person to accept her for who she is) bc they both wanted someone to acknowledge them in order to validate themselves. No matter how you spin it their "bond" was never really developed beyond the one of being toxic to them, and in the end they were both destroyed bc of it, they never did really grown up and any character development they had was completely striped off, they were reverted back to an even more miserable versions then their childhood ones. I loved Naruto and Sakura bc they were so similar to each other yet different and they shined the best especially when Sasuke wasn't around they were their true selves and they weren't afraid of it.

 

But no one was immune to Sasuke and his holiness, even Sai was shoehorned as nothing but Sasuke's replacement and he was a better friend and a team member to both Naruto and Sakura and most importantly they functioned so much better as a team they dynamic was great if not perfect. The same thing could be said about Taka who accepted Sasuke for who he really was and understood him the best they never forced him for anything, their bond was twisted but it worked on some twisted level, though later on he destroyed that too and they were given the boot too in the end especially Karin. 

 

This is why I say the best way to describe Sasuke is CANCER nothing more nothing less.   


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#435 James S Cassidy

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:53 PM

Yep, he had all the cards. Anything SP could try to threaten him with would be bluffs. They couldn't fire him because of Naruto being their cash cow at the time and fans would backlash enormously. Same with threatening to no longer publish Naruto; people would have just followed Kishi to wherever he went to keep reading, and so on. Instead of using those cards, though, he simply folded.

I mean, Toriyama put Vegeta and Bulma together because he got tired of being asked about pairings and just threw them together on a whim...and people loved it. They loved the fact that Vegeta and Bulma were together because it made Vegeta grow up as a character and it made him have something to further his race.
 

 

 

I'll never understand why Naruto and Sakura were made to be so obsessed with Sasuke and I never liked the dysfunctional "dynamic" of T7 from the beginning, it never really did made any sense more so bc it was always revolved around Sasuke, and I always asked myself this question "What did Sasuke really do to deserve this obsessed devotion from Naruto & Sakura!?"  The answer is pretty simple he did absolutely nothing except belittle them both (for Sakura it was even worse) and their whole obsession with him and their "bond" as a team is based on shallow reasons, just bc Sasuke was the genius prince charming with a pedigree and everybody freaking loved him! Naruto made him his rival and Sakura made him her "love" trophy (she even turned her back to her bff Ino bc of it, who was the first person to accept her for who she is) bc they both wanted someone to acknowledge them in order to validate themselves. No matter how you spin it their "bond" was never really developed beyond the one of being toxic to them, and in the end they were both destroyed bc of it, they never did really grown up and any character development they had was completely striped off, they were reverted back to an even more miserable versions then their childhood ones. I loved Naruto and Sakura bc they were so similar to each other yet different and they shined the best especially when Sasuke wasn't around they were their true selves and they weren't afraid of it.

 

But no one was immune to Sasuke and his holiness, even Sai was shoehorned as nothing but Sasuke's replacement and he was a better friend and a team member to both Naruto and Sakura and most importantly they functioned so much better as a team they dynamic was great if not perfect. The same thing could be said about Taka who accepted Sasuke for who he really was and understood him the best they never forced him for anything, their bond was twisted but it worked on some twisted level, though later on he destroyed that too and they were given the boot too in the end especially Karin. 

 

This is why I say the best way to describe Sasuke is CANCER nothing more nothing less.   

I mentioned that I always hated Sasuke and the dynamic with the series because the two main characters focused on him. It was basically obsession because Naruto was even willing to give up his whole life, his friends, and the entire village for Sasuke. Like, this is the hero we got? Well, he will protect us and save the day, but if it came between a choice of Sasuke or the village, he chose Sasuke every time without thought. If anyone talked about Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone mentioned Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone told a truth about Sasuke, he denied it, hated them, and called them liars. This dude hypervantilated and passed out because someone said "[They] plan on killing Sasuke." Jesus, why not just marry Sasuke if you intend to be that obsessive over him. Even Death Battle poked at the joke in the Naruto vs Ichigo fight calling Sasuke Naruto's boyfriend.

