169 replies to this topic

[Skarrow]

It not that he ignores it, rather he has acknowledged it a long time ago like many of us. That said of course, guys' feelings can change as well, we are all human. That said Naruto never really have a moment of doubt because of that circumstance that the movie made up. The story shouldn't have him kept that feeling for Sakura till the end, especially when it was clear that NS was the path by the time Pain Arc happened.

 

Fair enough. Then I bring up my other argument:

 

I argue that Sakura clearly didn't care about Naruto, the exact same way Sasuke didn't care about her in chapter 693. She yelled her disgusting confession right in front of Naruto and Kakashi.

 

If we're arguing that NS "should have happened" because of their manga interaction with each other, then I also claim it "couldn't have happened", also because of their final manga interactions.

 

I also amend the word "disgusting". It was simply "desperate", and whether or not I found it disgusting - or something equally negative - shouldn't have appeared in my statement.

Edited by Skarrow, 22 April 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

I don't see Sasuke reciprocating Sakura's feelings in 699. He gave her a brotherly poke on the forehead, which was obviously something that she didn't understand.

 

However, it doesn't change the fact that somehow or other, in the future, they have a kid together.

 

Many people on this forum disliked what Sakura said about a girl's feelings never changing, because human feelings CAN change.

 

So surely a boy's feelings could change overtime as well?

 

I didn't say anything about SS in my previous post. But alright, let's talk about it.

 

I argue that Sakura clearly didn't care about Naruto, the exact same way Sasuke didn't care about her in chapter 693+. She yelled her disgusting confession right in front of Naruto and Kakashi.

 

If we're arguing that NS "should have happened" because of their manga interaction with each other, then I also claim it "couldn't have happened", also because of their final manga interactions.

Skarrow. The problem is looking at that scene with NS is that by that point. Is looking back it obvious that the editors were never going to allow NS to happen. They wanted nH no matter what and would never allow NS to happen. So if it destroyed NS? It really doesn't matter. What matters is that 7 chapters before the ending it is laid out why one of the end pairings doesn't work. Without any good come back or anything in the in between chapter to justify why they get together. That is a problem in story telling. So obvious that it shocking that that it was let through could have only had happened either because of sheer incompetence or apathy.

 

The scene is Kishimoto laying out everything wrong with SS and asking his editors "do they still want this pairing along with nH." They said yes because they honestly didn't care and kishi threw up his hands.

[Skarrow]

@Bail

 

Okay, just to recap:

 

I claimed that because of IC character interactions between Team 7 in chapter 693 and above (including The Last, which is chapter 699.5), Sakura was once again shown pushing away Naruto in favor of Sasuke, and thus NS wouldn't have made sense IC from that point on.

 

Bail, you said that "SS happening after 693 didn't make sense because sasuke bluntly pointed out her had no interest in her and had no idea why she had any in him." which to me is an acceptance of what I claimed previously since you didn't refute it. Also you brought up a point that I never mentioned.

 

So I claimed what you quoted in your post above.

 

And then you say that the editors are at fault.

 

 

Which is why, I ask you now:

 

 

What were we arguing about again? Are we talking about IC (in-universe, thinking of the characters as people with free will)? Or are we talking about OOC (any outside forces that could have influenced the story, regarding characters as tools to tell the story)?

 

o_0V

 

Uhhh. I'm legitimately confused, and I cannot respond because I don't know what we're arguing about anymore.

Edited by Skarrow, 22 April 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[NeonRanger]

In the end we expected just too much from Kishi. He basically admitted how majority of his plot was ideas created by Yahagi. He was the only reason why Naruto became as good as it is. Kishi had ask editors advice with the minakushi romance. Overall, Kishi is bad at writing rrelationships and I should have noticed sooner. SNS is some the number one relationship and Sasuke never contributed anything.

Edited by NeonRanger, 22 April 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[Phantom_999]

So about a year or so ago I wrote up a recap on my view of the Naruto series as a whole and I haven't posted much on the franchise since then.

 

Buuuuuuut, recently reading some fan works and sticking around this site, it got me thinking about a writing point that I noticed from Kishimoto revolving around NaruHina. 

 

To start off with, nothing about this is bashing or hating based, simply some observation.

