251 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

 

I think when you've killed as many people as Obito has then you have forfeited any right to demand anything like that. No matter how much he screams that he wants to make up for what he did, the victims are within their right to say F-you.  

 

He is entitled to nothing, but punishment and retribution. If he is given anything else then it is only as an act of mercy those he wronged chose to give to an unworthy wretch. 

 

Ah, I can see your point Kage Nate And I won't say that it's wrong. Not at all, but only that it is not what Obito wants but what ultimately is the choice to be made? will he be forgiven or won't he? I've made this argument before on the choice of forgiveness in one of my college essays. What people are torn about in forgiveness is whether or not they are forgiving the person or the act. Also what prompts them to forgive if at all. Let me cut down the bulk of my argument into two parts

 

Forgiving the person or the action.

 

First of all I'd like to ask, when you hold a grudge against someone is it because of them as a person or something that they did? If it is their actions that make you despise them then it is safe to say you hate the wrong committed, not the person itself really. Well I would argue that personally. If you just hate a person, even if they did nothing to you at all, that is a different matter. Anyways what I argued was that forgiveness is first of all whether you forgive the person or the action(s) they did. I differentiate hating the person and hating the act because you can like or dislike/hate a person, when they have done nothing to you, or anyone at all. It's called First impression isn't it? Like wise, you can admire a person but hate what they have done. Does that make sense? The essential thing here is what you forgive here, the wrong done or the person. If you cannot forgive the act, then I would agree because no wrong against another human being should be forgiven. Destroying lives is definitely not something that should be forgiven, or else we're asking for the same thing to happen again. the person on the other hand is only that, a person. To hate a person and for it to be justified, we must examine the individual and understand what or who drives them, why and how it drives them. If it is something that you can relate to, and makes them more sympathetic, then it'd be pretty hard to hate them right? And if you still hate them because you still despise what they did then that is just moves back to hating the action I would say.

 

Reasons for forgiving

 

Why do we forgive someone? that is a question I usually ask myself and others. (though not directly to their faces heh heh) Is it because we believe that it makes us the better person? Or that we believe that it will give us some sort of reward or benefit e.g. a better afterlife or something like that? but what if that is not the case? What if forgiving someone does not grant us a paradise after death, or we don't get what we want after trying so hard to forgive someone? And I would say that not one person on this earth is better or worse than another. Why? Because we are all human beings, and to be human is to be flawed. No one is a complete goody two shoes, nor are they a complete monster, and if they seem that way it's because it's either a choice or something beyond their control because of how their brain functions. Back on topic, the point is , even if we don't become better individuals than others or we don't benefit from forgiving, would we still forgive? I would say that is ultimately what decides a person's character. Would someone do something good or evil ( however those are interpreted), even if they do not benefit from it? Who knows? that is a choice ultimately.

 

anyways The point of that essay was to call people out to reflect on their beliefs and morals. What do they forgive and why do they forgive? And this poses the same question to Obito too. Do we hate him, and if so Why, and why not for the exact opposite answer? Is there nothing redeemable about him? Do we really hate him, or do we hate what he did? And most of all, how does each of our own individual choice reflect on us when we judge him? I just  want everyone to consult their most genuine thoughts before deciding on this, that is all. That is, I do not want anyone here deciding based on such thoughts like "He's a monster and I would would never do such a thing!!!" or "I totally feel him because I know I'd do the same thing too!!!" since (If I haven't made this clear enough) We're all human here and it is not in human nature to be absolutely sure of how to feel, think, or act at any given situation we're not prepared for. I want this to be based ultimately on this question, "How do I see this person/character as a human being even if I DON'T think, feel, or act like him? Not that it's easy to do I know, but try, though it's completely up to you. I won't say my thinking is right' to everyone, if anyone at all.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 November 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[narusakuforlife1667]

It was sweet seeing Naruto forgive Obito like that but what will come of Obito will he die or live

and there is still Madaras trump card I wonder what it is

[T XD]

I see some who still wonder what Madara's trump card is. We know that Madara's trump card is the hermit power and using it to attack Obito when he revealed it to Hashirama in 647.