It is insane just how far Kishimoto pushed the "Sasuke is important to Naruto" gimmick. I mean, really why? Why was Sasuke so important? With Sasuke being gone for three years and Naruto not seeing him for most of it, he was doing pretty well. It is even more funny that after Sasuke is "no longer evil" Naruto was living a life despite him not being in the village for over 15 years. So when Sasuke was "Evil" Naruto said he needed him to come back and not be evil, but if Sasuke is good and not in the village, then Naruto doesn't care. Why all of a sudden Naruto doesn't mind Sasuke not in the village? What is the real difference between now and back then? It can't be because Sasuke was evil back then and that makes the diffference because Naruto got mad and was confused when people said "Sasuke is evil" Wasn't that whole point of bringing Sasuke back to the village? Why is Naruto so inconsistent when it comes to Sasuke where one minute he cares so much about Sasuke that nothing else matters if he is not in the village and now it doesn't matter if he is in the village or not?

It's a really weird plot.
 

"Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you"

This may be a translation error I guess, but this line sounds really disturbing. It reminds me of a similar line said by kitten Hinata in RTN when Sakura was cuddling up to Menma. Not that it is a bad thing, but this really hints at Homosexual undertones. This is something a jealous girlfriend might say to another girl.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 December 2017 - 06:50 PM.

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#436 FireFox

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:40 PM

I mentioned that I always hated Sasuke and the dynamic with the series because the two main character focused on him. It was basically obsession because Naruto was even willing to give up his whole life, his friends, and the entire village for Sasuke. Like, this is the hero we got? Well, he will protect us and save te day, but if it came between a choice of Sasuke or the village, he chose Sasuke every time without thought. If anyone talked about Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone mentioned Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone told a truth about Sasuke, he denied it, hated them, and called them liars. This dude hypervantilated and passed out because someone said "They plan on killing Sasuke." Jesus, why not just marry Sasuke if you intende to be that obsessive over him. Even Death Battle poked at the joke in the Naruto vs Ichigo fight called Sasuke Naruto's boyfriend.

It is insane just how far Kishimoto pushed the "Sasuke is important to Naruto" gimmick. I mean, really why? Why was Sasuke so important? With Sasuke being gone for three years and Naruto not seeing him for most of it, he was doing pretty well. It is even more funny that after Sasuke is "no longer evil" Naruto was living a life despite him not being in the village for over 15 years. So when Sasuke was "Evil" Naruto said he needed to come back and not be evil, but if Sasuke is good and not in the village, then Naruto doesn't care. Why all of a sudden Naruto doesn't mind Sasuke not in the village? What is the real difference between now and back then? IIt can;t be because Sasuke was evil back then and that makes the diffference because Naruto got made and was confused when people said "Sasuke is evil" Wasn't that whole point of bringing Sasuke back to the village? Why is Naruto so inconsistent when it comes to Sasuke where one minute he cares so much about Sasuke that nothing else matters if he is not in the village and now it doesn't matter if he is in the village or not?

It's a really weird plot.
 

"Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you"

This may be a translation error I guess, but this line sounds really disturbing. It reminds me of a similar line said by kitten Hinata in RTN when Sakura was cuddling up to Menma.

