40 replies to this topic

[Nar123]

How would it repeat history though? From what was actually shown Madara was never killed outright. Hell had the 1st Hokage actually killed the SOB none of the problems of the manga would have been created. lol

 

Sasuke was a villain, should have stayed a villain, and this story should have been about actually growing up, and putting the needs of the world above your own selfish desires. In this case it should have been Naruto having to put Sasuke down because of how evil he had truly become, overcoming his desire to "bring Sasuke back no matter what" and therefor defending the rest of humanity. Much like his Father before him, who choose to sacrifice his life, his wife's life, and the happiness that  his entire family would have together for the good of the village.

 

The big problem with this story, is it started with Naruto defending the natural rights of every person who could dream big dreams, and achieve them threw hard work. Remember the fight with Neji? Instead in the end, and especially with this stupid f@ckin movie, that entire idea was flipped on its head. It instead became about how Naruto and Sasuke were the chosen ones (a title Hinata would later also get cause f@ck it she deserve it I guess) who had to live up to an ancient prophcey. In other words they were destined to do what they did, they were put on this planet for that sole purpose. They had no choice in the matter, they simply had to fulfill what the older generation expected of them.

 

In the end the fatalism that Neji argued in favor of in part one, was proven to be real. Part one Nartuo was proven to be a fool, and in an ironic twist, his first convert (Neji) died for abandoning his original ideals. There is no natural rights in the Narutoverse. You don't get to decide what you want to be, you are born with a destiny and must fullfil it, and in the end no matter what you've done you'll be rewarded.

 

Sasuke got the girl, and no punishment. Naruto got a title that no longer matters, is a military leader in a world that has no use for militaristic talents or ideals, a silver medal trophy wife who won him by following her destiny, and is so disconnected from the person he was in the beginning that he can't even empathy with his own son who wants nothing more then to have his father's love..... Young Naruto grew up with a father he didn't really know, who ultimately for him was just a statue carved from a mountain that looks down on everyone.... Burrito (or as I like calling him Soft Taco Boy) basically has the same life. His father lives above everyone in a tower, talks about grand ideals, but doesn't even know how to treat his child as a human being.

 

The sad thing is Kishimoto doesn't seem to even understand what he has done. And if he does he doesn't care, because for him Sasuke was the true "pure" one in this story. What a load of kitten.

 

Its basically the idea of going against destiny that I'm talking about, Sasuke not redeeming himself is bad for the history and Naruto's character, even if Sasuke died by the end in a Darth Vader like death, it would be important that he redeemed himself before  because if he didnt then this would just be Jiraya vs Orochimaru part 2 or Madara vs Hashirama part 2, both ended with the "good guy" failing in getting his friend back and in Hashirama 's case, even "killing" him

 

If Naruto managed to save Sasuke even if the Sauce died at the end then at least he would accomplish his objective

 

I understand you hate Sasuke and wanted him to die as the villain he became, but if we analyse things from sasukes perspective, its almost understandable that he would want to destroy and change the ninja system because of the multiple horrible things that happened thanks to it. I hoped that in the end if Sasuke died that Naruto would carry on sasuke's legacy and make a reform in the system and if Sasuke lived and became redeemed, after being punished , it would be good if he and naruto worked towards a peaceful change instead of the violent change sasuke proposed before

 

So while I agree on your points on how ridiculous the story turned out to be, i just dont agree with the fact that Sasuke should die just so Naruto could learn that how "things" work. maybe in a seinen your point of view could work, but not in a shonen, where the protagonist generally achieves everything he sets out to do

Edited by Nar123, 30 January 2015 - 10:26 PM.

[Tiller]

 

Its basically the idea of going against destiny that I'm talking about, Sasuke not redeeming himself is bad for the history and Naruto's character, even if

I understand you hate Sasuke and wanted him to die as the villain he became, but if we analyse things from sasukes perspective, its almost understable that he would want to destroy and change the ninja system because of the multiple horrible things that happened thanks to it. I hoped that in the end if Sasuke died that Naruto would carry on sasuke's legacy and make a reform in the system and if Sasuke lived and became redeemed, after being punished , it would be good if he and naruto worked towards a peaceful change instead of the violent change sasuke proposed before

 

I don't have a problem with Sasuke's past at all. It is understandable why he became a villain, but having an understandable villain doesn't change the fact that he is a villain and should have remained one. That doesn't change the fact though that he is a grade A villain who should have suffered the ultimate price for his crimes against humanity. The man is shown to be a murder, a torturer, and an egoist who's main desire was to create a fascist utopia where he ruled with an iron fist, and crushed the difference out of mankind. This is not a person who should be defeated just because Naruto punched him really hard, and he sure as hell shouldn't have been rewarded for the life he lived. His whole supposed personally change comes from not being able to kill Nartuo... so he express how much he loves him and tells Sakura that he is "yeah... sorry..." and all is forgiven.