 

Upon looking back on the series, I noticed something about all of the NaruHina 'moments' from beginning to end. It's that they were all very grandiose and were set up to be epic.

 

The Chunin exam thing with Neji, Hinata saving Naruto during Pein, her holding Naruto's hand in the war arc. All these moments were during huge events, making the scope of NaruHina at the time much bigger.

 

I'm starting to think this is why Kishimoto (and the fans of that pairing) felt somewhat satisfied with what "development" the pair received.

 

My problem, and I think it's the same for many of us, is that while there were a bunch of grandiose NaruHina moments, there was never any simple dialogue sequences between the two.

 

It really goes back to the old saying of less is more. For example, if Kishimoto wanted some solid development, it should have been Hinata who spoke with Naruto after Jiraiya died. Have the two connect and speak with each other. Simple dialogue sequences like that could have gone such a long way.

 

I think this is why many of us NS people gravitated toward Naruto and Sakura. While NaruSaku had some big moments, (the part where he saved her from Gaara, for example,) there were also a lot of just simple times of them talking or being teammates.

 

Looking back, I think those simple moments of them eating at the ramen shop together produced a deeper looking connection than Hinata confessing to Naruto during a huge battle.

 

Do you guys think it's just my NS bias showing or am I not wrong here?

 

No you're not wrong though there is one thing I would correct. there is nothing grandiose about any NH developments at all, because even after all those moments there was no signs of Naruto reciprocating "anything" to Hinata so they all fall flat. Even that infamous chapter 615, there wasn't anything "romantic" about the subtext Naruto was just acknowledging hinata for snapping him out of his Funk, which by the way was overshadowed by the fact that it was mostly Kurama that  did the work.

 

In contrast Naruto and Sakura grandiose moments? How about Sakura hugging him in fornt of the entire village? they were NOT in the middle of a battle, so it was in plain sight foreveryone to say and it was something very personal at the same time cause Sakura didn't even need to do thta in front of all those people and bear in mind this was AFTER Hinata confessed. and also Sakura was going to feed Naruto, which last I checked was a huge sign of intimacy in Japan. Even though Naruto right hand was out of commission, Sakura didn't need offer, as Sai and Kakashi can attest to.

 

So the funny thing is NH is not justifed. Nothing that happened between them inthe manga justifies any romance, it was noisy blabbering by idiotic Hinata/Naruto self inserts by fans that have no reading comprehesion other than their own wish fulfillment. Oh and by the way, that chapter 615? I didn't see it as a romantic moment really I just overacted because I knew it would start smething and NH got some damn unnecessary fuel 

[Bail o' Lies]

@Bail

 

Okay, just to recap:

 

I claimed that because of IC character interactions between Team 7 in chapter 693 and above (including The Last, which is chapter 699.5), Sakura was once again shown pushing away Naruto in favor of Sasuke, and thus NS wouldn't have made sense IC from that point on.

 

Bail, you said that "SS happening after 693 didn't make sense because sasuke bluntly pointed out her had no interest in her and had no idea why she had any in him." which to me is an acceptance of what I claimed previously since you didn't refute it. Also you brought up a point that I never mentioned.

 

So I claimed what you quoted in your post above.

 

And then you say that the editors are at fault.

 

 

Which is why, I ask you now:

 

 

What were we arguing about again? Are we talking about IC (in-universe, thinking of the characters as people with free will)? Or are we talking about OOC (any outside forces that could have influenced the story, regarding characters as tools to tell the story)?

 

o_0V

 

Uhhh. I'm legitimately confused, and I cannot respond because I don't know what we're arguing about anymore.

The problem is if the editors weren't so obsessed with having nH happen the scene from chapter 693 would have never happen the way it happened. Since they wouldn't let NS happen what important is that the scene heavily damages SS. The thing is that Naruto knows Sakura has feeling for Sasuke. That has never stopped him before. The scene where Sakura hug Sasuke after Tsunade healed him. That didn't stop him from having feeling for her. And from what I recall after Sasuke was done with his little rant to kakashi destroying SS Naruto reaffirmed that he is still keeping the his promise of a lifetime. Who did he make his promise to Sakura.