Its a Possessive Bipolar Disorder on border with Schizophrenia Its the best way that I can explain their behavior . Its bc Sasuke's mood and goals was constantly changing and Naruto just followed him in every step of the way bc as the "Rip Off Sellout Artist" once said when he's thinking of Sasuke's character he thinks of Naruto's too and the otherway around. The thing is Kishimoto made Sasuke's character way to complicated and inconsistent to the point that you can't really make a definitive opinion on what his character is supposed to be exactly. He starts off as a rival then one minute he's an avenger the next minute he's an evil kitten then he's an antihero and in the end he makes him a savior on pair with Naruto! I mean WTF his character is just all over the place that you just can't make any sense of it, its a freaking disaster!!!  Kishimoto probably thought that it makes Sasuke a "mysterious" character when in fact its the very opposite of that it was just ridiculous!!! This is what destroyed the whole story basically bc Kishimoto was trying to pull some mambo jambo morality bs message about brotherhood,friendship,forgiveness and all that crap with Sasuke as the focal point that just didn't made any sense whatsoever bc there were little to no elements for that as the characterization flew all over the place and so were the plot points. From this point on the story/plot wasn't anymore about Naruto the "Hero" but about Sasuke's Journey that ultimately destroyed the story as there was no any realistic moral values and so the story about the "Great Hero" and everything that makes a good Hero was again ultimately destroyed! You basically get Naruto The Little Whiny Betch The End!!!        

 

Its a ridiculous plot and it all goes down to the author's inability of writing and decent characterization.

 

You know I'm gonna say it again I freaking love Hideaki Sorachi and Gintama bc its not your standard shounen manga bc he constantly breaks the 4th wall and ridicule series like Naruto bc the man is a freaking writing genius especially when it comes to characterization a delivering powerful profound messages in an instant unlike "Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you" . I'm gonna put this quote again and again and again just to show how stupidly ridiculous Kishimoto's writing is.

 

Hijikata: You're not Buddha! You think you can bring salvation to everyone you meet? There are people you can save and others you can't save no matter how hard you try. Is the way you live your life so fragile that you'd break just because of that?

 

 


Edited by FireFox, 23 December 2017 - 06:45 PM.

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#437 Phantom_999

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:42 PM

I mean, Toriyama put Vegeta and Bulma together because he got tired of being asked about pairings and just threw them together on a whim...and people loved it. They loved the fact that Vegeta and Bulma were together because it made Vegeta grow up as a character and it made him have something to further his race.
 
 
I mentioned that I always hated Sasuke and the dynamic with the series because the two main character focused on him. It was basically obsession because Naruto was even willing to give up his whole life, his friends, and the entire village for Sasuke. Like, this is the hero we got? Well, he will protect us and save te day, but if it came between a choice of Sasuke or the village, he chose Sasuke every time without thought. If anyone talked about Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone mentioned Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone told a truth about Sasuke, he denied it, hated them, and called them liars. This dude hypervantilated and passed out because someone said "They plan on killing Sasuke." Jesus, why not just marry Sasuke if you intende to be that obsessive over him. Even Death Battle poked at the joke in the Naruto vs Ichigo fight called Sasuke Naruto's boyfriend.

It is insane just how far Kishimoto pushed the "Sasuke is important to Naruto" gimmick. I mean, really why? Why was Sasuke so important? With Sasuke being gone for three years and Naruto not seeing him for most of it, he was doing pretty well. It is even more funny that after Sasuke is "no longer evil" Naruto was living a life despite him not being in the village for over 15 years. So when Sasuke was "Evil" Naruto said he needed to come back and not be evil, but if Sasuke is good and not in the village, then Naruto doesn't care. Why all of a sudden Naruto doesn't mind Sasuke not in the village? What is the real difference between now and back then? IIt can;t be because Sasuke was evil back then and that makes the diffference because Naruto got made and was confused when people said "Sasuke is evil" Wasn't that whole point of bringing Sasuke back to the village? Why is Naruto so inconsistent when it comes to Sasuke where one minute he cares so much about Sasuke that nothing else matters if he is not in the village and now it doesn't matter if he is in the village or not?

It's a really weird plot.
 
"Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you"

This may be a translation error I guess, but this line sounds really disturbing. It reminds me of a similar line said by kitten Hinata in RTN when Sakura was cuddling up to Menma.


Exactly. I already brought this up in a previous post. WHY THE EFF did Naruto fight so hard to bring his beloved "man candy" Sasuke Uchiha home if Sasulke was going to up and leave the village anyway? Oh If forgot, because Sasuke did not "leave the last time with Naruto's blessings." When I think about, Naruto is actually a pretty selfish dictator in a sense, because he either talk no jutsus you into going with his beliefs or he beats the crap out of you if you don't. Or worst of all, he  BEGS AND PLEADS with you to spare his "boyfriend's" life. 
 