Edited by T XD, 09 November 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Paptala]

Just wanted to add my two cents in to the discussion regarding Naruto and forgiving Obito.

 

Naruto isn't telling Obito, "Come back to our side and everyone will forgive you and it will rainbows and butterflies."  He isn't trying to give forgiveness on everyone's behalf - he isn't even really trying to give it on his own behalf.  He didn't say anything about forgiving Obito that I can recall.

 

Look at these two panels, the second one in particular:

 

Naruto is saying, "I get you're hurting a lot, and that you have serious issues.  But I can't let you continue this method of dealing with those issues when it involves everyone else.  You need to come back to Konoha to face the consequences of your actions/to make up for what you've done."  And I don't think that's unreasonable or unfair to anybody.

 

I can't see any other meaning for "compensate for what you did" other than facing the consequences of his actions.

 

As far as everyone else having the right to tell Obito to screw himself, that Obito isn't entitled to forgiveness or help from anyone, I agree. However, what good does holding onto hatred do?  It doesn't bring the people who died back.  It doesn't make anyone feel any better either.  Killing him isn't going to make them feel better either - look at how Sasuke was after he killed Itachi.  All it brought him was emptiness, despite having finally killed the person who he thought was responsible for the murder of his family.  Understanding doesn't have to lead to forgiveness, but it can help people get closure and to move forward with their lives at the very least.

 

I still think Obito is most likely going to be redeemed by sacrificing himself, but I just wanted to clarify that Naruto is not offering forgiveness without any strings attached here.

Edited by Paptala, 09 November 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I agree. It's more of a "see the world yourself with your old self" than "we have pizza!"

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Just wanted to add my two cents in to the discussion regarding Naruto and forgiving Obito.

 

Naruto isn't telling Obito, "Come back to our side and everyone will forgive you and it will rainbows and butterflies."  He isn't trying to give forgiveness on everyone's behalf - he isn't even really trying to give it on his own behalf.  He didn't say anything about forgiving Obito that I can recall.

 

Look at these two panels, the second one in particular:

 

Naruto is saying, "I get you're hurting a lot, and that you have serious issues.  But I can't let you continue this method of dealing with those issues when it involves everyone else.  You need to come back to Konoha to face the consequences of your actions/to make up for what you've done."  And I don't think that's unreasonable or unfair to anybody.

 

I can't see any other meaning for "compensate for what you did" other than facing the consequences of his actions.

 

As far as everyone else having the right to tell Obito to screw himself, that Obito isn't entitled to forgiveness or help from anyone, I agree. However, what good does holding onto hatred do?  It doesn't bring the people who died back.  It doesn't make anyone feel any better either.  Killing him isn't going to make them feel better either - look at how Sasuke was after he killed Itachi.  All it brought him was emptiness, despite having finally killed the person who he thought was responsible for the murder of his family.  Understanding doesn't have to lead to forgiveness, but it can help people get closure and to move forward with their lives at the very least.

 

I still think Obito is most likely going to be redeemed by sacrificing himself, but I just wanted to clarify that Naruto is not offering forgiveness without any strings attached here.

Disagree with you, he's not telling him to come back to konoha but rather going back to his side when he was a shinobi of the leaf and the whole "compensate for the things you did" is in a way to tell him that he should do the right thing.(Defeating Madara, Edo tensei, or even killing Orochimaru i dont know).

However i do agree that he's not offering forgiveness.

Naruto cant bring him back to the village for him to be in a jail forever or be executed because it goes against his ideals when on the Pain's arc he let him go.

