749 replies to this topic

[Bail o' Lies]

I'm finally back to writing again.... chanting *not going to make kishi's mistakes, not going to make kishi's mistakes!*

 

Yes, I've wondered to if the dramatic story shift isn't because of Kishi having to work on it exclusively and continuously from about age 20/21 to 40/41. There's a lot of differences in those ages!! Single to dating, married to having children!! And I definitely think that softening, becoming more aware of Japan's social issues right now leaked into the story and characters.

 

It's a shame he couldn't have stopped at some point, taken a break, let the story breath, then gone back and read Naruto from the beginning again. Maybe he could have remembered what the story was about before committing to an ending that was so out-of-whack with the main hero. 

 

He knew the parings were and why nH and ss didn't mesh with his story. That's part of the reason why the last chapter felt so miserable. Also you can blame the pairings on his staff. Which led to both it and the last abandoning all the morals and character arcs so hinata could get what she wanted. So that all depends on if he caved to them or not.

 

Now before the ending that maybe different. Since like i said the goal of naruto before pein arc could be summed up as "Reform the ninja system" after the pein arc it was all about "ending the cycle of hatred" -after minato gave his speech about that and early jiraiya mention the prophecy it what naruto's arc became about other then sasuke- and I'm honestly not sure if it was kishi or the editors who did that. Either because kishi didn't know the goal of Naruto becoming hokage and the message it was suppose to send (stand up to corruption and reform you system of government if it is corrupt) because yahagi was incharge of that. Or if every new editor saw those bits and thought that was the tangible (or at least the check mark goal to say he did accomplish the thing he set out to do) end goal of naruto other then saving sasuke.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: In the very early stage of the series (before chapter 100), Kishi didn't have any set pairing in mind. Instead, he only has standby and see who works. For example, he only tested waters to see if NaruHina would be ideal, but maybe due to reasons, he didn't continue on; thus, start testing with NaruSaku.

In other words, he only testing these potentials and had no intention to make anyone canon.

Agree or disagree?

[rocci]

Statement: In the very early stage of the series (before chapter 100), Kishi didn't have any set pairing in mind. Instead, he only has standby and see who works. For example, he only tested waters to see if NaruHina would be ideal, but maybe due to reasons, he didn't continue on; thus, start testing with NaruSaku.

In other words, he only testing these potentials and had no intention to make anyone canon.

Agree or disagree?

Disagree to some extent.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Disagree to some extent.

Explain if you don't mind.

[Skarrow]

Statement: In the very early stage of the series (before chapter 100), Kishi didn't have any set pairing in mind. Instead, he only has standby and see who works. For example, he only tested waters to see if NaruHina would be ideal, but maybe due to reasons, he didn't continue on; thus, start testing with NaruSaku.

In other words, he only testing these potentials and had no intention to make anyone canon.

Agree or disagree?

 

Disagree. Kishimoto just wanted to write about a boy who ate at a ramen stand and solved other customers' problems by talking to them. Other people told him to add in more stuff, and thus we got a cool elite rival, and the token love interest in chapter 3. Sakura literally exists just so Naruto would focus on Sasuke and introduce him to the readers, because he dislikes Sasuke so much that if it weren't for Sakura prompting him, he'd never look at Sasuke, period. Proof? Well, I could probably let it slide if chapter 3 was titled "Sasuke and Sakura!" but it's titled "Uchiha Sasuke!", making it clear who's of real importance here. Heck, the reason why Naruto likes Sakura? It's because she wants acknowledgement from Sasuke!

 

And Hinata was just one of many characters who got created on the fly just to fill in the numbers for the Chuunin Exams arc. Her role was the same as Sakura's: to put the spotlight on Neji.

 

If he was testing out a pairing, there's no question that it's SNS

Edited by Skarrow, 20 April 2016 - 02:57 PM.

[rocci]

Explain if you don't mind.

I will do it later.
It has something to do with berserk couple, gutsxcasca.

@skarrow
Nice job.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: In the very early stage of the series (before chapter 100), Kishi didn't have any set pairing in mind. Instead, he only has standby and see who works. For example, he only tested waters to see if NaruHina would be ideal, but maybe due to reasons, he didn't continue on; thus, start testing with NaruSaku.

