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#26901 jak123

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 07:25 PM

Sasuke to be honest is probably an amalgamation of a lot of people Kishimoto has felt he needed to compete against. Oda in Sales, some college friend, and his brother.

 

The brother especially in the romance department both Naruto and 666 Satan have a dumb (?) boy that special attack is orb shaped that has a crush one a girl that is interested in his colder (?) friend.

 

As for Oda kishimoto spent 15 years being measure to oda, and being told to compete with him from the top spot of WSJ. The rivalry was on both sides as I recall Oda lamented Naruto ending because there was no other manga that could really compete against One Piece.

If that was the case, then why was Sasuke the blandest motherf***er I've ever seen in a Shounen?


Edited by jak123, 13 July 2018 - 07:25 PM.


#26902 DrK

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:09 PM

If that was the case, then why was Sasuke the blandest motherf***er I've ever seen in a Shounen?

He had some depth and range in Part 1. I think the biggest problem is that his character arc really wasn't resolved. He just gives up and decides to serve the shinobi system. If he died or remained a villain or had his eyes ripped out you would not be saying this now. It was only because his character was handled ultimately in such an unsatisfying way that he seems boring. He could have been good. Just like Sakura.



#26903 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:21 PM

He had some depth and range in Part 1. I think the biggest problem is that his character arc really wasn't resolved. He just gives up and decides to serve the shinobi system. If he died or remained a villain or had his eyes ripped out you would not be saying this now. It was only because his character was handled ultimately in such an unsatisfying way that he seems boring. He could have been good. Just like Sakura.

It basically went from "Sasuke Uchiha" specifically to being all about the "Uchiha Clan" in general and Sasuke just got lost while all mixed in together with it, So basically everything mentioned about the Uchiha Clan in general could then most likely just be slapped on Sasuke because, obviously, he's born from the Uchiha Clan and so you don't have to continue to think up things pertaining specifically to him.

The whole point of his character early on was teeter-tottering between continuing his pursuit of fast vengeance or partially letting it go and seeing what he had right in front of him, be patient, get stronger for new purpose, and if he does come across Itachi, fight him and maybe kill him. Of course, he ultimately chose his quick and easy path of revenge, but once that goal was no longer in the picture (by Itachi's own hand really, not Sasuke's) and all that time was spent solely focused on that vengeance trip, then there was literally nothing else for Sasuke to do - no point to his character anymore really - and so they simply just kept throwing in revenge plot after revenge plot with Sasuke because they never bothered thinking of anything else for him, much less how to re-integrate him into what was SUPPOSED to be the main plot around Naruto himself.


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#26904 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:02 PM

If that was the case, then why was Sasuke the blandest motherf***er I've ever seen in a Shounen?

I said he was an amalgamation of people kishimoto felt he needed to compete against. I did not say that made him interesting.



#26905 Phantom_999

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Posted Yesterday, 02:10 AM

It basically went from "Sasuke Uchiha" specifically to being all about the "Uchiha Clan" in general and Sasuke just got lost while all mixed in together with it, So basically everything mentioned about the Uchiha Clan in general could then most likely just be slapped on Sasuke because, obviously, he's born from the Uchiha Clan and so you don't have to continue to think up things pertaining specifically to him.

The whole point of his character early on was teeter-tottering between continuing his pursuit of fast vengeance or partially letting it go and seeing what he had right in front of him, be patient, get stronger for new purpose, and if he does come across Itachi, fight him and maybe kill him. Of course, he ultimately chose his quick and easy path of revenge, but once that goal was no longer in the picture (by Itachi's own hand really, not Sasuke's) and all that time was spent solely focused on that vengeance trip, then there was literally nothing else for Sasuke to do - no point to his character anymore really - and so they simply just kept throwing in revenge plot after revenge plot with Sasuke because they never bothered thinking of anything else for him, much less how to re-integrate him into what was SUPPOSED to be the main plot around Naruto himself.

 

And that is in due part of a vicious and illogical paradox of Kishi wanting Naruto and Sasuke as rivals so fueled by their desire to one up the other that it escalates into a bitter conflict, yet INSISTS on having a "flowery, gum-drops and rainbows fantasy" that the two are BEST FRIENDS that could never admit this secret exclusive bond to anyone, not even to each other and that was forced to be the core aspect of the series. The most IDIOTIC part is that you can't have it both ways because it is both self contradictory and illogical, but Kishi INSISTED it was like that and was talking out of his @$$ a lot of the time regarding his intentions of what the series is about


Edited by Phantom_999, Yesterday, 11:56 AM.

