756 replies to this topic

[Derock]

Really, he did? I've never heard that before. It worked fine, because no one cares about Yamcha.

 

That was explained many years ago. I originally thought that VegetaXBulma was created for the sake of Trunks' existence to make some sense instead of inserting some new random Saiyan out of nowhere.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

IDK why all these shounen guys think romance is hard to write. Its honestly a simple formula 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 04 December 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[DrK]

IDK why all these shounen guys thing romance is hard to write. Its honestly a simple formula 

He did fine writing it. He just needed to keep writing it, instead of writing what people told him to write. Cause those people were complete idiots to think it would work even a little bit.

 

Like seriously, were they on crack? This isn't the kind of development that you can retcon. It makes the whole story a clusterkitten.

Edited by DrK, 04 December 2017 - 12:31 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

well true, Kishimoto built a GOOD healthy relationship in NS.  In which two people came together to support one another through better or worse. Where either of them were willing and wanting to shoulder the burdens the other one was carrying. Years and years ago I mentioned that there was a poem that just screamed NS to me:
 

Most like an arch—an entrance which upholds

and shores the stone-crush up the air like lace.

Mass made idea, and idea held in place.

A lock in time. Inside half-heaven unfolds.

 

Most like an arch—two weaknesses that lean

into a strength. Two fallings become firm.

Two joined abeyances become a term

naming the fact that teaches fact to mean.

 

Not quite that? Not much less. World as it is,

what’s strong and separate falters. All I do

at piling stone on stone apart from you

is roofless around nothing. Till we kiss

 

I am no more than upright and unset.

It is by falling in and in we make

the all-bearing point, for one another’s sake,

in faultless failing, raised by our own weight.
-John Ciardi. 

Its as true now as it was then;Those are the sentiments that make a GOOD romantic relationship. Naruto was earth and Sakura was heaven. her strengths off set his weaknesses and vice versa. Until Kishimoto fumbled it. Or rather threw the game on purpose because he has no "Will of Fire." for himself. 

Still, its like Every Shounen Author "Romance is haaard." No....its not, surely you've been in love at least once. Think about why and how it made you feel FFS. Why'd you marry your wife, why did you have that crush once upon a time. What makes a relationship successful on a more then surface level?   

 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

IDK why all these shounen guys think romance is hard to write. Its honestly a simple formula 

Some get it right. Look at Ruorni Kenshin and Busou Renkin.. XD They nail it in romance and they're shonen series too

[RulesofNature]

Whenever I think about the romance between Garrod and Tiffa (Gundam X), it gives me the fuzzies. It worked because the show knew how to show romance rather than to tell the audience they are in love. This is something I never got out of Naruto outside of NaruSaku.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Whenever I think about the romance between Garrod and Tiffa (Gundam X), it gives me the fuzzies. It worked because the show knew how to show romance rather than to tell the audience they are in love. This is something I never got out of Naruto outside of NaruSaku.

 

I've seen it done well in many series with interactions, even when they are shonen and don't see like they WOULD go with romance in the long run. BTW, nice avatar XD

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 04 December 2017 - 02:30 AM.

[DrK]

Chunin exam written test.
 












 
What happens? Team 7 is taking the written test. Sakura is worried because Naruto isn't smart. Then, the proctor announces the tenth question. Anyone who gets it wrong will be a Genin forever. Anyone who wants to avoid this fate should raise their hand now and thereby fail their entire team. This troubles Sakura because she sees Naruto as "different" from her and Sasuke. Not because he's stupid, although he is, but because he has a lofty dream that Sakura wants to protect. She thinks to herself that she doesn't want to see it crushed and slowly raises her hand, but Naruto interrupts her. The question ends up being a trick so they are fine.
 
Why does she do this? She wanted to protect Naruto's dream. This is something that the Sakura in early part 1 would never have even considered doing. Character progression which Kishi ended up stealing from her.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Yeah.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? No, she likes Sasuke. But you have to consider something. How would Sasuke have reacted if Sakura caused their team to fail? He would have deeply resented Sakura for a long time. He would never have returned her feelings. Not that he was going to anyway, but Sakura wouldn't know this. She WOULD absolutely have known that there would be dire consequences for this action of hers in terms of her relations with Sasuke.
 
Ergo, she put Naruto above Sasuke, even if her thought process didn't clearly indicate this. Maybe she didn't even realize it herself. But she did put Naruto first, because she was very slowly falling for him.