In other words, he only testing these potentials and had no intention to make anyone canon.

Agree or disagree?

I have to disagree. Even if he didn't plan to have an actual canon pairing, I see at least that NS would have been "close but that's your interpretation to lead it canon or not." I don't mind not closing in and just have a strong bond ending, but the one we got is a poor choice since it's doing the hardest to act like everything we went through never happened. That and retcon.

I know the series is long but people can remember that far. It's a shame when whatever they have, they may or may not realize that they have something good building up, but either foolish to not recognize or don't care about it ends up ruining the point. Sometimes, their personal preference can ruin it as well.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: There are people that have, for lack of better word "fetish," where they can't help but insert something that they truly like to use time after time. Mashima is said to be a prevert for having way too many fan service in obvious angle shots, or how Michael Bay loves to explode for making it dramatic. These are examples. That said Kishimoto seems to like either obvious parallels or near yaoi bromance or both, almost as a fetish.

Agree or disagree?

[rocci]

@touken
On one hand I don't think he's a fudanshi(the yaoi fanboy).
But the fact that naruto story is a not really so romantic broke back mountain make me must say yes, I agree.

Then again togashi himself has that kind of fetish and his story telling is far superior than kishi ever hope to achive.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I can't say he is one but he does seem to like too much of bromance. Nothing wrong with that, but it's like his story can't survive without emphasizing heavily on it.

[rocci]

I can't say he is one but he does seem to like too much of bromance. Nothing wrong with that, but it's like his story can't survive without emphasizing heavily on it.

That because naruto vs sasuke is the last battle of the manga.
That's why their "bond" become the most important thing, atleast for kishi.

It's All about execution that clearly he doesn't do a good job with that. I mean what is kishi justification for their relationship outside of destiny and because I said so?

[TouKen4Life3g]

That because naruto vs sasuke is the last battle of the manga.
That's why their "bond" become the most important thing, atleast for kishi.

It's All about execution that clearly he doesn't do a good job with that. I mean what is kishi justification for their relationship outside of destiny and because I said so?

I mean look at overall. There are so many bromance reference. Even Danzo got one.

[rocci]

I mean look at overall. There are so many bromance reference. Even Danzo got one.

they're the plot that's why we got so many reference.
Danzo is sasuke parallel.

NS too got so many romance reference (only to abadon by kishi). Why? Because NS is the subplot.

Personally I don't like bromance borderline gay love. Even if I understand why he do that.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I have nothing against it but the way it was done was overused. I brought up Danzo because truth be told, there's no reason of bromance for him. It didn't add anything. It was like there because just is. Basically, the series was hammering in only that. So in a way, that's one of the reason why female characters were literally push aside.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 27 April 2016 - 01:47 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Statement: There are people that have, for lack of better word "fetish," where they can't help but insert something that they truly like to use time after time. Mashima is said to be a prevert for having way too many fan service in obvious angle shots, or how Michael Bay loves to explode for making it dramatic. These are examples. That said Kishimoto seems to like either obvious parallels or near yaoi bromance or both, almost as a fetish.

Agree or disagree?

Disagree. I don't think kishi focus on SNS is because of some fetish. As much as it is it was the only thing after a certain point in his story he had complete control  of and people liked. For part 1 and most of part 2 SNS was mostly a rivalry or a brotherly bond at most. Yes, Sasuke and Naruto were still set up as the opposites of each other light and dark ect but that was again because of the rivalry. If there was a shift it was after he got the new editors. I'm skipping parts but basically Naruto got stuck in limbo for development because in part because of the pairings he wanted NS they wanted nH and they didn't know what to do with the new messiah's goal of ending hatred in the world. So since he couldn't do anything with Naruto at point because they wanted nH Sasuke's plot became an escape for him since he wouldn't have to deal with arguments about pairings. So this led to even more focus on The Uchiha plots. This also made kishi take a closer look at Sasuke's goals, and his relationship to Naruto moving him up from final boss to at the very least co-protagonist.