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#26906 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted Yesterday, 07:16 AM

 

And that is in due part of a vicious and illogical paradox of Kishi wanting Naruto and Sasuke as rivals so fueled by their desire to one up the other that it escalates into a bitter conflict, yet INSISTS on having a "flowery, gum-drops and rainbows fantasy" that the two are BEST FRIENDS that could never admit this secret exlusive bond to anyone, not even to each other and that was forced to be the core aspect of the series. the most IDIOTIC part is that you can't have it both ways because it is both self contradictory and illogical, but Kishi INSISTED it was like that and was talking out of his @$$ a lot of the time regarding his intentions of what the series is about

Yep, you can't build up one without diminishing the other.

If you want to build the two up to be such close friends, like "brothers", then there's no way that they could maintain such a huge rivalry because, as you said, such a huge, even obsessive rivalry will only lead to conflict.

If you want to build the two up to be such a huge, even obsessive rivals to the point of conflict, then there's no way that they could also have such a close "bond or brotherhood" because having such a bond would mean that they actually DON'T want to be in conflict.

A bunch of other such rivalries have, as usual with a bunch of things "Naruto" tries to do, done it SO much better. Like, look at Yugi/Atem and Kaiba in Yu-Gi-Oh!. Throughout the WHOLE Duel Monsters series, you have Yugi/Atem trying to convince Kaiba to be their friend and work together and such (though, at times, it sounds more like them trying to force their beliefs onto Kaiba...much like Naruto with antagonists), but Kaiba always stuck to his guns in being adamant about just wanting to defeat Yugi/Atem in a Duel. The furthest they ever go is simply having Kaiba more openly respect Yugi/Atem as fellow Duelists, but never do they actually become "friends".


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#26907 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted Yesterday, 04:11 PM

Yep, you can't build up one without diminishing the other.

If you want to build the two up to be such close friends, like "brothers", then there's no way that they could maintain such a huge rivalry because, as you said, such a huge, even obsessive rivalry will only lead to conflict.

If you want to build the two up to be such a huge, even obsessive rivals to the point of conflict, then there's no way that they could also have such a close "bond or brotherhood" because having such a bond would mean that they actually DON'T want to be in conflict.

A bunch of other such rivalries have, as usual with a bunch of things "Naruto" tries to do, done it SO much better. Like, look at Yugi/Atem and Kaiba in Yu-Gi-Oh!. Throughout the WHOLE Duel Monsters series, you have Yugi/Atem trying to convince Kaiba to be their friend and work together and such (though, at times, it sounds more like them trying to force their beliefs onto Kaiba...much like Naruto with antagonists), but Kaiba always stuck to his guns in being adamant about just wanting to defeat Yugi/Atem in a Duel. The furthest they ever go is simply having Kaiba more openly respect Yugi/Atem as fellow Duelists, but never do they actually become "friends".

 

Agreed. If anything, I kinda wish that Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry and bonds had been more akin to Goku and Vegeta, which is really one of the best examples you can think of with that.

 

Given their connection begins very antagonistic due to Vegeta's actions during the Saiyan Saga, as well as his direct AND indirect hand in killing many of Goku's friends. Plus we get the fact Vegeta assuming he's immediately stronger than Goku due to his being the prince of Saiyans while Goku was just a common foot soldier, only to be surprised, and also irritated, wanting to find means to why he was able to deal blows and such like he was by Goku while on Earth.

 

And we see that continue in the Saiyan Saga with Vegeta doing all he could to try to become stronger, only to once again be passed by Goku and his growth when he handles Recoome, someone who nearly killed Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, like it was nothing, leading to Vegeta's envy growing because of Goku's growing closer to the status of Super Saiyan.

 

It then escalates more and more near the climax of the Namek/Frieza Sagas when Vegeta is killed by Frieza and begs Goku to avenge their people, as well as his wanting to remain on Earth to allow himself to figure out how Goku became a Super Saiyan, and even when he does, it still isn't completely enough in his mind, in spite of getting what he wanted to be able to catch up, and in his head, to surpass Goku's power.