 

The consequences that Obito is facing is the fact he betrayed his own desires and the fact Rin would not back up what he's right now, he doesnt care about the others, Naruto's TnJ is not telling him that he should care about the others and the village, in fact he's just telling him that he should not give up just because kitten happened on his life.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 09 November 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Nate River]

Just wanted to add my two cents in to the discussion regarding Naruto and forgiving Obito.
 
Naruto isn't telling Obito, "Come back to our side and everyone will forgive you and it will rainbows and butterflies."  He isn't trying to give forgiveness on everyone's behalf - he isn't even really trying to give it on his own behalf.  He didn't say anything about forgiving Obito that I can recall.
 
Look at these two panels, the second one in particular:


 
 
Naruto is saying, "I get you're hurting a lot, and that you have serious issues.  But I can't let you continue this method of dealing with those issues when it involves everyone else.  You need to come back to Konoha to face the consequences of your actions/to make up for what you've done."  And I don't think that's unreasonable or unfair to anybody.
 
I can't see any other meaning for "compensate for what you did" other than facing the consequences of his actions.

It's nothing but a bunch of meaningless, empty words to me. He didn't offer the same to Nagato. Moreover, Naruto is never going to have to put meaning to those words because Obito will die anyway. This is one of my core complaints with how Kishimoto handles these things, but as I said before, it's a little late to attempt that now. Until Naruto has to do that, I'll continue being skeptical.

But then, my last three posts weren't directed at Kishimoto. I have issues (mentioned above) with Kishimoto's approach, but it's better than some of the stuff I am seeing in the thread (James and Phantom, specifically). They were directed at those agitating for Obito's salvation. One the great boons of the 4th Great Ninja War being nothing but s Great Mook Massacre (+ Neji) is the audience can render them to a pile of statistics that they never had an attachment to and don't care about. Kishimoto's mass death count really is just a number. Consequently, I see all these words spilled about poor Obito and how much it sucks for him. Not too many seemed too concerned about those that died or even that bothered that he's about tear apart everyone else's lives because turned out poorly.

I don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that those posters would be satisfied with him be executed, which is what I imagine would be the normal method for someone like this, at least in this universe. Nor do I see how what they ask for is possible if he lives out his life in jail.
 
 

As far as everyone else having the right to tell Obito to screw himself, that Obito isn't entitled to forgiveness or help from anyone, I agree. However, what good does holding onto hatred do?  It doesn't bring the people who died back.  It doesn't make anyone feel any better either.  Killing him isn't going to make them feel better either - look at how Sasuke was after he killed Itachi.  All it brought him was emptiness, despite having finally killed the person who he thought was responsible for the murder of his family.  Understanding doesn't have to lead to forgiveness, but it can help people get closure and to move forward with their lives at the very least.

Sasuke only works if I am willing to presume that this is the predominate feeling from going so. It's a popular theory in literature, but I suspect it's far less universal than Kishimoto suggests that it is. Moreover, understanding itself is a crap shoot. Contrary to the portrayal in this series, not every one has a "good" or "tragic" reason for why they harm others. And even if they do, as I said before, there comes a point where I simply do not care.

Obito is a prime example. Obito's a mass murderer and at heart an massive authoritarian. I find his objective grotesque and his crimes even more so. Kishimoto has spent all this time trying to get the audience to understand him, and as I said to James, I cannot overstate how little I care. It's so puny in comparison, that I have little interest in even knowing it. I understand him and I still think he deserves to die and not by his own terms like Nagato. But, that really isn't the core my complaint with Kishimoto. My complaint with his is the sidestepping of the complications behind Naruto's approach. As far as the story is concerned, I'm not arguing based on what is moral, but from what is practical. To me, doing this only to execute him later seems to run counter to the message being sent and given the logic underlying the "cycle of hate" I'd be at a loss to see how that would be acceptable under those rules.