 

Not only did she pick Naruto over Sasuke, but she had a smile on her face while she was doing it. She was completely sure that that was what she wanted to do.

 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? It's an indication that Sakura is eventually going to end up with Naruto. I have been thinking recently that other than the fake confession, her confession in part 1 really did a lot of damage to how people viewed Sakura. Nobody ever remembers these moments from Part 1. They just remember that Sakura was the girl who confessed pathetically to Sasuke. If she never did that, it could still be inferred that both her and Naruto thought she loved Sasuke from the POAL. And it would have had the benefit of not creating an anti-Sakura fanbase.
 
It's not Sakura's job to protect Naruto or his dream. He can succeed or fail on his own. You don't see Sasuke worrying about this. But Sakura goes out of her way because Naruto is important to her and she feels invested in him. It shows Sakura is always the one that really cares about Naruto and watches out for him. So why did she stop?
 
Rating: 3. If she loves Sasuke, why is she willing to completely alienate him? Answer that. Why is it that Naruto is more important even THIS EARLY? If he was more important this early, how was it that he wasn't more important at the end after they both saved each other's lives and did everything together?
 
The only explanation is that Kishimoto changed his plans and screwed everyone over. But no one more than Sakura.
 

 
This is who Sakura was. She was so worried for Naruto. She cared about all her friends. She cared about Sasuke, but she cared about Naruto just as much if not even more. And she's really young here. She was a terrible kunoichi and at this point she knew it. This was the only point where she had an advantage over anyone with her knowledge. But she was willing to throw that away and disqualify herself because she didn't want to see Naruto's dream crushed.
 
But later, she's gonna lie to Naruto about loving him when Sai told her Naruto loves her? That wouldn't make Naruto feel crushed when he finds out? She's gonna confess to Sasuke right in front of Naruto? That wouldn't make Naruto feel crushed? She's gonna leave Konoha with Sasuke, leaving Naruto to pursue his dream on his own? That wouldn't crush Naruto?
 
It's irrelevant if any of these things actually did hurt Naruto. Sakura would have considered the possibility that they would have and want to prevent it at all costs. So the ending made her OOC. There's no getting around this.

Edited by DrK, 06 December 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

Chunin exam written test.
 












 
What happens? Team 7 is taking the written test. Sakura is worried because Naruto isn't smart. Then, the proctor announces the tenth question. Anyone who gets it wrong will be a Genin forever. Anyone who wants to avoid this fate should raise their hand now and thereby fail their entire team. This troubles Sakura because she sees Naruto as "different" from her and Sasuke. Not because he's stupid, although he is, but because he has a lofty dream that Sakura wants to protect. She thinks to herself that she doesn't want to see it crushed and slowly raises her hand, but Naruto interrupts her. The question ends up being a trick so they are fine.
 
Why does she do this? She wanted to protect Naruto's dream. This is something that the Sakura in early part 1 would never have even considered doing. Character progression which Kishi ended up stealing from her.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Yeah.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? No, she likes Sasuke. But you have to consider something. How would Sasuke have reacted if Sakura caused their team to fail? He would have deeply resented Sakura for a long time. He would never have returned her feelings. Not that he was going to anyway, but Sakura wouldn't know this. She WOULD absolutely have known that there would be dire consequences for this action of hers in terms of her relations with Sasuke.

 
Ergo, she put Naruto above Sasuke, even if her thought process didn't clearly indicate this. Maybe she didn't even realize it herself. But she did, because she was very slowly falling for Naruto.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? It's an indication that Sakura is eventually going to end up with Naruto. I have been thinking recently that other than the fake confession, her confession in part 1 really did a lot of damage to how people viewed Sakura. Nobody ever remembers these moments from Part 1. They just remember that Sakura was the girl who confessed pathetically to Sasuke. If she never did that, it could still be inferred that both her and Naruto thought she loved Sasuke from the POAL. And it would have had the benefit of not creating an anti-Sakura fanbase.
 
It's not Sakura's job to protect Naruto or his dream. He can succeed or fail on his own. You don't see Sasuke worrying about this. But Sakura goes out of her way because Naruto is important to her and she feels invested in him. It shows Sakura is always the one that really cares about Naruto and watches out for him. So why did she stop?
 
Rating: 3. If she loves Sasuke, why is she willing to completely alienate him? Answer that. Why is it that Naruto is more important even THIS EARLY? If he was more important this early, how was it that he wasn't more important at the end after they both saved each other's lives and did everything together?
 
The only explanation is that Kishimoto changed his plans and screwed everyone over. But no one more than Sakura.
 