 

I'm point of it is that the scene doesn't matter for NS, it matters for SS and it was incredibly damaging for SS. It barely affected NS because this stuff has all happened before for them and it had never stopped it before.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 22 April 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[ultranx]

 

Yuyu Hakusho just sold 50 mil while Naruto is 220 mil and DB is 230 mil, shounen audience more love DB type story.

 

 

It lucky not came from WSJ, ToC system in WSJ is well known keep mangaka created story which pleased the mass of it will be axed.  Complicated story ussually came in seinen genre since seinen mass love it, while shonen tend to avoid it because shonen mass hate it.

that's not an argument, that's an excuse, the only reason that the numbers are like that is dragon ball was before yu yu hakusho and was the micheal jordan of anime. naruto was just watched more because of cartoon network and it was after the anime bomb that made anime global, but was I talking other countries? NO I WAS TALKING JAPAN, THE OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TSUNDERE STEREOTYPES AND WHETHER ITS IN BIG IN SHONEN OR NOT. you seriously are very close minded about anime/manga tradition.....

[ultranx]

OK, I think we're getting off track here a bit. 

 

Everyone keeps bringing up other shonen series, but the fact is it doesn't matter what genre it is. Having characters interact, regardless of genre, and regardless if it's romantic or just friendship, is absolutely key in developing any relationship.

 

Honestly, it's writing 101. I watch a lot of movies being a critic, and one constant thing I see, even in mediocre movies, is moments of interaction, dialogue, the characters getting to know each other, so there can actually be some chemistry that the audience can see. This is true for anime, too. 

 

It ties back into my first post in the thread. Moments like this weren't seen as much through the Naruto series between the protagonist and Hinata. Every sequence between the two seemed to come at very grandiose events. We never got to see them simply interact, have a discussion, find some common ground.

 

And doing something like that isn't complicated, either. It's not hard to follow. It also wouldn't take up that much time, a chapter here, a chapter there. It could have been done.

 

I think if the writing had allowed for some scenes like this, myself and I think many other NaruSaku fans would have still been disappointed, but we would have at least been willing to accept in a way that NaruHina has some development without relying on big, climactic moments.

I know that Lid, I'm just tired of HIM, db84x, being all egotistical thinking he knows everything about anime and thinks he knows more about shonens and their traditions than us anime veterans, and the guy wonders why we think he's a troll? seriously.... 

 

by his way of thinking I can already tell he's in his teens and didn't grow up on toonami and all the tons of 80s/90s anime, yet he wants to act so full of himself.....

Edited by ultranx, 22 April 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Another thing ultra you don't have to be an expert/verteran in anime and manga to counter what he is saying. db is saying that shounen doesn't have romance  nor is their any shounen manga that focus on romance nor that audiences and the buyers like it in their shounen manga?  What is he smoking? This is completely false. There are shounen romances there are shounen manga that focus on or are about romances. Let just look at some of the most popular manga that are identified as shounen and see what i can find. 

 

Fairy Tale while it doesn't focus on the romance is a story about Natsu and Lucy their adventures in the guild Fairy tale and their are a lot of shipping pairings. Food wars is a cooking manga yes but it is also a romance manga about Souma and Erina. History strongest disciple kenichi is a marital arts manga but it also about Kenichi and Mui. Nise Kio is a straight up Shounen romance harem manga. Rosario vampire is a shounen romance harem manga. Kimi no Iru Machi  shounen romance manga.  Mahou Sensei Negima was a Shounen harem manga and Love Hina by the same author was a shounen romance manga with a harem. Inuyasha was about Kagome and Inuyasha adventures and romance. Horimiya, To Love-Ru, Yamada-kun to 7-nin no Majo, Detective Conan, Rurouni Kenshin, Kuroko no Basket, and so on. Their has been romance in Shounen manga for at least 30 years and has continued on even to this day. So what is he talking about the audiences sorry the "mass" -not "masses" for some reason- that read shounen manga don't like romance in shounen manga? If they didn't like shounen stories that have romances in them then one why are their so many and two why are these some of the most well know and popular manga?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 23 April 2016 - 11:05 AM.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

^^ I'm surprise you guys put effort in such pointless debates from said someone     

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 23 April 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[db84x]

@ BlackBird19

 

It just run for 5 year, sold only 50 mil and towards the end of the series' run, Togashi was publicly criticized for not meeting chapter deadlines and for lower quality art.  Too bad WSJ ToC database only available from 1999

 

@ Lid

 

In Japan, demographic groups is matter since every demographic groups have its own magazine and different focus group.  Seinen genre well known for its flexibility because Japan seinen mass is flexible while Shonen genre tend more rigid because shounen mass is more rigid.

