ThroughWithLove

 

Saying Sasuke's character is popular in asian side just because he was "cool" is superficial analysis. He only consistently get #1 after his character gain depths in the story and abandoned the village for his objectives. Also like i said Japonese culture valorize a lot family loyality and this the central aspect of Sasuke's character.

 

 

After his character started doing cool things like beating Orochimaru, beating an Deidara and defeating Itachi while simaltaneously getting a bunch of cool new abilities. All the while, the actual main character was constantly getting embarrassed and humiliated for a significant chunk of the first timeskip (anyone remember that time Naruto tried to sneak up on kabuto only to get knocked away with a casual backkick? lol). It go so bad that at one point, people began joking about the manga needing to change its name to "Sasuke." In terms of character depth, I just don't see it. How many times did he change his motivation for being evil again?  Given Kakashi's initial placement and the lack of character exploration he got while maintaining that ranking, the "cool factor" definitely appears to be the reason.

 

 

 

I was just talking about their popularity and how this didn't come out of nowhere.  Obvious the SS scenes/moments in part  1 or even in Shippuuden had a lot impact in their popularity. If these scenes are more  or less important compared to NaruSaku  depends on each fandom/person interpretation.  I agree with many usual NS arguments  minus the bench/forehead scenes.

Like i Said i have no interest to defend SS in a NS Forum.
Go to any SS tumblr/Twiiter/Facebook groups and you will find thousends of fangirls who will defend SS to death and ignore your NS arguments...

 

 

I agree that it did not come out of nowhere. What I disagree on is the basis under which it did develop. A lot of people read these mangas and get a sense of wish fulfillment when they do.  Sasuke is the confident badass most young men wish they could be. Most people would much rather be Sasuke than a butt-monkey like Naruto. But for the sake of the argument, lets say you're right and that the popularity was a bit more nuanced and meaningful: What difference does it make? Should popularity be the basis for determining whether something is better?

 

And by all means, please feel free to defend SS here. I don't mind the arguments. I welcome all ideas even if I fundamentally disagree. Assuming we can be respectful with each other, I don't see the problem.

 

I'll let you in on a little secret though: I don't actually "ship" NaruSaku.  That's right. Despite arguing for it and being somewhat active on a NaruSaku site, I don't "ship" it. No, I "ship" the story. I "ship" the natural flow the narrative originally appeared to be going towards. I would submit to you that Naruto and Sakura falling in love with each other is simply the logical conclusion of both character's story arcs. Sakura's arc in particular (at least throughout part 1) revolves around maturing past her young naive shallow self; the little girl who was obsessed with Sasuke to the point of being blind to everything else (i.e. the bench scene). At the end of part 1, we got the first glimpse of Sakura who could overcome that blindness (see the promise of a lifetime and Sakura's realization that Naruto understands her more than anyone else; this is shown in complete contrast to the bench scene).  The problem with SS is that it is missing an arc (or two). Sasuke is legitimately correct when he claims that Sakura has no reason to love him. He doesn't. The author has never provided one. There is nothing to differentiate Sakura's love for Sasuke from Ino's and the little scene of Ino crying over Sasuke when the rookie 9 confirms their plan to kill him indicates as much. Not to mention Asuma's final wish towards Ino that she not lose to Sakura in her pursuit of Sasuke. It's weak. It's shallow. It's bad writing. I like good writing. It's that simple.

 

 

Having a family meal copied from that Minato/Kushina cover?I think NH have one but with Naruto in Kushina's place.

SS and NH have a lot of family meals in Boruto Fillers and even Gaiden finished with a SS family reunion in the dinner table. Maybe in the West Side the NaruSaku/NaruHina definition was good. But not to Kishimoto/Asians clearly

 

 

Family meals? No, look closer at the cover. Notice anything about Naruto and Sakura? It's consistent with both of their characters as far as what was established in the original manga. Can't say the same about the NH version of that cover.