 

Furthermore what exactly has "changed" in the ninja world? How has it improved? Naruto is still a military dictator, except now he is like a Tokugawa Shogun. He sits in his tower with all of his military strength, still in complete control over a world that no longer has any need for military power. The world isn't a democracy. The idea of natural rights isn't exercised. From what we've seen even the idea of individual self worth isn't even recognized in any meaningful way. Peace exist because Naruto sits on his thrown above all the people who bow to him, for his power and ability to force his wants on the world population.

 

The "peace" the exist, exist because the Ninja World was forced the unite against a common enemy, namely the Uchiha, and then later Rabbit Moon Goddess because Kishimoto didn't have the guts to keep the Uchiha Clan as true villains. He even claimed they just "love too much" , Anyways nothing really changed of any significance. Three generations removed from Naruto's it's highly plausible that the Ninja world could be at each others throats again. There is nothing holding it back now except for the personality of Naruto, and Naruto and Sasuke's power levels. That's it.

 

There was no reformation. No great fundamental changes were made. The world is good now largely because the strength of the world can't stand up to the power of the "chosen ones". Naruto, Sasuke, and because of the Last Hinata, keep peace up with the general understanding that if anyone stepped out of line they would be crushed with excessive force of the "chosen" people.

 

The only think that has changed, is that now power is in the hands of different people. Naruto hasn't changed anything, but the general emotions of his generation.

 

I've said it multiple times but every time I think about this ending I'm reminded of the Poem Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley.

 

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[Nar123]

 

I don't have a problem with Sasuke's past at all. It is understandable why he became a villain, but having an understandable villain doesn't change the fact that he is a villain and should have remained one. That doesn't change the fact though that he is a grade A villain who should have suffered the ultimate price for his crimes against humanity. The man is shown to be a murder, a torturer, and an egoist who's main desire was to create a fascist utopia where he ruled with an iron fist, and crushed the difference out of mankind. This is not a person who should be defeated just because Naruto punched him really hard, and he sure as hell shouldn't have been rewarded for the life he lived. His whole supposed personally change comes from not being able to kill Nartuo... so he express how much he loves him and tells Sakura that he is "yeah... sorry..." and all is forgiven.

 

 

 

The thing is, as I said, if Sasuke died as a villain nothing would have changed (He didn't die and nothing changed too, but thats because kishi kittened up)  Sasuke radical methods should've be changed thanks to Naruto. This is a fight where his TnJ should have been used.

 

I understand your points but I still think that if Sasuke didn't redeemed himself at the end ( if he died or survived, doesnt matter) then Naruto story would be regarded as a failure. He would fail where his teacher did and where Hashirama did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Furthermore what exactly has "changed" in the ninja world? How has it improved? Naruto is still a military dictator, except now he is like a Tokugawa Shogun. He sits in his tower with all of his military strength, still in complete control over a world that no longer has any need for military power. The world isn't a democracy. The idea of natural rights isn't exercised. From what we've seen even the idea of individual self worth isn't even recognized in any meaningful way. Peace exist because Naruto sits on his thrown above all the people who bow to him, for his power and ability to force his wants on the world population.

 

The "peace" the exist, exist because the Ninja World was forced the unite against a common enemy, namely the Uchiha, and then later Rabbit Moon Goddess because Kishimoto didn't have the guts to keep the Uchiha Clan as true villains. He even claimed they just "love too much"    , Anyways nothing really changed of any significance. Three generations removed from Naruto's it's highly plausible that the Ninja world could be at each others throats again. There is nothing holding it back now except for the personality of Naruto, and Naruto and Sasuke's power levels. That's it.

 

There was no reformation. No great fundamental changes were made. The world is good now largely because the strength of the world can't stand up to the power of the "chosen ones". Naruto, Sasuke, and because of the Last Hinata, keep peace up with the general understanding that if anyone stepped out of line they would be crushed with excessive force of the "chosen" people.

 

The only think that has changed, is that now power is in the hands of different people. Naruto hasn't changed anything, but the general emotions of his generation.

 

I've said it multiple times but every time I think about this ending I'm reminded of the Poem Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley.

 

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

 

Agree with everything over here, nothing changed. Naruto didn't brought peace, Obito did and the Uchiha "love too much" kitten was horrible

[Tiller]

I understand your points but I still think that if Sasuke didn't redeemed himself at the end ( if he died or survived, doesnt matter) then Naruto story would be regarded as a failure. He would fail where his teacher did and where Hashirama did

 

We disagree on themes obviously. To me Jiraya and Hashirama failed because they allowed there emotions to give in, and therefor they did not defeat a great evil, and in the end the greater good suffered horribly because of that. Had Jiraya killed Orochimaru when he was younger, or had Hashirama truly killed Madara then the ninja world would have been better served.