 

 

@ ultranx & Bail

 

​Non Japan WSJ fans not count in WSJ ToC, only Japan WSJ reader matter, and for friendly reminder Naruto is rarely out from upper rank WSJ ToC for 15 years.   ToC is way WSJ done its business for years, your moaning wont chance anything.

 

@ Konoha

 

Some people due fanaticism often trapped on la la land, Naruto is always about SNS while other shipper just addition.   

 

@ Neon

 

Thats why I really confused saw people failed to move on from preteen manga like Naruto, there are a lot of manga in seinen genre which suit their taste.

Edited by db84x, 23 April 2016 - 07:04 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

^^ I'm surprise you guys put effort in such pointless debates from said someone     

Trust me this didn't really take any effort. Since his argument is the people who read shounen don't like romance nor want any romance in their shounen manga. So therefor since they don't like romance in the tag their shouldn't be that many shounen with romance in them and the ones that do shouldn't be that popular or well known. All i had to do is. I open up a manga site and just looked for shounen with romance made it look for the most popular ones. Then i just listed any in the first page that had the tag "romance."

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 23 April 2016 - 08:39 PM.

[Anthony]

I like you dbxrfery4w whatever your name is

[BlackBird19]

@ BlackBird19

 

It just run for 5 year, sold only 50 mil and towards the end of the series' run, Togashi was publicly criticized for not meeting chapter deadlines and for lower quality art.  Too bad WSJ ToC database only available from 1999

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

19 volumes sold 50million copies in Japan alone, that's a full million more copies sold per volume than Naruto. I'd say it did pretty darn well. Just a simple way to put those numbers you fall back on so much in another context. 

 

And when Togashi started to struggle with his story he did what any decent author should do. He ended his story. He didn't drag it out for another 5 years or so like Kishimoto did while garnering just as much criticism during those final years. Plus YuYu Hakusho is still remembered rather fondly by many manga fans to this day because it didn't leave a bulk of it's fans with a bitter taste in their mouth quite like Naruto did.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

No you're not wrong though there is one thing I would correct. there is nothing grandiose about any NH developments at all, because even after all those moments there was no signs of Naruto reciprocating "anything" to Hinata so they all fall flat. Even that infamous chapter 615, there wasn't anything "romantic" about the subtext Naruto was just acknowledging hinata for snapping him out of his Funk, which by the way was overshadowed by the fact that it was mostly Kurama that  did the work.

 

In contrast Naruto and Sakura grandiose moments? How about Sakura hugging him in fornt of the entire village? they were NOT in the middle of a battle, so it was in plain sight foreveryone to say and it was something very personal at the same time cause Sakura didn't even need to do thta in front of all those people and bear in mind this was AFTER Hinata confessed. and also Sakura was going to feed Naruto, which last I checked was a huge sign of intimacy in Japan. Even though Naruto right hand was out of commission, Sakura didn't need offer, as Sai and Kakashi can attest to.

 

So the funny thing is NH is not justifed. Nothing that happened between them inthe manga justifies any romance, it was noisy blabbering by idiotic Hinata/Naruto self inserts by fans that have no reading comprehesion other than their own wish fulfillment. Oh and by the way, that chapter 615? I didn't see it as a romantic moment really I just overacted because I knew it would start smething and NH got some damn unnecessary fuel 

And, as mentioned, pretty much all of those moments could have Hinata replaced with any other character and the results would be the same because the point of a majority of those moments was not romance. Even with the confession, you could simply replace Hinata with some random villager while slightly altering the wording of the confession; like that villager could be someone who outwardly seemed to be like any other villager who ignored/scorned Naruto as a child, but on the inside, he/she actually truly admired Naruto and thought of him as the hero Hiruzen/Minato wanted him to be seen as, but unlike how Naruto was always being, they themselves were too cowardly to show it because they were afraid of how the rest of the village would view them and thus now they were being "selfish" by wanting to try to make it up to him somehow and say, "Because...I deeply admire you". Then, they get "killed" by Pein and Naruto erupts in anger because he sees everyone in the village as precious people.