So lifetime incarceration? Given the things you can be killed for in Naruto, I have doubts that such a result would be universally well-received. And I agree with Darkrest, I'm not sure this is what Naruto has in mind either.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

It's nothing but a bunch of meaningless, empty words to me. He didn't offer the same to Nagato. Moreover, Naruto is never going to have to put meaning to those words because Obito will die anyway. This is one of my core complaints with how Kishimoto handles these things, but as I said before, it's a little late to attempt that now. Until Naruto has to do that, I'll continue being skeptical.

But then, my last three posts weren't directed at Kishimoto. I have issues (mentioned above) with Kishimoto's approach, but it's better than some of the stuff I am seeing in the thread (James and Phantom, specifically). They were directed at those agitating for Obito's salvation. One the great boons of the 4th Great Ninja War being nothing but s Great Mook Massacre (+ Neji) is the audience can render them to a pile of statistics that they never had an attachment to and don't care about. Kishimoto's mass death count really is just a number. Consequently, I see all these words spilled about poor Obito and how much it sucks for him. Not too many seemed too concerned about those that died or even that bothered that he's about tear apart everyone else's lives because turned out poorly.

I don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that those posters would be satisfied with him be executed, which is what I imagine would be the normal method for someone like this, at least in this universe. Nor do I see how what they ask for is possible if he lives out his life in jail.
 
 


Sasuke only works if I am willing to presume that this is the predominate feeling from going so. It's a popular theory in literature, but I suspect it's far less universal than Kishimoto suggests that it is. Moreover, understanding itself is a crap shoot. Contrary to the portrayal in this series, not every one has a "good" or "tragic" reason for why they harm others. And even if they do, as I said before, there comes a point where I simply do not care.

Obito is a prime example. Obito's a mass murderer and at heart an massive authoritarian. I find his objective grotesque and his crimes even more so. Kishimoto has spent all this time trying to get the audience to understand him, and as I said to James, I cannot overstate how little I care. It's so puny in comparison, that I have little interest in even knowing it. I understand him and I still think he deserves to die and not by his own terms like Nagato. But, that really isn't the core my complaint with Kishimoto. My complaint with his is the sidestepping of the complications behind Naruto's approach. As far as the story is concerned, I'm not arguing based on what is moral, but from what is practical. To me, doing this only to execute him later seems to run counter to the message being sent and given the logic underlying the "cycle of hate" I'd be at a loss to see how that would be acceptable under those rules.

So lifetime incarceration? Given the things you can be killed for in Naruto, I have doubts that such a result would be universally well-received. And I agree with Darkrest, I'm not sure this is what Naruto has in mind either.

Agree with you, it reminds me of Kakashi's father but i'll adress it later.

First if Nagato took up Naruto's offer and leave, the village would remain as it was destroyed and a high death count, then i might ask would he have the same "hero status"? 

In fact we dont know with Kakashi's fater he saved his friends but failed on the mission and despite that he was hated and dishonored.
Naruto would have to face a retaliation or people would hate him or would say things like "you should have killed him" and stuff, then Naruto would have to explain what he did and his decision would be more believable.
I always think like this, Naruto is not putting any effort to bring peace to the world but rather achieving it Naturally the things are being resolved around him without him effectivelly working around it, Obito's desire was to achieve peace on a illusion world but it was barely touched on this subject the whole fight turned out on "will Naruto give up" to a point that Obito give up, rather than discussing about peace on the battle and etc...

But i believe it's going to be touched on Naruto vs Sasuke fight.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 09 November 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Paptala]

I agree. It's more of a "see the world yourself with your old self" than "we have pizza!"

 

Haha, that's a unique way of putting it.

Disagree with you, he's not telling him to come back to konoha but rather going back to his side when he was a shinobi of the leaf and the whole "compensate for the things you did" is in a way to tell him that he should do the right thing.(Defeating Madara, Edo tensei, or even killing Orochimaru i dont know).

However i do agree that he's not offering forgiveness.

Naruto cant bring him back to the village for him to be in a jail forever or be executed because it goes against his ideals when on the Pain's arc he let him go.