 

Then we see it die down slowly when Goku sacrifices himself to stop Cell from destroying Earth, leading to a calmer Vegeta in the beginning of the Buu Saga, one that has been training his and Bulma's son Trunks as well as continuing his own path of training, until he witnesses how much stronger Goku has gotten from training in Other World the seven years he'd been dead, and being able to defeat Yakon like he did, which led him to make his Faustian bargain with Babidi to gain the Majin power, leading to his and Goku's penultimate battle with his admitting why he did it even as proud as he was to never ask for help.

 

With this also culminating when Vegeta sacrifices himself to try to kill Buu, even giving Trunks a hug beforehand, then his return and his anger at Goku for hiding the fact he could go Super Saiyan 3 the whole time during their fight, leading to the final battle with Kid Buu, where Vegeta comes to grips with the fact Goku is simply better than him.

 

Then with Battle of Gods and leading into Super, we see even as Vegeta has acknowledge Goku being better than him, he's still motivated to surpass him, even as Goku manages to get used to his Super Saiyan God form, with Vegeta following behind and his gaining it as well as both becoming Super Saiyan Blue, but we also see how Vegeta's ego still is a fatal problem in Resurrection "F" when he doesn't take his chance to finish Frieza off because he wanted to make him suffer for all Frieza did to him, allowing Frieza to destroy Earth in a pyrrhic victory.

 

But overall, that's what makes Goku and Vegeta's rivalry and connection strong is that even with how it is, they can still see each other as friends while retaining that healthy rivalry that allows them to both become stronger in their own ways. I feel if that was done for Naruto and Sasuke, it could have been so much better than what we did get, considering we did get some moments of them actually acting like friends, but it was rare and inbetween, leading it to be unbalanced and how we got it to be more of an obsessive rivalry kind of thing.



#26908 KClaws_2

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Posted Yesterday, 07:04 PM

The main problem with the Naruto and Sasuke rivalry is how rushed everything is with regards to both. 

 

While Naruto and Sasuke had some respect towards one another, there isn't much to back them up as friends. Naruto basically went out of his way to make Sasuke his rival from the start when they were younger, they never really hung out or knew each other. The pacing of Part 1 also didn't allow much time for growth. Everyone was just slapped on a team and then went their separate ways more or less.

 

On the other hand, they didn't really have good reasons to be rivals either for that matter. While Sasuke was better than Naruto throughout their childhood, Sasuke never actively got in Naruto's face about it and Naruto never really did anything other than annoy Sasuke at times. By Part 2, their actual need to compete with one another is pretty much gone, and it isn't really a clash of ideals either.

 

Say what you will about Sasuke's arc, Kishimoto at least TRIED to show Sasuke develop an opinion on the ninja world, whereas Naruto just blindly went with it.



#26909 DrK

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Posted Yesterday, 07:18 PM

But overall, that's what makes Goku and Vegeta's rivalry and connection strong is that even with how it is, they can still see each other as friends while retaining that healthy rivalry that allows them to both become stronger in their own ways. I feel if that was done for Naruto and Sasuke, it could have been so much better than what we did get, considering we did get some moments of them actually acting like friends, but it was rare and inbetween, leading it to be unbalanced and how we got it to be more of an obsessive rivalry kind of thing.

Vegeta was always fixated on Goku because he won their fight (sort of). Sasuke never even thought about Naruto most of the time and Naruto happened to lose the fight that they had. So Naruto comes off as obsessing over a guy who isn't really concerned about him. With Vegeta it's the opposite, Vegeta was always fixated on Goku and Goku didn't really care. I mean he cared about Vegeta, but he didn't really think about him that much as opposed to Naruto.


Edited by DrK, Yesterday, 07:19 PM.


#26910 Bail o' Lies

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Posted Yesterday, 10:56 PM

Vegeta was always fixated on Goku because he won their fight (sort of). Sasuke never even thought about Naruto most of the time and Naruto happened to lose the fight that they had. So Naruto comes off as obsessing over a guy who isn't really concerned about him. With Vegeta it's the opposite, Vegeta was always fixated on Goku and Goku didn't really care. I mean he cared about Vegeta, but he didn't really think about him that much as opposed to Naruto.