On that topic this is what I find so stupidly inconsistent, even for the series. WHY Was Naruto willing to forgive Orichimaru's sole Attrocity that he (Naruto) actually gave two sh--------its about? That is, "robbing his beloved, sexy Sasuke's BODY AND SOUL"? :lmao: I was under the impression that any threats to Sasuke is PUNISHIABLE BY DEATH" in his eyes, so why his he letting Orochimaru walk away with THAT? No, forget the fact that Orochimaru killed thousands of villagers from their home, experimented on said citizens, including children in secret, killed Hizuren who was like a grandfather to him, and started a war in the village that would escalated further, because Naruto doesn't give an EFF about any of that, as recent Boruto episodes can attest to.  :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 25 January 2018 - 05:21 PM.

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#438 James S Cassidy

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:06 PM

Its a Possessive Bipolar Disorder on border with Schizophrenia Its the best way that I can explain their behavior . Its bc Sasuke's mood and goals was constantly changing and Naruto just followed him in every step of the way bc as the "Rip Off Sellout Artist" once said when he's thinking of Sasuke's character he thinks of Naruto's too and the otherway around. The thing is Kishimoto made Sasuke's character way to complicated and inconsistent to the point that you can't really make a definitive opinion on what his character is supposed to be exactly. He starts off as a rival then one minute he's an avenger the next minute he's an evil kitten then he's an antihero and in the end he makes him a savior on pair with Naruto! I mean WTF his character is just all over the place that you just can't make any sense of it, its a freaking disaster!!!  Kishimoto probably thought that it makes Sasuke a "mysterious" character when in fact its the very opposite of that it was just ridiculous!!! This is what destroyed the whole story basically bc Kishimoto was trying to pull some mambo jambo morality bs message about brotherhood,friendship,forgiveness and all that crap with Sasuke as the focal point that just didn't made any sense whatsoever bc there were little to no elements for that as the characterization flew all over the place and so were the plot points. From this point on the story/plot wasn't anymore about Naruto the "Hero" but about Sasuke's Journey that ultimately destroyed the story as there was no any realistic moral values and so the story about the "Great Hero" and everything that makes a good Hero was again ultimately destroyed! You basically get Naruto The Little Whiny Betch The End!!!        

 

Its a ridiculous plot and it all goes down to the author's inability of writing and decent characterization.

 

You know I'm gonna say it again I freaking love Hideaki Sorachi and Gintama bc its not your standard shounen manga bc he constantly breaks the 4th wall and ridicule series like Naruto bc the man is a freaking writing genius especially when it comes to characterization a delivering powerful profound messages in an instant unlike "Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you" . I'm gonna put this quote again and again and again just to show how stupidly ridiculous Kishimoto's writing is.

 

Hijikata: You're not Buddha! You think you can bring salvation to everyone you meet? There are people you can save and others you can't save no matter how hard you try. Is the way you live your life so fragile that you'd break just because of that?

 

 

Ugh....it makes my head hurt. This is why I always said Sasuke is a product of the plot. He is whatever the plot needs him to be. This is especially evident when Sasuke had the perfect chance to take out Konoha to "make them pay" for what they did to his clan and it just so happens that Itachi comes out of nowhere and now Sasuke needs answers from him. Like, really? You had all the answers before. Obito told you exactly what the massacre was about and you knew the truth from even Danzo. So why all of a sudden do you need answers from Itachi and the Hokage when they basically said "Yes, Sasuke, you are justified in what you feel. You didn't fail the village, the village failed you" then all of a sudden he is like "Oh, well that is great. Now I can begin my plan to destry-I mean take over Konoha as Hokage and rule the world."