 

The consequences that Obito is facing is the fact he betrayed his own desires and the fact Rin would not back up what he's right now, he doesnt care about the others, Naruto's TnJ is not telling him that he should care about the others and the village, in fact he's just telling him that he should not give up just because kitten happened on his life.

Bolded #1:  Looking at it again, you're right - he's not telling him to come back to Konoha specifically, just back to the Shinobi Alliance's side as a Konoha shinoboi.

 

"Compensate for what you did" could be "do the right thing," but I still read it as more, "Make up for what you did/face punishmnet" - but its not too big of a difference in the end anyway, I suppose.

 

Bolded #2:  I guess I agree that executing him does seem to go against what Naruto wanted to prevent (killing other shinobis for what they did), but life in prison certainly doesn't.  No death there.  We don't know that Naruto was going to let Nagato go - he said he wasn't going to kill him, and then Nagato gave up his life.  We know for sure that Naruto said he didn't forgive him at that point.

 

Bolded #3:  I don't really agree with this - I don't think he's trying to tell Obito either of those things.  The main point is trying to make Obito realize he's deluding himself about not caring about anything anymore, and to make him face reality about how he feels and what he's doing.  I don't really see where he's telling Obito not to give up - I see more along the lines of him saying, "don't take out your problems on everyone else."

 

It's nothing but a bunch of meaningless, empty words to me. He didn't offer the same to Nagato. Moreover, Naruto is never going to have to put meaning to those words because Obito will die anyway. This is one of my core complaints with how Kishimoto handles these things, but as I said before, it's a little late to attempt that now. Until Naruto has to do that, I'll continue being skeptical.

But then, my last three posts weren't directed at Kishimoto. I have issues (mentioned above) with Kishimoto's approach, but it's better than some of the stuff I am seeing in the thread (James and Phantom, specifically). They were directed at those agitating for Obito's salvation. One the great boons of the 4th Great Ninja War being nothing but s Great Mook Massacre (+ Neji) is the audience can render them to a pile of statistics that they never had an attachment to and don't care about. Kishimoto's mass death count really is just a number. Consequently, I see all these words spilled about poor Obito and how much it sucks for him. Not too many seemed too concerned about those that died or even that bothered that he's about tear apart everyone else's lives because turned out poorly.

I don't get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that those posters would be satisfied with him be executed, which is what I imagine would be the normal method for someone like this, at least in this universe. Nor do I see how what they ask for is possible if he lives out his life in jail.
 

Sasuke only works if I am willing to presume that this is the predominate feeling from going so. It's a popular theory in literature, but I suspect it's far less universal than Kishimoto suggests that it is. Moreover, understanding itself is a crap shoot. Contrary to the portrayal in this series, not every one has a "good" or "tragic" reason for why they harm others. And even if they do, as I said before, there comes a point where I simply do not care.

Obito is a prime example. Obito's a mass murderer and at heart an massive authoritarian. I find his objective grotesque and his crimes even more so. Kishimoto has spent all this time trying to get the audience to understand him, and as I said to James, I cannot overstate how little I care. It's so puny in comparison, that I have little interest in even knowing it. I understand him and I still think he deserves to die and not by his own terms like Nagato. But, that really isn't the core my complaint with Kishimoto. My complaint with his is the sidestepping of the complications behind Naruto's approach. As far as the story is concerned, I'm not arguing based on what is moral, but from what is practical. To me, doing this only to execute him later seems to run counter to the message being sent and given the logic underlying the "cycle of hate" I'd be at a loss to see how that would be acceptable under those rules.

So lifetime incarceration? Given the things you can be killed for in Naruto, I have doubts that such a result would be universally well-received. And I agree with Darkrest, I'm not sure this is what Naruto has in mind either.

I can't speak for any other posters here - I can only give you my own view on things.

