64 replies to this topic

[Jenskott]

 

Bambi, Peter Pan, Alice in wonderland ...are...not...love stories, lmao

the topic says "cliche pairing"

 

Your post says "Disney movies". Nowhere you specified "Disney movies with a love story".

 

And that "lmao" is a bit rude, honestly.

[Khaleesi]

 

Your post says "Disney movies". Nowhere you specified "Disney movies with a love story".

 

And that "lmao" is a bit rude, honestly.

>Topic: Cliche pairing

>What i said: Cliche in Disney movies: Prince mets Princess and after 2 days they are married. <-- implies pairing

 

well, that's how you take it. it's just a word. but if it bothers you, sorry, because it's without intention of...being rude?

Edited by theunburnt, 02 September 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[Jenskott]

Okay. thank you.

[Liu bie]

Cliche in Disney movies: Prince mets Princess and after 2 days they are married.

NH kind of relationship

No anymore in Frozen ends in boyfriend and girlfriend situation.

[Khaleesi]

No anymore in Frozen ends in boyfriend and girlfriend situation.

She likes the first prince. Then, he result to be a jerk. Finally, she gets the good guy, after 3 days of knowing him. Okay, they didn't married. But, 3 again before being boyfriend and girlfriend.

The only exception is Tangled. <3

They marry after a long time.

[rikakim94]

Is there any other cliches?

[Phantom_999]

childhood friend romance. the westermarck effect is non-existent in the works of fiction. Not that I mind it but it happens way too often that that I  have more occasions when I roll my eyes when I see it than not. Especially in harems  as far as anime goes. That said childhood friend romances are the best portrayed ones in my opinion, but I just wanted the thing about being childhood friends mean that you MUST be in love or have a onesided crush at least to be debunked more.

 

Plus the twice shy thing between a guy and a girl (again especially in a harem) when he or she has someone else. Specifically when  it is CLEAR as day that the author is not pairing them up but still the shy girl is first and foremost in the guys thoughts yet he can't grow a pair and confess to her nor is seemingly satisfied with his (usually) more outgoing or tsundere-ish girlfriend aka who the author intents to put him with until the end. Mean while the the shy girl is too wrapped up wallowing in self pity to do anything about it. Seriously why even make it a plot point? It's not going anywhere, and again the author is not  doing anything but continuing to yank the chain. Even if the author finds it cute I find it boring, frustrating, and overdone as with the childhood friend thing. It's the fact that the plot between those two is just stuck in phase one and the guy is stil going on about how he wants the shy girl when he has a great girlfriend already. but it is only that specific situation that I'm annoyed by rather than the actual concept.

 

@ the unburnt: But what I liked about "Frozen" is that t shows the love at first sight  thing can be a huge mistake and that  "romance" is not the only kind of true love there is.

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 September 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Khaleesi]

 

@ the unburnt: But what I liked about "Frozen" is that t shows the love at first sight  thing can be a huge mistake and that  "romance" is not the only kind of true love there is.

But they ruined it making her kiss instantly with the other one. He chooses him AFTER the first one rejected her

[Phantom_999]

Yeah true, but again they showed that romance is not the only kind of love there is. remember was Elsa that broke the curse not Kristoff. So while the movie follows the instantly in-love cliche broke the true love's kiss tradition at the same time.

[Khaleesi]

Yeah true, but again they showed that romance is not the only kind of love there is. remember was Elsa that broke the curse not Kristoff. So while the movie follows the instantly in-love cliche broke the true love's kiss tradition at the same time.

yeah, that's true. i didn't like frozen anyway :v

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I can't really think of a pairing that isn't a cliché in some way, because they've all been "done" and certain genres are more well known to follow certain clichés, like shounen seems pretty notorious for pairing tsunderes with the main hero.

 

As others have mentioned, it's all in how the cliché is handled. NaruSaku is cliché and I can't and wouldn't argue with anyone who says it is, but it is incorrect to say that it's a bad pairing because it's cliché. Poorly written and cliché do not go hand in hand. (While I don't think NaruSaku has been handled as well as it could have, my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with the pairing being unoriginal.)

 

Originality isn't was important and just because something's original or breaks the mold, doesn't necessarily mean it will be good or well-written. It's all in the execution and if the writer knows how to handle a clichéd pairing then they'll be able to make something that feels fresh and engaging to the reader. 

[Nate River]

@ the unburnt: But what I liked about "Frozen" is that t shows the love at first sight  thing can be a huge mistake and that  "romance" is not the only kind of true love there is.

It's hard for me to give the thumbs up to that because that point is demonstrated by one of the most baffling heal-face-turns I have ever come across.

[Phantom_999]

No argument there definitely. No my cup of tea about that face-heel-turn, and I'm not saying that It was one of my favorite movies or that it was amazing I just enjoyed the bond of sisters rather than romance.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

 

And I have several dozens more of examples of big-chested tsunderes. Not only that, but Sakura is NOT flat-chested. Kishimoto draws her like a B-cup, i. e., the breast size of an average woman (I can not talk about the other characters that you have cited because I do not know them). Being smaller than D-cup is not being flat.