 
This is who Sakura was. She was so worried for Naruto. She cared about all her friends. She cared about Sasuke, but she cared about Naruto just as much if not even more. And she's really young here. She was a terrible kunoichi and at this point she knew it. This was the only point where she had an advantage over anyone with her knowledge. But she was willing to throw that away and disqualify herself because she didn't want to see Naruto's dream crushed.
 
But later, she's gonna lie to Naruto about loving him when Sai told her Naruto loves her? That wouldn't make Naruto feel crushed when he finds out? She's gonna confess to Sasuke right in front of Naruto? That wouldn't make Naruto feel crushed? She's gonna leave Konoha with Sasuke, leaving Naruto to pursue his dream on his own? That wouldn't crush Naruto?
 
It's irrelevant if any of these things actually did hurt Naruto. Sakura would have considered the possibility that they would have and want to prevent it at all costs. So the ending made her OOC. There's no getting around this.

You know I just realizedd something, Naruto did in fact keep up with his bluffing to the examiners, he stayed an eternal Genin but also became Hokage.
Wether that's very sad or very funny I dont' know.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You know I just realizedd something, Naruto did in fact keep up with his bluffing to the examiners, he stayed an eternal Genin but also became Hokage.
Wether that's very sad or very funny I dont' know.

I see it more as the former than the latter...

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And then there's Hinatatas who "loved" Naruto so much that she OH-SO-OBVIOUSLY tried to help him cheat and was most likely spotted by the other Chunin proctors each time she tried. She was willing to get both Team Seven AND Eight failed because of her tunnel vision for Naruto.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

And then there's Hinatatas who "loved" Naruto so much that she OH-SO-OBVIOUSLY tried to help him cheat and was most likely spotted by the other Chunin proctors each time she tried. She was willing to get both Team Seven AND Eight failed because of her tunnel vision for Naruto.

 

Yeah, and she even said she didn't want to see Naruto disappear, and didn't think of his dream. That's why I find NaruSaku better after getting more into it; Sakura was willing to sacrifice her team's chances in the Chunin Exams as long as she could help keep Naruto's dream of being Hokage alive, and she supposedly "hated" Naruto at this point, and didn't care if Sasuke was going to likely be mad at her. She just wanted to help Naruto more than anything. Marshall? Lilly? You guys wanna take this?? :3

[DrK]

And then there's Hinatatas who "loved" Naruto so much that she OH-SO-OBVIOUSLY tried to help him cheat and was most likely spotted by the other Chunin proctors each time she tried. She was willing to get both Team Seven AND Eight failed because of her tunnel vision for Naruto.

I decided not to bring Hinata into it, because it wasn't really necessary. Hinata was just a red herring.
 
The important thing was to establish

She just wanted to help Naruto more than anything.

This. So what have we learned from these scenes so far?

- Sakura demonstrably cared more about Naruto than she did about Sasuke (Posts 1 and 5. Arguably 4 as well if we consider the whole narrative)

- Sakura displayed both a physical attraction and an emotional attachment to Naruto, neither of which she was depicted as willing to abandon for the sake of Hinata, Sasuke, or anyone else (2 and 3)

- Sakura felt invested in Naruto's dream and viewed herself as part of it (4. Hints in all of the others as well)

- Sakura viewed protecting Naruto from emotional and physical pain as more important than her own safety (1.)

Therefore, Sakura was OOC in the ending. Her actions contradict these established feelings and views. Any astute reader would come to the conclusion that Naruto was her most precious person, not Sasuke. This makes the pairing incredibly likely to happen, especially given the attraction displayed by both Sakura and Naruto. Sasuke is an issue, but more from Naruto's end than Sakura's. Sakura clearly made a choice a long time ago, whether she realized it or not.

From this, we can also determine that she was OOC in The Last. She pushed her most precious person towards an obsessed stalker. She was portrayed as being fine with this, when in reality her heart would have shattered into pieces. But every character was OOC in the Last, even Gaara. So this is less significant.

I'll talk about the fake confession later, but it shouldn't have changed anything. All that was established by it was that she still cares about Sasuke. That should not have been an issue when she demonstrated repeatedly that she cares more about Naruto. It didn't change the meaning of any past events on Sakura's end. It did change the meaning of things that Naruto did, but that's another story.

Edited by DrK, 06 December 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

What I find funny is the things you mentioned about Sakura supporting Naruto's dream and how this scene showcases it is refutted by many pro-enders I come across. Hell, I ran across a pro-ender on youtube who got so offended by me saying how Hinata never supported Naruto's dreams or goals all the while Sakura did that he resorted to bad grammar and cussing his way through conversations.