 

 

 

Because Karin was the female Sasuke's partner in Part 2.

Karin already was introduced in the story being hated and unpopular because SS fans.
Not even Sasuke "cool" aspect was enough to give some popularity to this Pairing in any place even before Karin was ridicularized in War Arc.

If you admit Karin was a flat Character with no development with Sasuke and how this  seriously affected SasuKarin popularity then the exact opposite occurred with Sakura/SasuSaku...

 

 

Is that all Karin is? What are her goals besides wanting Sasuke to impregnate her? What's the longest conversation her and Sasuke have ever even had besides him shouting orders? And the difference between Sakura and Karin is that Sakura is not a flat character with no development period. Rather, outside of Sasuke, she gets a great deal of development throughout part 1 and the early parts of part 2. Have Sakura and Sasuke ever even had an actual conversation that didn't involve Sakura wanting him to impregnate her during the original 700 chapters?

 

 

 

Also  many NS like to sideshiping SasuKarin just like SS/NH tended to join together against NaruSaku in the pairings wars days

 

 

I don't know about other people, but the only appeal that has to me is the prospect of SasuKarin's offspring rivaling/romancing NaruSaku's offspring. Outside of that, Karin is a useless character with little purpose.

 

Sasuke was a Village traitor. But he had a blind loyalty to his Family.
Sasuke attained his popularity and many  top 1 on characters polls  exactly after he abandoned the Village and his past was revealed. Before that he wans't more popular than any secondary character like Iruka.

Family loyalty is a ridiculously important thing to many Asian cultures including the Japanese. It is the belief that everyone's highest duty is to ignore what is best for themselves and serve their family. Personally I see it as a form of guilt-tripped slavery, but whatever. Sasuke's blind loyalty to the Uchihas and how he  abandoned everything in his quest to avenge his family's death is what makes him such a popular character in Japan.

As for SasuSaku. Sasuke and Sakura fought together and almost died together many times. They were friends and have development in Part 1. Asians like to think after everything Sasuke always will have Sakura loving and waiting for him. Even in Salad Gaiden. Kishimoto made almost the same plot. Sasuke is "sacrificing" himself in his mission to protect the world while Sakura/Sarada were waiting for him in home.

This is the japonese definition of perfect family:

 

...

 

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Sadly Karin and SasuKarin  never attained any popularity as a alternative  pairing to Sasuke.
 

 

I think the love and popularity Sasuke has is a lot simpler than you make it out to be: Sasuke is (on paper) cooler than Naruto. Remember, although we dissect the hell out of this crap, it is still a comic book marketed towards young boys. In part one, Kakashi was the coolest character, which is why he got 1st place.

 

As for Sasuke and Sakura fighting together and nearly dying together many times, I don't know what you're talking about. Sasuke and Sakura have had a paltry 4 instances of teamwork throughout the entire 700 chapter manga and Naruto was part of that dynamic every single time. Your summary is nice and beautifully written, but I would refer you to my previous post regarding the bench scene if you do not believe I can do the same with Naruto and Sakura.

 

And frankly, I don't know what the Japanese definition of perfect family is, but I can give you an example of something that writes itself and flows naturally from what we've been told throughout the original 700 chapter manga:

 

 

 

 

Lastly, you mention popularity. Why does this concern you so much? SasuKarin never caught on because Karin is a very flat character and has no development with Sasuke whatsoever. For pete's sake, her very next meeting after he tried to murder her resulted in her immediately fangirling over him again. 

Another problem with this series is Naruto's transition to being hokage; there is none. At no point does Naruto ever get presented in any leadership capacity prior to donning the white coat. All we know about him is that he has a bigger number than the other ninjas due to fox magic. Much of the 1st timeskip should have revolved around Naruto being put in leadership positions and slowly developing into someone who the reader feels is ready to promote to hokage.