[Bail o' Lies]

19 volumes sold 50million copies in Japan alone, that's a full million more copies sold per volume than Naruto. I'd say it did pretty darn well. Just a simple way to put those numbers you fall back on so much in another context. 

 

And when Togashi started to struggle with his story he did what any decent author should do. He ended his story. He didn't drag it out for another 5 years or so like Kishimoto did while garnering just as much criticism during those final years. Plus YuYu Hakusho is still remembered rather fondly by many manga fans to this day because it didn't leave a bulk of it's fans with a bitter taste in their mouth quite like Naruto did.

Another way to look at the difference between these two is their other manga and how they are treated by SJ. Hunter X Hunter which is togashi current manga has gone on hiatuses dozens of times. Yet has never been cancelled and never been removed from weekly shounen jump. Togashi can release one chapter every 3 years and they are completely fine with that. Kishimoto wasn't able to take his wife on their honeymoon until last year because he could never get that time off. When he got tired of writing Naruto the quickly decided when & how he should end it, had novels made to continue the story -to pick out his replacement writer-, picked out one of his assistant to replace him as the artist,, had a sequel quickly made up, and had kishi write one shots to give his replacements ideas to work off of. So SJ care about togashi and his story, while they only care about Naruto and see kishimoto as replaceable.

[ultranx]

Another way to look at the difference between these two is their other manga and how they are treated by SJ. Hunter X Hunter which is togashi current manga has gone on hiatuses dozens of times. Yet has never been cancelled and never been removed from weekly shounen jump. Togashi can release one chapter every 3 years and they are completely fine with that. Kishimoto wasn't able to take his wife on their honeymoon until last year because he could never get that time off. When he got tired of writing Naruto the quickly decided when & how he should end it, had novels made to continue the story -to pick out his replacement writer-, picked out one of his assistant to replace him as the artist,, had a sequel quickly made up, and had kishi write one shots to give his replacements ideas to work off of. So SJ care about togashi and his story, while they only care about Naruto and see kishimoto as replaceable.

which means even they know he sucks as a mangaka when it comes to developing a story and characters xD it was yahagi's story after all xD

Edited by ultranx, 25 April 2016 - 04:14 AM.

[Shadow1275]

Skarrow. The problem is looking at that scene with NS is that by that point. Is looking back it obvious that the editors were never going to allow NS to happen. They wanted nH no matter what and would never allow NS to happen. So if it destroyed NS? It really doesn't matter. What matters is that 7 chapters before the ending it is laid out why one of the end pairings doesn't work. Without any good come back or anything in the in between chapter to justify why they get together. That is a problem in story telling. So obvious that it shocking that that it was let through could have only had happened either because of sheer incompetence or apathy.

 

The scene is Kishimoto laying out everything wrong with SS and asking his editors "do they still want this pairing along with nH." They said yes because they honestly didn't care and kishi threw up his hands.

He basically stated it outright in 693. Sasuke states that he was never interested in her and that he never cared for her at all. He says that flat out.

 

Sakura states that even though she knew she had no effect on him she still loved him and if they could possibly be reciprocated he should stop what he is doing. Which is when he flat out rejects.

 

I hate 693. It is my least favorite chapter, but even I have to admit it encapsulates all of the problems that plagued the series. Backwards storytelling, villains that hardly make sense (Sasuke's plan to force people to accept him as hokage has no true motivation), and most important of all people pushing pairings which make no sense. Even Naruto acts out of character as he makes no move to defend Sakura from Sasuke's insults nor does he even try to protect her When Sasuke stabs her through the heart.

 

 

This picture is brutal and ugly. But I believe it is intentional by Kishimoto. Sakura's character represented growth. Her growth as a woman, a shinobi, and a fighter. With 693 everyone's character development was thrown to the wind. Even Kakashi who acted as a mentor to Sakura and noted how her feelings for Sasuke had limited her did not protect her and encouraged Sasuke to reconcile with her.

[rocci]

@shadow
Sasuke stab sakura is a genjutsu.

[Phantom_999]

doesn't change the the meaning or our disgust with it  does it?