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The Naruto Agree/Disagree Discussion Thread


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#1 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:30 PM

This is the thread where I post a statement, you choose to agree or to disagree, and state why you think that.

Rules:
- Only I (TouKen4life3g) can write a statement.

Sorry, but I'm trying to avoid the confusion. I want it to be a discussion thread but focus on one statement at a time.

I will write Statement: bold and all, and then you begin to post your thoughts. There will be new ones.

Enjoy.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 21 January 2016 - 09:48 PM.


#2 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:31 PM

Statement: Despite Itachi being planned to be a hero, he should have remain a villain.

Agree or disagree?

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 21 January 2016 - 09:31 PM.


#3 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:41 PM

Agreed. He killed his own family.

 

Statement: Neji being alive wouldn't give NH a chance. Agree or disagree?


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#4 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:47 PM

Agreed. He killed his own family.
 
Statement: Neji being alive wouldn't give NH a chance. Agree or disagree?

Sorry, only I can write the statement. But I'll agree to it because what's there to relate or push.

#5 rocci

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:04 PM

Statement: Despite Itachi being planned to be a hero, he should have remain a villain.

Agree or disagree?

Agree, while he could be a good man, it doesn't change a fact that he's a kin slayer.

#6 RedFaction

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:07 PM

Agreed. He's a murderer. Too bad this series loves to forgive murderers.

 


#7 rocci

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:12 PM

Agreed. He's a murderer. Too bad this series loves to forgive murderers.

Forgiving is good, but handwave it is bad.

#8 totherpage95

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:13 PM

Statement: Despite Itachi being planned to be a hero, he should have remain a villain.

Agree or disagree?

disagree



#9 RedFaction

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:17 PM

Forgiving is good, but handwave it is bad.

Yeah, and it's just unacceptable that it has happened so many times in this series.

 


#10 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:38 PM

disagree

How come?

#11 tricksie

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:42 PM

Statement: Despite Itachi being planned to be a hero, he should have remain a villain.

Agree or disagree?

Loving this thread!!

 

Agree. Itachi was a killer. There was no heroic behavior to base his redemption on. He wiped out his family, let his kid brother discover the murder scene, then continued to torture Sasuke with it for years afterward, warping him into the villain he becomes in the end.

 

There was no heroic deed Itachi did. We are only told it was heroic, but there is no action to follow that up. 



#12 Yyubie

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:05 PM

Agree. Pretty much what Tricksie said, i like to add few more. No matter what the reason is ... killing is bad, not just 1 person .. he slaughter his entire kin. A lot of people said that he is very smart for pin point Edo Nagato weakness , Orochimaru weakness , and Sage Kabuto weakness , i disagree. If he is that smart he will not do what Danzo told him to either join Konoha forces against his clan to avoid civil war, or join his clan against the village and start a civil war. If he is smart ... he can find another way to prevent both from happening. He even made a secret deal with Madara aka masked man aka Obito to slaughter his clan without telling the higher ups, if he told Hiruzen that Madara still lives and he knows that he is responsible for Minato and Kushina death and kyubi attack 13 years ago, he can just tell all of that to Hiruzen, maybe all of this kitten will not happen. He knows Danzo took Shisui eyes but he still choose to obey his order to wipe out his own clan ... rather than kill Danzo right away and avenge his best friends. He knows Orochimaru is after his body and Uchiha power, if he so smart he should have killed him when Orochimaru still in Akatsuki, he failed to get his body surely he will try to get his younger brother body, if he kill him that day, Sasuke will stay in the village and team 7 will not suffer. I think it's save to say that he is responsible for about 70% many death and suffering in this manga.


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#13 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:12 PM

I'm really glad that I open this thread. Tomorrow, I will have a new one. Please continue on. :)

#14 rocci

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:33 PM

@yubei
Kishi justification is bad.

#15 catsi563

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:46 AM

Im going to disagree.

 

I think itachi was meant to represent the tragic hero. A noble hero whose journey is going to end badly but who courageously continues his journey regardless because he knows the consequences of failure.

 

To those saying he committed murder, did he not stop a coupe attempt by the Uchiha that could've resulted in many innocent deaths? Do we condemn soldiers who kill enemy soldiers for the same reason?

 

itachis actions could stand some scrutiny I grant, but as you read he takes on many aspects of the noble samurai. His loyalty to the village and its people was greater then that to anything save his brother.