 

Likewise Sasuke should have died for what he did to the people of the world. The pain he caused can never be forgiven, and especially not by walking around like a damn monk, after winning the girl, and starting a family he doesn't deserve. Sasuke needs to die for this story to be written correctly.  He needs to be punished and except the fact that he became the very thing he once claimed to hate.

 

I know your trying, but your argument isn't going to work on me. I think it's a huge problem with this story, right up there with turning Itachi into a good guy in the end. He's another Uchiha should have remained evil, but instead Kishimoto allowed popularity to control his story.

[Princess Iris]

I was SS in the beginning
the changes necessary for SS according to me is
*Attempt to murder thingie shouldn't have happened
*Sakura's importance should have been more & obvious too (I hate those ambiguous SS moments)
*Naruto shouldn't have loved her ...
btw he never loved her, right?
*Sasuke's feelings for her should have been shown in 693 .....rather than him rejecting her ...like kitten

[FireFox]

For starters I would never ever make SS in the first place lol and you have to erase Naruto's character completely  strip him from his MC status  making him look like the King's Fool .

 

But for SS to work you have to rewrite Sasuke's character from its very core  change his theme etc make focus on romance (which is a destruction for his character btw ), you have to make him compassionate , caring , selfless around her  which is more of a Naruto trait   basically make him do the things that Naruto does for Sakura  in order to mash up with Sakura's personality needs and insecurities  .  For Sakura make her understand him his needs be more involved in his problems  like she did/was with Naruto . 

 

As I've seen SS in their fics however bad they are always give Sasuke Naruto's traits his display of actions for Sakura   which is why I laugh at every one of their fic  its comedy bc its Ironic and Hypocritical  bc it only tells me like most of SS that they ship it based on how they look not who they really are ugh! . Same with NH  fics when they insert a Tsundere Sakura's personality trait   I only see Irony and Hypocrisy   they don't even realize  how much of NS dynamic they are implementing in their fics and yet they spew all sorts of kitten about NS  its really laughable  God I Hate the Naruto Fandom     .

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 06 February 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[tricksie]

I don't mind the love triangle. It's a built-in opportunity for character development. They are almost always predictable, and in that are always satisfying. The only time a love triangle is not satisfying is when the outcome does not follow the character development, like what happened with the end of Naruto.

 

So in that sense, I don't mind SS if Sakura was able to reach Sasuke's heart and change him, and in return he was able to be compassionate and protective toward her. The development of Naruto would then follow suit, with him gradually overcoming his harmless infatuation with Sakura and finally being able to open his heart to someone else.

 

But again, none of these things happened in the series. The development was NS until the very very end. Then the curtain dropped and it was SS/NH. Worst outcome ever. Nothing developed was resolved, the outcome is not supported, and everyone is deeply unsatisfied, from all ships.

[Narufan85]

I don't mind the love triangle. It's a built-in opportunity for character development. They are almost always predictable, and in that are always satisfying. The only time a love triangle is not satisfying is when the outcome does not follow the character development, like what happened with the end of Naruto.
 
So in that sense, I don't mind SS if Sakura was able to reach Sasuke's heart and change him, and in return he was able to be compassionate and protective toward her. The development of Naruto would then follow suit, with him gradually overcoming his harmless infatuation with Sakura and finally being able to open his heart to someone else.
 
But again, none of these things happened in the series. The development was NS until the very very end. Then the curtain dropped and it was SS/NH. Worst outcome ever. Nothing developed was resolved, the outcome is not supported, and everyone is deeply unsatisfied, from all ships.

I feel like the ending of a work like Naruto should leave the reader feeling like th main characters are all better by the end. Better ninja, better people. Better teammates. I don't feel that way with NH/SS. That's a huge failing with the ending. NS made each other better. SS makes Sakura an insecure fangirl.

[Pix]

I think when it comes to Naruto's behalf, Naruto having a crush on Sakura could stay but overall he would get over her. Just not how he did in canon. Instead, he would see that Sasuke, not Sakura, also had strong feelings for Sakura and that's how he would learn to let her go. So far from what we've seen in the manga is that Sasuke never outright declared his feelings for Sakura, and quite frankly, left her to die countless of times (he only saved her like once, back in the Zabuza arc).   

 

Naruto may not know the difference between loving ramen and loving a person but I'm pretty sure he knows that that's not love. Honestly, I don't see how Naruto let this couple happen to begin with.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

I don't mind the love triangle. It's a built-in opportunity for character development. They are almost always predictable, and in that are always satisfying. The only time a love triangle is not satisfying is when the outcome does not follow the character development, like what happened with the end of Naruto.
 