Why? Why would you need to do that Sasuke? Because the plot needed him to fight Naruto first. If Naruto wasn't there to protect the village, then the plot has to miraculously have Sasuke change his entire view until he comes face to face with Naruto despite the fact that he had a perfect and opportune chance to take out Konoha while the main force was away.

Sasuke ended being a plot object of convenience rather than a character.

As for Gintama....I really wish Ginatama was dubbed because I really like the series too. It is such a great anime. It's like if you mixed Bleach with One Punch Man all the while making fun of DBZ.

 


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#439 FireFox

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:55 PM

Ugh....it makes my head hurt. This is why I always said Sasuke is a product of the plot. He is whatever the plot needs him to be. This is especially evident when Sasuke had the perfect chance to take out Konoha to "make them pay" for what they did to his clan and it just so happens that Itachi comes out of nowhere and now Sasuke needs answers from him. Like, really? You had all the answers before. Obito told you exactly what the massacre was about and you knew the truth from even Danzo. So why all of a sudden do you need answers from Itachi and the Hokage when they basically said "Yes, Sasuke, you are justified in what you feel. You didn't fail the village, the village failed you" then all of a sudden he is like "Oh, well that is great. Now I can begin my plan to destry-I mean take over Konoha as Hokage and rule the world."

Why? Why would you need to do that Sasuke? Because the plot needed him to fight Naruto first. If Naruto wasn't there to protect the village, then the plot has to miraculously have Sasuke change his entire view until he comes face to face with Naruto despite the fact that he had a perfect and opportune chance to take out Konoha while the main force was away.

Sasuke ended being a plot object of convenience rather than a character.

As for Gintama....I really wish Ginatama was dubbed because I really like the series too. It is such a great anime. It's like if you mixed Bleach with One Punch Man all the while making fun of DBZ.

 

I feel you bro it pretty much goes both ways, it feels like Sasuke became the plot and and the plot object of convenience/plot device at the same time, does this even make any sense!? 

 

You know when you say convenience it pretty much reminds me of Sasuke visiting the Uzumiki shrine, Naruto who was a freaking Uzumaki didn't even get to go there not sure if he even knows that place exists but Sasuke did!? FUKING HELL!!! I mean really like you couldn't introduce this earlier at some point in the story and make Naruto learn some freaking Fuinjutsu!!? Fuking Ridiculous!!! 

Speaking of the Hokages they pretty much fall into the category of Sasuke wankers Naruto barely spend any time with them or got any recognition as a future Hokage candidate and I couldn't believe they were praising him for literary doing nothing! Again  FUKING HELL!!!! Was that even necessary!? Its things like this that pisses me off its just so..........ugh!!! I can't deal with this kitten anymore  :facepalm:

 

Yeah exactly its makes it unique XD.  I get that although I prefer the sub and would recommended it to anyone bc the VA's makes it that much more unique, the only downside is that its pretty hard to follow the subs bc they explain literary everything and it doesn't let you focus completely so sometimes you have to pause in order to read it  which is a drag, and its why I presume you wish it was dubbed!?  :sweat:.  


Edited by FireFox, 23 December 2017 - 09:24 PM.

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#440 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

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What's the the different here , Naruto and Sakura is also forcefully shove their will to Sasuke's throat , want to bring him back , because they both wants to be acknowledge by hm , Sakura wants her love to be accepted by him , and few other reason. It's not like Sasuke got kidnap or brainwash/mind control , he choose that path with his own free will and as a friend you should honor and respect that decision , grow up!! you can't stay kid forever , team 7 sooner or latter gonna break nothing is eternal , sadly Naruto and Sakura are in their little own world of denial that team 7 must always go back to those happy times together when they were kids. Irony , so what Naruto trying to say here is , Sasuke is not belongs to you , because he is MINE!!.