Even more so when you point of several situations where Sakura did, even showing proof of said scenes, and all they got under their belt is the stupid Pain confession. The Pain confession is the only ammunition these people got. They don't mention the ointment, they don't mention the Neji death scene, they don't even mention anything beyond "Because Hinata jumped into save Naruto against Pain."

I asked them to provide panel proof where Hinata openly supports Naruto's dream and goals....and all they do is curse me out like a bunch of salty fans.

Hell, I even mentioned what was said during the Naruto the Last movie AND from Kishimoto's own interviews citing and putting links....and they said I was a "kittening liar." So you can't reason with these people. You can't talk to these people or have any kind of conversation with them because they are so deluded with their own pairing bias that it seems like they don't read the manga at all.

To them: Sakura is abusive and used Naruto....even though Naruto the Last said that it was Naruto who used Sasuke and Sakura to his own means and Sakura maybe only has hit Naruto 5 times at most throughout 700 chapters and most of them were comical with the only one being more emotional was the Pain Arc hug and even then she didn't hit him THAT hard. (Also, disregarding what a Tsundere is)

And Hinata was the only person who supported Naruto's dreams and the only person who cared about him. Apparently everyone else didn't count.

[DrK]

What I find funny is the things you mentioned about Sakura supporting Naruto's dream and how this scene showcases it is refutted by many pro-enders I come across. Hell, I ran across a pro-ender on youtube who got so offended by me saying how Hinata never supported Naruto's dreams or goals all the while Sakura did that he resorted to bad grammar and cussing his way through conversations.

Yeah, I guess they can't read in depth at all. They saw Hinata jump in front of Pain and fell in love at that point. Sakura is a tainted property because she dared to like someone other than Naruto.

 

It's pathetic that a decision was made to cater to these people. I doubt they contributed any money towards the franchise if their understanding of it was so shallow. To be fair, I have read several NS fanfics that are equally OOC by these same standards. It is not the most obvious thing ever. You have to be open to the idea of Sakura not being a garbage fire. But Kishimoto made her canonically a garbage fire, so this is not going to be a common view.

Edited by DrK, 06 December 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

What I find funny is the things you mentioned about Sakura supporting Naruto's dream and how this scene showcases it is refutted by many pro-enders I come across. Hell, I ran across a pro-ender on youtube who got so offended by me saying how Hinata never supported Naruto's dreams or goals all the while Sakura did that he resorted to bad grammar and cussing his way through conversations.

Even more so when you point of several situations where Sakura did, even showing proof of said scenes, and all they got under their belt is the stupid Pain confession. The Pain confession is the only ammunition these people got. They don't mention the ointment, they don't mention the Neji death scene, they don't even mention anything beyond "Because Hinata jumped into save Naruto against Pain."

I asked them to provide panel proof where Hinata openly supports Naruto's dream and goals....and all they do is curse me out like a bunch of salty fans.

Hell, I even mentioned what was said during the Naruto the Last movie AND from Kishimoto's own interviews citing and putting links....and they said I was a "kittening liar." So you can't reason with these people. You can't talk to these people or have any kind of conversation with them because they are so deluded with their own pairing bias that it seems like they don't read the manga at all.

To them: Sakura is abusive and used Naruto....even though Naruto the Last said that it was Naruto who used Sasuke and Sakura to his own means and Sakura maybe only has hit Naruto 5 times at most throughout 700 chapters and most of them were comical with the only one being more emotional was the Pain Arc hug and even then she didn't hit him THAT hard. (Also, disregarding what a Tsundere is)

And Hinata was the only person who supported Naruto's dreams and the only person who cared about him. Apparently everyone else didn't count.

Yeah, they only care about Hinatata's action and nothing more. They don't care about the near fatal consequences of said action, further proving that they truly don't care about anything but Hinatata. Even if Naruto did end up dying by giving up to Kurama by freeing him from the seal with no Minato seal hax, they wouldn't care. All they'd care about is that the confession was made.

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah, they only care about Hinatata's action and nothing more. They don't care about the near fatal consequences of said action, further proving that they truly don't care about anything but Hinatata. Even if Naruto did end up dying by giving up to Kurama by freeing him from the seal with no Minato seal hax, they wouldn't care. All they'd care about is that the confession was made.