So in that sense, I don't mind SS if Sakura was able to reach Sasuke's heart and change him, and in return he was able to be compassionate and protective toward her. The development of Naruto would then follow suit, with him gradually overcoming his harmless infatuation with Sakura and finally being able to open his heart to someone else.
 
But again, none of these things happened in the series. The development was NS until the very very end. Then the curtain dropped and it was SS/NH. Worst outcome ever. Nothing developed was resolved, the outcome is not supported, and everyone is deeply unsatisfied, from all ships.

Wait... what the... Why in the world Naruto would "overcome" his feelings? I better watch Naruto becoming kitten one time, because he did all he was capable of. Sasuke even properly developed - had nothing to do with Sakura, it's unfair to Naruto.

[Narufan85]

I imagine, if this scenario were to work, a moment where Naruto and Sakura actually have a real, genuine conversation about their feelings. Not the bogus attempt at retcon in The Last, but a real conversation. Naruto would acknowledge the reciprocal feelings between Sakura and Sasuke. His desire to see Sakura happy would lead to him moving on and finding love elsewhere.

[tricksie]

Wait... what the... Why in the world Naruto would "overcome" his feelings? I better watch Naruto becoming asshole one time, because he did all he was capable of. Sasuke even properly developed - had nothing to do with Sakura, it's unfair to Naruto.

 

I would have much more tolerance for SS if it were properly developed. That's all I'm getting at.

 

So why in the world would Naruto overcome his feelings? I don't know. We're not given a reason. But that's exactly what happened. 

[NarutoUzumaki01]

So why in the world would Naruto overcome his feelings? I don't know. We're not given a reason. But that's exactly what happened. 

Eh, you perfectly aware that this is not the case, retcon =/= happend. It's just characters brutaly rewrited.

[RedFaction]

 

I would have much more tolerance for SS if it were properly developed. That's all I'm getting at.

 

So why in the world would Naruto overcome his feelings? I don't know. We're not given a reason. But that's exactly what happened. 

What SS needed was more positive development if it was going to become canon. It had too much negative development for me to able to tolerate.

 

What SP was trying to say is that Naruto didn't even overcome his feelings, he actually never had feelings to begin with. Though it's not like that is any better.

[tricksie]

What SP was trying to say is that Naruto didn't even overcome his feelings, he actually never had feelings to begin with. Though it's not like that is any better.

 

Yeah, you're right. *shakes head* It's so screwed up.

[Lid]

I think two things would be needed for SasuSaku to really, legitimately work. 

 

1. Sasuke would need to stay in Konoha.

 

Maybe he could run off, but Naruto would have to get him back quickly. He would need to stick around so that Naruto and Sakura could "defrost" him a bit more. 

 

2. Hinata would have to become either a temporary or permanent member of Team 7. 

 

I think having interaction between all four characters and them establishing friendships would at least make it much more believable that Sakura could fall for Sasuke (who would be a much better person since he stuck around Konoha) and Naruto falling for Hinata (who would be a much more integral part of the story and Naruto's like.

 

If the story had turned out like that or something close to it, I may still be a NaruSaku fan, but I would at least be accepting toward the other two ships.

[ThroughWithLove]

SasuSaku works if Naruto is not in the manga or Naruto never has any feelings for Sakura. Everything else is a matter of developing Sakura as a character and giving her a reason to love Sasuke. Same goes for Sasuke.

[Nate River]

 

— Naruto has to be stuck in his goofy immature powerhouse role. He doesn't develop like Sakura does into a responsible, far-seeing person. Instead, Naruto is the one who still clowns around most of the time and then shows up to blow everyone else away. When the action is over, he goes back to his loveable goofy self who wants everyone to be friends. It becomes clear that Naruto really doesn't understand the burden Sasuke carries the way Sakura does. (Again, important for switching the roles around so that Sakura is more important.)

 

He did that? As far as I an concerned the only far sighted thing he did was wanting to end hate and even that was driven predominated by the more short-sighted goal of doing it for one person. I though he was still irresponsible and incredibly short-sighted when it really mattered. *cough*Obito*cough.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

He did that? As far as I an concerned the only far sighted thing he did was wanting to end hate and even that was driven predominated by the more short-sighted goal of doing it for one person. I though he was still irresponsible and incredibly short-sighted when it really mattered. *cough*Obito*cough.

Re-read Pein's Arc.

[Nate River]

Re-read Pein's Arc.

 

No.

 

(1) I am being somewhat factious.

 

(2) If you wish to counter my point, do so. Do not simply demand I reread and entire arc with the assumption I will come to the conclusion you do. I have no intention of going through the effort on your behalf nor will I read or interpret the thing in a vacuum.