Hell, part of the reason Sakura apprenticing for Tsunade works so well is because it gave her ample opportunity to assist to hokage. Imagine an ending where she puts these skills to good use and is handling the managerial/organizational side of the job for Naruto while keeping him in line!

I am convinced that any appeal SasuSaku had was primarily result of the popularity of Sasuke in general (i.e. consistently #1 on the character polls). That being said, I don't see the relevance of pairing popularity (other than the indications that the choice of final pairings negatively impacted Boruto). I can say with the utmost confidence that NaruSaku is objectively the best pairing for the series   and can point to the series' themes, character arc and parallels as proof. That being said . . .

 

 

 

The same thing don't  diminish a rival pairing just because you hate them... Calling Sakura's feelings for Sasuke shallow is just denial at this point.

The same argument could work against NaruSaku like many NS haters likes to say and The Last made their own headcanon about this:
Naruto initially only loved Sakura back in the academy because she was the most beautiful  and intelligent Sasuke Fangirl...

 

My original point is only Sakura's pink hair and how i think it's more unique than her forehead...

It's  hard to don't talk about SS in  a topic about a SS manga.

But whatever.

 

Using only the 700 chapters of the original manga, how is calling Sakura's feelings for Sasuke shallow denial? Need we refer to the author's subtle admission of this when he has Kakashi give that "love doesn't need a reason" speech? Sorry, but it was shallow and you can't say otherwise without citing material created outside of the original 700 chapters or headcanon.

 

I disagree on NS being comparable. With NS, we can look to the original 700 chapters and we can pull out statements from the characters and we can cite parallels. I'll grant you that mostly everything I have to say about the bench scene is headcanon, but it at very least provides a plausible explanation for Sakura's feelings as opposed to the "love doesn't need a reason" lazily written garbage Kakashi uncharacteristically spewed in chapter 693. No, I would say there is a very compelling case to be made that NS was the planned endgame originally and someone made a (miscalculated) business decision to go in a different direction at some point. I've made a detailed thread on this topic before, but I heavily suspect there was a lot of backroom consternation between the production of chapters 458 and 459. The subtle difference in what Sai says in these two chapters speaks volumes. One chapter makes Sai a mouthpiece for NaruSaku and the other chapter has him walking back his original statements for no reason. Sai goes full blown backpeddle mode in chapter 471 and then everyone pretends this conversation never happened afterwards.

 

I reject your explanation for why Naruto loved Sakura during the academy. If you read chapter 3, you'll notice that Naruto does not have an epiphany on why he likes Sakura so much until she explains why she would like to be acknowledged by Sasuke. Hmm . . . now what other character at that time spent so much time wanting to be acknowledged by others?

 

Naruto and Sasuke are mainly used as a plot device to hype villains and the other rookies are too irrelevant. Naruto only exists to affect Kawaki and Sasuke rarely appears.

Why Sasuke's fans should care about Boruto?
Sasuke is just a pathetic shadow of his oldself.
He didn't have importants fights beside the one in the original Boruto movie/Gaiden. He's nerfed and was ridiculous stabed in the eye.
He doesn't have objectives,importance or  even his past glorious uchiha  pride...
He is just Boruto teacher.
Sakura is non existent.
Sarada hardly have any importance or interact with Sasuke/Sakura.

Naruto is a pathetic Hokage figure who ignore his family and now lost 90% of his strenght when Kurama died.

Hinata and her ugly daughter doesn't exist.

Only Boruto.

Buruto failed miserable as a fanservice/Story for Sasuke, Naruto, SS and NH fans. They simply didn't care or even hate  Boruto  manga...

Like i said this SasuSaku manga is a desperate attempt to bring old Sasuke, Sakura, Uchiha and SS fans or see if they  still are financially profitable...

 

 

 

Everything in this post is 100% correct.

Well, I'm glad there is a discussion in these summary topics went on without me having to keep it going.