They even disregard that Hinata herself said "I am being selfish." They think she is selfless and only cares about Naruto's well being, but multiple times even she admits that she is absolutly selfish.

I mean, compare Sakura's moments for Naruto compared to Hinata's moments for Naruto/aka herself and her love for him....and they praise Hinata's actions while at the same time condeming Sakura's. No real reason why.

It is not okay for Sakura to be obsessed with Sasuke, but is totally okay for Hinata to be obsessed with Naruto
It is not okay for Sakura to try and help Naruto and fail and makes her useless, but if Hinata helps Naruto and fails "she is a true hero."
Sakura openly Naruto's dream and they call her selfish and useless, Hinata never supports Naruto's dreams and even calls herself selfish....they call her the most caring person in the series.
Sakura runs at Naruto risking her life as Naruto accidentaly hit her in rage..."look how stupid she is," Hinata runs at Pain getting her ass kicked easily and they say that "she truly helped Naruto."

I can't get over it. I can't fanthom just how biased they are.

It is even funnier that they think Hinata can beat Sakura even though the databooks say that Sakura is stronger, has actually won some fights and is never seen needing to be healed or in a hospital bed....meanwhile gets her ass handed to her, is shown to be weaker by databooks, and is constantly being shown in hospital beds being healed by Sakura...but apparently she is stronger?

It is just laughable.

[DrK]

It is not okay for Sakura to be obsessed with Sasuke, but is totally okay for Hinata to be obsessed with Naruto

They don't like Sakura because she never got over her obsession with Sasuke. But the only reason she never did is because Hinata existed. Sakura went from a five course meal to a cheese pizza because Hinata had to get what she wanted, when Hinata was no better than a plate of hot wings with or without Sakura.

[Gravenimage]

They even disregard that Hinata herself said "I am being selfish." They think she is selfless and only cares about Naruto's well being, but multiple times even she admits that she is absolutly selfish.

I mean, compare Sakura's moments for Naruto compared to Hinata's moments for Naruto/aka herself and her love for him....and they praise Hinata's actions while at the same time condeming Sakura's. No real reason why.

It is not okay for Sakura to be obsessed with Sasuke, but is totally okay for Hinata to be obsessed with Naruto
It is not okay for Sakura to try and help Naruto and fail and makes her useless, but if Hinata helps Naruto and fails "she is a true hero."
Sakura openly Naruto's dream and they call her selfish and useless, Hinata never supports Naruto's dreams and even calls herself selfish....they call her the most caring person in the series.
Sakura runs at Naruto risking her life as Naruto accidentaly hit her in rage..."look how stupid she is," Hinata runs at Pain getting her ass kicked easily and they say that "she truly helped Naruto."

I can't get over it. I can't fanthom just how biased they are.

It is even funnier that they think Hinata can beat Sakura even though the databooks say that Sakura is stronger, has actually won some fights and is never seen needing to be healed or in a hospital bed....meanwhile gets her ass handed to her, is shown to be weaker by databooks, and is constantly being shown in hospital beds being healed by Sakura...but apparently she is stronger?

It is just laughable.

 

They even disregard that Hinata herself said "I am being selfish." They think she is selfless and only cares about Naruto's well being, but multiple times even she admits that she is absolutly selfish.

I mean, compare Sakura's moments for Naruto compared to Hinata's moments for Naruto/aka herself and her love for him....and they praise Hinata's actions while at the same time condeming Sakura's. No real reason why.

It is not okay for Sakura to be obsessed with Sasuke, but is totally okay for Hinata to be obsessed with Naruto
It is not okay for Sakura to try and help Naruto and fail and makes her useless, but if Hinata helps Naruto and fails "she is a true hero."
Sakura openly Naruto's dream and they call her selfish and useless, Hinata never supports Naruto's dreams and even calls herself selfish....they call her the most caring person in the series.
Sakura runs at Naruto risking her life as Naruto accidentaly hit her in rage..."look how stupid she is," Hinata runs at Pain getting her ass kicked easily and they say that "she truly helped Naruto."

I can't get over it. I can't fanthom just how biased they are.

It is even funnier that they think Hinata can beat Sakura even though the databooks say that Sakura is stronger, has actually won some fights and is never seen needing to be healed or in a hospital bed....meanwhile gets her ass handed to her, is shown to be weaker by databooks, and is constantly being shown in hospital beds being healed by Sakura...but apparently she is stronger?

It is just laughable.

 

You know what they say James F*** logic.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Oh we can clearly see writing well isn't easy in Kishimotos case.