 

I assume you are asking this because the Mitsuki one shot's objective was setting up BMB. The answer to that goes back to the Bolt movie being saved because it was basically just SNS. Which also saved the series since by that point they were far in the red. He didn't use any of the other pairing because he hated SS, couldn't use NS after the ending, and nH was the reason they were in such problems to being with. Since the bolt movie the franchise has basically relied on SNS to keep them afloat so it wouldn't get canceled. So when there were largely negative opinions of the Bolt manga before it even came out. Just flash a new pairing of sexy 12 year old boys for fans to fantasize about to make sure they keep the SNS fans on since they are more valuable then ss or nh fans (since they actually pay for stuff) to keep the new manga afloat.

 

So it isn't a fetish as much as it was to escape his conflict with his staff and now to keep the series afloat since the end pairings were worthless.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 27 April 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[BlackBird19]

Statement: There are people that have, for lack of better word "fetish," where they can't help but insert something that they truly like to use time after time. Mashima is said to be a prevert for having way too many fan service in obvious angle shots, or how Michael Bay loves to explode for making it dramatic. These are examples. That said Kishimoto seems to like either obvious parallels or near yaoi bromance or both, almost as a fetish.

Agree or disagree?

I would disagree that it's a fetish. I think it's much more of a cultural thing that caused the SNS bond to be so emphasized. It felt like that relationship was the only kind of bond Kishi felt comfortable writing on his own.

 

The warrior's bond of brotherhood with a fellow male comrade is entrenched in Japanese culture and history. Homosexuality among such warrior's was actually common and never looked down on by their culture even going back as far as the feudal era. So stories of close bonds between males is something that they are both accustomed to and comfortable with. The tales of men loving, honoring and remaining loyal to the death for their fellow comrade, lord or retainer have always been romanticized or celebrated by the people of Japan.

 

And considering that Kishi later seemed to be someone who came off as being more traditionalist than we thought, it seems to fit that he would be much more at ease writing about a bond between two males rather than a standard romance. To the point, he mentioned multiple times during the manga's run how he didn't feel comfortable writing romance.

 

As far as the parallels, it's an easy device to use in writing therefore good writers use them sparingly and only at a time to emphasize a plot point. Kishi has proven himself to be lacking as a writer, so his overuse of parallels is just a product of that.
 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'll say this: I don't think he has this fetish for innuendo yaoi pairing or more like bromance to the end, though parallel, I think he has that. Maybe. I may say it in Mitsuki one-shot, but that's only because it was so overdone that I was really convinced. After long process of thinking, I'll say it needs at least one more evidence.

Since he's going to do another work, I have to see what the next one will bring. If there's more the usual, then I'll be convinced. Granted, anyone can argue that Kishimoto is only doing it to draw attention, same can be said for Mashima in a way, doing fan service to keep men attention since it's something they can drool over, especially since Rave, his last work, didn't have that amount. That said it is possible that they have exposed themselves by doing so much of it.

As for Kishi, I do feel like parallel has more of a chance to be his fetish than bromance in a over the top scale. You can count with more than 10 men hands to see how many parallels he made, let alone similar story background, which also weakened the character since they are limited solely based on that. Like Obito could be handled much better, but his parallel to Naruto hindered him, so it came off your typical villain who is doing the wrong way.

I'll give him one more work before I can confirm it. Until then, I don't think he does. Maybe.

[rocci]

@touken
Parallel is serious bussinies in this manga touken.
It happen since chunin exam arc. I think it become a real deal when hiruzen or jiraiya reminence of generation after generation of team seven expy.

NS is the second most parallel, the biggest one is clearly narusasu.
Obito weakness is the execution.

[TouKen4Life3g]

That is also a weakness. But what I mean is that Obito just have to be similar. From being a Hokage as a dream to being an orphan, there is a limit to his character since he can't be like something "original" or still be a dark protagonist parallel but done not entirely similar.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Naruto sequel should have taken place in a far future (ex. 50 years later or so) in order to tackle more potentials to use its universe in a different timeline, as well as have a new character that doesn't need to be relative of Naruto. Think it as Legend of Korra.

Agree or disagree?