 

Still agree with Phantom. The Pink hair may stand out to you, Therece, but the story never cared about it. It cared about the forehead. Even the pink hair wouldn't matter in this side manga if her name wasn't "Sakura."

 

https://www.fandomsp...ed-anime-girls/

 

"Top 60 Cutest Pink-Haired Anime Girls: The Best Of All Time" She is #10. So for the intended audience, shounen manga readers, Pink Hair is not that uncommon.

 

I think I answered the bench scene on the NaruSaku discussion thread a few months back. Both the comment and joking about it made it seem like 'Sasuke' was letting down his guard and showing Sakura the "real" him. Something he has never done to anyone else as far as she knows; making her feel special. Which is why her crush turned into love. Then Naruto had to run to the bathroom due to bad milk. She meets the real Sasuke who was after Naruto. She wanted to end any Naruto talk so they could get back to the kissing. Here is an experiment if you have a significant other. Have a make out session and get them really into it. Then talk about something irrelevant from their parents to this one guy at work. I assure you there is nothing they want to do less than talk about something the breaks up the mode for the make out. So, she badmouthed Naruto, this pissed Sasuke off cause it hit close to home for him. Which made her feel she missed her chance by getting him angry at her, and caused her to reflect on how she was treating Naruto. When Sasuke was leaving the village Sakura invoked the bench scene to remind him of both, "his feelings for her as well as him getting angry at her. How they had spent the last few months on a team, and during all that time, he had always kept her at a distance. Making her think, that he was still angry at her for the comment. Preventing him from letting down his guard with her again." The reveal was not going to happen till near the end of the manga as once she learned of it. She would switch to Naruto. Shounen main pairing couples traditionally don't get together till near or at the end. However, by that time she was already replaced by Hinata. So, it was dropped.

 

 

What's frustrating is that everything you just said is by far the easiest way to fix most of the problems with Sakura as a character (mindless devotion to Sasuke). Turns out it wasn't mindless devotion and that there was a method to her madness. The problem is that Naruto, in his goofball way, caused this madness. It would've been such a good scene for Sakura. Initially, she would be PISSED about this revelation. But upon cooling down a little and going through several bouts of confusion, it would become clear to her once and for all why she was so devoted to Sasuke the entire time despite all the terrible things he had done; she had become smitten with her soulmate during that day on the bench; your feelings for your soulmate never change. Cue a bunch of flashbacks showcasing every narusaku moment in the series and boom; a weight has been lifted off the pinkette's shoulders and she has finally come to terms with who she is and who she really loves.

 

Hell, they could even lift this scene out of Hunter x Hunter, albeit with a few alterations:

 

 

Meruem = Sakura

Komugi = Naruto

Gungi Game =  The two at Ichiraku's ramen together.

 

The way this manga was written . . . it was tailor made for NaruSaku. For pete's sake: The author based Naruto on himself and Sakura on his freaking wife!!! To do this day, I do not understand how an author can willfully take away such a positive and upbeat storyline and ditch it in favor of . . . this Boruto mutant thing.  And it's not just NaruSaku either. There are so many things that were brilliantly setup prior to the first timeskip that . . . if nurtured correctly . . . could have made Naruto the greatest shounen of all time. So much abysmally WASTED POTENTIAL and the man destroys all of it due to having the imagination of a freaking potato. I've said it before and I will say it again: Naruto is the Darth Vader of manga/anime. Infinite potential squandered away due to bad decision making. Sorry for the rant!

Kishimoto didn't want to show any glimpse of Sasuke's feelings for Sakura  before Sasuke x Naruto since this could ruin the most expected manga battle.

 

 

Lets assume this was Kishimoto's intention. Do you think this is good writing and why?

 

 

Also this a Shounnen Battle Manga. Romance and pairing development aren't the focus. Kishimoto  thought the Forehead Poke  and NaruHina handholding scene was enough to show the couples without any doubting about the Boys feelings...