 

 

 

I'll never understand why Naruto and Sakura were made to be so obsessed with Sasuke and I never liked the dysfunctional "dynamic" of T7 from the beginning, it never really did made any sense more so bc it was always revolved around Sasuke, and I always asked myself this question "What did Sasuke really do to deserve this obsessed devotion from Naruto & Sakura!?"  The answer is pretty simple he did absolutely nothing except belittle them both (for Sakura it was even worse) and their whole obsession with him and their "bond" as a team is based on shallow reasons, just bc Sasuke was the genius prince charming with a pedigree and everybody freaking loved him! Naruto made him his rival and Sakura made him her "love" trophy (she even turned her back to her bff Ino bc of it, who was the first person to accept her for who she is) bc they both wanted someone to acknowledge them in order to validate themselves. No matter how you spin it their "bond" was never really developed beyond the one of being toxic to them, and in the end they were both destroyed bc of it, they never did really grown up and any character development they had was completely striped off, they were reverted back to an even more miserable versions then their childhood ones. I loved Naruto and Sakura bc they were so similar to each other yet different and they shined the best especially when Sasuke wasn't around they were their true selves and they weren't afraid of it.

 

But no one was immune to Sasuke and his holiness, even Sai was shoehorned as nothing but Sasuke's replacement and he was a better friend and a team member to both Naruto and Sakura and most importantly they functioned so much better as a team they dynamic was great if not perfect. The same thing could be said about Taka who accepted Sasuke for who he really was and understood him the best they never forced him for anything, their bond was twisted but it worked on some twisted level, though later on he destroyed that too and they were given the boot too in the end especially Karin. 

 

This is why I say the best way to describe Sasuke is CANCER nothing more nothing less.   

 

 

I mean, Toriyama put Vegeta and Bulma together because he got tired of being asked about pairings and just threw them together on a whim...and people loved it. They loved the fact that Vegeta and Bulma were together because it made Vegeta grow up as a character and it made him have something to further his race.
 

 

I mentioned that I always hated Sasuke and the dynamic with the series because the two main characters focused on him. It was basically obsession because Naruto was even willing to give up his whole life, his friends, and the entire village for Sasuke. Like, this is the hero we got? Well, he will protect us and save the day, but if it came between a choice of Sasuke or the village, he chose Sasuke every time without thought. If anyone talked about Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone mentioned Sasuke, he hated them. If anyone told a truth about Sasuke, he denied it, hated them, and called them liars. This dude hypervantilated and passed out because someone said "[They] plan on killing Sasuke." Jesus, why not just marry Sasuke if you intend to be that obsessive over him. Even Death Battle poked at the joke in the Naruto vs Ichigo fight calling Sasuke Naruto's boyfriend.

It is insane just how far Kishimoto pushed the "Sasuke is important to Naruto" gimmick. I mean, really why? Why was Sasuke so important? With Sasuke being gone for three years and Naruto not seeing him for most of it, he was doing pretty well. It is even more funny that after Sasuke is "no longer evil" Naruto was living a life despite him not being in the village for over 15 years. So when Sasuke was "Evil" Naruto said he needed him to come back and not be evil, but if Sasuke is good and not in the village, then Naruto doesn't care. Why all of a sudden Naruto doesn't mind Sasuke not in the village? What is the real difference between now and back then? It can't be because Sasuke was evil back then and that makes the diffference because Naruto got mad and was confused when people said "Sasuke is evil" Wasn't that whole point of bringing Sasuke back to the village? Why is Naruto so inconsistent when it comes to Sasuke where one minute he cares so much about Sasuke that nothing else matters if he is not in the village and now it doesn't matter if he is in the village or not?

It's a really weird plot.
 

"Don't you dare talk of Sasuke like he belongs to you"

This may be a translation error I guess, but this line sounds really disturbing. It reminds me of a similar line said by kitten Hinata in RTN when Sakura was cuddling up to Menma. Not that it is a bad thing, but this really hints at Homosexual undertones. This is something a jealous girlfriend might say to another girl.

I think the very last lines of the chapter now give it away in hindsight.

"Extreme power born of a rage verging on MADNESS!"


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