 

I do not know where you got from the idea of what tsunderes are typically flat-chested but it is utterly and factually false.

It's not false, She sees herself as flat chested many times and also was called flat chested too.

And Kishimoto uses it as comedic factor.
 

 

About Tsunderes always being flat chested is that in some animes there's a trend with it all my examples posted that, generally before knowing the character is a tsundere we see her being flat chested first, Scarlet, Taiga and etc.. are examples of that i may have faultered in not expressing accordingly since Akame ga kill's leonie is a tsundere too, actually a fapbait.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 September 2014 - 11:20 PM.

[Iwantbuns]

I can't really think of a pairing that isn't a cliché in some way, because they've all been "done" and certain genres are more well known to follow certain clichés, like shounen seems pretty notorious for pairing tsunderes with the main hero.

 

As others have mentioned, it's all in how the cliché is handled. NaruSaku is cliché and I can't and wouldn't argue with anyone who says it is, but it is incorrect to say that it's a bad pairing because it's cliché. Poorly written and cliché do not go hand in hand. (While I don't think NaruSaku has been handled as well as it could have, my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with the pairing being unoriginal.)

 

Originality isn't was important and just because something's original or breaks the mold, doesn't necessarily mean it will be good or well-written. It's all in the execution and if the writer knows how to handle a clichéd pairing then they'll be able to make something that feels fresh and engaging to the reader. 

 

I agree. Every pairing or love story is cliche in its own way. But it doesn't mean the pairing is bad. I guess in the end it really depends on people's opinions. And (like you said) how the pairing is written.

Edited by Iwantbuns, 10 September 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Rabbit]

Cliche in Disney movies: Prince mets Princess and after 2 days they are married.

NH kind of relationship

 

Reminded me of Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Snow White. The classic Disney fairy tale movies. But at least Shang and Mulan developed their relationship for months. XD

[harry4e]

Come on nearly all pairing are Cliche nowadays, Childhood friends, Tsundere/Clueless friend, Nice unpopular but idiotic hero guy/Harem, Nice girl next door/buy from wrong part of town, Hime, heiress/ working class do gooder.

 

Everything is cliche I don't have an issue with that, my issue is when the pairing is forced no matter how it doesn't work, or in the case of multiple potential pairings, the first person the hero shows any interest in ends up as the leading lady, and all other girls who in most cases end up being more interesting and better suited for the MC end up as sidekicks that are completely ignored.

 

Also:  I don't really think charactors like Nami, Sakura, and Rukia are what you'd consider Tsundere, Tsunedere's generally show indifference and dislike for the person when their actual feelings are complete opposite to their word...classic example was shown with Kurama this past couple of weeks, he was happy to see Naruto but denied it, and was happy to be sealed within him again but again made it out because the sage asked him to, that's classic Tsundere, Now Nami, Sakura, and Rukia don't have problems showing they like a person, however they tend to be hard on their partner because they are usually idiots. I used to think Sakura and Nami were Tsunderes first as well, but I think it was someone on this site set me straight.

[Phantom_999]

Oh yeah, everything you read now is cliche, and that's not a bad thing in it's self. cliches can be a good thing, but it's the fact that people see it too often that may seem like they are complaining about it. Or they are complaining about it, but still the term "cliche" give the wrong impression at times

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 November 2014 - 12:52 AM.

[rikakim94]

Come on nearly all pairing are Cliche nowadays, Childhood friends, Tsundere/Clueless friend, Nice unpopular but idiotic hero guy/Harem, Nice girl next door/buy from wrong part of town, Hime, heiress/ working class do gooder.

 

Everything is cliche I don't have an issue with that, my issue is when the pairing is forced no matter how it doesn't work, or in the case of multiple potential pairings, the first person the hero shows any interest in ends up as the leading lady, and all other girls who in most cases end up being more interesting and better suited for the MC end up as sidekicks that are completely ignored.

 

Also:  I don't really think charactors like Nami, Sakura, and Rukia are what you'd consider Tsundere, Tsunedere's generally show indifference and dislike for the person when their actual feelings are complete opposite to their word...classic example was shown with Kurama this past couple of weeks, he was happy to see Naruto but denied it, and was happy to be sealed within him again but again made it out because the sage asked him to, that's classic Tsundere, Now Nami, Sakura, and Rukia don't have problems showing they like a person, however they tend to be hard on their partner because they are usually idiots. I used to think Sakura and Nami were Tsunderes first as well, but I think it was someone on this site set me straight.

 

Yeah but people mostly critique at least from my experience that only main guy main girl pairing is  too obivious/cliche meanwhile other pairs are not considered to be cliches. This is something im neutral about.   

 

Oh yeah, everything you read now is cliche, and that't not a bad thing in it's self. cliches can be a good thing,but it's the fact that people see it too often that may seem like they are complaining about it. Or they are complaining about it, but still the term "cliche" give the wrong impression at times

 

Yeah i see a lot of people mostly complaining about the main guy main girl to be obivious cliches meanwhile other pairing are not considered to be cliches. Which is something i can agree on on some parts but at the same time i can't because there are still cliches within that non main guy main girl cliches. Another thing that kinda bothers me is that if they see other pairings thats not main guy main girl happen they ship it not only because its canon but its not obivious pairing cliches. They seem to jump into that bandwagon even if that said non main guy main girl pairing seems pretty lacklustered in development. As long as they say there not too cliche or obvious its considered unique or refreshing pairing. 