 

Anyway if Karin had at least half of SS/NH or Hinata popularity. I'm certain Kishimoto could had done NS/SK route. NS would hurt  two big fanbases while SS/NH only hurt NS.

 

For a manga that doesn't focus on romance and pairing development, he sure spent a significant amount of time on it with respect to the pairing that did not happen. He can do whatever wants; it's his manga. But my issue is (and always will be) good and bad writing. Pairings/relationships are utterly meaningless; the question should always be how something enhances the quality of the story. I would submit to you that NS fits the themes and respective character arcs of the original 700 chapter manga better than any other pairing. As for karin, she comes across as someone solely created for the sake of being in Sasuke's new team/posse. Whether they got together would not have affected the story, but I can see potential sequel scenarios it would have helped.

 

Sakura Fan happy about new content  ≠  SS Shipper.

Okay guys if you don't want to discuss any new Sakura content and wants this forum as dead as before only with claims and complaints with a ship who sunked 8 years ago.
Bye.

 

Since you're simply a Sakura fan, let me ask you a question: If a new Sakura focused side manga came out and the manga exclusively consisted of Sakura dating Orochimaru, Sakura gaining significant amounts of weight and Sakura getting a sex change, would you be happy about the new content simply on the basis that it was new Sakura content?

Got bored, look through reddit.

 

The manga thread is annoyed about Shinjutsu as it the clear new level of power creep and anyone that doesn't have it is now useless...which is everyone but Bolt and Nail. Some have gotten tired of Madoc yearly exposition chapters. And, they are trying to justify how Moe's power work.

 

Simple, Ikemoto made a broken power thinking it was cool but didn't put any limitation in place. Normally, when you give someone these sort of reflection powers you either make him physically weak so he can be restrained, but Ikemoto made him the strongest person to ever exist. Or, have abilities to capture him. Besides, Shikamaru's shadow bind the next thing would be seal, but no one in the cast actually uses seals. So he is unbeatable without kitten because how Ikemoto set it up. So they had to put some limitations while explain how he was able to harm people form a distance when he was introduced.

 

The Naruto thread seem happy its finally doing something. And wonder how Hime past seeing eye works and what Madoc is still hiding. As questing why didn't he just try edo tensei.

 

In the Boruto thread. The one with the lowest standard and even they know this is the first chapter where the plot actually has moved forward instead of spinning its wheels. Some point out that femmy has basically become Bolt's Kurama now.

 

I know I mentioned this before, but I will mention it again: They didn't need to engage in ANY of this power creep. They could have left Naruto and Sasuke as being nightmarishly stronger than anyone else and still have made a good story that scaled to street level threats/dangers. Bring the series back to the roots it established in the Zabaza arc and work our way up from there. 

 

 

...Where does it say kishimoto is the writer? The cover page of this very chapter says he is the creator/supervisor, of course it also says Ikemoto is the artist, but no one is listed as the writer. Which means its likely one of those two. It was never said he was returning as the writer people just hoped/assumed that. But again even if he was the writer, the story has not changed which means Ikemoto is still the one coming up with it and kishimoto would just be writing the script while suggesting ideas here and there. The story has to come from Ikemoto because he is the one constantly there. If he had just 'returned' then he is again just a supervisor.

 

Because nH and SS were a last minute pairings they didn't get many romantic scenes as they would want. Also, since they won of the dreaded NS they wanted more story to prove the superiority of nH/SS. Of course, the person in charge of writing up those scenarios doesn't get the appeal of their pairings.

 

And I've said this before too, but they didn't even need to make NH/SS canon to satisfy the remnant of nH/SS fans. Multiverse this kitten. Hell, use the diablos ex machina nature of the kaguya fight to establish that there are alternate time lines. Make everybody happy and show versions of events where NS/NH/SS occur. Would it have really been that bad to follow up on a relationship you spent most of the show developing (so-called red herrings be damned)?