 

I get where you're coming from, even if I don't really share the same mindset.  Obito has done a lot of terrible things, and the reasons that Kishimoto has been throwing out are not nearly strong enough to justify his actions in anyway, or even bring all that much sympathy for him, if any.  So its incredibly hard to swallow (and distasteful) to see Naruto forgive him for him atrocities, and by extension, essentially force others to forgive him as well.

 

Personally, I don't really care for the whole, "No killing, world peace" thing Kishimoto is having Naruto shoot for (or more accurately, how he's handling it).  I didn't care for Nagato's TnJ - Naruto's answer was unsatisfying to me and didn't feel like it was really answering the question at all (how are you going to confront hatred - simply by not killing?), and Nagato's change in mindset came about way too quickly for me based on that unsatisfactory answer.  And I hated the mass revival - it was cheap and a cop out to boot.

 

For me, Obito's TnJ is much more palatable in comparison - its been going on essentially ever since Obito's identity was revealed, Obito didn't give in quickly and fought back some (if he has in fact actually given in now), and Naruto's words seem much less idealistic than what he was telling Nagato.  This isn't about everyone understanding everyone, its just about stopping Obito from taking his issues out on everyone else and making him face reality in the process.  At least, that's how I see it.  Though I think Nagato had immensely better reasons for his actions, I think the actual TnJ itself is being handled better here.

 

Bolded #1:  We don't know what he was going to offer Nagato, IIRC.  All we know is that Naruto wasn't going to kill him, that he hadn't actually forgiven Nagato, and then Nagato sacrificed himself for the mass ressurection.

 

Though I agree Naruto is not likely going to have to put meaning to his words, as I agree Obito is most likely going to die in a similar manner to Nagato (or there's always the chance that Madara will kill him).

 

Bolded #2:  I disagree here - I don't think understanding is a crapshoot, I think it's pretty significant.  Though this is purely a personal opinion, and I completely respect your right to believe otherwise. 

 

I do agree that not everyone has a "good" or "tragic" reason for what they do, but at the same time, I think that oftentimes they do.  I think the people who are just naturally that selfish and uncaring that they commit the sort of attrocities Obito did, born psychopaths, are rare.  I think most people have some sort of enviornmental influence that led them to being the way they are, especially younger people - which is why juvenile court systems are designed more for rehabilitation than punishment, and why rehabilitation is still an important public policy goal overall in the criminal justice system.

 

Though it doesn't absolve them of their crimes, I think this is where understanding comes into play in an important way.  If you can understand the causes of certain criminal behavior, you can work on addressing problems before they lead to the creation of these sorts of people and try to lower crime rates.  Addressing the underlying problem is the better long term solution - understand why Nagto or Obito or Sasuke have turned out this way and maybe you can have less of those kinds of people in the future.  Which is exactly what Minato was telling Naruto back in the Pein arc.  The current ninja system does not work and leads to the creation of these mentally unstable people, either directly from its teachings or indirectly by being victims of people who are indoctrinated with these teachings.

 

On the other hand, I do feel that Kishimoto has brought up a lot of heavy issues and doesn't really handle or resolve them well at all (Nagato and Obito both being good examples, imo).  As you said, execution would seem to go against Naruto's ideals at this point, which, while it doesn't seem realistic in a world of shinobis, is not too unrealistic since from what I can understand most developed countries in the world don't publicly approve of capital punishment anymore

 

In the end though, Naruto is an idealisic story rather than a realitisic one, so I tend not to dwell on these sorts of short comings from this manga.

Edited by Paptala, 09 November 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[megi]

"And compensate for what you did normally"

How strange that sounds.

 

Read the raw and that whole panel reads as 

"Come to this side as Obito Uchiha, as a shinobi of the leaf, and I'll have you atone for your crimes properly."

(edited the spelling error)

 

I don't know if it affects anyone's discussion.

Edited by megi, 09 November 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Sounds like how Wonder Woman in the old days would say when tied to a rope. Lol. But yeah, pretty much get the right charges. It's like don't go deeper than it's already is.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

"And compensate for what you did normally"

How strange that sounds.