[Jenskott]

 

 

It's not false,

 

...

 

You told that it is a cliche that tsundere are always flat-chested.

 

I cite many examples of buxom tsunderes.

 

You reply that it is not false. You do not explain why your statement is not false, though, and you ignore that: 1- given your wording, a single instance ot if happening would prove your statement false. And I cited way more than one; and 2- there are many, many buxom tsunderes.

 

Dark, your statement IS false. Factually false. There is no other way around it.

 

 

She sees herself as flat chested many times and also was called flat chested too.

And Kishimoto uses it as comedic factor.

 

First: Your point was about all tsunderes, not about Sakura, only.

 

Second: Seeing yourself like flat-chested, being called flat-chested and BEING flat-chested are different things. An anorexic girl sees herself like fat even though she is alarmingly thin.

 

Did you see the Akane Tendo pic in the former page? Her love interest calls her "flat-chested" all the time. Looking at the drawing, do you seriously think that she is flat-chested?

 

Sakura is not flat-chested. If you peruse the actual art you can see that she is a B-cup. That is average size.

 

Third: WHEN has Sakura seen herself like flat-chested? And WHEN she has been called flat-chested? I request that you provide pics because I can not think of one single time that it has happened in almost 700 chapters.

 

It should be easy finding those pages. Since it has happened many times -according you-, so surely finding proof will not be hard.

 

The only similar instance that I can remember is that special chapter that promoted the Road To Ninja movie. In that chapter she thinks that she would like that her breasts were so large as Hinata's (I found it annoying and offensive but that is another matter). However that scene does not show that she thinks that she is flat. It shows that she would that her breasts were so large Hinata. Wishing that your breasts are larger does not mean that you think that you are flat-chested.

 

Fourth: Please, show me those pages where Kishimoto treats Sakura like a laughingstock for being flat-chested. Because -again- I do not remember them.

 

 

 

About Tsunderes always being flat chested is that in some animes there's a trend with it all my examples posted that, generally before knowing the character is a tsundere we see her being flat chested first, Scarlet, Taiga and etc.. are examples of that i may have faultered in not expressing accordingly since Akame ga kill's leonie is a tsundere too, actually a fapbait.

 

First you tell that tsunderes are always flat-chested... and then you tell that it is a trend in SOME animes?

 

Yes, I am afraid that you expressed your point wrongly and it led to confussion.

 

I do not know any of those characters. I do not know what they look like. so I can not talk about them. But I have shown a larger number of buxom tsundere characters.

 

 

 

 I don't really think charactors like Nami, Sakura, and Rukia are what you'd consider Tsundere

 

Yes, they are.

 

 

 

Now Nami, Sakura, and Rukia don't have problems showing they like a person, however they tend to be hard on their partner because they are usually idiots.

 

That IS Tsundere behaviour.

 

Sayaka Yumi, Lum... All of them are archetypal examples of tsundere and ALL of them show that behaviour.

 

 

 

Yeah i see a lot of people mostly complaining about the main guy main girl to be obivious cliches meanwhile other pairing are not considered to be cliches. Which is something i can agree on on some parts but at the same time i can't because there are still cliches within that non main guy main girl cliches. Another thing that kinda bothers me is that if they see other pairings thats not main guy main girl happen they ship it not only because its canon but its not obivious pairing cliches. They seem to jump into that bandwagon even if that said non main guy main girl pairing seems pretty lacklustered in development. As long as they say there not too cliche or obvious its considered unique or refreshing pairing. 

 

Completely agreed. It is like when I met people hating the classic hero archetype. They hate it because it is "overused and boring", so they jump on other archetypes (the jerkass hero, the anti-hero)... without realizing that those archetypes are cliche and overused too, and they can be boring, too. But many people jumps in the bandwagon "Everyone call this character boring/bland/trite because it is a honest hero, so it MUST be true! I am going to call him those things too instead of forming my own opinions."

 

Like another member has said, it is very hard creating some original. It was hard several decades ago because manga/anime (let's focus on them) were newer and there were less series to draw ideas upon ("I want to create a giant robot manga like Astroboy or gigantor, but I do not want to rip them off, so what can I do? I have an idea! The main character will control this robot from INSIDE!" "I want to make a manga for little girls, but what would be a good story? I know! That American show called "Bewitched" has given me an idea! She will be a witch! A magical girl!"), so creators had to come up with new ideas or seek inspiration in movies, literature... (you would not believe how much inspiration manga and anime have got from American comic-books, animation, tv-shows, literature...). Now it is hard because all fresh ideas no longer are fresh.

 

However, trying to be original and make something different does not mean that it will be automatically good.

Edited by Jenskott, 20 September 2014 - 04:38 PM.