 

Hell, make Boruto a time traveling shinobi trying to fix a catastrophic event that is going to destroy all of the timelines and make the premise of the show having him and Sasuke bounce around timelines trying to fix things and avoid a colossal incoming disaster (which would also be a great way to let us explore events prior the series in a way that is not hamfisted such as what we saw in the war arc). Maybe that's the reason Sasuke spends so much of his time alone to the point where he cannot even spend with his family. Maybe that's the reason Naruto does not have time to spend with his family despite having shadow clones? There are so many ways Boruto could have had a good story, but they put what could have been the flagship of shounen manga in the hands of a man with the imagination of a freaking potato! I swear! Naruto is the Darth Vader of anime/manga. Infinite potential SQUANDERED because of poor decision making. Now all we have left is a but a mere shell of what could have been. Such a pity. 

 

Kishimoto wanted to show how much Sasuke changed and was "lost in the darkness"  and used Sakura to prove the point.
You know, his old teammate and the only girl who was popular enough to be shipped with Sasuke.
(Nobody cares about Karin aside from using her to make Sasuke stay away from Sakura or troll SasuSaku)

I'm certain SasuSaku fans hates as well Sasuke and Sakura in Kage Summit. Even most of the Sakura's fans hated her being used as damsel in distress and the Fake confession in this arc.

But the vast of majority of SasuSaku popularity come from part 1.
So Sasuke's sorry and the Forehead Poke was enough to SasuSaku fans pardon Sasuke, just like it was for Sakura.

Also  Happy Pink Girl and Angry Emo Boy chemistry.

 

From what I've seen, the popularity of SasuSaku is primarily wish fulfillment amongst many female readers (same goes for NaruHina amongst male readers). Regardless of whether people started liking it in part 1, Kishimoto went out of his way to eviscerate it in part 2 and did not even make the slightest amount of effort to give it any redeeming characteristics until the final two chapters in a 700 chapter manga. Even when given the opportunity to give some credence to what the basis of the relationship even is, Kishimoto simply has Kakashi utter the infamous (not to mention lazy writer's out) phrase that "love does not read a reason." I could give you full blown essays on why SasuSaku and everything it stands for is an abomination. It's that bad.

Another thing that pisses me off about SasuSaku is that it is so UNEARNED. You two have ZERO CHEMISTRY and have shown ZERO character development together that gets you to this point! No slow buildup or anything that gets Sasuke to the point of being this comfortable around Sakura. All of this is simply shoved down on our throats. Even something as simple as Sasuke showing some degree of HESITATION during one of the several times he attempted to MURDER her would be something, but no. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Such terrible writing.

Hell, at least Toriyama gets around the randomness of Vegeta x Bulma by initially making it a short fling from a one night stand and slowly showing them play off each other's personalities. Sakura is literally not allowed to be herself around Sasuke and neither ever plays off the other's personality. They are just there. Sadly, neither Naruto nor Hinata are ever shown playing off each other's personalities either.🤮

They finally let Ash become the world champion in the recent episodes so I think him getting with Serena and us seeing a timeskip is pretty likely at this point. Also, looks like he is about to catch Mew.

I wish tokai would just skip all of the toners parts that are literally copy/pasted from the film.

I'm enjoying this so far. At some point  you guys gotta get over the pairings to be honest. I have no feelings seeing SasuSaku and ya'll should do the same.  I'm here for Sakura content.

In my mind, it's the equivalent of watching Harry Potter and Voldemort galavanting around hogwarts like they're old chums simply because the writer said so. It's not about pairings; it's about good writing. And the character assassination Kishimoto had to do to get these characters to this point makes it very hard to read.🤣🤣🤣

Sakura is not allowed to be herself when she is with Sasuke. Also, Sasuke apparently acts out of character too. Glad I stopped reading this crap.🤣🤣🤣

So, any opinions on the new Sasuke manga that's been released?

Garbage.

It just dawned on me that we've spent the past year on a part of the movie nobody (including Hinata fans) cares about!