 

He accepted permanent exile, being labeled a murderer, and the hatred of his brother who he loved more then anything.

 

He accepted his death at the hands of said brother as his form of atonement, and did what he felt was the best thing to do which was put his brother in a mind set of revenge so he wouldn't feel the guilt of killing him.

 

did he in some fashion fail in this matter? sure we can argue that given that Sasukes goals became opposite to Itachis desires.

 

But In the end Naruto is a product of Asian influenced story telling. One of the archetypes of such stories is that of the doomed hero. Itachi fits this role and to a T and I feel he deserves the title of hero, for his sacrifice which in the end was made for the villages sake.


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#16 rocci

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:14 AM

@catsi
It's kishi justification and it's bad.
He become the villain the day he slaughter the entire clan including non combatant. It's nothing heroic or else Tywin rain of castamere would make him a great hero.

What asian storytelling is this about?

Edited by rocci, 22 January 2016 - 01:14 AM.


#17 Namikaze Clan

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:56 AM

Agreed. He was better as a villain than a hero. Hell, I would have taken anti hero if Kishi could have properly written one

It isn't Naruto unless each villain has a sob story

#18 Shadow1275

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:03 AM

Disagree but not in the sense that you think.

 

I think having Itachi kill the Uchiha for a reason was fantastic. It sealed Sasuke's slow descent towards insanity. (Until he somehow just decided to not be insane and turned "good") It also was a great setup for an eventual Naruto Sasuke conflict. Naruto would protect the village and Sasuke was hellbent on destroying it. But ultimately I would have made Itachi a villain who essentially manipulated his brother to get revenge on the village for forcing him to kill his clan and family. He could have simply told Sasuke why he killed the Uchiha and when this was confirmed by Obito this may have caused Sasuke to want to protect the leaf. (Even Obito admitted that the Uchiha were a nuisance and had begun to act extreme. 

 

But he doesn't. He hides the truth from Sasuke, who in his own words is a blank slate. For a while I thought that the tool of revenge bit was what Itachi was going for. It even fits with his actions. I thought that perhaps Itachi had grown to regret betraying his clan and being manipulated by Danzo which was why he truly joined the Akatski and had simply lied about being a deep cover agent. (We never truly see him report on the Akatski and it's even mentioned that he revisited the village after the 3rd's death to remind Danzo that he was still alive implying a lack of trust between the two.

 

There's a real solid cycle of hate there which actually makes sense, not some dumb cycle from a battle of hate vs. love and a sage of six paths. An actual realistic human cycle of manipulation and revenge. It even fits in with Sasuke's character as well. Think about how he used Naruto, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Team Taka, Obito, and eventually Naruto again as tools and stepping stones towards his goals. Whereas Naruto always saw people as people and believed in working together and yay friendship. 


Edited by Shadow1275, 22 January 2016 - 02:07 AM.

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#19 catsi563

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:09 AM

to answer the prior question the best example of the tragic hero archetype is the story of the 47 ronin.

 

in the story after their master is killed the 47 samurai all become ronin since the emperor orders them not to take vengeance.

 

they wait 10 years or so and then kill the man who murdered their masterallt he whiel KNOWING that to do so is to disobey the emperors command and would result in their deaths.

 

all 47 die most in the battle and the rest by ritual suicide.

 

Itachi in many ways is the same. he is a tragic hero who puts his honor and the safety of his village above everything including his own life and sacrafices everything to protect the village.


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#20 BlackBird19

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 08:34 AM

The 47 Ronin did disobey orders, however they acheived their revenge against the party responsible for their lord's death directly. They did not go in a round about way killing just anybody with a relation to that rival lord. There was no mass slaughter, just an act of war.

 

That story is heralded in Japanese lore to show the samurai's true unending devotion to their retainer. Itachi was no samurai, and chose an action out of, to be quite honest, selfish reasons. Yes he did choose the village first by becoming a double agent for Konoha, but once Sasuke was threatened and the thought of the clan name being forever tarnished he chose to kill his entire clan to save Sasuke and possibly the Uchiha name.

 

If anything you could call what he did an honor killing, and that's murder any way you wish to spell it. Like Rocci said, Kishi was just terrible at his justifications.

 

I only saw one tragic hero in this story and that was Minato. He sacrifices his life to the shinigami and possible normal life his son could've had to protect the village who would later dishonor his memory by treating his child like a leper. The classic no good deed goes unpunished.






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