 

Read the raw and that whole panel reads as 

"Come to this side as Obito Uchiha, as a shinobi of the leaf, and I'll have to atone for your crimes properly."

 

I don't know if it affects anyone's discussion.

 

So basically, Naruto is telling Obito that he must face the consequences of his choices as a leaf shinobi. I just wish there was some way of knowing what that means, how does the leaf punish traitors? I'm not sure if that was ever made clear.   And there is still the issue that Obito's crimes go way beyond affecting just Konoha, he singlehandedly started a war. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Maybe instead of execution, it can be jailed for life.

[megi]

I'm sorry, I meant to write 

"Come to this side as Obito Uchiha, as a shinobi of the leaf, and I'll have you atone for your crimes properly."

 

Not sure what Naruto's gonna do with Obito. I want the war to be over, that is all. I doubt Obito will survive the war though.

[Nate River]

"And compensate for what you did normally"
How strange that sounds.
 
Read the raw and that whole panel reads as 
"Come to this side as Obito Uchiha, as a shinobi of the leaf, and I'll have you atone for your crimes properly."
(edited the spelling error)
 
I don't know if it affects anyone's discussion.

Not for me because Naruto is not likely to ever to define what he means by that. I know what it sounds like, but I wouldn't bet on anything as Naruto has frequently gone against the grain as to what is expected in the ninja world.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well Sasuke is charged with death due to his crimes so they still has the capital punishment despite they having over on top technologies on certain areas they still live on a feudal japan based world.

 

 

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 November 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[Paptala]

"And compensate for what you did normally"

How strange that sounds.

 

Read the raw and that whole panel reads as 

"Come to this side as Obito Uchiha, as a shinobi of the leaf, and I'll have you atone for your crimes properly."

(edited the spelling error)

 

I don't know if it affects anyone's discussion.

Thanks so much for clarifying that!  I thought it might be one of those weird translations.  Nice to know it means what I thought it meant.

 

 

So basically, Naruto is telling Obito that he must face the consequences of his choices as a leaf shinobi. I just wish there was some way of knowing what that means, how does the leaf punish traitors? I'm not sure if that was ever made clear.   And there is still the issue that Obito's crimes go way beyond affecting just Konoha, he singlehandedly started a war. 

You and me both.  It would be interesting to see how punishment and atonement work when Naruto no longer believes in killing, and thinks understanding is so important.  Too bad that its not an issue Kishimoto is likely to ever really touch on to begin with, but still, I would imagine that at the very least, its more than just forgiving him without strings attached or a simple apology/explanation for his actions to his living victims.  Again, I don't see why imprisonment, sealing off chakra permanently, etc. would be objectionable to Naruto, though I suppose many would hardly find those fitting punishments for the crimes Obito has committed at this point.

Not for me because Naruto is not likely to ever to define what he means by that. I know what it sounds like, but I wouldn't bet on anything as Naruto has frequently gone against the grain as to what is expected in the ninja world.

This is a good point - perhaps Naruto really does mean Obito just needs to come back and apologize and explain his actions to his living victims.  It really is a shame that we aren't going to see what he means by peoper atonement, but again, at least its better than just him talking about forgiveness and understanding.

 

Well Sasuke is charged with death due to his crimes so they still has the capital punishment despite they having over on top technologies on certain areas they still live on a feudal japan based world.

I'm aware the shinobi countries all have capital punishment and that their world is currently based on a different system of values and rules.  What I was trying to say is that Naruto's seeming aversion to it and desire to no longer use killing as a means of retribution isn't so unrealistic as to be laughable or beyond the point where you can no longer suspend your disbelief, because many real world countries are no longer supporting it.  Just because executions are no longer likely as punishments doesn't mean that there isn't going to be any more proper punishments.  As I mentioned above, there could be permanent sealing off of chakra, or imprisonment, for example.  Villains don't always get their comeuppance with death either - look at Hidan (buried alive and immobile) or Kabuto (stuck in a looping genjutsu until he changes his mindset).  Maybe Kishi will get creative with Obito too.