He didn't really care about Goku after his first fight till after the beat freeza, and became the legendary super sayjin; both which he felt was his birthright and destiny. He first stuck around to figure out how to achieve super sayjin, then to prove he was better then goku, then because he had no where else to go, eventually after living years on Earth he became content for the first time in his life, which to him meant he was becoming soft, so to prove he still got it he became obsessed about beating Goku, this bit him in the ass during the Buu arc, and finally he settled down into a friendly rivalry with Goku afterwards.

 

Here a question for everyone; what is the bases for Naruto and Sasuke rivalry, and friendship?



#26911 Nostradamus

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Posted Yesterday, 11:46 PM

Here a question for everyone; what is the bases for Naruto and Sasuke rivalry, and friendship?

Baseless.


                               Posted Image
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.

#26912 Phantom_999

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Posted Today, 12:14 AM

Yeah, WHAT IS THE BASIS of their relationship? Naruto grew up envying Sasuke's so called talent and popularity, and Sasuke thought Naruto was an annoying pest. they saw the hidden pain in each other but never bothered to even start a conversation about it because again Sasuke shows to give no %&*@s and Naruto was too dead set on beating the stoic bad boy and make himself look better to even try bond with each other. This festers until they graduate the academy then get assigned to team 7, then it becomes a full on rival dynamic and again you don't see anything remotely resembling this hidden brotherhood and best friend bond between them.
 
Then the "you're my best friend!!" card gets played during the Sasuke retrieval arc, and you would actually look back on it and think to yourself, "well that came out of left field". And after that Naruto turns into  an entity with more "Sasuke in his brain" than all of Sasuke's fan girls put together, and becomes this borderline yandere that repeats to himself over and over, "I must bring my sexy boyfriend back, he was brainwashed. I must bring my sexy boyfriend back, he was brainwashed." when it was clear and slapped in his face multiple times Sasuke MADE HIS CHOICE.

 
They are not friends, not only because of  how unbelievable and "told not shown" it is, but Naruto has this delusional idea in his head that Sasuke did not know what he was getting himself into and that he was dragged kicking and screaming at Orochimaru's door and therefore he has to rescue Sasuke. That does not speak to me as a friendship that is a "control freak tendency". Naruto THINKING he knows Sasuke best and what Sasuke's best interests are and when Sasuke tells Naruto to leave him alone Naruto won't have any of it, because Naruto knows Sasuke BEST!!! AND KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR HIM!!!!!!! What a healthy friendship that is :lmao:  :roll:
 
And When Naruto said He'll die together with Sasuke at the end of the Kage Summit arc? That was just loaded with, "IF I CAN'T HAVE YOU, NO ONE CAN!!!!!!!!!" implications now doesn't it?  :zaru:
 

The main problem with the Naruto and Sasuke rivalry is how rushed everything is with regards to both. 
 
While Naruto and Sasuke had some respect towards one another, there isn't much to back them up as friends. Naruto basically went out of his way to make Sasuke his rival from the start when they were younger, they never really hung out or knew each other. The pacing of Part 1 also didn't allow much time for growth. Everyone was just slapped on a team and then went their separate ways more or less.
 
On the other hand, they didn't really have good reasons to be rivals either for that matter. While Sasuke was better than Naruto throughout their childhood, Sasuke never actively got in Naruto's face about it and Naruto never really did anything other than annoy Sasuke at times. By Part 2, their actual need to compete with one another is pretty much gone, and it isn't really a clash of ideals either.
 
Say what you will about Sasuke's arc, Kishimoto at least TRIED to show Sasuke develop an opinion on the ninja world, whereas Naruto just blindly went with it.


Uuuh, NOPE, Naruto had an opinion of the ninja world. He HATED it and wanted to change it by stopping global conflict, and in fact he was prophesied to do so. No, who you are talking about, that just blindly continued the ninja system is Nardo Scumzamaki that was made to replace Naruto, and who's sole purpose and achievement is to marry and impregnate Hinata Hyuga-hime-ojou-megami-sama, as all hinatatheists felt "as it should be"  :lmao:  :th_yeah:


Edited by Phantom_999, Today, 02:07 AM.

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#26913 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted Today, 02:01 AM

Here a question for everyone; what is the bases for Naruto and Sasuke rivalry, and friendship?

A Shonen anime checklist.


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#26914 RulesofNature

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Posted Today, 02:29 AM


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