Edited by Paptala, 10 November 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Transformers03]

Since I don't come on this site as often as I do, I am always amazed the amount writing you guys go through describing your interpretation of the series. If only I could write that much for my essays.

 

In all seriousness though, this debate about Naruto and Obito is quite fascinating. While I don't think it was Kishi's intention, and it is only us whom make the situation more complex than it really is, it doesn't make it any less interesting. For the most part, I agree with Paptala, though it upsets me that we are properly not going to see an aftermath of war were Obito lives. Even though Obito sacrificing himself, or dyeing in the war will be find in of itself, I think seeing how Obito would be punish and how everyone reacts to it would be very interesting. The characters could be having the same arguments we are having now, and makes readers question who would be right or wrong in the discussion. However having Obito die in the war avoids that complications, which is probably the reason why Kishi would want to kill him off in the war, and it would be probably be for the best. The war lasted long enough as is, I guess adding an aftermath would be too much to ask for readers, especially now the war has lasted for years now.

 

Though if the war was shorter, and instead the manga focused more on the aftermath on the war as its final arc, than I maybe more invested in it. See the characters recover from the trauma they undoubtedly would go through (unless Naruto would like to skim over that aspect of War), know which characters survived, witness how the shinobi world changes after the war, and many more. Those aspects of war I care more about than the actual war, which is why I never wanted the war to happen in the first place. It would focus to much on action, rather than the drama that is brought because of war. Kishi could've done a good job with that drama, because the manga has done drama well in the past (early team 7 parts, and the summit arc). But no, we just have this overlong war, and Naruto trying to help a villain who has an underdeveloped motive (FYI, I still Obito as a character, but his motivation is kind of lame).

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Thanks so much for clarifying that!  I thought it might be one of those weird translations.  Nice to know it means what I thought it meant.

 

You and me both.  It would be interesting to see how punishment and atonement work when Naruto no longer believes in killing, and thinks understanding is so important.  Too bad that its not an issue Kishimoto is likely to ever really touch on to begin with, but still, I would imagine that at the very least, its more than just forgiving him without strings attached or a simple apology/explanation for his actions to his living victims.  Again, I don't see why imprisonment, sealing off chakra permanently, etc. would be objectionable to Naruto, though I suppose many would hardly find those fitting punishments for the crimes Obito has committed at this point.

This is a good point - perhaps Naruto really does mean Obito just needs to come back and apologize and explain his actions to his living victims.  It really is a shame that we aren't going to see what he means by peoper atonement, but again, at least its better than just him talking about forgiveness and understanding.

 

I'm aware the shinobi countries all have capital punishment and that their world is currently based on a different system of values and rules.  What I was trying to say is that Naruto's seeming aversion to it and desire to no longer use killing as a means of retribution isn't so unrealistic as to be laughable or beyond the point where you can no longer suspend your disbelief, because many real world countries are no longer supporting it.  Just because executions are no longer likely as punishments doesn't mean that there isn't going to be any more proper punishments.  As I mentioned above, there could be permanent sealing off of chakra, or imprisonment, for example.  Villains don't always get their comeuppance with death either - look at Hidan (buried alive and immobile) or Kabuto (stuck in a looping genjutsu until he changes his mindset).  Maybe Kishi will get creative with Obito too.

Shikamaru was going to kill Hidan but Hidan was immortal.

Kabuto was a spy on different countries and he literally has no identity at least no even their former friends know who he is or his whereabouts, in fact it's easy for him to return to his orphanage because no one would know about the things he did on the past.

And the fact he had no identity he wanted to creat his own by surpassing Orochimaru, and picking up the talents of other people.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 November 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[kousuke88]

So.. when is the new chapter will come out?